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View Full Version : Hmmm, something FISHY about my Dora's MGs



Fish6891
11-06-2004, 07:44 AM
Why is it that a spitfire's two 50cals are so much more trenchant than the Doras nose mounted 13mm MGs? Why is the same true when juxtaposing the spitfire's two 20mm with the Dora's two 20mm? Should their firepower not be congruous? I notice that just a shot or two from hispanos is at times enough to rend and opponent asunder, whilst it takes twice the same opponents weight in MG fire to do them same.
I know this question probably has a simple answer to it, but you must remember that I am quite dim, being a Fish and all(Woe is me), so please, be sure to take THAT into consideration BEFORE you judge me!
Do not misinterpret this post, I do not have steam shooting out of my ears, I do not want to bomb Oleg's home, the sim is great and the Dora is great, its just something I've noticed and was wondering about. If its suppose to be that way I'd just like to know why, and if its undermodelled so be it, hopefully it'll be patched but if not one must adapt.
Also, what gun convergence do you experts use for the Dora, I think Hunde uses 500, Gunslinger 250, not sure about Zen. I'm trying to figure out right now whether 250m or 500m is more effective. I love the way the rounds fly at 500m convergence but I'm paranoid of losing a significant punch.
Please, elucidate these complications for this feeble-minded Fish.

Regards,
The Flying Fish

Aaron_GT
11-06-2004, 08:00 AM
Firstly the 190D has 2 13mm MGs, not 15mm, and the MG131 fires a lighter projectile with much less kinetic energy than the M2 .50. The M2 .50 is more powerful. In terms of gun efficiency it is another matter as the MG131 itself weighs a lot less, but in the terms you are looking at it, pure destructive power, the M2 .50 is superior when firing ball ammunition.

Jaws2002
11-06-2004, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Firstly the 190D has 2 13mm MGs, not 15mm, and the MG131 fires a lighter projectile with much less kinetic energy than the M2 .50. The M2 .50 is more powerful. In terms of gun efficiency it is another matter as the MG131 itself weighs a lot less, but in the terms you are looking at it, pure destructive power, the M2 .50 is superior when firing ball ammunition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Where did you get the 15mm from. I did not see 15mm in his post. the MG131 has 13mm and the MG151 is 20mm on dora. Just like the Spitrire: 2x20mm and 2x 12.7mm.
I have no problem with the 13mm myself but the 20mm on the Dora is ridiculous. I don't think that to shoot down a fighter you need 30 canon shells at 100m. The MG151/20 was not as powerful as the Hispano in kinetic energy but the explosive power of the minegeschoss almost made up for that.
The huge difference in power in this game is plain silly.

LStarosta
11-06-2004, 09:28 AM
Yeah, I don't wanna cry "Pork" but I'm a bit disappointed with the power of the MG151/20 compared with what it was in FB 1.2. It sure was a monster back then. It's still an alright gun, it has agreeable and straightforward (no pun intended) ballistics which make it relatively simple to lead. It's just sometimes a little disappointing especially in the Fw190 where often the only shot you'll ever get is some high angle deflection shot or a snapshot. I've found that if you can get rounds right onto a Mustang's or even a Jug's engine from below, you can stop the prop quite easily. It's just one of those weapons that make the Fw190 what it is; a difficult but rewarding airplane.

VW-IceFire
11-06-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Why is it that a spitfire's two 50cals are so much more trenchant than the Doras nose mounted 13mm MGs? Why is the same true when juxtaposing the spitfire's two 20mm with the Dora's two 20mm? Should their firepower not be congruous? I notice that just a shot or two from hispanos is at times enough to rend and opponent asunder, whilst it takes twice the same opponents weight in MG fire to do them same.
I know this question probably has a simple answer to it, but you must remember that I am quite dim, being a Fish and all(Woe is me), so please, be sure to take THAT into consideration BEFORE you judge me!
Do not misinterpret this post, I do not have steam shooting out of my ears, I do not want to bomb Oleg's home, the sim is great and the Dora is great, its just something I've noticed and was wondering about. If its suppose to be that way I'd just like to know why, and if its undermodelled so be it, hopefully it'll be patched but if not one must adapt.
Also, what gun convergence do you experts use for the Dora, I think Hunde uses 500, Gunslinger 250, not sure about Zen. I'm trying to figure out right now whether 250m or 500m is more effective. I love the way the rounds fly at 500m convergence but I'm paranoid of losing a significant punch.
Please, elucidate these complications for this feeble-minded Fish.

Regards,
The Flying Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As mentioned by other posters...the Dora's MG's aren't as powerful as some of the other heavy machine guns around...but they are more efficient with weight considerations. A batter of 6 would do a nice job but thats what 20mm cannons are for.

As for the MG151/20 there's a couple of things afoot here:

1) The Dora has only the inboard cannons (Antons have outboard cannons too) and you'll notice that they actually do fire through the propeller. So they are sycnronized. Thats going to cause a slight to modest reduction in something. I believe the MG151/20 was good at being syncronized so it only lost a bit of its muzzle velocity but kept refire rate high. The Spitfire's never had a syncronized gun...they were always mounted away from the spinner. So you don't have to worry about making sure the guns don't chew up your propeller.

2) The MG151/20 seems for some reason to be weaker than it should be. Not in all cases...a few users have noticed the Bf-109's outboard gun pods (optional) do more damage than the center gun or the sycnronized guns on the FW190. There may be an error or a bug in relation to how hard the high explosive rounds hit. Because most of what the MG151/20 fires is high explosive in nature it seems to be most affected. Meanwhile, the Hispano, the ShVAK and others are a even mix between explosive and armor piercing.

I think that historically the Hispano, once the bugs were worked out by 1942...was the best 20mm cannon available. It was heavy and it had a long barrel but it was very effective. If you want reliability...I think the MG151/20 and the ShVAK are better contenders in that category.

NegativeGee
11-06-2004, 11:27 AM
The relative lack of potency of thw MG-151/20 has been discussed recently in some detail here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=1981019822)

With regard to the MG-131, what VW-IceFire said- it was basically a "lightweight" heavy machinegun and does not have quite the kick of the US/USSR equivalents. Some good reading at this (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html) website.

hobnail
11-06-2004, 02:24 PM
Definately read the entire site of Emmanuel Gustin linked above.

In fact, a popup box should come up saying "have you read 'The WWII Fighter Gun Debate' before posting here?" every time someone posts a thread like this.

Icefire, just a correction, synchronisation only impacts RoF and doesn't impact on mV. Estimates I have seen put the RoF of a synched MG151/20 as 600rpm, down from 750.

plumps_
11-06-2004, 04:21 PM
German MGs are almost useless as they don't use incendiary bullets -- at least in FB. Most other MGs in FB will be able to set other aircraft on fire, but the German ones won't. Not only the 13 mm but also the 7,92 mm MGs are equipped with AP and APT ammo only.

For an overview of all the weapons and ammo belt compositions in FB see this link (http://free-st.htnet.hr/dvd/Weapons.html).

Atomic_Marten
11-06-2004, 06:14 PM
I find nothing wrong with Dora's guns. I have managed to shoot down enemy a/c without much problems. When you give a good burst, I doubt that target a/c won't sustain significant damage. Problem is different combat approach with Spitfire and Dora. With Dora you are mainly limited to BnZ tactics, and Spitfire's tactics are somewhat wider. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So when you combine that with the fact that Spitfire's armament is a little more powerfull (that is doubtful tho - I'm not much a Spitfire driver so I can not say exactly how much more it's armament is powerful, or is it more powerfull at all - a lot of guys say that it is more powerfull, so I take their word http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), it is logical conclusion that Dora gunnery (mostly BnZ snapshots) is tougher than Spitfire's gunnery. That can be really frustrating online - you deal much damage to enemy a/c with BnZ tactic, you go for another pass, and realize that someone has just finished him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

What I want to point out as real problem is MG's muzzle flashes. But that is fixed in PF version.