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Sienikeitto
07-16-2004, 09:44 AM
1. Why doesn't gunners of B17's die? I shoot and shoot but they keep shooting.

2. How to destroy B17 easily?

Sienikeitto
07-16-2004, 09:44 AM
1. Why doesn't gunners of B17's die? I shoot and shoot but they keep shooting.

2. How to destroy B17 easily?

Steaky_361st
07-16-2004, 09:57 AM
1. Not sure, are you sure yur shooting at them? Might be a bug or the B17 might have been armored back there...Im really not sure...

2. Like any bomber of that sort, never attack from the direct rear of the plane. Dont sit on its tail cause yur in a hotspot for a large number of defensive weapons. You can always get an altitude advantage and swoop down and fire. aim for the wings near the engines where the fuel tanks are. Sometimes if you can set them ablaze the tank will explode, shearing off the wing...

Steaky

actionhank1786
07-16-2004, 10:20 AM
Steaky's right on with his tip. And as for the tail gunner dying, i'm not sure, thinking back i can't really remember whether i've killed the gunner myself or not...
But another tactic, that the Luftwaffe loved, was the head on attack, fly out in front of the formation, turn and dive on them, and fire into the cockpit. You should be able to take them out with too much trouble this way. But lining up a head on shot can be difficult because of the speed
Good luck

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horseback
07-16-2004, 11:14 AM
AI gunners in general are almost impossible to kill. I just got killed in a campaign mission by a side gunner in a burning Li-2 from almost 700m away.

You can tear the hell out of the fuselage where he supposedly is, but unless your bullets hit him thru the window (and they better be silver & soaked overnight in Holy Water, just in case), and he'll still hit your engine and cockpit from a quarter mile away.

It's infuriating at times.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2004, 11:28 AM
Did fighters in R\L ever try just shooting at the gunner positions of bombers to kill just the gunners? Did they ever say, "Boys, aim for the gunner postions first?"

I don`t think so. Why? Because it was too difficult and probably took more time and effort than it was worth.


They would shoot at the engines, the wings, the superstructure, the cockpit area. The easier larger areas.


If you find you cannot aim and kill gunners on demand, and find it`s easier to attack the engine, wings, superstructure, then this is probably realistic.

I never conscously aim for gunners unless my site takes me that way. Sometimes I get the gunner, but even so I always act as if I haven`t.

SeaFireLIV...

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faustnik
07-16-2004, 11:39 AM
They sure did Seafire. Killing the rear gunner was common practice.

Gunners in FB take 2 hits to kill. Try using 'arcade' mode to verify this. They are tough!

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JG52Uther
07-16-2004, 11:55 AM
Yep i'm with Faustnik on this one .common tactic to kill the gunner in the first attack! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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warweapon2
07-16-2004, 12:02 PM
Another good way to take them out is by straffing from wing-tip to wing-tip... The only problem is the top turret and one of the waste gunners might take a few pot shots at you.

This works VERY well in the Me-262.

jugent
07-16-2004, 12:47 PM
They are made of Delta-wood. It happends that you get the message gunner down headshot but he keep on flying and shoots at you. This has happend with IL2 and B17 and the Gladiator pilot.

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2004, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Yep i'm with Faustnik on this one .common tactic to kill the gunner in the first attack! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
QUOTE]

Really? If that is so, then I stand corrected. back to the library for me then. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SeaFireLIV...

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Capt.LoneRanger
07-16-2004, 12:55 PM
Killing the gunners?

Don't think so - at least not on a B17!

With a StuKa or BF110 this might be very well possible and a suitable tactic, but attacking a B17 in formation to try to kill the gunners!? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

greets
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faustnik
07-16-2004, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


Really? If that is so, then I stand corrected. back to the library for me then. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SeaFireLIV...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading this more with Eastern fornt and early ETO LW pilot accounts than Reich defense against B-17s. Sitting behind a flight of B-17s trying to shoot gunners was probably a little rough. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Hurricane pilots were good at taking out LW bomber gunners too.

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Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 01:28 PM
The B-17 tain gunner was rather well protected. He sat behind armor glass and steele plates because thats were most attacks were comming from. Behind!

The belly gunner in a He-111 is also very very hard to kill. But the top gunner is open so its easy to pop him.

P.S. For B-17' go for the wings! Just outside the last engine. They burn like Betty's. Till 2.04.

JG52Uther
07-16-2004, 02:23 PM
not talking about B17's ,was more thinking along the lines of Heinkels ,Dorniers, SM79's etc. in the BoB (the real one)with mg's it was easier to kill the gunner, then go about downing the plane.I also read somewhere that it was quite effective morale wise to send a bomber home with half the crew dead!

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VOL_Hans
07-16-2004, 02:38 PM
Killing gunners might not always work as a tactic, but that is not an excuse for haveing them invulnerable!

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SeaFireLIV
07-16-2004, 02:46 PM
Well, he was referring to B17s, so i`m not so wrong after all. But oh no, I`m getting caught in the trap of believing everything I hear here... Not a good idea.

Back to the library...

JG52Uther
07-16-2004, 02:52 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif yep thats what i love about these forums, someone starts a thread and it goes off in all directions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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faustnik
07-16-2004, 02:54 PM
Don't believe that gunners are invulnerable. Use "arcade mode" and see for yourself. They are tough, but, can be killed.

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tttiger
07-16-2004, 02:55 PM
After two and a half years of flying this sim(constantly, it seems), I did something this week for the very first time: I killed a Stuka gunner.

I've chased at least 1,000 Stukas and never before have been able to kill that SOB but I finally got him.

Now, if I could just figure out how I did it...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ttt

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Atomic_Marten
07-16-2004, 03:35 PM
I've conducted some lttle experiments by my own http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

Several times:
I've put ~two P-39 T9 eggs in rear turret of B-17. But poor guy keep shooting and shooting. I believe he was blinded by explosions. I concluded that 'cause that folk missed me when I was on B-17 dead 6 on distance 0.10. And they do that every zillionth time. Guess this one was just bullheaded.

Few times:
I just think I got 'em. Not sure though cause others make short work on me. You know, they seem to have magnetic bullets and my cobra is made from fine metals.

No time:
I'm sure that I've actually killed rear gunner in B-17.

But don't get me wrong, you have to be proven clinically insane if u regularly go for gunners in this game. Example of this tactic: In real life Finnish fighter pilots were aim on Russian gunners regularly (source: Osprey Aviation Elite ?4 Lentolaivue 24) then engines.

_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-16-2004, 04:37 PM
Ive also read that the rear gunner of the B17 had armoured glass and steel plates. I have experimented with this to try to kill the rear gunner by going into QMB and selecting Invicibility and unlimited ammo. I have sprayed and sprayed the gunner from 6 oclock and rarly killed the gunner.....but getting the gunner from a side attack will kill him, only problem is gettin that shot to connect and not to mention its a waste of ammo just to go after the rear gunner and not worth it.

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Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 04:59 PM
Ya. When going up against a B-17, killing his rear gunner is maybe the last thing you want to target. Again, go for the wings. Burn well. Too well.

Atomic_Marten
07-16-2004, 06:09 PM
The problem with B-17 gunners is that they won't die http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif in fact it is the problem with all other bombers (but other seem to be slightly weaker). It seems that they are tougher than wings Gibbage, I agree with u on that and that makes no sense.

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2004, 06:12 PM
Attack from angle&gt; shoot engines&gt; bomber goes down&gt; gunner dead&gt; Job done&gt; NEXT!

FLAGRUM_3
07-16-2004, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Killing gunners might not always work as a tactic, but that is not an excuse for haveing them invulnerable!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I Agree somewhat, not all gunners are invincible the He111 top gunners seem to be the easiest. I have experimented and the rear gunners in B17 and most other positions are next to impossible to kill.As a tactic I couldn't say whether it was intensional but rear gunners were by far the worst casualty rates at least for Lancasters, which I thought was common knowledge.As for which direction to attack bombers from, I believe alot depended on the target. I keep hearing German tactics were to attack from the front but I have been told by several veterans and have seen gun cam footage of attacking from the rear, as a matter of fact there was a post here not too long ago with a link to a gun cam page and in it you see one clip with 190s attacking a formation of bombers from the rear...."go figure". Mind you I agree that attacking from the front is a better tactic in FB,but that just raises questions again about the rearward bomber gunner accuracy which has been discussed to death in this forum. IMHO

.

Atomic_Marten
07-16-2004, 07:30 PM
It seems I overrated 'em after all. With accurate (in the glass) MiG'sUB 12,7 short burst they die regularly. But this time I chck vulnerability off (that seems to be the main problem since they are so accurate). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

B-25 tail gunners are lot easier, but He111's top is one of the easiest what makes sense since he has no protection.