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OldPepper
06-07-2004, 12:18 PM
Is there a database out there that I could look up the most common or typical historical aircraft matchups?

For instance, in the early Career Capmpaign, I have to pilot an I-153 and I'm fighting Bf 109s and 110s. Obviously, I can guess the Bf 109s are of the earliest productions of 109s.

Is there a more accurate way to match planes up for a sortie in QMB or FMB aside for the year the planes were made?

Like which planes the Yak-3 fought mostly? Or the I-16 or the Hurrcaine MkII? I'll guess Bf 109s and Fw 190s, but how can you best match the Mark to its likely opponent?

I've tried googling a resource like this, but I'm afraid my phrasing in the search was inadequate.

Thanks for any tips!

OldPepper
06-07-2004, 12:18 PM
Is there a database out there that I could look up the most common or typical historical aircraft matchups?

For instance, in the early Career Capmpaign, I have to pilot an I-153 and I'm fighting Bf 109s and 110s. Obviously, I can guess the Bf 109s are of the earliest productions of 109s.

Is there a more accurate way to match planes up for a sortie in QMB or FMB aside for the year the planes were made?

Like which planes the Yak-3 fought mostly? Or the I-16 or the Hurrcaine MkII? I'll guess Bf 109s and Fw 190s, but how can you best match the Mark to its likely opponent?

I've tried googling a resource like this, but I'm afraid my phrasing in the search was inadequate.

Thanks for any tips!

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-07-2004, 12:45 PM
Most of this onfo is only available by doing some deep reference book research. Even then, you need to cross-reference much of it as many sources will conflict or have typographical errors that can mislead.

Sorry, I wish it were easier, but I consider it a labor of love to look up bits of interest like this...but that's just me.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

M0NS
06-07-2004, 12:58 PM
As a mission-builder I share your interest in historical matchups. My best bet is to do a search on each individual plane & look for the info you need - it's often hard. Another tricky thing is that it also depends on the scenario. The newest (& tested) versions were mostly used as frontline planes while the outdated ones were used as trainers, patrol or recon planes. So you could have a setup with 4 experienced 190A5s meeting 4 novice MkII Hurris... not quite fair but war has seldom been.

S!

Monson

"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

[This message was edited by M0NS on Mon June 07 2004 at 12:06 PM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
06-07-2004, 01:35 PM
I agree with T-Bolt here, it takes alot of time and research. I have alot to learn but that is the fun of it. That is why I like servers that match up planes historically as much as possible. It would be nice to have a sticky thread where info could be posted where planes saw their first action and such so we could better determine where planes belong.

As it is now FB has some oddities in plane/year designations: like Ta-152 in'44, P-51B in '42. etc. Actually P-51B's didn't score their first kill until two-weeks before the end of 1943 and only one squadron was even active with Mustangs IIRC. Usually you will see P-51B's and C's in MASS numbers on '43 servers but to me this is not very accurate as you would only be simulating the final two-weeks of the year and the number of planes would be very limited. The fact is that the P-51 flew much more against planes like the FW-190A-8 (not sure of the 109 variant but I would say G-6-late & G-14) than the A-5 and A-6 when it began to see significant action in early '44.

Still, early '44 would be a pretty rough time for blue.


This is just my opinion and some will take it the wrong way unfortunately.

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Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

horseback
06-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Hunde-

One Group (that's three squadrons), the 354th, I think, was operational in the razorback Mustang B/C in late '43, flying their first combat escorts in November of that year. They spent at least a couple of months 'working up' in the type in England prior to that time. The reason they weren't more active before year's end was the filthy weather that winter.

They were joined not long after by the first RAF Squadrons and a couple more 8th AF groups by the following March (the 4th FG being the first active combat group to convert from the P-47).

In any case, the first production models made their way out of the factory in the summer of 1943. The delay was getting them across the Atlantic in useful numbers & put back together in flying condition (fighter aircraft were often delivered as 'deck' cargo, requiring heavy weatherproofing - very hard to get the stuff off; the precursor to modern CD wrapping).

Getting the latest US aircraft to the front was not a simple matter of jumping in and flying due East. Mustangs made in Burbank or Ft Worth had to be shipped across country via rail to the major port where they would go on a freighter or Liberty ship, and go by convoy across the U-Boat infested North Atlantic. Then they would be unloaded and trucked to a depot where the English would unwrap and clean the component parts, and then put them back together, test fly them, and deliver them to the intended USAAF fields.

The Mustang was a '43 design; but it was almost a '44 delivery.

As Sun Tsu (and every other successful general) has said, historians study strategy and tactics; generals study logistics.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

BuzzU
06-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Take the P-51 away from 43, and they'll jump back in the La5FN. Your choice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
06-07-2004, 05:48 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Buzz. Still, I would rather fight La-5FN than P-51B in '43. The FW-190's advantages are shared with the Mustang. The 190 handles much better than La-5FN at high speed and has a higher dive limit. Also, FW-190 is faster than La-5FN up high, whereas the 190 is only marginally faster than the P-51B down low and it gets slower quickly as altitude increases. The P-51B has excellent high speed handling. The La pilot also has to remember to switch over supercharger and adjust fuel mixture I believe. In a 109 it may be different, but in a 190 I would rather face the La-5FN. Fighting an La-7 or P-51D, that might be a different story http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Actually, what I would like to see is more people flying the P-47 & P-38 in '43 servers, as is historically correct.

Agreed Horseback, the P-51B was a 43 design but to have it fly "historically", as per the title of the thread, it would belong on a '44 server IMO. Nice, informative post btw.

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Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Mon June 07 2004 at 06:19 PM.]

DONB3397
06-07-2004, 07:25 PM
A little web surfing will probably provide a chronology. From a series of bios by Mustang pilots, you can learn this:

Bud Anderson, 354th FG: "The first Merlin-engined Mustangs touched down at our base on December 19, 1943. According to my log, I took one up twice that day."

George Loving, 31st FG, Italy: "Toward the end of March (1944), along with three other pilots, I flew down to Algiers on a B-25 to pick up a flight of our brand new P-51Bs."

Loving had actually trained in the Mustang in late '43 before he left the U.S. for North Africa.

James Goodson said the 4th FG, flying T-bolts at Debden, received their Mustangs in February, 1944. Don (Horseback)Blakeslee, Goodson's CO, actually flew missions with the 354th and started pressuring Kepner for the aircraft.

He got them and 24 hours later the 4th flew their first mission. Hence the quote in horseback's sig.

Seems like horseback has it right. It would be unrealistic to match up the Merlin-engined Mustang in historical missions before early '44.

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A being breathing thoughtful breath,/A Traveller between life and death." -- Wordsworth

Zen--
06-07-2004, 07:58 PM
http://www.ww2.dk/

If you browse through that site, you will find an amazing amount of information related on the Luftwaffe planes...including squadrons, fighter types used, the year of those planes and even the bases they flew from.

I am still trying to find an allied link of similar detail, I recall seeing something of the kind a ways back for a project I was researching but either have lost the link or forgotten what it was called.

At least this ought to give you a better idea on the Luft side of things, then you can take what you know about allied timelines and get a pretty good idea of what matches to what. Also the FMB allows the mission builder to sort by year as mentioned...there are some discrepancies as Hunde pointed out, but it is a reasonable guide overall.


S~

-Zen-

Maj_Death
06-08-2004, 01:26 AM
It takes alot of research but here are some of the things I have found (going by memory):

1) P-51B is 1943 plane, P-51C and D are 1944
2) P-39N1 is mid 1943
3) Bf-110G2 is early 1943 to end of war
4) Most Bf-109's match their listed dates, but G14 comes before G10
5) Add one year to listed date for Spitfires
6) I-153 and I-16 appear in hordes up until 1943
7) The Yak-9's were the bread and butter VVS plane, Yak-1/3's were not as common
8) Yak-9M is main Yak varient in 1944, Yak-9U takes over in late 1944 to end of war
9) LaGG-3 series was most common La fighter up until late 1944
10) La-5FN is 1944 plane
11) Most Fw-190's match their listed dates very well
12) Ta-152H is 1945 plane
13) Ju-87D5 is 1943 plane
14) Ju-87's were very rare in 1944 onwards
15) IL-2's were very rare in 1941
16) Bf-109Z, Go-229, YP-80, Mig-3U, I-185 and Bi-1 are fantasy planes
17) Me-163B is a 1945 plane
18) Bf-109K4 is a 1945 plane
19) Me-262's really were a 1944 plane and they were not rare by 1945
20) Yak-9K, Ta-152H, Me-163 and He-162 were very rare

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

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Hunde_3.JG51
06-08-2004, 01:41 AM
Good info guys, I still think the P-51B belongs on '44 servers. Its a shame that all of the '43 servers look like this:

XXXX: P-51B
XXXX: P-51B
XXXX: P-51C
XXXX: 109G-6late
XXXX: P-51B
XXXX: FW-190A-6
XXXX: P-51B
XXXX: 109G-2
XXXX: P-51B

I wish there were more P-38's and P-47's on the '43 servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif, it would be much more historically accurate.

I heard someone else mention a long time ago that the P-39N is actually a '43 plane, and from my reading the Yak-1B should also be a '43 plane. I think the P-63C is actually a '45 plane as well (deliveries were first recieved in December of '44).

Zen, thanks for link.

Like I said, I would love to have a sticky so all of the server hosts could see how to properly make historical plane-sets.

http://www.militaryartshop.com/prints/bailey/warwolf.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Tue June 08 2004 at 01:01 AM.]

csThor
06-08-2004, 01:47 AM
Correction:

Most of Me-163 sorties were flown in last half of 1944. By 1945 there was hardly any fuel available and the surviving pilots were assigned to JV44/JG 7 to fly the Me 262.

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Dammerung
06-08-2004, 02:06 AM
The YP-80 is not a fantasy plane. They flew in 1944, although they never saw real combat. Unlucky(Or luckily) for the pilots. Had the war been stretched out another year, they would have been tested against German jets. AFAIK the I-185 Is the MiG-1(Sometimes it's refered to as an I-18, just as the I-153 is sometimes referred to as the I-15. Would make sense as the MiG-3 is the I-200). Me-262A-2a was the standard bomber by 1945, and near the end of the war the Ta-152 was only used in runway cover. Me-262s were very common, but mostly were strafed on the ground. 162s were VERY rare, and there were 2 horten 229s, one crashed in a test flight. IL-2s were exstensively used throughout the war, and were sitting ducks due to their low altitude.(Erich Hartmann shot down over 60 various IL-2s by 45. While I'm talking about Hartmann, he also bagged 70+ La-5s.) Most of the dates are on target, but there will be discrepancies always...

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

Franzen
06-08-2004, 02:56 AM
When I put together something in QMB I always give the allied plane a 1 or 2 year advantage when possible. I feel it's as close to accurate without having to lose my flying time to research. Maybe my method is wrong but it works for me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

LEXX_Luthor
06-08-2004, 04:55 AM
OldPepper:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have to pilot an I-153 and I'm fighting Bf 109s and 110s. Obviously, I can guess the Bf 109s are of the earliest productions of 109s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Bertha" or "B" versions from 1937? I don't think so. Not even Emails. In 1941 Russia that you are probably campaigning, most Fb109 fighters at that time were the Females not the Emails (or F not E versions).

No, the internet or book research is never hard if you love reading about your planes you can use in your sim. When you google, use the "-" symbol like this...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bf-109 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that's all you have to do. You may have to wade through dozens of sites. Use Mozzilla browser cos you will get lots of pop~ups. If you use IE then avoid the "tripod" websites and a few others I forgot but I recognize not to click or you get loads of pop~ups or even get infected--download the mozilla browser here http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/



In case your campaign dumps you into MiG~3, go here, largest MiG~3 (and only) website on the internet...

---&gt; http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/

Don't lose that link, save it, cos its buried really deep inside the hobbyvista.com website.


If you see any website that says I~185 is MiG~1, close that window now and don't open anymore. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

If you see any website that refers to I~153 as I~15, close that window now and don't open anymore. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif



__________________
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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ASM 1
06-08-2004, 05:10 AM
Emails?
Females ?
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif
I thought the 109 Designations were as follows. Dont take this the wrong way, am not mocking your English http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif :-

A - Anton
B - Bertha
C - Clara
D - Dora
E - Emil
F - Friedrich/Franz
G - Gustav
K - Kurfurst
H - ?
T - dont know
Z - Zwilling

B, C and D variants saw service in the spanish civil war - '36 - '39 so did the early E's. There were some D's still around for the BOB.

AFAIK

S!

Andrew

http://www.screenshotart.com/uploads/post-25-10866701230.jpg

Franzen
06-08-2004, 05:21 AM
Hey Lexx Luther, great link, thx. Lots of nice pics and info. Wish I could buy you a beer. BTW, what part of the rock do you live on?

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
06-08-2004, 05:47 AM
Lexx, do you have a good link for 109 technical drawings? I wanna build a large scale model of a G2 but haven't been able to locate some really good scale fuselage rib drawings. I'm too fussy. I also need color fotos of some 109 engines for a 1:24 scale G2 I'm currently building.

Fritz Franzen

F19_Ob
06-08-2004, 08:33 AM
109 walkarounds
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

enginestuff
http://mezek.valka.cz/

other
http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html

guns n cannons
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgguns.htm

a few

Franzen
06-08-2004, 10:20 AM
Thx F19_Ob, these look like good sights to get some info. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Especially the Czech site. S!

Fritz Franzen

Dash_C.
06-08-2004, 10:42 AM
The way I sometimes achieve historical matchups in FMB missions is by looking at the leading aces in the group and examining the number and types of planes destroyed.

BuzzU
06-08-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:
It takes alot of research but here are some of the things I have found (going by memory):

1) P-51B is 1943 plane, P-51C and D are 1944
2) P-39N1 is mid 1943
3) Bf-110G2 is early 1943 to end of war
4) Most Bf-109's match their listed dates, but G14 comes before G10
5) Add one year to listed date for Spitfires
6) I-153 and I-16 appear in hordes up until 1943
7) The Yak-9's were the bread and butter VVS plane, Yak-1/3's were not as common
8) Yak-9M is main Yak varient in 1944, Yak-9U takes over in late 1944 to end of war
9) LaGG-3 series was most common La fighter up until late 1944
10) La-5FN is 1944 plane
11) Most Fw-190's match their listed dates very well
12) Ta-152H is 1945 plane
13) Ju-87D5 is 1943 plane
14) Ju-87's were very rare in 1944 onwards
15) IL-2's were very rare in 1941
16) Bf-109Z, Go-229, YP-80, Mig-3U, I-185 and Bi-1 are fantasy planes
17) Me-163B is a 1945 plane
18) Bf-109K4 is a 1945 plane
19) Me-262's really were a 1944 plane and they were not rare by 1945
20) Yak-9K, Ta-152H, Me-163 and He-162 were very rare

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them athttp://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Skulls/Skull-06.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with the Yak 1/3 not being common.

The La5FN is a 43 plane. Maybe overmodeled, but still a 43 plane.

The Mig 3U is not a fantasy plane. Prototype? Yes, but it saw combat. It's not fantasy like the 109Z.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-22.jpg

csThor
06-08-2004, 11:51 AM
Disclaimer: I have no data to back that up. All that follows is from memory.

Buzz - AFAIR there was a discussion that the performance of "our" La-5FN corresponds with the upgraded Model 1944, not the initial batch. Additionally I remember a rather lengthy discussion on SimHQ about the true numbers of La-5FN produced before 1944 (AFAIR LA-5F was far more numerous).

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BuzzU
06-08-2004, 12:51 PM
I remember, but was never convinced.

The La5FN is a 43 plane though, and just because Oleg gave it too much performance doesn't make it a 44 plane.

Didn't he pretty much do that with all the Russian planes?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-22.jpg

Maj_Death
06-08-2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I don't agree with the Yak 1/3 not being common.

The La5FN is a 43 plane. Maybe overmodeled, but still a 43 plane.

The Mig 3U is not a fantasy plane. Prototype? Yes, but it saw combat. It's not fantasy like the 109Z.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said the Yak-1/3 wasn't as common as the Yak-9 series. It was still standard issue stuff though. Perhaps I should have explained a little better.

The modeled La-5FN is a 1944. If you want to make the arguement that the La-5FN is a 1943 plane because a lower grade "La-5FN" was availible then I will make the claim that the Me-262A1 is a 1943 fighter.

Only 6 Mig-3U prototypes were built. Yes they flew and they had an impressive combat record but with only 6 built you can't really call it operational. FYI, around 50 Bi-1's were built but only a few flew. It is not as fictional as the Bf-109Z, but no more realistic than the Go-229 or YP-80.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
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OldPepper
06-08-2004, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dash_C.:
The way I sometimes achieve historical matchups in FMB missions is by looking at the leading aces in the group and examining the number and types of planes destroyed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good idea, actually! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And downing 109s with I-153s of the same era is doable as long as the AI 109s stay and fight, the I-15(3) does fairly well!

At this point, I'm using the I2-FB campaigns to sort likely fighter matchups. At this point, I'm mostly interested in the major arms race early in WW2 when many older designs were religated to search missions. Pokey planes like I15 and I16 are pretty fun (and frustrating) as a novice in campaign.

Hunde_3.JG51
06-08-2004, 06:23 PM
A few things about Mig-3U from memory. The proposal was put forth in '42 but someone posted a link awhile back to a Mig-3 website where it stated the Mig-3U did not fly operationally until 1943. Also, there is very little known about the Mig-3U, even Oleg stated this himself a long time ago, so the FM is based more on estimations than flight test data. Also, yes the Mig-3U saw combat but if I read correctly it was used in an area where it engaged very high-flying recon planes. So it may have had an impressive combat record, but from what I read it was not fighting in fighter vs. fighter combat.

If someone has the link, please post it again.

http://www.militaryartshop.com/prints/bailey/warwolf.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

LEXX_Luthor
06-08-2004, 08:30 PM
MiG~3U page ---&gt; http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/I-230.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On February 26, 1943 the OKB was charged to develop an improved MiG-3 for the PVO, with the following requirements:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________
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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Hunde_3.JG51
06-09-2004, 12:41 AM
Thanks Lexx, I thought it was you.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Not only is the Mig-3U in FB listed as '42 when it should be '43, it got a nice boost at sea-level as well apparently.

Nice site, thanks again.

http://www.militaryartshop.com/prints/bailey/warwolf.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Maj_Death
06-09-2004, 01:26 AM
According to that the regular Mig-3's are also way too fast. The MiG-3ud goes over 500km/h in AEP, that site lists it as only going 466km/h.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
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masamainio
06-09-2004, 04:40 AM
I use this list when building missions. These are Finnish fighter versus fighter victories so those types are sure to have met in air. I still have to check dates.


Brewster: I-15bis, I-153, I-16, Mig-1, Mig-3, Hurricane, Spitfire, Tomahawk, LaGG-3, LaG-5, Yak-1, La-5, Yak-7

Me 109: I-153, I-16, Mig-1, LaGG-3, LaG-5, La-5, Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9, Airacobra, Mustang, Lightning

Morane: I-15bis, I-153, I-16, Mig-1, Mig-3, Hurricane, LaGG-3, Tomahawk, La-5, Airacobra, Yak-1

Fiat G50: I-15bis, I-153, I-16, Hurricane, Spitfire

Curtiss Hawk: I-153, I-16, Mig-1, Mig-3, Yak-1, LaGG-3

Gladiator: I-15bis, I-16, I-153

Hurricane: I-153, I-152

I-153: I-153, I-16, Airacobra (29.7.1944!)

LaGG-3: LaGG-3


As you can see, it's not always about the fastest plane and biggest guns.......

http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/finland_rinkineva.htm

http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/images/i153_finland_1.jpg