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surlybirch
10-21-2005, 09:19 PM
My squad has been testing the ceiling altitude for loaded HE-111 H6's. Our testing shows that the service ceiling with 100 fuel and all bomb loads is 3300 meters.

The information I have collected says that the ceiling should be more than twice that number. Can this discrepancy be explained?

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he111h3.html

Please see this page for additional information.

BaldieJr
10-21-2005, 09:21 PM
Yeah man. You can't get high in an he-111.

p1ngu666
10-21-2005, 09:54 PM
service ceiling might not be with bombload...

FritzGryphon
10-21-2005, 09:58 PM
That is weird. I had no problems with it before.

I tried 4xSC500. Did an airstart at 6000m, and actually started descending at full power. Yes, I remembered to shift gears.

WWSensei
10-21-2005, 10:37 PM
Haven't tried with 4.0.2 yet but in 4.0.1 several of us routinely climbed to 8000 meters with the 4x500 bombload H6 with 25% to 50% fuel. If we took the 2000kg bombs we had to struggle to get to 7000...

This took place in the Clash Of Titans III online war, Dieppe Raid campaign. Was a thing of beauty to see 7-9 He111s in formation putting fire and steel on target!

WWSensei
10-21-2005, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
That is weird. I had no problems with it before.

I tried 4xSC500. Did an airstart at 6000m, and actually started descending at full power. Yes, I remembered to shift gears.

At 6000 meters you not only have to go to Stage 2 supercharger but you also have to lower the fuel misture to 60% or you will flood the engine and lose power.

FritzGryphon
10-21-2005, 10:51 PM
I remembered that too. The smoke is a dead giveaway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

HoneySeeker
10-22-2005, 05:16 AM
Yup. You can't get to Heaven in an He-One-Eleven.

flakwagen
10-22-2005, 05:20 AM
The HE-111 does turn into a real dog after hitting 4000m meters but I've never been unable to climb past 3300m.

JtD
10-22-2005, 05:55 AM
I can hardly keep it flying at 4000 coming down from above. But I carried 4 tons of bombs and 100% fuel.

3000-4000ish still seems too low.

(He-111 with maximum loadout is said to have 6600 meters. But maximum loadout in the same source is 2500kg.)

ImpStarDuece
10-22-2005, 06:13 AM
I can get to about 7,600m n the He-11H2 with 100% fuel and 30x 30kg bombs. Crimea map, noon, east-west run.

100% fuel and 2x 2000kg bombs I can get to about 4,050m. Can't get any higher than that though. You can pull about 10-12 degrees of climb and she will just keep sinking.

4000kg is a pretty big overload for a He-111, especially considering the fact that they are external. Struggled along at 3900m with them for a while and then dumped the bombload. Shot up to 6600m in no time.

Fillmore
10-22-2005, 08:12 AM
My memory may be off or thinking of a diifferent model. But as I recall the max loadout in game is way over RL in that the real plane had assymetric bombload, 1x2000kg + 1x500kg, while ingame you can have 2x2000kg which is 1500kg over RL. And furthermore the RL figure of 2500kg is itself an overload figure (like 1800kg on later Stukas).

surlybirch
10-22-2005, 10:33 AM
I understand the 2xSC2000 is a serious overload. But we also did the same testing with the 2xSD250 bombs and got exactly the same results with same fuel load. 3300 meters was the max with all loadouts, so something funny is going on.

SURLY

Kurfurst__
10-24-2005, 05:56 AM
Keep in mind that on 95% of WW2 bombers, when higher bombloads were carried, fuel amount was reduced to compensate. Hence why short-ranged, maximum bombload and such noted in the data for these planes. 100% fuel was almost never carried on a bombing mission.

There's a lot of fuel in a bomber, and it's a serious weight issue. Say roughly you save a ton of weight on the He111 with 50% fuel.

Jetbuff
10-24-2005, 07:05 AM
It's the fuel and the bomb-load. Just this Saturday, we loaded up 2x2000kg bombs + 50% fuel instead of our usual 25% and had our work cut out for us getting to 5000m. Usually, we get to 7000m with only 25%. 8000m+ with a lighter bomb-load as well like the 4x500.

H2 is usually better due to internal bomb-load (which is also lighter I think) but I haven't tried it in 4.02 so I cannot say definitively if it works or not.

p1ngu666
10-24-2005, 08:32 AM
4000kg is roughly 8000lb+, which is what u find on a lanc/halifax carried internaly (sometimes more sometimes less)

and yes, a bomber can takeoff with X amount of weight, so u balance bombs and fuel..

the really heavy load on the stuka, they hadto remove the rear gunner i read somewhere http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
10-24-2005, 08:32 AM
its also a mini nuke loadout aswell..

Danschnell
12-07-2005, 01:10 AM
Definately something wrong with He-111. It is underperforming.

I don't expect it to perform when carrying 2x2000kg though because no He-111 could carry that in real life, (even with fuel compensation) but underperformance is still very real when carrying believable loadouts too. Not quite as bad as what happened to the Komet, but still very bad.

WWSensei
12-07-2005, 06:39 AM
On the He-111 anything over 25% fuel is wasted weight. At 25% you get more than 2 hours flight time and can fly any map in the game end to end and then some.

KG26_Alpha
12-07-2005, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
On the He-111 anything over 25% fuel is wasted weight. At 25% you get more than 2 hours flight time and can fly any map in the game end to end and then some.

When did you try this then ?

Jetbuff
12-08-2005, 03:43 PM
Alpha, like Sensei said, we flew this in 4.01 on CoT and I have done it again in 4.02 without any visible change. Not only can you get to 8000m, (25% fuel + internal bomb loadout, only 6500 with external loadouts of H-6) on 25% fuel I regularly fly for 1 hour, suffer a fuel leak and still have 300Litres+ when I land. If I could take less than 25% I would!

p1ngu666
12-08-2005, 04:42 PM
if u fly higher up u should use less fuel, 60% is after all, half of the 120% we use at lower alts...

KG26_Oranje
12-09-2005, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Alpha, like Sensei said, we flew this in 4.01 on CoT and I have done it again in 4.02 without any visible change. Not only can you get to 8000m, (25% fuel + internal bomb loadout, only 6500 with external loadouts of H-6) on 25% fuel I regularly fly for 1 hour, suffer a fuel leak and still have 300Litres+ when I land. If I could take less than 25% I would!

Sentai speaks about 2 hours not 1 hour Jetbuff.
He111-H6 wiht 75% fuel and the 2x sc2000 bombs , is able to clim over 6000 meters alt.
Buht a empty He111-H2/H6 wiht only 25% fuel is NOT able to fly more than 1 1/2 hour.
If so than u forget to uncheak some settings lol.

WWSensei
12-09-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by KG26_Oranje:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Alpha, like Sensei said, we flew this in 4.01 on CoT and I have done it again in 4.02 without any visible change. Not only can you get to 8000m, (25% fuel + internal bomb loadout, only 6500 with external loadouts of H-6) on 25% fuel I regularly fly for 1 hour, suffer a fuel leak and still have 300Litres+ when I land. If I could take less than 25% I would!

Sentai speaks about 2 hours not 1 hour Jetbuff.
He111-H6 wiht 75% fuel and the 2x sc2000 bombs , is able to clim over 6000 meters alt.
Buht a empty He111-H2/H6 wiht only 25% fuel is NOT able to fly more than 1 1/2 hour.
If so than u forget to uncheak some settings lol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can't get more than 90 minutes out of 25% fuel on an empty H2 or H6 then you are not using the aircraft efficiently is some respect.

You don't need lowered settings to achieve.

In Clash of Titans I routinely flew 60 minute plus missions on 25% fuel with and without bombloads and landed with more than half of my fuel remaining. Toward the end we were routinely hitting from 8000 meters with all but the 2xSC2000 loadouts.

You can waste a significant amount of fuel if you don't trim up properly, adjust mixture as needed (if you wait until you see brown smoke to adjust instead of watching RPM then you proberly wasted a good ten minutes of fuel in about 4 minutes), or attempt to climb at too steep of an angle.

Good use of prop pitch and throttle settings can make a difference.

If you just roll out, keep pitch at 100% and throttle at 100% the whoel time while trying to keep a 15 AOA then yes, you won't reach alt and you will burn a lot of fuel. Once you get behind the hump of the power/performance curve of the bomber it can take a long while to recover.

That's just bad flying, not bad modeling.

Best performance altitude for the Heinkels is around 6000 meters. Offline in both H6 and H2 (using DCG) I have run 2 hour+ missions on 25% fuel with either 30x50kg or 2x2000 at 6000 meters easily with fuel to spare. If I cruise at that alt I'm usually at prop pitch of 70%, throttle at 80% and mixture of 60% to maintain a 300kph IAS.

KG26_Alpha
12-09-2005, 11:02 AM
Why make statements from v 4.01m? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Somethings strange then there's so many complaints about He111 performance since v4.02m, unless those disgruntled axis fighter pilots are all trying out the bombers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif since the patch.

Our squad use 50% fuel due to fuel losses/flak damage/fighter damage. 25% would just get us there in some missions carrying so many leaks.

I remember running out of fuel on a 45min mission with 50% v4.01m took bad flak damage left wing self sealed or ran out/low, rightwing was like a sieve till fuel was gone on finals.

You may want to recheck those fuel hours though since v4.02m

Jetbuff
12-09-2005, 12:22 PM
My comments were from 4.02... in fact, the sortie I was talking about where I had 300litres remaining was only just last Tuesday. H2 with 30xSC50 and 25% fuel, angels 6. I actually took the long way home and the mission lasted over an hour. The trick is not to get overanxious like Sensei said and climb only at 220kph IAS+. Get on the wrong side of the power curve and your fuel will run out and/or you will not top 4000m.

KG26_Alpha
12-10-2005, 11:40 AM
I think the point here is that the original post was "is this correct?" not "this is what I do with it".
You are clearly tailoring the He111 to suit your needs, but the fact remains from the original posters question is the FM anywhere near right.

From performance data shown its not IMHO.

Jetbuff
12-10-2005, 10:13 PM
We never disputed the real FM. We just said the quoted performance limitations in-game were incorrect based on our own experiences. It may still be not up to par with the real thing (or even uber) but the "evidence" presented was flawed.

Jumoschwanz
12-29-2005, 09:32 PM
This sim was originally made to show best the low altitude air battles on the eastern front. Nothing in it works right at high altitude, no plane in the sim has as good performance up high as it should.

I have had a lot of fun in the He-111 though, and have got it up high with full bomb loads, but it takes a lot of time to get there, and a bit of fiddling. It will not climb up high at a low speed like it will at low alt. I have to get the speed up and climb shallower the higher I go.
Yea watch the blower and fuel mixture settings, and run the prop pitch at 85 or 90 depending on your speed, I never run it at 100% pitch.
If I plan on getting the He111 up to 6-7000 meters on a bomb run, then I make sure I have an hour or more to do this and get back home.

I will go online and try and get it up to high alt with the big bomb load, and if I do it I will get a track of it for you ok?

Jumoschwanz

p1ngu666
12-30-2005, 12:29 AM
jumo, theres something decididly iffy about the he111.

ive only done brief tests, but the speed loss at sea level from the two 2000kg bombs is 10kph~, which is somewhat remarkable. thats the plus side, on the downside its some 60kph to slow going off il2compair, havent gotten round to findin out sea level top speed performance. i dont think the he111 is the only bomber/ground attack aircraft with some whack performance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

KG26_Alpha
12-30-2005, 03:17 AM
As most of the campaign mission we fly are obviously Axis, out of the hundreds of missions when we refly a He111 campaign mission we never hit the target altitudes anymore, its just plainly obvious to our pilots that the He111's are soo much slower to climb out alts than in previous patches, and im not talking about 6-7-8000m just to get to 3500m with sc2000 is a nightmare compared to v 4.01m even in v3.04m the Jumos' "breathed" better.

The H6 seems to have suffered more than the H2 because of the payloads maybe but to see these planes getting slower and slower performance is discouraging for us to say the least.

After re-reading this thread Its plain to see that using a He111 to "stealth" around a static objects map in an "online war", is fine if time permits, but using an active campaign with 20 squad pilots and moving targets alts and waypoints to keep to meet up with fighter escorts thats where Its so noticeable in not being able to meet old mission alts waypoints and targets due to the fact that its simply slower than before to alt.

Jetbuff
12-30-2005, 12:41 PM
After a few more flights in the H6 with 2xSC2000, yes it is decidedly worse the 4.01. You can still hit 6000m but it will take quite a bit longer to get there. Like I said from the beginning, it's not that we don't think it should be better, just make sure you present accurate numbers otherwise we'll have a fighter on our hands. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I would personally love to see the H6 climb to 6000m in under an hour so we can share that 8000 pounds-a-love a bit quicker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

KG26_Alpha
12-31-2005, 04:44 AM
Like the new Pe sieries fm attacking fighters with full loadouts now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jetbuff
12-31-2005, 10:41 AM
So, anyone have the actual H-2/H-6 performance numbers so we can test the in-game ones against them?

Jetbuff
12-31-2005, 12:16 PM
OK, did a little research. The real numbers vary by source (most likely due to the different variants which are rarely specified) so I used the commonest quoted numbers I found. I also assumed the tests were done with no loadout (highly unlikely otherwise due to the vast variation in types of loadout) and 100% fuel. I tested on the Crimea map using the H-2:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Parameter Real In-game
Speed at 0m 405kph 359kph
Speed at 4500m 415kph 373kph
Service ceiling* 6500m 8000m+
Climb to 4500m ~45mins ~55mins**</pre>
* I could not reach the service ceiling in-game due to time constraints - will attempt it later with air launch in QMB. Also sources do not indicate whether this service ceiling is with or without bombload.
** I had a great track of the climb that I wanted to review but it got porked and I'm not about to spend another hour climbing an empty Heinkel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Also, the RL data is most varied here, ranging from 55 minutes to 42 minutes.

BuzzardHead
12-31-2005, 01:42 PM
By the time you reach 6000 meters in the Hienkel,I,m sure some of that 100% fuel will be missing.

CadMan_99
12-31-2005, 04:23 PM
Scanned from "Warplanes of the Second World War" volume 9 by William Green MacDonald 1967

These pages are for the Jumo 211 powered H series

P128 shows details for the He-111 H16

Max speed
at Sea level 50% fuel no load out 227 mph 365 kph
at Sea level loaded 217 mph 349 kph
at 6560 ft 2000 m 50% fuel no load out 248 mph 400 kph
at 6560 ft 2000 m loaded 236 mph 380 kph
at 13120 ft 4000 m 50% fuel no load out 255 mph 410 kph
at 13120 ft 4000 m loaded 242 mph 389 kph
at 19685 ft 6000 m 50% fuel no load out 270 mph 434 kph
at 19685 ft 6000 m loaded 252 mph 406 kph

Service ceiling max load 21980 ft 6700 m
Service ceiling 50% fuel no load out 27890 ft 8500 m

time to height at max load
8.5 mins 6560 ft 2000 m
23.5 mins 13120 ft 4000 m
42 mins 19685 ft 6000 m


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p114.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p116.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p118.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p120.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p122.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p124.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p126.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p128.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p130.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p132.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/He-111/he111_p134.jpg

LostPigeon
12-31-2005, 08:51 PM
Posted Sun December 25 2005 13:43
I just performed some tests in game and these are my results
Map okinawa weather clear flew each test twice until engine quit from over heat. should be noted I used quik mission to get to my target alts I first selected 1000 meters then dove to 610 then selected 7500meters and dove to 7370 and 6020. I used no cockpit view as well as in cockpit and speed bar measuremnts thes results are the fastest speeds achieved from any method.

test 1
supercharger stage 1
alt 610 meters
fuel mix 120%
prop pitch 100%
fuel at test start 25%
loadout empty
radiatior closed
fly level engaged trimed to maintain alt.
speed 348 km/h

test 2
supercharger stage 2
alt 7370 meters
fuel mix 60% once 40%
prop pitch 100%
fuel at test start 25%
loadout empty
radiatior closed
fly level engaged trimed to maintain alt.
speed 364 km/h

test 3
supercharger stage 2
alt 6020 meters
fuel mix 60%
prop pitch 100%
fuel at test start 25%
loadout empty
radiatior closed
fly level engaged trimed to maintain alt.
speed 378 km/h

test 4
supercharger stage 2
alt 6020 meters
fuel mix 60%
prop pitch 75%
fuel at test start 25%
loadout empty
radiatior closed
fly level engaged trimed to maintain alt.
speed 343 km/h

LostPigeon
12-31-2005, 08:52 PM
I pulled this info from the avaiton fact file Aircraft of world war2.I truly enjoy flying the HE111,but think it is a bit like flying a bathtub lately ,slow to climb slow top speeds, hard to take off with full load of fuel and bombs..So I got currious as to why the germans would use it and did some research theses figures came directly out of book mentioned HE-111-16 top speed 435 km/h light load at 6000 meters service ceiling 8500 meters for operations on rough fields or heavy loads (He) used disposable rockets during takeoff. Now I am curriuos why HE has such poor performance in game are these figures wrong?? (not that it makes a difference I will still fly it) seems like in early versions plane was better did patch ruin this plane my maximum level speed is only around 320km/h with 25-5-% fuel and no bombs time to climb measures in hrs.

Jetbuff
01-01-2006, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by CadMan_99:
Scanned from "Warplanes of the Second World War" volume 9 by William Green MacDonald 1967

These pages are for the Jumo 211 powered H series

P128 shows details for the He-111 H16

Max speed
at Sea level 50% fuel no load out 227 mph 365 kph
at Sea level loaded 217 mph 349 kph
at 6560 ft 2000 m 50% fuel no load out 248 mph 400 kph
at 6560 ft 2000 m loaded 236 mph 380 kph
at 13120 ft 4000 m 50% fuel no load out 255 mph 410 kph
at 13120 ft 4000 m loaded 242 mph 389 kph
at 19685 ft 6000 m 50% fuel no load out 270 mph 434 kph
at 19685 ft 6000 m loaded 252 mph 406 kph

Service ceiling max load 21980 ft 6700 m
Service ceiling 50% fuel no load out 27890 ft 8500 m

time to height at max load
8.5 mins 6560 ft 2000 m
23.5 mins 13120 ft 4000 m
42 mins 19685 ft 6000 m
Thanks for the info CadMan. Mind if I save those scans?

I am not familiar with the H16. The H6 was supposedly the most commonly produced variant so it may be safer to assume that the numbers I got came from one and test the H6 instead of the H2. That said, there are many similarlities between these numbers and (including climb time to 6000m, service ceiling at max load and) the ones I cam across. The only one that stands out is a surprisingly low speed at low level which is not even close to any of the sources I encountered. (possibly unique to the H16?)

More testing will be required to prove it, but these are my tentative conclusions:

1. Both versions of the He-111 are a tad too slow at all altitudes. (30-50kph depending on altitude and version)

2. Climb to 6500m is a ~10 minutes too slow. I'm fuzzy on the numbers due to the track snaffu.

3. Both loaded and unloaded service ceilings for the H6 were surprisingly spot on in 4.01 if you assume max load to be 2x2000kg + 25% fuel. (6700 and 8500m, respectively) Haven't thoroughly tested them in 4.02 yet.

@Buzzardhead, yes I probably spent about 1 eighth of a tank to get there but how do you propose they tested it IRL? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

@LostPigeon, your numbers are very close to mine and reaffirm that I wasn't that far off to begin with inspite of only one run.

I wish I had more time to do these tests right away but I'll be a bit busy for the next few days.

Jetbuff
01-01-2006, 10:04 AM
PS: It would be IDEAL if we could get numbers with the quality that CadMan presented but that were specific to either the H2 or the H6 to minimize any assumptions made.

CadMan_99
01-01-2006, 03:45 PM
Rereading the scans, the 2 x 2000 kg is not a acceptable loadout and is possibily a game limitation.

The late H21 with even more powerful motors capable of 298 mph 479 kph and 32000 ft 9700 m only had a max load out of 6615 lb 3000 kg ie 1 x 2000 1 x 1000.

Therefore any testing should be with 2 x 1000 kg and 100% fuel as being closer to the H6 maximum of 1 x 2000 1 x 500 kg.
If there was any battlefield modifications to carry 2 x 2000 kg I don't have those details and it would have been for tactical low level use on the Russian front only as that is an overload situation.

All testing must be on the standard Crimea map for comparison purposes because of atmospheric differences between maps.

p1ngu666
01-01-2006, 10:59 PM
they used bombs upto 2500kg on the russian front. thats a single 2500kg bomb, btw http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

the 2x2000kg bombs, and also the 2000kg bomb on the stuka (heard they hadto remove the rear gunner for that loadout http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) are surly very very high overload loadouts...

Jetbuff
01-02-2006, 10:23 AM
Touch my 2x2000 and you die! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

On another note though, from those pages you presented CadMan it appears the H6 may have had an MGFF as the main forward firing armament. (primarily for shipping attacks though rarely effective) I'd sure welcome it though for defensive purposes.

KG26_Alpha
01-02-2006, 10:31 AM
Check nose gunner H2 H6 also a bug

H2 ammo is out after a few bursts.
H6 20mm ammo fires off centre.

But I divulge
Info is on the way regarding H6 climbout rates.

Re: oveload armament most aircraft took overload inc P47 with full loadout was regarded as overloaded, it wasnt an uncommon thing.

LostPigeon
01-02-2006, 09:08 PM
Regarding the overloading...I have seen photos of He using disposable rockets during takeoff for extreme loads.. not sure if this is even aplicable in game in the future but would answer some of the weight take off problems. also the same sorce I found this info in also staed that a lightly loaded HE-111 could achieve 435 km/h @ 6,000 meters. not sure what light load is I am asuming return trip after delivering bomb load to target. the sorce book for this info is from (avaiton fact file Aircraft of world war2) Also said service ceiling of 8,500 meters it was I believe model HE-111-16 not sure how this relates to in game plane H2 or H6. Maybee newer plane stats. I fully understand this is a game and as such there are some limitations to what can be achieved.. I enjoy flying the bobmers and will continue to do so. The main area of my concern is at the moment the fighters who just pull up behind me and sit... AAARRRGGGHHH... I have seen lots of footage and never saw a single plane just take up residence behind a bomber... Now I have killed many a pilot who has tried this tactic but I still take a good deal of damage usually turn ing around before bomb release of bailng out.. I would love to be able to punish those foolish flyers who use this lame tactic.. if only the damage could be a bit worse from directly behind a bomber to make these fools think twice before using this lame tactic again.. almost certain death would force pilots to use a better B n Z strategy as was used in the real deal. when your life was on the line no way would you put yourself in that tuff spot.. Any how just my thought. Thanks Oleg for great game I look forward to future defvelopments as well as BOB..

KG26_Alpha
01-03-2006, 04:51 AM
Rocket assisted take off is already moddled in IL2 series.
Me 321 has booster rockets that jettison after takeoff being towed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/Me321rocketassist.jpg

Would be nice to see more bomber variants but it just not going to happen unfortunately.

KG26_Oranje
01-05-2006, 03:31 PM
http://www.heinkelwerke.de/images/He111/He111A0China.jpg
He111A-0 China.

Heinkel He111B
Specification.- He111B-2.
Year.- 1935.
Crew.- Five (pilot, Observer, Radio operator/gunner, Engineer/Gunner , Gunner).
Power Plant.- Two Daimler-Benz DB 600ACG 12-cylinder , inverted Vee Liquid-Cooled engines
each developing 950 hp.
Dimensions.- span, 74 ft, 2 in. lenght, 57 ft 5 in. height, 14 ft 5 in. wing area, 942,92 sq ft.
Weights.- empty, 12,875 lb. Loaded maximum, 22,046 lb.
Performance.- Maximum speed, 186 m.p.h. at sea-level, cruising speed, 174 m.p.h. climb rate,
30 min to 14,765 ft. service ceiling, 22,966 ft.
Armament.- three 7.9 m/m MG15 machine guns on flexible mount in nose cone, open dorsal turret
and retractable dustbin, bomb load, 3307 lb, internally.


Heinkel He111P.

The heinkel He111p was generally similar to the 111H , the main difference being that it was fitted with
two Daimler-Benz DB 601 engines in place of the Junker Jumo 211 units.
Produktion was discontinued in favour of the H serie.

Specification.- He111P-4.
Year.- 1938.
Crew.- Five (pilot, Observer, Radio operator/gunner, Engineer/Gunner , Gunner).
Power Plant.- Two Daimler-Benz DB 601A-1 12-cylinder , Liquid-Cooled engines each developing 1100hp.
Dimensions.- span, 74 ft, 2 in. lenght, 53 ft 9 in. height, 13 ft 2 in. wing area, 942,92 sq ft.
Weights.- empty, 14,936 lb. Loaded maximum, 29,762 lb.
Performance.- Maximum speed, 225 m.p.h. at sea-level, cruising speed, 194 m.p.h. climb rate,
7 min to 3280 ft. service ceiling, 26,250 ft.
Armament.- six 7.9 m/m MG15 machine guns in nose cone on flexible mounting, in nose fixed,
in two beam windows and in open dorsal turret and ventral gondola, some aircraft also fitted with
one 7.9 m/m MG17 machine gun in tail cone, bomb load, 2204 lb, internally and 2204 lb,
externally on racks.

Heinkel HE111H.

He111.
Assembly plants : Rostock-Marienehe.
Components plants : Rostock-Marienehe and Rostock Works I and II.

The Heinkel He111H.
The He111 , originally evolved as a camouflaged civil transport in 1935, was in continous service
thoughout the war , and was used extensively as a bomber , torpedo-carrier , transport and
glider-tug.
The most widlely-used produktion serie was the 111H and the best known sub-type was the
H-6.
This differed little , except in armament and ohter minor details , from later variants , e.g.
H-10 , 14, 16, 18, 20 and 21.

Type.- Twin-engined Bomber and Torpedo-carrier.
Also used as a Transport, Glider-Tug or as a Flying-Bomb Carrier.
Wings.- Low wing cantilever monoplane in three portions comprising a rectangular
centre-section built integral with the fuselage and two tapering outer sections.
Structure of light metal consisting of two spars and the usual number of ribs.
The whole covered with a stressed skin of smooth duralumin sheet.
Ailerons on outer sections.
Hydraulically-operated slotted flaps in inner sections.
Ailerons droop when flaps are lowered.
Fuselage.- Oval section metal structure tapering to a point aft.
Structure consists of three main bulkheads , a number of secondary frames ,
interconnected by longerons and "U" section stringers , the whole covered with smooth metal
sheet.
Tail Unit.- Monoplane type.
All suraces elliptical.
Cantilever tail-plane and fin.
Trimming-tabs in movable surfaces.
Metal structure wiht smooth sheet covering.

General specs He111H
Landing gear.- Retractable type.
Each unit consists of two oleo legs and two backwardly sloping hinged members which,
when broken inwardly, raise the wheels aft into the tails of the engine nacelles.
Low-pressure wheels and Cannstadt brakes.
Power plant.- Two Junker Jumo 211F-2 twelve-cylinder inverted Vee liqued-cooled engines,
each rated at 1,300 h.p. at 3,810 m. (12,500 ft.) in nacelles at extremities of centre-section.
Junker Jumo 211F-2 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engines each developing 1350 hp.
take-off and emergency 1,340 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at sea-level,
1,350 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 1,120 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at sea-level,
1,060 h.p. at 2,400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at 17,000 ft. maximum cruising 910 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m.
at 1.15 ata, at sea-level, 920 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata, at 19,500 ft.
Junker Jumo 211P, take-off and emergency 1,500 hp. at 2.700 r.p.m. at 1.45 ata at sea-level,
1,410 h.p. at 2.700 r.p.m. at 1.45 ata at 14.100 ft.
climbing 1,300 h.p. at 2.500 r.p.m. at 1.32 ata. at sea-level,
1,280 h.p. at 2,500 r.p.m. at 1.32 ata. at 15,100 ft. maximum cruising 950 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m.
at 1.15 ata, at sea-level, 1,010 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata, at 17,000 ft.
Junker Jumo 211J, take-off and emergency 1,400 hp. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at sea-level,
1,410 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 1,200 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at sea-level,
1,200 h.p. at 2,400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at 16,500 ft. maximum cruising 950 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m.
at 1.15 ata, at sea-level, 1,000 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata, at 16,700 ft.
Junker Jumo 213A, take-off and emergency 1,776 hp. at 3.250 r.p.m. at sea-level,
1,600 h.p. at 3,250 r.p.m. at 18,000 ft.
climbing 1,600 h.p. at 3.000 r.p.m. at sea-level,
1,480 h.p. at 3,000 r.p.m. at 18,000 ft. maximum cruising 1,340 h.p. at 2,700 r.p.m.
at sea-level, 1,220 h.p. at 2,700 r.p.m. at 17,000 ft.
Take off power can be increased to 2,240 h.p. by using methanol/water injection.



Three-bladed VDM controllable-ptch full-feathering airscrews.
Four self-sealing fuel tanks, two inboard and two outboard of nacelles.
Total fuel capacity 940 lmp. gallons.
Accommodation.- Normal crew of five , three in nose compartment and two aft of wings.
Pilot on port side of unsymmetrical nose, which is entirely glazed wiht transparent panels.
Aloneside pilot is a tip-up seat for the navigator/bomb-aimer, who also operated the hand-operated
machine-gun in a spherical nose mounting offset to starboard.
Bihind pilot is the bomb compartment located between the wing-spars.
Passage between bomb cells leads to after cabin accommodating the radio-operator-gunner,
operating the upper and lower gun positions are armoured.
Armament.- Differed greatly according the sub-type.
The later He111s were armed wiht one 13 m/m. MG 131 in the nose , two 7.9 m/m. MG 81Z in the
lower ventral position firing forward ; one 13 m/m. MG 131 in the upper rear-firing position and
two 7.9 m/m. MG 81Z firing laterally , one on each side of the fuselage.
Bomb load.- Originally the He111 had only internal stowage within fusalage for a maximum
of eight 250 kg. (550 lb.) bombs suspended vertically.
Later , external stowage was provided for bombs of heavier calibre than 250kg. or for mines,
two torpedoes or one FZG 76 Flying-bomb.
The flying-bomb was carried offset to starboard.
Typical alternative bomb loads were :- One 1,800 kg. or one 2,500 kg. two torpedoes carried
on crutches under short centre-section roots, one on each side of centre-line.
Equipment.- Standard bomber radio equipment comprising long and blind-approach equipment.
D/F. loop aerial is housed beneath transparent cover over upper rear gunner.
Fixed aerial for lorenz blind-approach system mounted benath rear fuselage.
Equipment also generally includes an inflatable dinghy.

Specification.- Heinkel He111H-3
Weights.- Weight empty 19,130 lbs.
Power plant.- two Junker Jumo 211A-3 twelve-cylinder inverted Vee liqued-cooled engines,
each rated at 1,100 h.p.
take-off and emergency 950 hp. at 2.200 r.p.m. at 1.2 ata at sea-level, 1000 h.p. at 2.200 r.p.m.
at 1.2 ata at 17.000 ft. climbing 850 h.p. at 2.200 r.p.m. at 1.1 ata. at sea-level,
870 h.p. at 2,200 r.p.m. at 1.1 ata. at 17,000 ft.
Later H-3 serie got the Junker Jumo 211D-1
Performance.- Maximum speed 258 m.p.h. Range wiht maximum fuel 1,760 miles.
Armament.- 6x 7.92 m/m MG 15 machine-guns. and provision for two externally-mounted
PVC 1006 bomb racks.[for two SC1000 (1,000kg.) or one SC1800 (1,800kg.)].

Specification.- He111H-6.
Year.- 1939.
Crew.- Five (pilot, Observer, Radio operator/gunner, Engineer/Gunner , Gunner).
Power Plant.- Two Junker Jumo 211D-2 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engines each developing 1200 hp.
take-off and emergency 1,200 hp. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.35 ata at sea-level,
1,210 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.35 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 930 h.p. at 2.300 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata. at sea-level,
930 h.p. at 2,300 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata. at 16,500 ft. maximum cruising 790 h.p. at 2,100 r.p.m.
at 1.1 ata, at sea-level, 800 h.p. at 2,100 r.p.m. at 1.1 ata, at 14,700 ft.
Later H-6 serie:
Two Junker Jumo 211F-2 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engines each developing 1350 hp.
take-off and emergency 1,340 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at sea-level,
1,350 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 1,120 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at sea-level,
1,060 h.p. at 2,400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at 17,000 ft. maximum cruising 910 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m.
at 1.15 ata, at sea-level, 920 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata, at 19,500 ft.
Dimensions.- Span 74 ft , 3 in. (22,6 meter), Length 54 ft. 6 in. (16,6 m), Height 13 ft. 9 in.
(4,2 m), Wing aria 942 sq. ft. (87,6 sq. m.).
Weights.- Weight empty 17,000 lbs. (7,720 kg.) , Normal loaded weight 26,500 lbs. (12,030 kg.),
Maximum permissible overloaded weight 31,000 lbs. (14,075 kg.).
Performance.- Maximum speed 250 m.p.h. (400 km.h.) at 17,000 ft. ( 5,185 m.),
max speed 258mph (416 km.h.) at 19,680ft.
Clim to 17,000 ft (5.185 m.) 20 mins., Service ceiling 27,500 ft. (8,390 m.),
Range wiht maximum fuel 1,750 miles (2,800 km.).

Specification.- He111H-16.
Year.- 1943.
Crew.- Five (pilot, Observer, Radio operator/gunner, Engineer/Gunner , Gunner).
Power Plant.- Two Junker Jumo 211F-2 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engines each developing 1350 hp.
take-off and emergency 1,340 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at sea-level,
1,350 h.p. at 2.600 r.p.m. at 1.4 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 1,120 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at sea-level,
1,060 h.p. at 2,400 r.p.m. at 1.25 ata. at 17,000 ft. maximum cruising 910 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m.
at 1.15 ata, at sea-level, 920 h.p. at 2,250 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata, at 19,500 ft.
Dimensions.- span, 74 ft, 2 in. lenght, 53 ft 9 in. height, 13 ft 1 in. wing area, 931,07 sq ft.
Weights.- empty, 19,135 lb. Loaded maximum, 30,865 lb.
Performance.- Maximum speed, 227 m.p.h. at sea-level, cruising speed, 197 m.p.h. climb rate,
8,5 min to 6560 ft. service ceiling, 27,890 ft.
Armament.- One 20 m/m MG FF cannon in nose, one 13 m/m MG 131 Machine gun in
dorsal position, two 7.9 m/m MG81Z machine guns in rear ventral gondola ,
two 7.9 m/m MG15 or MG81Z machine guns in beam positions, the nose cannon could
also be replaced by a 7.9 m/m MG15 machine gun and the beam positions with twin 7.9 m/m MG81Z
Bomb load, 7165 lb, made up of varios bombs carried internally and on external racks.

Heinkel He111Z-1.

The He111Z was basically two He111H-6 airframes, each less one outer wing, joined together
outboard of a left and right engine by a length of wing which carried a fifth Jumo 211 engine.
The result was a five-engined aircraft wiht two-separate fuselages and tail-units.
The pilot sat in the port fuselage.
The intended function of the He111Z was that of a glider-tug(Z-1), although consideration was given
to using it as a bomber (Z-3), to carry four 1,800 kg. bombs ; as a reconnaissance aircraft (Z-2) wiht
two 264-gallon jettisonable fuel tanks ; or as an anti-shipping aircraft to carry four
Hs 293 radio-controlled glider bombs.
Dimensions.- Span 115 ft.6 in. (35,2 m.), Length 54 ft. 8in. (16,7 m.),
landing-gear track 32 ft. 10 in. (10 m.).
Take-off weight.- 62,500 lbs. (28,375 kg.).
Performance.- Maximum speed 298 m.p.h. (477 km.h.) at 16,000 ft (4,880 m.),
Range 1,180 miles (1,890 km.).

Heinkel He111A , B , C , D , E and F serie variants.

12 march 1935 He111V-1 first test flight.
He111A-0: Pre-produktion bomber variant , with BMW V engines.
Was rejected by the Luftwaffe.
10 bild and sold to China.
He111B-1:
B-2:
He111C-0: Airliner deliverd to DLH.
only 6 build.
He111D: Powerd by two 950 h.p. DB 600Ga engines.
Few were built, as a shortage of DB 600s necessitated a produktion switch to the Junker Jumo-powered He111E.
He111E:Powerd by two 1,000 h.p. Junker Jumo 211.
He111F: Uprated Jumo 211s plus new wing of simpler construction and with straight instead of curved taper.
Last 111 variant wiht stepped nose.

He111P and H serie variants.

He111P-0 : Pre-production.
Two 1,150 h.p. DB 601Aa and new ventral gondola-type gun position replace the dustbin of
earlier models.
P-1: First produktion version.
Three 7.9 m/m MG 15 machine guns.
P-2: FuG 10 radio instead of FuG III.
P-3: Dual-control trainer.
P-4: Increase armour, three extra MG 15 guns and provision for two externally-mounted PVC 1006
bomb racks.
P-6: Final produktion model.
Two 1,175 h.p. DB601N engines.
He111H-0: Pre-produktion.
Two 1,010 h.p. Junker Jumo 211A.
H-1: Initial produktion model.
Generally similar to H-0.
H-2 No info in jane`s.
H-3: Two 1,100 h.p. Junker Jumo 211A-3 and same Armament as P-4.
H-4: Two external PVC 1006 racks for two 1,000 kg (2,205 lb.) SC1000 bombs or one
1,800 kg. (3,968 lb.) SC1800 bomb.
First H-4 had 1,100 Jumo 211D engines but later examples had 1,400 hp Jumo 211F-1.
Joined Kampfgeschwader during Battle of Britain like H-5 (below).
H-5: Similar to H-4 but had increased fuel capacity and carried bomb load entirely external.
H-6: First variant to carry torpedoes operationally.
Two 765 kg. (1686 lb.) LT F5b, Six MG15 machine guns and one forward-firing 20 m/m MG FF cannon.
Some a/c had fixed MG 17 in tail cone, others had remotely-operated grenade launcher in same position.
Two Jumo 211F-1.
Introduced into production at end of 1940, H-6 was most widely used of all He111 versions
and was also employed as an ordinary bomber.
H-7 and H-9: Boht basically H-6 a/c with minor changes of equipment.
H-8: Modification of H-3 or H-5 with immense barrage balloon fender carried forward of nose and engines.
Survivors of 30 or so a/c converted eventually stripped of fender and modified as glider tugs
under designation He111H-8/R2.
H-10: Simular to H-6, with balloon-cable-cutter in wing leading edges and an MG FF cannon
in ventral gondola.
H-11: Two MG 81 machine guns in ventral gondola, dorsal gun position fully enclosed and provision
made to carry five 250 kg. (551 lb.) bombs externally.
H-11/R1: Provision for two pairs of MG 81 guns firing from beam hatches in fuselage.
H-11R/2: Glider tug.
H-12: Specially equipped to carry two Henschel 293A anti-shipping missiles, but never used operationally.
H-14: Pathfinder with crew of six and FuG Samos and other specialised radio equipment.
H-16: Two 1,350 hp. Jumo 211F-2 and carry extensive defensive armament, including MG 81Z
twin-gun installation, 13 m/m MG 131 weapon and MG FF cannon.
H-16/R1: Had MG 131 gun in power-operated dorsal turret.
H-16/R2: Glider-tug.
H-16/R3: Pathfinder.
H-18: Specialised pathfinder, being in effect a combination of H-14 and H-16/R3.
H-20/R1: Equipped to carry 16 paratroops.
H-20/R2: Freighter and glider-tug.
H-20/R3: Night bomber with racks for a 2,000 kg. (4,410 lb.) bomb load.
H-20/R4: Equipped to carry a load of twenty 50 kg (110 lb.) SC 50 bombs.
H-22: Designation covering conversion of H-6 and H-16 a/c to carry a Fieseler 103 missile (V-1) under either wing.
H-23: Final production model of H-series.
Built as a paratroop transport but often used as a bomber.
Two 1,776 hp. Jumo 213A-1.

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/He111-J1-11.jpg
He111J-1 I/KG257 (Later I/KG26).


From Jane`s Fighting Aircraft of World war II
isbn 1 85170 199 0
Bracken Books
Londen
Originally published by Jane`s Publishing Company 1946/47