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Airmail109
10-19-2007, 06:21 PM
Both pilots had very different fighting styles.

Who in your opinion had the better fighting technique?

LW_lcarp
10-19-2007, 06:57 PM
In IL2 Hartmanns tactics are much more usefull as there are so many people in an area and not flying formation that boom and zoom is the only way to go.

In a situation where your enemies are flying formation and such fast attacks as Marseilles would be effective. Against formations of craft staying hidden from them works the best.

Daiichidoku
10-19-2007, 07:24 PM
id say Marseille up until mid 42 or so, and Hartmann all the way, after that

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

TX-Gunslinger
10-19-2007, 09:07 PM
Marseille, if you believe the experten.

That's the opinion of Galland, Rall and many other Luftwaffe figures.

Read their books and comments - it's all there. Subjects been researched and written about to death - but still a popular question. When the old Experten chose to comment on such things - it's usually Marseille.

Both of these pilots operated under entirely different conditions - and adversaries.

Steinhoff - who fired Marseille and was very critical of during his early career - spoke respectfully of Marseille in later years.

Marseille averaged 15 rounds per kill at the height of his career. Victories confirmed by his adversaries. Now, one other difference in conditions between the two, was the comparative access that Berlin had to Marseilles during his period - and the relative distance away from Berlin (farthest reaches of Russia) that Hartmann operated under. By the time that Hartmann came into his own (250 +), Berlin had a lot more to worry about than an individual pilots score, which is why I believe that we don't see data on how many bullets Hartmann averaged per kill. Data is simply not there.

On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Marseilles kills were P-40's/Kittyhawks-Tomahawks plus 16 Spits.

Hartmann's time came later - against the Yak-9/Yak-3/La-5 and a few P-51's. I would certainly give Hartmann the benefit of the doubt in the category of difficulty.

One thing that might be considered is that Marseille's kills were mostly made in 109F2/F4 aircraft operating against Kittyhawks/Tomahawks (first generation U.S. produced fighters) - while most of Hartmann's kills were made in a vanilla 109G6 versus La's/Yak's (second generation Soviet fighters).

Much of this all depends on what metrics you assign to "best". I really do think there are at least 20-50 Luftwaffe pilots who were as good, at their peak. For example - Werner Schroer, who copied Marsielle's technique and achieved "only" 114 victories in 197 sorties - has the second highest mission:kill ratio in WW2. Compare that to Hartmann's 825 sorties.

This is an impossible question to answer objectively, but always a great one to discuss. Thanks

S~

Gunny

TX-Gunslinger
10-19-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Both pilots had very different fighting styles.

Who in your opinion had the better fighting technique?

How would you describe the actual differences in their fighting styles?

S~

249th_Maico
10-19-2007, 10:06 PM
I have no doubt that Marseille was THE MAN. He was a dogfighter. Keen on the hunt, he was a mad man. His style was to use acrobatics and weird angles to kill his prey. He was a shooter of unequalled skill. His prey fell left and right as he sliced and diced. His aicraft handleing was such that he was untouchable. However, every dog has his day. I beleive that the strain of combat in a very demanding theater (I live in the desert, I know) took its toll on this man.
Hartman is no doubt a great flyer. His skill is also excellent. However he flyes cautiously for a lot longer in a an enviroment rich with targets. These targets are the untrained and often fly inferior machinery. No doubt he was a legend. But for outstanding marksmanship, style and In the rink Dogfighting, Marseille will allways be the Top Dog.

Waldo.Pepper
10-19-2007, 10:55 PM
The answer is so obvious I am amazed no one has mentioned it before myself.

The one that lived through the war.

M_Gunz
10-19-2007, 11:08 PM
Shooting styles are very similar but Hartmann did not stay around and re-engage as choice.
I'm thinking that Hartmann learned a thing or two from Marseilles but Hans was the better.

Haigotron
10-19-2007, 11:48 PM
The one that lived through the war.

the lad has a point

Gumtree
10-20-2007, 12:18 AM
Currently reading 'the Blond Knight of Germany' Hartman's story, from what I have read so far I would have to say that Hartman is the superior fighter. The reason I say this is that he seems to have respect from all and sundry, his own greatest claim was he never lost a wingman, that to me is more important than the dubious claims made by Marseilles.

After recently reading a book on the desert air war,from the Australian squadrons perspective, I am now convinced that Marseille was a product of the German propaganda's machine. Whilst he was obviously talented, he rampantly over claimed his kills.

A book on the desert airwar subject I highly recommend to put a new perspective on Marseilles is 'Desert Warriors' by Russell Brown, this is a real eye opener with claims made by both sides placed against actual squadron logged losses.

Its an account of the daily battles between 239 wing (112 RAF, 3RAAF and 450 RAAF) and the Afrika corps Luftwaffe elements (from memory jg27 and jg77 being the main fighter groups).

Anyway just my opinion, what I do know is they were obviously both very talented, with Hartmen probably getting the better aprentiship in JG52.

carguy_
10-20-2007, 01:21 AM
IMO Hartmann was far better since he survived the war.Marseille would get killed sooner or later anyway if he hadn`t the bad luck.

That is to say I ofcourse fly the way Hartmann did.

Ugly_Kid
10-20-2007, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Marseille, if you believe the experten.

That's the opinion of Galland, Rall and many other Luftwaffe figures.



There's the effect of appraising dead brothers in arms and Rall, for example had later an axe to grind with Hartmann so it would have been interesting to catch his judgement before post-war Luftwaffe purchased Starfighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Marseille was an exceptional flier and he was able to be very effective with his tactics. He, but then on the other hand there must have been quite a body count on guys trying to follow his example. Hartmann's tactics then on the other hand were better transferable to a more common man http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, I'd say. One can see it even in this game. Hartmann's approach will keep you longer alive and if you live long enough you'll also bag some bogies. Me and my squadmates tried to adapt to this direction in several wars and some of my mates got the most impressive streaks during VEF and Bellum campaigns. We also flew for USAF in one or two online wars in Normandy and you can guess what is the tactic of choice in P-anything. Spitfire you can go balls to the wall anyway you want.

So if it is about a pilot, skills and dogfighter I'd say Marseille. If it is about tactician and leader I might go for Hartmann.

JG4_Helofly
10-20-2007, 03:32 AM
Marseille had very agressive fighting style, but he was also hit several times by enemy planes, so sooner or later he would have been shot down IMO.
Hartmann, played it safe. He only engaged with an advantage and did not go into dogfights.

That's why I would say that Hartmann's tactic was the better one, because he got many kills without loosing own planes and wingmans. Marseille was just an artist who lived very dangerously.

Brain32
10-20-2007, 03:55 AM
Marseille died in 1942.
Hartmann died in 1993.
Guess which get's my vote http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MEGILE
10-20-2007, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Marseille died in 1942.
Hartmann died in 1993.
Guess which get's my vote http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gabby gabreski?

Kurfurst__
10-20-2007, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Both pilots had very different fighting styles.

Who in your opinion had the better fighting technique?

Marseille had a lot of skill, Hartmann was a tactician.

Tactics beat balls IMHO, and tactics can be used by anyone, as UglyKid already said.

Manu-6S
10-20-2007, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Marseille had a lot of skill, Hartmann was a tactician.

Tactics beat balls IMHO, and tactics can be used by anyone, as UglyKid already said.

Agree.

And we should remember that while Hartmann was a REAL leader, Marseille was disliked for his style of fight: since his first flight no officer wanted him as wingman because he didn't play as a team, didn't caring the life of his leader.


It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my
unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section].
They were made to fly as wingmen, instead.

Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, GAP

Even if...


In the air you cannot find a general or a colonel. Who has the most kills, he
was the leader. . . . It worked very well in the war.

Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, GAP

Wepps
10-20-2007, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Both pilots had very different fighting styles.

Who in your opinion had the better fighting technique?

Hartmann. He was first all about survival, Marseilles was more the wild man.

Hehe if the Luftwaffe was full of Joachims, it would have disappeared entirely by 41, along with every other allied airforce.

Skunk_438RCAF
10-20-2007, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Hartmann's tactic was the better one, because he got many kills without loosing own planes

Eh? Hartmann was shot down 14 times during his career.

Bremspropeller
10-20-2007, 07:22 AM
No, he was forced to bail or crash-land due to other reasons. He was never shot down.

Skunk_438RCAF
10-20-2007, 07:29 AM
Yeah, because he had a damaged plane. Maybe not all 14 times (the encounter with American P-51's where he runs out of fuel comes to mind), but a lot of people will say that he had never been touched by enemy fire, which is completely false.

Damaged aircraft = shot down, regardless if he had been hit by an enemy aircraft, ground fire or spit wads.

waffen-79
10-20-2007, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Marseille died in 1942.
Hartmann died in 1993.
Guess which get's my vote http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gabby gabreski? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LOL

Bremspropeller
10-20-2007, 08:02 AM
Damaged aircraft = shot down, regardless if he had been hit by an enemy aircraft, ground fire or spit wads.

So if he ran into chunks of metal that peeled off the skin of his last victim, the victim gets a kill?

Yeah, maybe if he's with the RAF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Ugly_Kid
10-20-2007, 08:19 AM
I think the signifigance "of not getting shotdown" is getting lost. Yes, he lost quite a few aircraft mostly by getting extremely close for shooting. However, this is not quite the same as getting shot in a tree-top turn-fight due to a tactical blunder and getting shot by the guy you never saw.

There is a saying: ultimate fighter pilot uses his superior judgement and engages only from positions where he knows that he won't land into a situation where he has to use his ultimate flying abilities to get safely out of it again.

Bewolf
10-20-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
I think the signifigance "of not getting shotdown" is getting lost. Yes, he lost quite a few aircraft mostly by getting extremely close for shooting. However, this is not quite the same as getting shot in a tree-top turn-fight due to a tactical blunder and getting shot by the guy you never saw.

There is a saying: ultimate fighter pilot uses his superior judgement and engages only from positions where he knows that he won't land into a situation where he has to use his ultimate flying abilities to get safely out of it again.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

horseback
10-20-2007, 11:33 AM
There's a fellow named Goebel who flew Mustangs with the 31st FG who believes that he very probably shot Hartmann down.

His combat report coincides fairly closely with Hartmann's account of the occasion when he had to take to his chute, except that Goebel's version (confirmed by his flight members & apparently by the combat film, which is now lost) stated that Goebel got strikes on the targeted 109 a few times before the pilot abandoned his aircraft in flight. He was credited with the victory for that encounter by the 15th AF, and the time and place is right.

If it was Hartmann, leaving his aircraft before it was destroyed (possibly along with himself) was a wise decision, and he may not have realized that his aircraft was taking hits, but he DID lose his aircraft due to enemy action in air combat, just like the guy online who 'pulls the plug' and drops off the server when he realizes you've got him in your sights.

Everybody else who took to his parachute under those kinds of circumstances (even without being hit) was considered a 'kill' by all authorities; Hartmann deserves no special treatment in this case.

Even so, he gets my vote over Marseille. North Africa was like the Luftwaffe's private hunting preserve before Torch: the opposition was obsolete Hurricanes further hamstrung by Vokes filters, Tomahawks and Kittyhawks flown by inexperienced pilots, joined by Spit Vs with the Vokes' high drag treatment in late summer '42--yeah, I'd call that a friggin' shooting gallery for a good pilot in a 109F-4.

One has to wonder how he'd do against the more aggressive & better prepared Yanks flying more capable P-40Fs and P-38s in early 1943...

Hartmann faced an increasingly better equipped, trained and always more numerous opposition in an obviously lost cause. He fought a longer and harder war against much better quality opposition.

cheers

horseback

RegRag1977
10-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Hartmann:

"Every day kill just one, rather than five, tomorrow ten...That is enough for you. Then your nerves are calm and you can sleep good, you have your drink in the evening and the next morning you are fit"

Imagine that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

jensenpark
10-20-2007, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
id say Marseille up until mid 42 or so, and Hartmann all the way, after that

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

LOL

Bremspropeller
10-20-2007, 12:56 PM
Thanks for sharing the info, horseback!

Hartmann also gets my vote.
The reason is pretty simple...
Hartmann, after making a few "newbie" mistakes, had some thoughts about tactics and what IS important in aerial warfare.
His supremes had taught him (and not only him!) to never come back without his wingman, or else he would fly himself as wingman over a LONG period.

Hartmann stuck to that rule and appearantly never really failed.

Marseille, however, was always in for the quick kill, disregarding his own safety and the safety of his fellows.
One of his squadmembers once quoted (not without admiration) "Marseille protects his flight by shooting the enemy down before the enemy could turn his guns on his flight".
He was a good shot and developped a tactic to break the defensive lufberry-circle (well, not really a "tactic", just a procedure), but he certainly sucked as tactician, hands down!

Sooner or later, Marseille would have fallen victim to the vastly increasing airpower over north africa. His "fox in the henhouse" fighting style is a textbook-example of bad situational awareness (fixiating one one target, instead of tracking the whole situation).
The F-4 might have had the performance-edge over the planes he faced at his "big time", but with later allied models, the pendulum would certainly have swung towards the allies.
There just is no performance-advantage in a G-2 over a P-38 that would allow you to bleed and regain energy at will.

carguy_
10-20-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
There is a saying: ultimate fighter pilot uses his superior judgement and engages only from positions where he knows that he won't land into a situation where he has to use his ultimate flying abilities to get safely out of it again.

That about sums it up.It`s not like Hartmann never got into a dogfight.IIRC he did have few hot outnumbered fights where he came out on top.If you keep flying day by day sooner or later you will run into a corner.Hartmann survived those situations so he had to have very good flying abilities.

Rammjaeger
10-21-2007, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
There's a fellow named Goebel who flew Mustangs with the 31st FG who believes that he very probably shot Hartmann down.

Funny...when I heard the name, I thought of Greg Goebel, the guy who runs www.vectorsite.net (http://www.vectorsite.net). Then I searched the site and found this:

"Aviation enthusiasts may wonder if I am any relation to fighter ace Bob Goebel. My father is indeed Bob Goebel, but not the one who was a fighter ace, Dad was a supply sargeant in the PTO rear echelon. "It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif