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View Full Version : Non FFB sticks and rumble achieved...



BrotherVoodoo
08-13-2007, 06:08 PM
I have a CH Products Fighter stick that I love, problem is I also want to feel when I am about to stall. I went through a couple of Saitek FFB sticks but they were not nearly as accurate as my CH and felt cheap in comparison. The solution was simple. I borrowed myself a USB rumble gamepad from my daughter and with mounting foam tape attached it to the side of my CH. In the hardware options I turned on FFB. Low and behold it worked! The vibration transferred to my stick and I could feel the stall warnings again. Now I have a nice button bay addition with the primary benefit of rumble effects!
I think this might have been covered long, long ago but I wanted to post this for anyone wanting rumble effects for their non FFB/Rumble sticks. The solution would be great for Cougar users too, any non FFB stick really.
Does anyone know which rumble pad provides the most vibrations, or has the biggest/most motors by chance? I want to upgrade from this no-name ebay model, plus my daughter probably wants her gamepad back, lol.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-13-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm going to give that idea a go...thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

R_Target
08-13-2007, 06:30 PM
I have mine hard-mounted right under the CH stick. Love it.

http://i9.tinypic.com/67eyk43.jpg

BrotherVoodoo
08-13-2007, 09:37 PM
Nice setup Sir. I just ordered a Logitech USB Rumblepad 2 Vibration Feedback. It has 2 motors, we will see how that does. I only have one motor on my tester.

rnzoli
08-14-2007, 03:09 AM
This has been covered before, but it was really worthwhile bringing up again. Rumble effects are almost identical to FFB effects, the only missing effect is the speed-dependent centering tension of the stick.

For this reason however, I think the rumble effects are more realistic, if you can shake your chair (in a buttkicker style) instead of shaking the stick only. The stick should be effected by the centering forces only, stall vibration, gun recoil etc. should be felt with your rear, not your stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vanderstok
08-14-2007, 04:03 AM
Nice idea! I wonder how these rumblepads look like inside? Is it possible to incorporate just the "rumble parts" into the stick base?

SeaFireLIV
08-14-2007, 05:11 AM
Not a bad idea at all. So simple, yet so clever! think I`ll dig my rumble pad out the cupboard. I already have a FF stick, but, hey, the more the merrier!

STENKA_69.GIAP
08-14-2007, 05:23 AM
I had been thinking about taping a second FFB stick to the back of my swivel seat. Yes this seems a good idea.

Capt.LoneRanger
08-14-2007, 05:26 AM
Yeah, that is a great idea. But, now, aren't we forgetting something here?

BrotherVoodoo, I hope you gave that gamepad back to your daughter? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

mynameisroland
08-14-2007, 05:38 AM
Great idea thanks for sharing. Im going to see if I can pick up a cheap rumble pad somewhere and tape it up!

Lastweekend I 'modded' my Saitek Cyborg evo doubling its spring stiffness. I took inspiration from the X-52 Pro's two seperate springs at the base of the stick and took the spring from my old Saitek ST50, which has reasonable tension but is narrower than the beefier Cyborg's spring and then opened up my Cyborg and placed the ST50's spring inside the diameter of the Cyborgs spring. Both springs have the same height so there is no play whatsoever and the result is great. The combined tension of both springs is close to double what the Cyborg comes with as standard and I would say it now has between 3 to 4 times more spring resistance than my CH Combat stick.

Once I get that rumble pad attached and the new Saitek Throttle Quadrant I'll be like a pig in s**t http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-14-2007, 05:50 AM
Britons - take a look in your local 'Game' - I picked up an own brand PS2 controller look-alike there with a good 'rumble' on it for a tenner. Going to play with connecting it to my X-45 today.

mynameisroland
08-14-2007, 07:33 AM
Hey guys any idea what control pads will work with IL2? I read a review of a Saitek P2500 Rumble pad and one person said that the rumble feature hardly worked with most games. He said that it did not work with force feed back games but only with 'rumble' games. This confused me a little.

Any advice?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-14-2007, 07:57 AM
See above cheap 'Game' pad post, Roly - Il2 recognises it, and it rumbles. A cheap experiment if you have any reward points to cash in.

mynameisroland
08-14-2007, 08:14 AM
Thanks LowFlyer, the Game pad remains an option. I can buy that on Friday (no I never remember my reward card grrrr http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) or there is the similarly cheap Logic3 Rumble pad or the Saitek P2500 2nd hand for a £10er delivered.

Does the pad rumble when you fire your guns or get hit ?

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-14-2007, 09:06 AM
Just done a quick test - Il16 v Fiat CR42 - yep! she rumbles like a good un' when guns fired and stalling.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Just wondering where and how to attatch to X-45 now, so's all those spare buttons are accessable.

mynameisroland
08-14-2007, 09:13 AM
Thanks for testing mate!

Now Im pondering whether i should go the whole hog and get a Cyborg Evo force or should I just mod it with the game pad until something breaks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

R_Target
08-14-2007, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Hey guys any idea what control pads will work with IL2? I read a review of a Saitek P2500 Rumble pad and one person said that the rumble feature hardly worked with most games. He said that it did not work with force feed back games but only with 'rumble' games. This confused me a little.

Any advice?

I use the P2500 and it shakes like crazy. Stalls, buffets, gunshake, even landing bounce is all there. It was enough for me that I replaced my FFB files with weaker ones for a while.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-14-2007, 12:21 PM
For those interested, I can recommend this headset for further adventures in rumbling. Bargain price.

http://www.headphoneworld.com/p/Logic3_Bass_Vibration_H...s_and_Microphone.htm (http://www.headphoneworld.com/p/Logic3_Bass_Vibration_Headphones_and_Microphone.ht m)

BrotherVoodoo
08-14-2007, 06:53 PM
Yeah, that is a great idea. But, now, aren't we forgetting something here?

BrotherVoodoo, I hope you gave that gamepad back to your daughter?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

She actually left for camp yesterday so I am legal for a few days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'm glad to see this stirred some interest out there.
Now I wait for the logitech rumble 2 to arrive, I'm thinking the extra motor will add even more dimension to the vibration.

Worf101
08-15-2007, 07:44 AM
Thinking of getting a rumble seat, been thinking of it for years. Just need to know if it'll work with my Uber Cougar.

Thanks Rock.

Da Worfster

BrotherVoodoo
08-15-2007, 09:13 AM
I use the basskickers in my seat, not true rumble effect rather low frequecy vibration from the sound card that you feel, it works awesome for the game and music. It seems I did see a rumble seat years ago that was a rumble effect. I would think either solution would work with your uber kitty Mr. Worf.
I was talking with Bearcat last night and he is going to try the rumble game pad idea but hook the controller up to his rudder pedals. I think this is a great idea! Does anyone know if you can have 2 forcefeedback devices plugged into the game and working at the same time?

DD_crash
08-16-2007, 08:03 AM
bump

FoolTrottel
08-16-2007, 10:00 AM
Does anyone know if you can have 2 forcefeedback devices plugged into the game and working at the same time?

Yes, I do know, and nope, it does not work.

Only the first controller (Control Panel, Game Controllers) will receive FFB signals.

I've tried it with two Guillemot FFB Sticks, only one will Shake... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BrotherVoodoo
08-16-2007, 12:42 PM
Thanks for checking FoolTrottle. BC will be bummed too. I might look around into the idea making some custom rumble solution that I can install in the CH prothrottle, pedals and stick but make it look like one controller to windows. Hmmmm.

spacefrogs
08-16-2007, 01:04 PM
So thatĀ“s just what I have in mind. IĀ“m currently using the pedals of a Logitech Driving Force wheel. I tested the FFB and works great! But since I donĀ“t want to loose such a good wheel, I ebayed a used one for 8ā‚¬ including p&p. So I will try to mod the pedals to fit the job and somehow intergrate the rumble mechanism beneath my seat, maybe in a flat wooden box and just sit over it. Dunno yet exactly but IĀ“ll let you know the results. Too bad that I canĀ“t use two FFB controllers at once, it would be cool to have the same effects on joystick too!!

BrotherVoodoo
08-18-2007, 04:08 PM
I just ordered a Logitech USB Rumblepad 2 Vibration Feedback. It has 2 motors, we will see how that does. I only have one motor on my tester.

I wanted to follow up, I recieved the new rumblepad today. I can definatly feel the difference with the 2 motors. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I can also highly recommend the Logitech USB Rumblepad 2 Vibration Feedback for this purpose. 15 bucks on ebay.
It would be sweet to figure out a way to chain these together and mount them on your throttle and pedals. The trick would be to make the chain look like 1 controller to windows.

R_Target
08-18-2007, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by BrotherVoodoo:
I wanted to follow up, I recieved the new rumblepad today. I can definatly feel the difference with the 2 motors. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I can also highly recommend the Logitech USB Rumblepad 2 Vibration Feedback for this purpose. 15 bucks on ebay.
It would be sweet to figure out a way to chain these together and mount them on your throttle and pedals. The trick would be to make the chain look like 1 controller to windows.

Sweet. I think I'll grab one of those Logitechs. For multiple controllers, wouldn't they still have to be plugged in seperately? I would think they would each need their own power line, 'cause they really do slurp some juice. Maxxed out!

http://i12.tinypic.com/63c593s.jpg

Also, FWIW, the FFB effects are more intense with a rigid connection to the stick. Mine is wedged/built in with a couple small wooden blocks on the bottom of the stand I made for my stick. The vibe is transferred to the wood and up into the CH stick. Of course, duct tape works too, but gets messy and will eventually unstick and sag.

Choctaw111
08-18-2007, 07:55 PM
Hmmm...Sounds like I need to get one of these rumble pads. I am always looking to add a new gizmo to my setup to make my Il2 experience more enjoyable.

rockgardenlove
08-18-2007, 09:18 PM
I might point out that force feedback isn't rumble. Force feedback will actively jerk the stick different directions. Rumble just shakes it. But anyways, here's a way to do multiple force-feedbacks.
http://simprojects.nl/adding_force_feedback.htm

Just split the original motor control output up into say 3 lines, buffer each and send it off to the motors. 3 sets of motors and you can do your stick, rudder pedals, and seat.

BrotherVoodoo
08-19-2007, 01:11 AM
Just split the original motor control output up into say 3 lines, buffer each and send it off to the motors. 3 sets of motors and you can do your stick, rudder pedals, and seat.

Cheers!

Excellent, exactly what I was looking for. Now to actually build one! Thanks for that link, I will study it. I wish something like this was readily available. Maybe I can find a motor and buffer combo. I'm not sure about building one from scratch. I possibly could but would pretty much need it drawn out with a green crayon.

rockgardenlove
08-19-2007, 01:45 AM
And btw, help yourself to some some free samples:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ShoppingExperience/action/...L272&itemType=SAMPLE (http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ShoppingExperience/action/displayItems?gpn=L272&itemType=SAMPLE)
(Provided you can supply a corporate-looking email address...my my, having your own domain is handy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

BrotherVoodoo
08-19-2007, 02:49 AM
Here is what I am trying to achieve now, very rough drawing.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o140/99th_RockStar/rumbleboxes.jpg

rockgardenlove
08-19-2007, 03:20 AM
I gotcha.

The rumble pads (not FFB) only use one motor. The motor has an unbalanced weight on it which vibrates the whole shebang. So you'll only need to build half of that diagram for each buffer. Nice.

Personally I'd buy a cheap FFB joystick (Logitech Force Feedback 3d or so), and take out the circuitry. That way you'll get both X and Y forces, so you could in theory hook real force feedback up to your joystick, and do something like hook just the lateral feedback up to your rudder pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Then you'll also have the ability to add an 8 button input, 4 analog input (throttle, X, Y, and rudder) control box. I'd wire those up as aileron trim, elevator trim, and rudder trim. And then prop pitch (as I don't believe mixture is mappable to a slider).

R_Target
08-19-2007, 10:12 PM
Picked up the Logitech rumbler today. Better than the Saitek.

rnzoli
08-19-2007, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by rockgardenlove:
Personally I'd buy a cheap FFB joystick (Logitech Force Feedback 3d or so), and take out the circuitry. That way you'll get both X and Y forces, so you could in theory hook real force feedback up to your joystick, and do something like hook just the lateral feedback up to your rudder pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


I have got the Logitech circuitry in for my custom-built stick, but it drives the X,Y force-feedback axii right now (as usual). But I am also thinking along the lines of taking the control signals out of it and feeding them into separate motor driver circuits. think the Logitech chip doing the power amplification is a commercially well-known one, hopefully with a pinout description available. I would like to use different motor drivers partly to use larger and more powerful electric motors on the the stick's centering tension and also to place motors to other locations as well.

However, I would like to point out once more, that for a realistic effect, the stick and rudder should be affected by the centering forces only (can be separated by a low-pass filter on the control signal). Shake effects should preferably effect the entire aircraft, therefore it is better if such effects shake your whole simpit (if you have one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) or at least your entire seat.

rockgardenlove
08-19-2007, 11:18 PM
@rnzoli:
http://www.simprojects.nl/adding_force_feedback.htm
There's a good looking circuit. And it shows how to hook up the Logitech FFB 3D. That's why I bought that stick. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If you look at the L272 datasheet there are other example circuits too. You can order free L272 samples from the Fairchild website, along with free international shipping. (Lots of other parts too.)

How do you do the low pass filter exactly?
Just regular capacitor-resistor passive low pass? Some more info here would be great.

I wonder what the best way to get vertical movements into your seat would be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Therion_Prime
08-20-2007, 06:45 AM
Here's my newest invention: The Buttkicker Internal

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1406/buttkickerinternalyf2.jpg

Feel it!
Only $299!

DD_crash
08-20-2007, 07:20 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif watch out for the mods

MEGILE
08-20-2007, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Therion_Prime:
Here's my newest invention: The Buttkicker Internal

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1406/buttkickerinternalyf2.jpg

Feel it!
Only $299!

LMAO.

gtfo

BrotherVoodoo
08-20-2007, 09:57 AM
Here's my newest invention: The Buttkicker Internal
What the....You really take your rumble experience to a whole new level.. I think I'll stick to the bass kickers myself.

rnzoli
08-20-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by rockgardenlove:
@rnzoli:
http://www.simprojects.nl/adding_force_feedback.htm
There's a good looking circuit.
Yes, indeed! I didn't know about this, many thanks. I will look at it in details soon.

The low-pass filter I was thinking about could be the simple resistor in serial + capacitor in parallel. HOwever, as I gave it a second thought, it might also delay the damping effects, maybe this isn't such a good idea. Ideally, the game should be able to drive different FFB channels with different forces, but it can't right now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Anyway, shaking the stick/rudder together with the seat is a much better solution than shaking the stick/rudder only.

Therion_Prime
08-20-2007, 02:41 PM
What the....You really take your rumble experience to a whole new level.. I think I'll stick to the bass kickers myself.

A.K.A.

I tell you. You're missing something, really. Be sure.

Lurch1962
01-09-2008, 06:06 PM
I've just taken apart a recently-purchased Rumblepad (the older 2002 model, which has a throttle slider above the right trigger.) My aim is to attach the rumble motors directly to my CH stick's handle (hopefully the vibration won't be too strong!), via a bracket which protrudes forward and upward from the handle's underside. And to use the rest of the guts, I'll make another box for switches and rotary potentiometers.

As for the Rumblepad itself, there are two motors of the same size (one in each "handle"), but the weight on the left motor is easily twice as heavy as the right hand one.

The two analog joysticks are attached to their own small PCB board, which is in turn connected to the main board by a 5-wire ribbon cable. Each mini-stick is a 2-axis, spring-centered unit in a small metal box, which I'll chuck aside so that individual pots can be used instead.

The switches are actually conductive pads which, when pressed, bridge a gap in their respective foil pattern on the main board. I'll probably solder fine wires to the printed PCB pattern itself, which will then connect to normally-open micro-switches.

================

I'm doing all this without even having tested the un-opened Rumblepad, based on the reported successes I've read.

Enquiring minds want to know... If the rumble effect is sufficient when the unmodified thing is merely attached to the underside of a stick *base*, will it be TOO strong if the motors are attached directly to the handle??

Question two... If this is the only "FFB" device, does it still need to appear at the top of the controller listing in WinDoze (or the game)?

Question(s) three... Are the two motors driven together, or is there a separate effect assigned to each? Are the signals to the motors pulsed, or are they simply continuously on for the duration of the effect? And related to this, is the intensity/rate controlled by varying the voltage to the motors (which affects speed of rotation)?


--Lurch--

FoolTrottel
01-10-2008, 12:08 AM
Question two... If this is the only "FFB" device, does it still need to appear at the top of the controller listing in WinDoze (or the game)?
No, it does not. It'll rumble.

You can easily try this before you take the thing apart! Hook it up and fly!

AFJ_rsm
01-10-2008, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
This has been covered before, but it was really worthwhile bringing up again. Rumble effects are almost identical to FFB effects, the only missing effect is the speed-dependent centering tension of the stick.

For this reason however, I think the rumble effects are more realistic, if you can shake your chair (in a buttkicker style) instead of shaking the stick only. The stick should be effected by the centering forces only, stall vibration, gun recoil etc. should be felt with your rear, not your stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

True

However, for this very same reason I would recommend anyone who wants to fly their plane online to the limits, whether in competitions or 1v1's, to buy an FFB stick.

Those forces come in great help when determining not just when you're about to stall but your optimum turning rate.

BrotherVoodoo
01-10-2008, 10:51 AM
However, for this very same reason I would recommend anyone who wants to fly their plane online to the limits, whether in competitions or 1v1's, to buy an FFB stick.
The rumple pad produces a nice vibration for the stall warnings and turbulance. I have set mine up in a way that the rumble travels to both my CH Fighterstick and CH Pro Throttle. CH precision and rumble, it doesn't get much better IMO.

AFJ_rsm
01-10-2008, 12:45 PM
yes I understand that

I'm not talking about the rumble though, I'm talking about the return to center forces and their varying strength according to speed and angle of attack

I rarely push my plane to where I get the pre stall shakes or rumbles. That's not a productive area to be. Return to center forces help me figure out just how much I can pull before getting there.

Herr_Falke
01-10-2008, 02:43 PM
Tried it and it works great! Thanks!