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View Full Version : A bull$hit full real server, and the "mystique" of full real.



XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:50 AM
Hello,

Just got finished flying with some "real men" on a "full real" server. The only options were friendly icons.

How close to reality was it? Well the host and majority of everyone flew around hiding right on the deck in Hurricane IIcs looking for someone flying off the deck or over a ridge or something. Most kills were gotten when the deck flyers strafed an enemy field of latched onto someone taking off from an enemy field. I didn't see one dogfight at altitude. The only one I saw fly higher than the hills was yours truly. Not much to do up there in my I-153. Any hurris that came after me found they couldn't stay on my tail anyway.

Is this realistic? In all first hand accounts I have read on fighter combat I never read of driving the plane around like a car on the ground looking for the "morons" that flew over a hundred feet and were easy to spot against the sky.

Why the difference in how they fought in WWII and the wonderful full real servers running? Well one thing I noticed is that it doesn't seem as easy to see in the virtual world of Forgotten Battles as it is in the real world. I can look out my car window into a field for hundreds of yards or maybe a mile in northern Ohio and I am pretty sure I would spot a Hurricane sitting there with the cabbage or potatoes, or against the tree line. I can see deer all over heII here, I sure as $hit could see a freakin FW190 if it was out there. But it sure as $hit ain't that easy to see things against the landscape in Forgotten Battles. No where near as easy. So it is not very realistic to me. I run my monitor at 1600 by 1280 and it runs smooth. With a barton core AMD and a radeon 9700 pro. As good as anyone has and better than the majority I'd bet.

It is the best flight sim bar none. And i love it. But there is no way anyone is going to say that the simulated vision is anywhere close to reality. I would say that you can see about half as good as in REAL LIFE.
Go to an airshow and look at a plane against some trees across the field. Is it a mile away? LOts easier to see than in FB isn't it?

Now to the point I wanted to make. Surprise! All this has an actual point!

If it is agreed that vision is not as good in the sim as in real life, then what would make up for it? What would help make up for the "nearsightedness" that the limits of our sim put on us? What in FB helped see things we might be able to see in real life, but were hidden because of limitations in our current technology?

Remember when you found an enemy with padlock? Padlock definitly is not something that existed in WWII, except in some form for the night fighters maybe. Padlock's range has been cut down to 3 kilometers with the latest patch. A move in the right direction. Now if the "plus" of Padlock was not around to help them see in WWII, and the "negative" of poor vision imposed on us in the virtual world was not around in WWII, if we combine these do these opposites cancel each other out and provide a more real "full real"?

If your head is not something close to solid wood, maybe you have picked up that this is an case for full real with padlock being closer to real than full real period.


And on top of better vision, that might let me spot something I would see in actual reality anyway, I get to keep my eyes on an object and move my pretty little "virtual head",without fumbling with a bunch of buttons or a hat switch. Do you walk around pressing buttons or some such crap when you watch a bird fly by?

Now the mystique of full real. Online servers are full as of ego play as anywhere on planet earth. So of course to be a "real big man" you have to be a tough guy and go with full real right? Anything else is for little girlie men right? So you sow a "full real" patch on your hat and strut around. If you were for anything less, you would be banned like the Dixie Chicks were for having a mind of their own and speaking out against that Moron George Bush. (I am a citizen of the USA, I am ashamed to say to the world these days).

So have fun all you "real men"! in your "full real" servers(yeah right). Saying that FBs full real is the closest thing to actual reality, probably approximates how good a grip you have on reality in all areas of your life.


I will, as always, be in full real with padlock. Where all the fully real men are afraid to go, with there panzy a$$ follow the leader track IR I will stick up their A$$es.

This was fun,


Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:50 AM
Hello,

Just got finished flying with some "real men" on a "full real" server. The only options were friendly icons.

How close to reality was it? Well the host and majority of everyone flew around hiding right on the deck in Hurricane IIcs looking for someone flying off the deck or over a ridge or something. Most kills were gotten when the deck flyers strafed an enemy field of latched onto someone taking off from an enemy field. I didn't see one dogfight at altitude. The only one I saw fly higher than the hills was yours truly. Not much to do up there in my I-153. Any hurris that came after me found they couldn't stay on my tail anyway.

Is this realistic? In all first hand accounts I have read on fighter combat I never read of driving the plane around like a car on the ground looking for the "morons" that flew over a hundred feet and were easy to spot against the sky.

Why the difference in how they fought in WWII and the wonderful full real servers running? Well one thing I noticed is that it doesn't seem as easy to see in the virtual world of Forgotten Battles as it is in the real world. I can look out my car window into a field for hundreds of yards or maybe a mile in northern Ohio and I am pretty sure I would spot a Hurricane sitting there with the cabbage or potatoes, or against the tree line. I can see deer all over heII here, I sure as $hit could see a freakin FW190 if it was out there. But it sure as $hit ain't that easy to see things against the landscape in Forgotten Battles. No where near as easy. So it is not very realistic to me. I run my monitor at 1600 by 1280 and it runs smooth. With a barton core AMD and a radeon 9700 pro. As good as anyone has and better than the majority I'd bet.

It is the best flight sim bar none. And i love it. But there is no way anyone is going to say that the simulated vision is anywhere close to reality. I would say that you can see about half as good as in REAL LIFE.
Go to an airshow and look at a plane against some trees across the field. Is it a mile away? LOts easier to see than in FB isn't it?

Now to the point I wanted to make. Surprise! All this has an actual point!

If it is agreed that vision is not as good in the sim as in real life, then what would make up for it? What would help make up for the "nearsightedness" that the limits of our sim put on us? What in FB helped see things we might be able to see in real life, but were hidden because of limitations in our current technology?

Remember when you found an enemy with padlock? Padlock definitly is not something that existed in WWII, except in some form for the night fighters maybe. Padlock's range has been cut down to 3 kilometers with the latest patch. A move in the right direction. Now if the "plus" of Padlock was not around to help them see in WWII, and the "negative" of poor vision imposed on us in the virtual world was not around in WWII, if we combine these do these opposites cancel each other out and provide a more real "full real"?

If your head is not something close to solid wood, maybe you have picked up that this is an case for full real with padlock being closer to real than full real period.


And on top of better vision, that might let me spot something I would see in actual reality anyway, I get to keep my eyes on an object and move my pretty little "virtual head",without fumbling with a bunch of buttons or a hat switch. Do you walk around pressing buttons or some such crap when you watch a bird fly by?

Now the mystique of full real. Online servers are full as of ego play as anywhere on planet earth. So of course to be a "real big man" you have to be a tough guy and go with full real right? Anything else is for little girlie men right? So you sow a "full real" patch on your hat and strut around. If you were for anything less, you would be banned like the Dixie Chicks were for having a mind of their own and speaking out against that Moron George Bush. (I am a citizen of the USA, I am ashamed to say to the world these days).

So have fun all you "real men"! in your "full real" servers(yeah right). Saying that FBs full real is the closest thing to actual reality, probably approximates how good a grip you have on reality in all areas of your life.


I will, as always, be in full real with padlock. Where all the fully real men are afraid to go, with there panzy a$$ follow the leader track IR I will stick up their A$$es.

This was fun,


Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:54 AM
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I'm just saying...


<Center><img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwC4BKYUc8NdMGbLmK6nXDVLh2PHDHXJaQ1bq!8G7LP4M88wB FsyxFjf4d*z6zBGsbDWqHu7YGhkgzyCM27ZtHoOdC*BEG5*v4s Dst1JT1g/sig.jpg> </Center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:54 AM
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-------
I'm just saying...


<Center><img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwC4BKYUc8NdMGbLmK6nXDVLh2PHDHXJaQ1bq!8G7LP4M88wB FsyxFjf4d*z6zBGsbDWqHu7YGhkgzyCM27ZtHoOdC*BEG5*v4s Dst1JT1g/sig.jpg> </Center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:56 AM
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-------
I'm just saying...


<Center><img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwC4BKYUc8NdMGbLmK6nXDVLh2PHDHXJaQ1bq!8G7LP4M88wB FsyxFjf4d*z6zBGsbDWqHu7YGhkgzyCM27ZtHoOdC*BEG5*v4s Dst1JT1g/sig.jpg> </Center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:02 AM
Wow, Jumo, you seem to be something of a real ****. I don't fly FB as a **** measuring contest. "Real men"? Real men aren't at home professing his manhood cause he flies a flight sim.

I don't use padlock or track IR. I must be cooler, that must why I get all the chicks.


Geez, man, get a grip.


Now that was fun.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:03 AM
Did you know that aircrafts even nowaday tend to collide in the air?? You know why?? Other aircrafts are really, really, really hard to spot in the air. You first see them when they are moving across the windshield or you look directly at them, or they are much to close. Today pilots are taught to spot other aircrafts when flying and it's not as easy as it seems. Want to know more on the topic try studying "human resources".

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:19 AM
give him a break, he just doesnt realize that this has been argueed since day 1. IF you dont like those settig go fly in another server,. How hard is that? Come back when u[ve been around for awhile.


That way yopu dont have to get WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaed

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:19 AM
Well, I agree that Jumo needs to "get a grip", but I flew-'em for real and I can tell you that FB "full realism" is anything but. I choose to fly that way for the challenge, but a 2D monitor with a hat switch for lookin' around is a very different affair than what you experience in the actual cockpit.

It is still the best flight sim around, but "full realism" no way.

All the best, Don

Message Edited on 08/23/0301:38AM by pacettid

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:23 AM
Just what in the Sam Hill does a rant about full real flight sim servers have to do with the President of the United States Of America?


Hittin the sauce a little heavy Jumo?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:29 AM
I think one of the only ones who made sense in this thread was heavy delta. GET A BLOODY GRIP YOU WHINEY PRATS.
What the hell do you expect? its a bloody computer game not a real sodding cockpit. SHEEEEEEEESH!

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:37 AM
Hedus wrote:
- Wow, Jumo, you seem to be something of a real ****.
- I don't fly FB as a **** measuring contest. "Real
- men"? Real men aren't at home professing his
- manhood cause he flies a flight sim.
-
- I don't use padlock or track IR. I must be cooler,
- that must why I get all the chicks.
-
-
- Geez, man, get a grip.
-
-
- Now that was fun.

ROTFLMAO!


<font size= 3> <font color= blue>
TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:38 AM
HD, I wanna give buy you a beer or something man. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:42 AM
Baloban wrote:
- HD, I wanna give buy you a beer or something man. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

yea he worked hard, he deserves it


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:51 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Baloban wrote:
-- HD, I wanna give buy you a beer or something man. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- yea he worked hard, he deserves it

I dunno Huck.... maybe we could use a few charts and graphs to elaborate on HD's platform. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BM357_Raven
08-23-2003, 08:04 AM
I agree with everyone, everywhere and on every issue and most of all this one. Also, the most realistic way to fly is the way that I fly-- in full WWII fighter pilot gear.

Those of you who do not fly this way, are a bunch of fakes. Join our "100% Full Gear" games on UBI. For those who are looking to escape fantasy, you have finally done it. 8)

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
http://bm357.com/KTIN_RADIO.gif

http://www.bm357.com
http://bm357.com/bm357_raven_with_guns%20copy.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:07 AM
Get a life/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:10 AM
I only have to say this:

Last night I flew on a FULL REAL server, (NO icons, NO speedbar, NO nothing). When I was taking off an enemy fighter was spraying my base with mgs, after he disappeared I took off and for about half an hour was seeking enemy, when I was almost bingo I finally saw them. Two lovely Sturmo slowly drawing LOW aver terrain, but somehow I could't kept tally on them, they disappeard ...I was RTB, tired and frustrated, accasionaly checking my six...Suddenly vrooom, bam, bam, bam, an enemy (I did't see him at all), sparayed me with his gun from nose to tail a few evasive maneuvres, into clouds and sky was clear and friendly again. I limped in my heavily damaged Bf to base and belly landig her...that's all.
Was it close to WWII reality? IMO, it was more close then ever...

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:46 AM
"Paging Doctor Leo Marvin"

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:35 AM
Hey, Hedu -- you forgot these after your last ****-measuring contest. They crapped all over the La-Z-Boy... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://home.comcast.net/~mswantak/wsb/media/1477/site1186.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:38 AM
"...I noticed is that it doesn't seem as easy
- to see in the virtual world of Forgotten Battles as
- it is in the real world."

Damn, thanks for the news. You must not have had a good night bro! What I usually do when I'm feed up with a server, is join a different one, instead of whinning like a girl on public forums. Good Luck!

<center><img src=http://home.bresnan.net/~krojas/img/77banner.jpg alt="Click here to visit Maddog-Simulations.com!"> (http://www.maddog-simulations.com)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:16 PM
pacettid wrote:
- Well, I agree that Jumo needs to "get a grip", but I
- flew-'em for real and I can tell you that FB "full
- realism" is anything but. I choose to fly that way
- for the challenge, but a 2D monitor with a hat
- switch for lookin' around is a very different affair
- than what you experience in the actual cockpit.
-
- It is still the best flight sim around, but "full
- realism" no way.
-

24" monitor, large fresnal lens, trackir, is very, very close to reality! It was even closer when i tried it with a projector.

I short: it's not the fault of the FB software that many find the experience unrealistic. It's the unrealistic expectations of the 15" monitor, snap view/PL whiners.

You don't hear anyone with a projector and TIR saying it's unrealistic, do you?

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:20 PM
FireBird77 wrote:
- I only have to say this:
-
- Last night I flew on a FULL REAL server, (NO icons,
- NO speedbar, NO nothing). When I was taking off an
- enemy fighter was spraying my base with mgs, after
- he disappeared I took off and for about half an hour
- was seeking enemy, when I was almost bingo I finally
- saw them. Two lovely Sturmo slowly drawing LOW aver
- terrain, but somehow I could't kept tally on them,
- they disappeard ...I was RTB, tired and frustrated,
- accasionaly checking my six...Suddenly vrooom, bam,
- bam, bam, an enemy (I did't see him at all),
- sparayed me with his gun from nose to tail a few
- evasive maneuvres, into clouds and sky was clear and
- friendly again. I limped in my heavily damaged Bf to
- base and belly landig her...that's all.
- Was it close to WWII reality? IMO, it was more close
- then ever...
-
-

Well said. Too many here want to play x-wing with WWII skins!

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:34 PM
BigDukeSixx wrote:
- 24" monitor, large fresnal lens, trackir, is very,
- very close to reality! It was even closer when i
- tried it with a projector.
-
- I short: it's not the fault of the FB software that
- many find the experience unrealistic. It's the
- unrealistic expectations of the 15" monitor, snap
- view/PL whiners.
-
- You don't hear anyone with a projector and TIR
- saying it's unrealistic, do you?

lol...let me reiterate that FB is truly a great flightsim, and IMHO the great majority of the guys why fly it are highly intelligent, fantastic folks.

I will also concede that a projector, TIR, and the rest of the kit mentioned (lol...are there really that many guys out there who can actually afford all that stuff) are very nice, and help to improve immersion.

Now if all the guys out there who do have this equipment also have a year of aviation ground school, and several hundred hours flying actual hi-perf, prop driven, military aircraft, then the argument that $3000 worth of virtual flight kit and a copy of FB is "full realism" might be even more persuasive.

Since I do not have a projector and TIR, I will only speak from my experiences. Now recognize that 30 years may have dimmed my memory a bit, but the last time I tightened my shoulder straps, and looked through an oil-covered canopy to watch firetrucks approaching the threshold, just in case they had to "sweep me off the tarmac", my thoughts did not revolve around...hmmmmmm, I wonder which airfield I should respawn at".


You get the point I think...Best flightsim out there...YES..."full realism"? NOT

All the best, Don

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:58 PM
I fly on a full real (friendly icon only) server very much like the complainer's, and my experience is very different. I have to look up, down, and all around all the time, because I don't know where someone is going to hit me from.

I've seen TB-3s at a thousand meters, and 109s at 50.



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:04 PM
pacettid wrote:

- You get the point I think...Best flightsim out
- there...YES..."full realism"? NOT

We all no what 'full real' means in the context of a server. Bad terminology, maybe, but worth a stupid debate on semantics? No!

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:29 PM
Full real sux. no padlock....winderful for track ir users.
limited vision sux.

Basicaly you could probably have more fun at a drunken hog branding contest than on a full real server.
IMO

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:30 PM
Ok, I do not want my last post to look like a forensic discussion on semantics, so I will endeavor to explain what I think is the biggest difference, between the sim and actual flight, from the context of a "full realism server".

In the context of this thread, the term "full realism" relates to how the "view out of the cockpit" is represented. Even with a marvelous sim like FB, and all the wonderful kit you mentioned in your first post, it is still a 2D representation of the 3D cockpit.


The "full realism" setting is far more "realistic" than flying around in "Wonder Woman" mode with a full view of the sky, and TIR makes "looking around quickly", somewhat more realistic, but the ability to crane your neck to look around an obstruction in the cockpit is still impossible with the current level of technology.

So my opinion is, "full realism" is better, and a lot more of a challenge than "Wonder Woman" mode, but it is still a 2D represntation of a 3D world.

This sim also simplifies aircraft silohuettes, especially when the distance to the object is large. This limitation is necessary to preserve computer resources, but it definitely reduces the "full realism" effect so desperately sought after by the purists in the hobby.

So the real debate centers around whether or not things like virtual flight kit, aircraft labels, and padlock make it more realistic. In my opinion they change the challenge, one way or the other, but we still have a long way to go before we get where we want to be with a realistic view from the cockpit.

So until then, I will S! all opinions, and enjoy the debate.




All the best, Don

Message Edited on 08/23/0310:23AM by pacettid

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:39 PM
Actualy Guys,
In the past Oleg has said that padlock assisted view was meant for full reality mode games, because this is only a simulation, and the padlock assisted view allows the pilot to see aircraft, example flying low as they would in real life.
If you have hard settings without Padlock assisted view that is just hard settings, not full reality mode in this particular simulation.

In time as PC technology and Graphics Cards catch up, people who host servers with hard settings and then fly low will become the sitting ducks they where in real life.

S!



Message Edited on 08/23/0301:40PM by Artic_Wulf

Hunter82
08-23-2003, 03:12 PM
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/whocares2.jpg



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<center><FONT COLOR="white">Hunter82 wrote:
"I did not have technical relations with that question"
[/i]</FONT>
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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:20 PM
lol...if that were really true, this forum would have been history, long ago.

All the best, Don

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:57 PM
We need a bigger room I belive hunter this one is getting abit crowded /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

ZG77_Nagual
08-23-2003, 03:57 PM
Nice carpet Hunter - you get the gold star of funniness for this thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Well - I like to fly cockpit on, icons, padlock and externals. Why? I work with freakin computers all the time and I get eyestrain lookin for the dots. I like airplanes - and I like the cinematic effect of seeing them from the outside - this way - I have fun and do not get a headache. It also gives some sense of movement which is missing without g forces and all that.

Realism ain't gonna happen without you should get a room sized simulator like the airforce uses.

I've flown 'full real' it's allright - not better or even all that much harder - just different - less action - more moving the mouse around.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:06 PM
Jumoschwanz :rank = over 10 postings.


Heavy Delta : rank = over 5000 f%$cking postings



Now who the f%^ck has to get a life? And your above postings are representive of the quality of all 5000+ of them I am sure.

Hawgdog
08-23-2003, 04:08 PM
potatoes



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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:26 PM
HeavyDelta wrote:
- waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
- aaa
-
-
-
- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
- aaaaaaaaa...


Yes, but I need the whole data on that. Have you got any track depicting the problem? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Dux Corvan -

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Hawgdog
08-23-2003, 04:49 PM
Jumoschwanz wrote:
- Jumoschwanz :rank = over 10 postings.
- Heavy Delta : rank = over 5000 f%$cking
- postings
- Now who the f%^ck has to get a life? And your
- above postings are representive of the quality of
- all 5000+ of them I am sure.


BWA HAAA HAAA



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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:13 PM
I fly FR+speedbar and no other setting brings me so much fun and immersion.

We have different ppl with different tastes.Some want to fell like a real WWII pilot,others want to shoot stuff.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:23 PM
In RL there was no "instantant dogfight" like the servers. If you wanna fell like flying in the war, go to a coop game with FR, then you will have a Full Real experience!

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<

adlabs6
08-23-2003, 05:29 PM
You can search the forum and find many, many threads on this topic. Honestly, any attempt at "full real" on a dogfight server is a lost cause from the beginning, since "full real" tactics used by a squad of planes from their home base are rarely ever seen.

If you want "realism" then try a coop game. At best you'll get to start up at the hangars and taxi to the strip, assemble in formation after takeoff, navigate and cruise the skies scanning for enemy aircraft that are doing the same thing. Fight to live, and keep your squad alive. Then RTB together and live to tell about it. That's "realism" for me.

If a host is fair, he'll allow padlock for those that use padlock, and full icons for those who use the hatswitch with icons. Those who don't like icons won't use them (toggle them off!), and those who don't like padlock won't use it. Those that like no icons and no padlock will toggle them off on their PC's. Who could complain? An expert with any of these methods, whether padlock, hatswitch, TrackIR, or icons will have no trouble excelling, and the settings the other players use will have no bearing on your skills.

Seems so simple doesn't it?

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:53 PM
That actually is the most imaginative use of the post count that I've seen in a while here.

As for lives, who said we had lives again?

I just find it rather ironic when someone starts complaining that their 20' monitor, and $1000 computer can't perfectly simulate reality. I mean basic weather simulations only bring most Cray's to their knees, it's not likes it's difficult or anything.

Here's a hint, most of these difficulty setting can be turned *off*. You might actually find that useful.

And, on a random side note, that actually is what the Eastern front was like, for the most part. Unless there was a major land battle going on, with Sturmoviks and Stukas being sent in to support it, most of the air war was simply flying around at relatively low altitude looking for something to bounce, either from above for the LW aircrat, or from below for thew VVS fighters. I recall a comment by one of the Eastern Front Experten, describing what it was like being transfered to the Western front. Apparently it was amazingly wonderful to actually have easy to find targets for a change (this was from a guy who had already scored 100+ kills in the East), until the ramifications of that sunk in...

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:58 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- until the ramifications of that sunk in...

LOL! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:02 PM
Well ill tell you what if you dont like a full real server Leave. Dont play, this world is full of cryers and we dont care.
And bye the way if your ashamed to be an American get the hell out, and go to a country that you can be proud of.... hmmm where would you go? That would be an interesting answer.

War

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:03 PM
Jumoshwanz...Would that be "****" for short???





~S~ AR
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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:16 PM
lol yaa your soo full of yourself your starting to believe in your own sht!!!! lol super clown!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:53 PM
I can't help it..full real has nothing to do with nothing! Cockpit on, hud on, has nothing to do with full real, Full real was for the men that where there!.........YOU are playing a game,...and in this game are options for a level playing field...2D,3D, HUD on, Icons on, cockpit on, makes no deference...CHOSE YOUR PLAYING FIELD.and live within those boundary's or go play CFS 2 where the sky's the limit

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:42 PM
about the Full Real debate or the Dixie Chicks? I thought so.


Hunter82 wrote:
-
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- src="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/whocares2
- .jpg">
-
-
-
-
-
- <center><FONT COLOR="white">[/i]</FONT>
- <center><FONT COLOR="white">Hunter82 wrote:
- "I did not have technical relations with that
- question"
- [/i]</FONT>
- <center> Mudmovers (http://www.mudmovers.com/)
- </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:52 PM
Dont play in FR servers then sissy sissy lala. And if you are ashamed to be an American then get the f**k outa our country whiner.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:05 PM
JumoSchwantz wrote: "I will, as always, be in full real with padlock. Where all the fully real men are afraid to go, with there panzy a$$ follow the leader track IR I will stick up their A$$es."

Pssst....this may come as a big surprise to you but no one cares where you'll be. Be sure and use your little "Maxipad-lock" though. You'll need it. (snicker)

GR142-Pipper

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:14 PM
If I hear another moron say: "Full real is not full real, cause..." again I'm going to hurl. How can ANYONE be so stupid as to believe that people who play "full real" actually think it's real life? DUH! It's the stupidist argument I've ever read on this forum.

I'll fill it in for you guys once and for all:

FULL REAL IS SIMPLY A TERM TO INDICATE A SET OF OPTIONS IN THE GAME. NOBODY REALLY BELIEVES WHEN THEY START UP FB THAT THEY'VE BEEN MAGICALLY TRANSPORTED IN TIME TO WWII. HONESTLY!

Play the game however you want to.

As a flight-sim newbie myself I prefer "full-real" settings. Why? Because I play this game for the maximum immersion most of the time but I'm as aware of the limitations as much as you are. The only difference is I'm willing to accept those limitations as a trade-off for the immersion despite the added difficulty. You, on the other hand, prefer to shoot stuff every two minutes and re-spawn.

GOOD FOR YOU!! I'll play with lowered settings myself sometimes if I don't have the time to invest in a FR game, since it really IS both a game and a simulator.

Just find a server that plays the way you have fun and keep convincing yourself that cockpit off and radar-cloud padlock makes up for anything.

Yes, FR is more difficult and in some ways than Real LifeT (3d vision, etc, etc) but it's the best we have. Turning your cockpit off just gives you abilities nobody ever had without a glass plane.

It's about exposing tactics that just aren't possible when opponents are hammering on their acquire padlock key to find you in a cloud or under your cockpit without ever knowing you're there.

With that kind of thinking we might as well give chess players the option for knights to move six spaces at a time to make up for real life horses being much faster and maneuverable, and kings the option to zig-zag across the board since most kings had chariots.

While we're at it let's whine for the option to remove the clouds and put in solid black terrain textures at will (to make up for our visual limitations) and call it just as real as "full real".

Just play on the game-types that let you have fun the way you like it and stop these senseless exercises in semantics.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



<center>http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:14 PM
GR142-Pipper wrote:
- JumoSchwantz wrote: "I will, as always, be in full
- real with padlock. Where all the fully real men are
- afraid to go, with there panzy a$$ follow the leader
- track IR I will stick up their A$$es."
-
- Pssst....this may come as a big surprise to you but
- no one cares where you'll be. Be sure and use your
- little "Maxipad-lock" though. You'll need it.
- (snicker)
-
- GR142-Pipper
-
-


this is a great character statement about the mentality of the high noon yak crowd. can't tolerate anyone who don't fly the exact way they do and always have to make a point to say somehting stupid to make themselves feel bigger about themselves.

if you don't agree with the guy, why the f@ck bother to say anything about it? what does that do for anyone?

oh wait, it's all about you and your ego




Message Edited on 08/23/0309:16PM by yakovlev_guy

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:27 PM
We don't play full real because it's really real.
(How dare you think we are people like you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

It's the funniest setting that FB can give us. So we play with this setting, so called 'Full Real'. Why bother?

If you can't understand, you are hopeless.

Go out and play WWII-skinned X-wing, ok? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Right. Get a life. Don't spend your precious time playing X-wing thing.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:29 PM
Oh, and Jumo. If you're letting the "Dixie Chix" dictate politics to you in black and white terms you might as well consider letting Garth Brooks advise you on how to invest your McDonald's drive-through wage in long-term GIC's.

As a Canadian that doesn't agree with much of our own politics I can still proudly say that I'm proud to be Canadian.

And while you're crafting your undoubtedly witty and scathing come-back you can rest assured that I probably know more about the politics of your country than you do. To bad you have to feel ashamed to be American when there is arguably much more good your country does for others than wrongs.

I know it's more fashionable to focus on the bad stuff but with luck you'll base your opinions on facts from multiple sources than on the a bunch of pop stars that made a name and following with thier breasts and vacuos lyrics rather than any self-styled musical substance.



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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:33 PM
I think we should all build cockpits in our rooms.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:38 PM
Ok, its funny how a guy whines about a crappy server and everyone jumps on him.

It is even more funny when these laughing guys dig up "first hand" charts of airplane performance to give to OLEG to try to fix their little P-47.....

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 10:41 PM
Lets see if I have this right.

Your only a man if you use padlock...Check

You have no life if you have alot of posts...Check

Jumo is the asshat of the year.....Check


Is that about it?

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 01:02 AM
Once Again Guys,
It comes down to the limitations of PC technology and the interface we use for the game.
The Last Post I read on Olegs view point in regards to this matter was that he worked with some actual WW2 pilots on the padlock assisted view for the game.
In the game we cannott see as well as we could see in real life or full reality mode, so the padlock assisted view assists to bring the game closer to reality in what our Virtual pilot can see, or what we could have seen in real life.

The hardest settings of all does not equal simulating full reality mode in this particular simulation.
Thats just maximum hard settings, and not reality within this Simulation.

IL/2 FB was designed with padlock assisted view only allowed = Actual full reality mode.

Hardest settings = Not full reality mode,

When you classify a game by its settings, what do you use as your bench mark?
Simple the designer recommendations.

Anyhow its personal chioce, only about 5% of the Online Gaming community use full hard settings, the rest fly in full reality mode , with only padlock assisted view allowed or lesser difficulty settings anyway.

S!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 01:17 AM
it apears you have trouble with people that dont see things your way just avoid the servers you dont like. or host your own server. I realy dont have an opinion on padlock have never used it but my son does and realy likes it .BTW hes 27 and im 52 probpbly 7out of 10 i flame his bottom so is it padlock that he relys on that gives me the advantage . I dont know full real is hard but with a wing man you can do okay if you can find yourway around the map!!! I rattled enough someone elses turn.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 03:34 AM
Padlock was only created because game designers couldn't figure out a better arrangement for controlling view slewing, and frankly I hate using it. The blasted think never wants to look in the direction I want it to. It's basically handing control of your eyes over to a stupid computer. I just use a trackball now, and it is so much easier to keep track of everything.

The only thing I don't have over padlock is the computer assited targeter. That is annoying to have to fight against. All someone has to do is keep punching a button and every aircraft, hostile or friendly is quickly spotted and tagged for them.

Padlock is ust a temp fix for a problem that never should have existed, however too few programer could think in any terms other than "front" "back" "left" "right" or "up" and were more willing to just write a couple of lines of code to fix it rather than think outside their little box. Now a generation of flight simmers are so hooked on letting the computer do the work of spotting that no game could possibly be released without including it. The only reason Il-2 has padlock at all is because it was demanded by gamers. The time a work the dev team spent talking with vets and pilots was on limiting padlock to something reasonable, not expanding its capabilities.

And for reference, I cannot spot a 10 meter object 3 km away in real life, but I can in the game. Tell me which is more real?

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:08 AM
maybe the whaaambulance driver will run this guy over

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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:25 AM
Here's the thing: many fans of full realism don't understand the distinction between "full realism" and just "as artificially hard as we can make it".

Case in point: icons. When IL-2 first came out, there were two options for icons: big, long, overdetailed icons that included everything but the pilot's social security number....or NONE. Rightfully, many thought these icons obtrusive and didn't use them.

Then, when v1.2 came out, the icons were made *editable*. You could display or NOT display each of the types of data in the icon (name, type, range, etc.). So now, you could create what I call "full real" icons: short for enemy, showing only type at 3km, and for friends, Name and range, within 5km (this also simulates training together, radio contact [whether you're using voice comms or not], familiarity with your sidemates, etc.

But, the full realism Nazis all HATE icons. They think it's more realistic NOT to see a plane under you against the terrain, or to suddenly lose a plane in a tree canopy when he's less than 300 meters in front of you. Or to see almost NOTHING on days with haze, ground fog or less than CAVU conditions. Yeah, that's real all right...real stupid. This

This is pure horsesh**. The "speckbirds" that pass for a visual system completely ignores the fact that our eyes really CAN pick up a moving object against terrain, provided we're actively searching. Our monitors, however, cannot, and that's why "speckbirds" fails. It also robs pilots of the advantage of altitude, because you often have to dive down low to have any hope of seeing *anything*, and blow all that energy you could use for maneuver or boom & zoom once you DID see that con about 2km below. "Speckbirds" is the most subtle pro-VVS bias there is in the sim, because it gives a HUGE advantage to planes in the weeds, when history shows us that altitude and stored energy trumped "low and sneaky" all the time. And history also shows us that for most of the war, the Germans used the altitude advantage almost exclusively (until Pokryskin wised up and started teaching his Cobra pilots about it).

=======================================

As for padlock, well, aside from the 3km radar "cheat", where your "Spider sense" tells you enemy must be nearby and you tap the padlock command key hoping your view will swivel to some enemy you haven't seen yourself....

well, that aside, I don't care if others use it. It's a good simulation of fixation. I'll get my views with my good old hat switch, thank you. Uh, provided I can see anything if there are no icons.

To my mind, full real includes cockpit view only, all physics settings intact, engine management, NO external view, padlock optional, and some sort of short/medium range icon setting. These settings create the type of action representative in WWII.

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 05:10 AM
Stiglr,
before you whine, upgrade your PC and monitor first. Get constant 40+ fps first and fresh monitor then come back. I really wonder what you would say then.

So many people now don't listen to excuse like yours and just seal their mouth and enjoy.

Do you think 'full real' is 'full hard'?
No, it's just still easy compared to real. Who said it's hard??!
To me, turn, turn, turn, turn and shoot shoot with ICON is far more hard and boring. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
We're just enjoying that setting.

Oh, I'm still liestening to you./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Maybe I must seal my lips too and go play in easy and funny world, so called 'full real'.

adlabs6
08-24-2003, 05:25 AM
When I posted in this thread earlier, I wondered why I was bothering to return to this again. But the issue lives on with each new player that joins us here.

I must say that threads like this tend to reveal an often unseen side of many posters. I find this aspect of reading in here more interesting than any other.

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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:22 AM
Man Jumoschwanz really put the hook into a lot of people. I am printing up this whole thread and letting some of my psychiatrist friends take a whack at it ... plenty of pathology here thats for sure!



Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 06:37 AM
Just letting off some steam.


And wanted to try and make the point that full real period is no better or worse or more real than full real with padlock. To me Full real w/padlock is the best. God bless all those who have fun on the full real servers.


There is just a bunch of talk here and there about how full real is the most real, and how track ir is more real than padlock, and I don't think those are anything more than opinions on the same level as when the majorities opinion was that the world was flat, or going to war is a way to a better world.


Most sim pilots get used to, and very good at flying with certain settings, and of course do not want to change.


I was just in a full real/padlock game in HL, vfc hosts. I was flying around bored and asked over chat "where the action was". As soon as i did this there was a P39Q above and behind me. How did he get there without me finding him with padlock? It is done all the time since the patch cut padlocks range down. It still would be nice to try it cut down to 2kilometers. Anyway he missed with his first pass, we spun around each other to the deck and I ended up on his a$$, got in position for a shot, then ran out of fuel over his base! What fun.


I gave a full real server a crack the other night to try and run with the big boys, expecting to see some real WWII action. And instead I saw a bunch of Hurri IIcs(the plane of the true moron, only in my humble opinion) driving around at fifty meters playing hide and seek. So I came here and let off some steam. Everyone takes a turn as "asshat" right? Shoot you all later in HL.

S! and have fun.

Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 07:01 AM
Stiglr wrote:
-
- But, the full realism Nazis all HATE icons. They
- think it's more realistic NOT to see a plane under
- you against the terrain, or to suddenly lose a plane
- in a tree canopy when he's less than 300 meters in
- front of you. Or to see almost NOTHING on days with
- haze, ground fog or less than CAVU conditions. Yeah,
- that's real all right...real stupid. This
-
- This is pure horsesh**. The "speckbirds" that pass
- for a visual system completely ignores the fact that
- our eyes really CAN pick up a moving object against
- terrain, provided we're actively searching. Our
- monitors, however, cannot, and that's why
- "speckbirds" fails. It also robs pilots of the
- advantage of altitude, because you often have to
- dive down low to have any hope of seeing *anything*,
- and blow all that energy you could use for maneuver
- or boom & zoom once you DID see that con about 2km
- below. "Speckbirds" is the most subtle pro-VVS bias
- there is in the sim, because it gives a HUGE
- advantage to planes in the weeds, when history shows
- us that altitude and stored energy trumped "low and
- sneaky" all the time. And history also shows us that
- for most of the war, the Germans used the altitude
- advantage almost exclusively (until Pokryskin wised
- up and started teaching his Cobra pilots about it).
-

Ever read any thing on air combat in the Eastern front? Losing aircraft against the terrain was a very common problem. That's why LW and VVS aircraft all have camo paint. That paint is heavy, adding 100-200lbs to an aircraft, and takes time to apply and maintain.

USAAF aircraft didn't use paint because we were operating at altitudes in excess of 20,000 ft where you have a giant contrail pointing right to you. Camoflage did nothing under those circumstances, so we discarded it.

Energy was always an advantage in a dogfight, but low and sneaky is what got the Il-2s onto the German tanks. Those weedwhacker's don't touch me when I'm going on airfield bombing runs at 3km either. The only time a weedwhacker is a problem, is when you are expressly hunting them. Pilots didn't do that during WWII, unless they were bomber busting.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:14 AM
Yakovlev_guy wrote:

"this is a great character statement about the mentality of the high noon yak crowd. can't tolerate anyone who don't fly the exact way they do and always have to make a point to say somehting stupid to make themselves feel bigger about themselves."

No one cares what the guy does and even fewer are interested in listening to his whining. Get a clue.

"if you don't agree with the guy, why the f@ck bother to say anything about it? what does that do for anyone?"

Then why don't YOU practice what YOU preach and say nothing?

GR142-Pipper

Hawgdog
08-25-2003, 02:24 AM
After flying this weekend, I've decided flying with everything off is the best. Cant find any servers offering unlimited ammo....well, then again, I haven't been over to UBI in some time
This is your head on UBI
http://www.makeup-fx.com/images/3D%20head%20in%20box.jpg

This is your head on Hyper Lobby
http://www.cctv.com/engchannel/tvguide/tvdigest/images/30_3_main.jpg


<center></script>Bad Dog Brigade
Vulching can be a contact sport
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.adelphia.net/~hawgdog/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

Hunter82
08-25-2003, 02:27 AM
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive7.jpg



<center><FONT COLOR="white">[/i]</FONT>
<center><FONT COLOR="white">Hunter82 wrote:
"I did not have technical relations with that question"
[/i]</FONT>
<center> Mudmovers (http://www.mudmovers.com/) </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:37 AM
Full Real= Mr. Magoo in WW2.

<img src=http://www.simops.com/graphics/wildcard.gif>

IRON SKIES
As real as you want it to be.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:25 AM
War wrote:

"Well ill tell you what if you dont like a full real server Leave. Dont play, this world is full of cryers and we dont care.
And bye the way if your ashamed to be an American get the hell out, and go to a country that you can be proud of.... hmmm where would you go? That would be an interesting answer."


Amen.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:53 AM
Next time i play im going full real. If i get a fuel leak im gonna start pouring jetA fuel on myself and if my planes catchs fire im gonna take a zippo to myself

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:27 PM
I fly using a computer - it aint real i'm tellin ya, it just ain't real.........../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/zensamurai/Madbadvlad5.jpg

'Whirlwind Whiner'
The First of the Few

Ex Ungue Leonem - 'By his claws one knows the Lion'
</center>