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View Full Version : Impressions of a Real Pony Ride ....



Persecutor_352
04-10-2009, 05:20 PM
Darkstar, one of our virtual pilots, is also a very, very lucky *real* pilot. He was recently able to fly a P-51 Crazy Horse, in blue-nosed 352nd Fighter Group livery. His flight is documented in words, images, and video here (http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0).

His comparison of the real bird to the IL2 virtual representation will be interesting.

Enjoy.

TS_Sancho
04-11-2009, 01:27 AM
Darkstar says Oleg got it right, nice.

eindecker
04-11-2009, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Darkstar says Oleg got it right, nice.

I read the text, souds like a lot of BS to me.
When I flew in the Collings P-51C they never
let me near anything aproaching a buffet let alone a stall.
I believe he flew in it, I fail to believe the BS about flight characteristics.
The P-51C was light on the controls at 300mph TAS and
turned easily with little rudder needed.
300mph IAS was reached while still in a gentle climb.
Back seat did not have a MAP gauge but was otherwise fully instrumented.
I found the ride to be a real eye opener.
Oleg screwed the pooch BIG TIME on acceleration and climb.
The old flight sim "Mig Alley" was far closer
to the truth on climb and speed for a P-51.

Eindecker

slipBall
04-11-2009, 05:59 AM
Yes, I do not think that their common sence, nor their insurance coverage, would allow a paying customer full reign of such a rare aircraft.

It's a duel control aircraft, even when you think that you have the controls, there is constant input from the pilot.

Hookecho
04-11-2009, 09:22 AM
wow......lets just pull conclusions out of our asses with out actually you know....watching the damn video.....christ...and people wonder why we call this place Ubi Zoo.

Xiolablu3
04-11-2009, 12:49 PM
Nice to hear Oleg got it pretty much right, great post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
04-11-2009, 03:23 PM
The vids are great stuff.

I did find the audio a bit funny though, but maybe this might be the way it's setup - Voices/radio on the one channel, engine noises on the other.

I also noticed DS wasn't actually 'listening to instructions' on the barrel roll.. the pilot said left roll, and he went right.

These oddities might be just due to making of the video, but in any event I enjoyed them..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

K_Freddie
04-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by eindecker:
When I flew in the Collings P-51C they never
let me near anything aproaching a buffet let alone a stall.
I believe he flew in it, I fail to believe the BS about flight characteristics.
The P-51C was light on the controls at 300mph TAS and
turned easily with little rudder needed.
Eindecker
Hmmm If I'm not mistaken.. this P-51 looked seriously like a 'D'.
Buffet zone... maybe they saw trouble a mile away... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
And that was definitely a stall, and quickly recovered from too - well done!
Not everyone is the same and DS had the pleasure of putting it into a stall
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

TS_Sancho
04-11-2009, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by eindecker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Darkstar says Oleg got it right, nice.

I read the text, souds like a lot of BS to me.
When I flew in the Collings P-51C they never
let me near anything aproaching a buffet let alone a stall.
I believe he flew in it, I fail to believe the BS about flight characteristics.
The P-51C was light on the controls at 300mph TAS and
turned easily with little rudder needed.
300mph IAS was reached while still in a gentle climb.
Back seat did not have a MAP gauge but was otherwise fully instrumented.
I found the ride to be a real eye opener.
Oleg screwed the pooch BIG TIME on acceleration and climb.
The old flight sim "Mig Alley" was far closer
to the truth on climb and speed for a P-51.

Eindecker </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because the other guys P51 pilot trusted the other guy in the backseat more than your P51 pilot trusted you in the backseat does not discredit the other guy and make him part of the the Oleg Maddox international conspiracy to pork the P51.

HuninMunin
04-11-2009, 08:44 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Nice videos.
Thanks a bunch.

wheelsup_cavu
04-11-2009, 09:49 PM
I don't think the instructor would have needed to say "Give me the airplane a second" if Darkstar wasn't flying it.
Another reason is around 8:25 of the video (DS Crazy Horse 1) you can plainly see both hands of the instructor are off of the stick while he talks DarkStar through another maneuver.

Wheelsup

danjama
04-12-2009, 07:33 AM
What a guy, a lucky lucky guy, seems like someone i could be friends with. And he didnt forget the planes history even in the air. Well done to him. Great post on his forums.

Skoshi Tiger
04-12-2009, 07:43 AM
I don't think stalls would be an insurance issue? In fact I doubt they would insure the plane if the pilots couldn't routinely recover from stalls.

I think stall recovery on type would be one of those basic things covered in getting endorsed for the plane.

TX-EcoDragon
04-12-2009, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
I don't think stalls would be an insurance issue? In fact I doubt they would insure the plane if the pilots couldn't routinely recover from stalls.

I think stall recovery on type would be one of those basic things covered in getting endorsed for the plane.


Yes! Stallion 51 doesn't simply "give rides" like some other places do, they do transition training for pilots who usually are new owners or plan to buy a 51, and they provide LOAs or Letters of Authorization which are required for a pilot seeking to fly these airplanes as PIC in the US. As such they are versed in flying and training new 51 pilots in all aspects of the flight envelope that they need to. Yes they do go a little easy on them compared to what might have been done in the olden days, but they put them through their paces, just at lower power settings, and lower Gs. It's not really that the airplanes can't handle it so much as it is a matter of cost of doing overhauls at more regular intervals is extremely high.


Also, inherent with letting a pilot try aerobatic figures in a new type is the expectation that they may encounter some accelerated stalls. . .the accelerated stalls are clearly evident in the videos during the botched barrel roll. . . I don't understand the doubting.

danjama
04-12-2009, 02:39 PM
Yea it was very cool watching the stallouts.

DrHerb
04-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Awesome set of vids. Id love to do something like that but im guessing you need at least a PPL to be able to handle the controls? That and a pretty fat wallet im imagining.

WholeHawg
04-13-2009, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Darkstar says Oleg got it right, nice.

I dont see where he says that at all.

He makes some comparisons to general flight characteristics and then admits they were not allowed to push the aircraft to its limits.

All in all I think its a very interesting ride and a well written and interesting commentary but I dont know there is a lot we can conclude as to the validity of Olegs flight model beyond what Dark Star said "Surprisingly I found roll rates and general level type flight characteristics to be pretty much what we experience with the P51"

and....

"More Extreme Handling Issues - you know how all the new gamers, and the rest of us complain of the 51 snapping out on hard breaks into a spin or accelerated stall compared to most planes in the game, and with patience and a gentler hand it really can be a fun plane to fly ?? Well, it really is a bit touchy in that department but when you are in the real thing you feel it coming on and can recover and work with it in the manuever; ie; an acceraleted break or two I had early on in the rolls."

So infer what you like from this, I personally will just sit back and be jealous of DarkStar for getting to have this little adventure and thank him for sharing his video and his comments and not bash him or use this as some opportunity to prove that the P51 in I2 is or isnt accurate.

I got news for all you guys out there. None of the planes in this game are 100% accurate, not one, 0, zipp, nada, and they never will be.

So I say "Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who. We are here today to witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond of the holy wedlock. Unfortunately, one of them, my son Herbert, has just fallen to his death."

Hookecho
04-13-2009, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by DrHerb:
Awesome set of vids. Id love to do something like that but im guessing you need at least a PPL to be able to handle the controls? That and a pretty fat wallet im imagining.

From the Stallion 51 web page....

Stallion 51 Corporation offers various Orientation Flight Programs and whether you come to us with little or no flight experience, we promise a rare and exhilarating experience. The entire program takes approximately 2 to 3 hours. The instructor will begin with a thorough preflight briefing where he will outline the flight profile, seeking the input from the guest and customizing the best flight profile for their given experience level. Once in flight, the guest will be invited to do the majority of the flying themselves, from basic maneuvering to high performance aerobatics and normally into the "break" for landing. Following the flight, a debrief occurs where you will review the video of your flight from our state-of-the-art, on-board camera system.


I believe he told me it was $3000 for about a 1 hour check flight, and 1 hour of preflight and 1 hour of post flight. To get fully FAA certified in the pony would be about $40,000 with their program, but if your already buying a Mustang, $40K is a drop in the bucket.

Also, it cost about $1500 a day for a Pony, even if it isnt flying when you add ramp, fuel, airframe maintenance and 100 hour overhuals of the Merlin.

DarkStar_352nd
04-13-2009, 08:23 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yes, I'm a very Lucky Guy to have gotten time a P 51 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hook told me of this post, and after reading, it apparently has engendered some controversy. . . so I thought I would register and add a few comments to the postings over on our 352nd website.

First, concerning my flying background, I learned from carrier and crop duster pilots at Hunter Field, Sparta <SAR> and Spirit of St Louis <SUS> since I was 15. Have over 800 hours in about 30 different aircraft, including tailwheel Decathalon 180 hp for some acro. Instrument rated. Among my pilot friends I have always been a pretty good stick and rudder man.

Second, Stallion 51 www.Stallion51.com (http://www.Stallion51.com) is a professional flight training facility and also offers what you might call non-pilot joyrides. My check pilot John, with over 17000 hours was there to show me some things about the plane, back me up on manuevers (not to assist on controls), and generally make my day enjoyable. I had no idea I would have the chance to try a landing in such an expensive bird - and sure he would have taken it away from me in a heartbeat if I strayed off center and approach.

Since I have a professional CFI endorsement NOW in my logbook from him attesting to a/c familiarization, stalls, slow flight, various rolls - loops and landing to a full stop - logged as instructional time for FAA purposes. . .I think that puts to rest who did the flying parts. Like I told "HellCat" ( the callsign I gave my wife) "If thats the last hour I ever get in my logbook. . it doesn't get any better than that"

I'm glad everyone is enjoying the vids, controversy or not, it was a beautiful day and the plane was humping thru the sky. I personally have always been used to having inverted 0 - neg G's when I am over the top in loops (makes 'em prettier)and lots of top
rudder in rolls in a Decathalon (makes 'em straighter) -- but I had spads on the aielerons and light plane at 180 mph or so.

The reasonable stress limitations for a 60 yr old bird for an introductory hour still provided a tremendous opportunity to explore parts of the flight envelope. . .and some of the accel stalls and sloshing thru a few rolls were the result of learning to set the manuevers up high and let the nose fall thru the whole thing to keep a 1/2 postive g or so on the butt. Once I got that a few times I think I did pretty good from my own standards viewpoint. While I did find the control forces heavier than I imagined, they were easily trimmed and very, very precise.

This TF 51 D was converted from a p51D taking out the center fuel tank. The rear cockpit is pretty complete to the front with the exception of some of the nav gauges/gps and some of the switches/breakers. Otherwise it was all there and in it's more or less proper place.

CONCERNING THE GAME AND REAL PLANES - all the pilots on this earth will tell you any sim game like this has limitations, but can still provide some useful cross experiences to the real world - I'll tell you on the landing, if I hadn't been used to the 51 cockpit in the game and "very general" flight, speed and sink rate characteristics, I probably would have had my head buried in the cockpit searching for things while very busy outside - as Martha would say "not a good thing" and probably would have resulted in John doing the landing.

Remember, I was under 10,000 on and 80 degree day and didn't have a chance to explore the entire envelope - as a way of comparing to this game of Oleg's - I'm sure the p51 is porked in this game in several places, as are all the planes in their own ways - but the game is enjoyable and of course the real planes from a 152 to a p51 are enjoyable.

Ie: if I set up a 55in man pr / 2400 rpm climb and pitch to 190 kias, I get genrally 1500-2000 fpm climb - similar in the real 51 / if I set up 38 in man pr and 22-2300 rpm I'get approx 230 kias, similar also. Roll/Pull rates in the game seem a bit quicker, but then we don't have the G and body limitations on plane and pilot in a game that we have in the air.

I really can't, or know how, to reposnd to the game vs real part as I've never viewed them as having to be the same. I enjoy both immensely.

I will say that Oleg's game is the best around and for many years and provides those of us in squadrons a chance to set up cooperative things that honor the real pilots and their histories -

And yes, it is very expensive to fly Mustangs of any stripe, just the 500 hour engine overhaul is 100,000, and that's if nothing goes wrong. I was very fortunate to get this rare chance and glad to share what ever part of this is of interest to anyone with the community. Please go to
http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0 if you would like to ask a question about something

Hey, do you think that guy who flew the "C" in the above post got a Joy-Ride instead of a Pilot Training Ride ?? Maybe that's his confusion - LOL



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif YOU KNOW I REALLY LIKE SHOOTING AT YOU GUYS --- ALL OF YOU http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

slipBall
04-13-2009, 09:02 AM
Great to read your story. I'm glad that you had the chance of a lifetime to enjoy that fine bird

crucislancer
04-13-2009, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by DarkStar_352nd:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yes, I'm a very Lucky Guy to have gotten time a P 51 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


That is an understatement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I really enjoyed the videos, and your post at the other forum gave me a few thoughts about flying the P-51 in game.

Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

X32Wright
04-13-2009, 11:18 AM
That's wonderful! I am glad that your experience Darksatr is similar to Miss Strega's recollections http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and that Oleg did a good job wiht the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I always knew that Miss Strega was right as well as Oleg's implementationhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Congrats on your flight!

Freelansir1941
04-13-2009, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
That's wonderful! I am glad that your experience Darksatr is similar to Miss Strega's recollections http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and that Oleg did a good job wiht the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I always knew that Miss Strega was right as well as Oleg's implementationhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Congrats on your flight!

Not sure of your meaning of Miss Strega's experience but I followed it closely.

Her last two postings puzzled me.


by MissStrega on Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:34 am

Disregard all the above.

Apparently I have no CLUE how to fly this airplane.

Not sure she is joking or not. But she does make one last post before ending the subject.



by MissStrega on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:56 am

Well, considering that there is alot more force required to stall/spin a Mustang in the real world, I find it entirely too easy to depart in the game using reasonable stick input.
While I was forced to keep the pressure at a max of 30" I found the airplane to be quite easy to fly. I must add that takeoff and landing were a different matter altogether.
All in all, considering the amount of time devoted to coding the Pony, I am happy with it in IL2. And YES, it is porked in the aerodynamics department. Ask any Pony pilot who has flown this sim and they will tell you the same.

Until somebody allows a game developer to install sensors and a recorder in the surviving aircraft, and allow them to be 'Wrung Out' we might never experience the REAL DEAL.
Nothing in this game can portray the feeling I got when I eased the nose over at 225MPH and took the airspeed up to 350, then looped up to 15k and back down again from 6500AGL. I lost 700 feet of alt in that loop. What I did get was an adrenalin rush like I'd never experienced before. No game can capture that unfortunately.

Stregs

Anyway, nice videos and nice memories DarkStar !