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vongreim
08-31-2007, 08:41 AM
I consider myself a huge fan of Il-2 from the very first "Sturmovik" release until the 1946 release which I fly one mission almost every night.

BUT there is one nagging thing that annoys me about the fact that Il-2 is the premier flight sim. It is really simply a pure flight sim, and not a PILOT sim.

The golden oldies, if anyone here is old enough to remember, like Lucasfilms Battle of Britian (BoB) or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (SWOTL) are examples that show what could further be put into a PILOT sim, that would take place when back at base between missions. But they were obviously quite simple since the ol' 386 wasn't exactly the barn burner of a CPU.

I mean just imagine a game with the flight characteristics of the present Il-2 1946 engine, BUT add to that a realistic role playing part of being the Geschwader Kommodore, or being even a rookie pilot. As a Geschwader Kommodore, there is a whole range of things that could be modelled giving the game a little more of a "real life" experience. Like managing the dispersal of sub Grueppen, lobbying for certain upgrades from the RLM desk jockeys, even perhaps recieving contact reports and then designing and launching the appropriate missions yourself as a real Kommodore would do. And in homage to SWOTL, wouldn't it be cool to control instead of merely your own aircraft, to have a say in the grand strategic outlook? Like having control over Aircraft production and then having the results show up in the dynamic campaign a few months or year(s) later? In addition, having like a pilot locker with all the menus, and then a dispersal room, (modelled like those of the time, with grammophone, fireplace, (or in Russia, perhaps a commandeered barn or stable) where you could have inane conversations with fellow pilots or your commanding officer about what is going on in the dynamic campaign.


These are all just examples of how a computer designer could make the experience more immersive. It seems to me that nobody even cares about this stuff, but I distinctly remember how could certain aspects of SWOTL was, BOTH for the Allies and Axis, in targeting certain industrial sites, or in organizing the Luftwaffe defense and production. Its a shame that Il-2 or ANY others game doesn't build on THAT, instead of just concentrating on making the flight and damage models even more accurate than in real life!!!

Does anyone here agree with me?

regards
Jan

AKA_TAGERT
08-31-2007, 08:46 AM
welcome to 2002

The sad truth is.. offline play has taken a back seat to online play.

Not saying that is the way it should be.. just that is the way it is

As time goes by.. I think we will see a merger of the two.. Where you get well thought out campaigns.. Only you will be playing them online and not offline.

We can only hope..

In that I still remember how exciting it was the FIRST time an ACE challenged me to a 1 on 1 dual in Red Baron I.. Back than I really thought that was something! Especially when he would show up with a buddy or two to help him out!

As for the strat stuff of SWOTL..

Enh.. It was neat.. but I never made use of it.. I honestly think the $ could have been better spent elseware.. Most true sim jockeys I know are not into the strat stuff of the whole war.. Note I said most not all! Most I know are happy with being the leader of a sqd of planes going into battle..

I do miss the pilot locker rooms and the BAR in AOTP after a mission.. I do think getting to know your wingies.. virtual or not is great for immersion.. but there are limits.. I don't want to see it go as far as a SIMS environment.. Again would rather see the $ spent on the FLIGHT aspects.. If I want strat Ill play a RPS if I want inane conversations I would play THE SIMS.

Long story short..

I DON'T WANT IT ALL!

I DON'T EVEN WANT THE OPTION OF IT ALL!

In that putting in those options would just takes time and money away from the FLIGHT ASPECTS OF IT ALL IMHO.

The FACT is in the real world (limited time and money) when you try to do it all.. You end up with something that does a lot of things 'WELL' but no one thing 'GREAT'.

And Oleg knows this! And it shows! In that the offline play and AI in IL2 is the worst I have seen in years! You can tell Oleg's focus was in the right place..

FLIGHT 1st
ONLINE 2nd
REST 3rd

That and you need a nitch (aka foot in the door).. Oleg's nitch was he initally he filled a void by focusing on the ground attack aspects that no flight sim had done well prior to or sence IL2.

That is to say flight simmers demand the FLIGHT to be 'GREAT' where everything else is secondary!

A smart sim maker would blow his whole wad on making a great flight sim FIRST..

BUT..

Do it in such a way as to make it 'modular' so 'other' aspects could be added later, or tied in with some other stand alone game.. Just encase the FLIGHT aspects/simming turns out to be a hit.

My opinion is based on 20+ years of playing flight sims

JadehawkII
08-31-2007, 08:57 AM
This game has been around for 6 years now. Most of what we got was never ment to be as Oleg made this sim to be just about the Il-2 ground attack airplane.

It's quite amazing how far they took the game engine to do what it currently does. But like all good things, this game will too pass and if your not up to date, you should know they are working on a totally new flight sim series.

It's called Storm of War with the first of the series called Battle of Britian. Totally new game engine, so expect to see lots of different things to pop up.
They also have been really tight liped about it all, no updates in months about all this. Let's hope they will have something to tell us soon.

TimTam27
08-31-2007, 09:22 AM
Simple answer if you want to control the operations of the battle. Get Battle of Britain II: Wings of Victory and patch it up to version 2.06.

The campaign engine in BOBII:WOV is fantastic. You are in control of either the RAF or Luftwaffe for the entire battle of Britain. On the RAF side you set up patrols or scramble your squadrons to deal with the incoming threats. On the Luftwaffe side you decide what, when and where to attack. How many bombers, how many escorts. And when the enemies meet, jump into the cockpit and fight it out.
You can let the computer do as much or as little as you like. You can micro-manage it down to take off times and waypoints.


There is no doubt that Il2 is the best sim for online but IMHO, BoBII:WOV is a far superior offline experience. The campaign engine, hundreds of aircraft in the sky at one, good flight model, terrific AI and while not as pretty as IL2, for me the environment somehow seems more real. (Not as many giant meandering rivers maybe?)

Until Oleg's BoB sim comes along, give BoBII:WOV a try, I think you'll like it.



Cheers

Divine-Wind
08-31-2007, 10:23 AM
Yup, Battle of Britian (Haven't acquired BoB II yet) is fantastic, even with today's flight sims. I've got to get Wings of Victory so I can see what 6DOF feels like... Must be great to not lose your target under the engine or behind the canopy frames...

neural_dream
08-31-2007, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by vongreim:
I consider myself a huge fan of Il-2 from the very first "Sturmovik" release until the 1946 release which I fly one mission almost every night.

BUT there is one nagging thing that annoys me about the fact that Il-2 is the premier flight sim. It is really simply a pure flight sim, and not a PILOT sim.

The golden oldies, if anyone here is old enough to remember, like Lucasfilms Battle of Britian (BoB) or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (SWOTL) are examples that show what could further be put into a PILOT sim, that would take place when back at base between missions. But they were obviously quite simple since the ol' 386 wasn't exactly the barn burner of a CPU.

I mean just imagine a game with the flight characteristics of the present Il-2 1946 engine, BUT add to that a realistic role playing part of being the Geschwader Kommodore, or being even a rookie pilot. As a Geschwader Kommodore, there is a whole range of things that could be modelled giving the game a little more of a "real life" experience. Like managing the dispersal of sub Grueppen, lobbying for certain upgrades from the RLM desk jockeys, even perhaps recieving contact reports and then designing and launching the appropriate missions yourself as a real Kommodore would do. And in homage to SWOTL, wouldn't it be cool to control instead of merely your own aircraft, to have a say in the grand strategic outlook? Like having control over Aircraft production and then having the results show up in the dynamic campaign a few months or year(s) later? In addition, having like a pilot locker with all the menus, and then a dispersal room, (modelled like those of the time, with grammophone, fireplace, (or in Russia, perhaps a commandeered barn or stable) where you could have inane conversations with fellow pilots or your commanding officer about what is going on in the dynamic campaign.


These are all just examples of how a computer designer could make the experience more immersive. It seems to me that nobody even cares about this stuff, but I distinctly remember how could certain aspects of SWOTL was, BOTH for the Allies and Axis, in targeting certain industrial sites, or in organizing the Luftwaffe defense and production. Its a shame that Il-2 or ANY others game doesn't build on THAT, instead of just concentrating on making the flight and damage models even more accurate than in real life!!!

Does anyone here agree with me?

regards
Jan
The game you are looking for is wwiionline. If you want to organise the air defence of your country you will have to go up in the ranks of course. In the beginning you will start as a lowly recruit pilot with access only to your own aircraft and in fact only to the most obsolete in your airforce.
However, it is online only, and some people are put off by this.

Blood_Splat
08-31-2007, 10:41 AM
I threw in the towel with WWII online after six years. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

neural_dream
08-31-2007, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
I threw in the towel with WWII online after six years. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif
Me too. Quit this summer. What were you playing? I was "dokhan", French Rifleman.

crucislancer
08-31-2007, 11:51 AM
Great post, vongreim. That was one of the great things that Lucasarts brought to the table, among others, the experience of being part of the conflict, living the life.

I think IL-2 does have some of this, though, but not enough of it. Offline campaign builders have done a really awesome job on some of the briefing text, and that helps. FlatSpinMan's Luftwaffe Pilot series, for instance, has a great story to go with the campaign. I enjoy reading the missions briefings each and every time.

Perhaps SoW will be more immersive in that aspect.

flox
08-31-2007, 02:07 PM
I agree with the vongreim too-- such things would make this sim much, much more enjoyable. Right now the sim does a LOT of things extremely well (the flight model, graphics, visual effects, and so on) but is completely lacking in others. Yes I realize that the sim wasn't originally intended to go for this long, but that doesn't change what it does well and what it doesn't do so well.

Even going back to the original Dynamix Red Baron game there were some features that I very much enjoyed, such as what have already been mentioned. Even something as simple as a pic of your aerodrome behind the main menu was more immersive IMO. That and things such as the ability to request a transfer to another squadron really made me feel like I had a real "life" as a pilot. HUGE plus if you ask me.

Finally, welcome to the boards vongreim!!

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-31-2007, 03:26 PM
"The core of a solid flight sim boils down to historical accuracy, sophisticated physics modeling, and detailed representation of all internal systems and armaments. According to our own research and extensive polling, all the preflight bells and whistles like full-motion video and cut-scenes are only important to a very small number of fans. Flight sims that emphasize storylines over features dont stay on the market long." -Oleg Maddox

S!

AKA_TAGERT
08-31-2007, 03:44 PM
bingo

okb001
08-31-2007, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by vongreim:
The golden oldies, if anyone here is old enough to remember, like Lucasfilms Battle of Britian (BoB) or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (SWOTL) are examples that show what could further be put into a PILOT sim, that would take place when back at base between missions. But they were obviously quite simple since the ol' 386 wasn't exactly the barn burner of a CPU.

ah the good old days ... They did have a whole dimension that isn't really part of IL2 ... :-( Microprose's "Knight of the Sky", anyone? The late 80s, early 90' was the golden age for flight sims.

SeaFireLIV
08-31-2007, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by vongreim:
I consider myself a huge fan of Il-2 from the very first "Sturmovik" release until the 1946 release which I fly one mission almost every night.

BUT there is one nagging thing that annoys me about the fact that Il-2 is the premier flight sim. It is really simply a pure flight sim, and not a PILOT sim.

The golden oldies, if anyone here is old enough to remember, like Lucasfilms Battle of Britian (BoB) or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (SWOTL) are examples that show what could further be put into a PILOT sim, that would take place when back at base between missions. But they were obviously quite simple since the ol' 386 wasn't exactly the barn burner of a CPU.

I mean just imagine a game with the flight characteristics of the present Il-2 1946 engine, BUT add to that a realistic role playing part of being the Geschwader Kommodore, or being even a rookie pilot. As a Geschwader Kommodore, there is a whole range of things that could be modelled giving the game a little more of a "real life" experience. Like managing the dispersal of sub Grueppen, lobbying for certain upgrades from the RLM desk jockeys, even perhaps recieving contact reports and then designing and launching the appropriate missions yourself as a real Kommodore would do. And in homage to SWOTL, wouldn't it be cool to control instead of merely your own aircraft, to have a say in the grand strategic outlook? Like having control over Aircraft production and then having the results show up in the dynamic campaign a few months or year(s) later? In addition, having like a pilot locker with all the menus, and then a dispersal room, (modelled like those of the time, with grammophone, fireplace, (or in Russia, perhaps a commandeered barn or stable) where you could have inane conversations with fellow pilots or your commanding officer about what is going on in the dynamic campaign.


These are all just examples of how a computer designer could make the experience more immersive. It seems to me that nobody even cares about this stuff, but I distinctly remember how could certain aspects of SWOTL was, BOTH for the Allies and Axis, in targeting certain industrial sites, or in organizing the Luftwaffe defense and production. Its a shame that Il-2 or ANY others game doesn't build on THAT, instead of just concentrating on making the flight and damage models even more accurate than in real life!!!

Does anyone here agree with me?

regards
Jan

I agree to most of this. It`s omething i`ve alwasy wanted to - the HUMAN facter.

I have found a lot of simulation games (not jusy in flight sims, but other sims like SH4) do simply focus on the technical side almost exclusively. They seem to forget that it`s not just the machine but the person and his experiences around his plane (job). Not just for the player but to a lesser extent to the AI too - why not have mini dynamic life of each AI pilot that at least could play out on a character sheet for the player to view?

I used to post up about stuff like this, but found a lot of resistance. Some seem scared that their sim will become an arcade game if human elements were added. My enthusiasm waned since I feel like it`ll never happen.

I can almost guarantee while Oleg`s sim will be technically perfect, the `human element` will be sadly lacking if tried offline - that is the feeling of being in more than a sterilic plane in a sterilic goldfish bowl.

AKA_TAGERT
08-31-2007, 06:42 PM
The problem with the human factor is it changes from one human to the next. Some would love it others would hate it.

Spinnetti
08-31-2007, 07:40 PM
I'd just be happy to see the pilots body in the cockpit!

SeaFireLIV
08-31-2007, 08:16 PM
.
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
The problem with the human factor is it changes from one human to the next. Some would love it others would hate it.

Well, I meant adding the Human facter or perhaps a better word would be, the human element to the sim.

We should have a marriage of the Human side of flying a warbird in WWII with the techical expertise of the simulated aircraft. I can see it only being difficult due to resources ( half the dev crew would probably be needed to do a good job for immersion), but as for people resisting, there`s no need.

Flying a Spitfire, P-51 or La-5 isn`t just about flying a technically perfect aircraft against other aircraft thru perfect skies. The immersive aspects are always left out and the human element only provided by online, which often isn`t even immersive. A lot of Humans in online IL2 just don`t fly in mind of a WWII fighter pilot.

I dunno, some talk so much about flight sims and want everything perfect and yet can`t figure out that in the real world, the object of the sim is only one part of the sim itself.

neural_dream
08-31-2007, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Spinnetti:
I'd just be happy to see the pilots body in the cockpit!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

f.ip2
08-31-2007, 08:52 PM
vongreim

the best answer is this one:


winUAE and "Their finest hour - The Battle of Britain".


I quite enjoyed it few days ago. So simple to fly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Grand_Armee
08-31-2007, 10:01 PM
All I want is a sim that makes me feel like I'm in a plane. TrackIR helps tons... BUT ...I feel like my hair is glued to the headrest and my true sense of perspective is wrong. I feel that in places where I should have a 270 degree field I get 180. Usually where I'm supposed to get 180 degrees, I get 180. But it's those moves made with a tilt of the head or a drop of the shoulder that we don't have that drive me bonkers.

AKA_TAGERT
08-31-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Well, I meant adding the Human facter or perhaps a better word would be, the human element to the sim.
I knew/know what you meant when I said what i said.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
We should have a marriage of the Human side of flying a warbird in WWII with the techical expertise of the simulated aircraft.
If what you are proposing is THE SIMS of FLIGHT SIMS.. Thanks but no thanks.. Anything beyond the pre and post mission meetings would be a waste of time and money IMHO. I don't need to know what it is like living in a tent to appreciate the flight sim.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I can see it only being difficult due to resources ( half the dev crew would probably be needed to do a good job for immersion), but as for people resisting, there`s no need.
Yes the real world economics of it all tends to force guys like Oleg to do what he did.. Focus on the important aspects of a flight sim.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Flying a Spitfire, P-51 or La-5 isn`t just about flying a technically perfect aircraft against other aircraft thru perfect skies.
Not the only thing.. Just the only thing that really maters.. Without it the best simulated coffee in the best simulated tent on the best simulated winder day on your way to the best simulated pre-flight briefing wouldn't mater if the flight sim itself sucks.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The immersive aspects are always left out and the human element only provided by online, which often isn`t even immersive. What might be immersion to one person may not be immersion to another.. Goes back to my original statement.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
A lot of Humans in online IL2 just don`t fly in mind of a WWII fighter pilot.
true of every flight sim really.. no real fear of death affects all aspects of simming


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I dunno, some talk so much about flight sims and want everything perfect and yet can`t figure out that in the real world, the object of the sim is only one part of the sim itself.
Not the only part.. Just the only part that really maters. Without it the best simulated coffee in the best simulated tent on the best simulated winder day on your way to the best simulated pre-flight briefing wouldn't mater if the flight sim itself sucks.

trumper
09-02-2007, 04:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If it was possible this is what i would like,
Imagine sitting on a chair outside in the sun .The birds are singing in the sky and the trees are rustling gently in the wind.
An engine starts up in the distance and runs up ,pops ,crackles then pops again and shuts down.You can hear the voices of the fitters and mechanics conversing in that direction.
Phone rings in the hut beside you,everything goes deathly quiet except for one voice on this end of the phone,all you can hear is "yes ,yes,mmmm," your pulse rate has gone up twofold [maybe a soundwave can be used to simulate that].
It has become the longest second of your life,doors slam,is this the last time you will feel the earth beneath your feet,feel the sun on your face ,hear the birds singing,

>
>
>
Thats now up to you and the script and "human " factor in this sim.
I think there's room to expand beyond the pure flight only sim to a more rounded experience.
Just my tuppenceworth and wishful thinking http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neural_dream
09-02-2007, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
A lot of Humans in online IL2 just don`t fly in mind of a WWII fighter pilot.
true of every flight sim really.. no real fear of death affects all aspects of simming </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would be very happy to see a DID (Dead is Dead) server. That's how many play offline (stop a campaign if dead) and I believe would become popular in an online server too.

SeaFireLIV
09-02-2007, 05:29 AM
This breaking down every sentence I say is annoying and having to respond to each bit is even more annoying, but I don`t like people trying to re-arrange what I said, so...



Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
I knew/know what you meant when I said what i said.


No you do not. You said...


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
The problem with the human factor is it changes from one human to the next. Some would love it others would hate it.


Here you are saying how you feel other PLAYERS would feel about the sim if it were the way I described it - That`s not what i`m talking about. I am saying that the Sim needs an element that takes it away from the robotic non-human feel so as to feel more HUMAN in play. Of course some Users may like it and others may not, that`s not my point.

Don`t try to tell me what i`m saying. Read what i`m saying.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Flying a Spitfire, P-51 or La-5 isn`t just about flying a technically perfect aircraft against other aircraft thru perfect skies.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Not the only thing.. Just the only thing that really maters.. Without it the best simulated coffee in the best simulated tent on the best simulated winder day on your way to the best simulated pre-flight briefing wouldn't mater if the flight sim itself sucks.

Of course, the focus of the sim should be correctly portrayed (the aircraft, the tank, the sub), but the immediate world about it should not be exempt. This is what creates the `gold fish bowl` sterilic feeling. A new screen featuring a tent background and animated hot coffee with options to choose pilots and make squadron decisions. Perhaps you should go check out Silent hunter 4 - You get an HQ office, chance to allocate choose men for the job, a radio, an old fashioned record player (that plays any music in that scratchy 1930s way), a picture frame for your own personal pin-up and the sarcastic simulated coffee. Also Silent Hunter manages to include something so simple as realistic seagulls flying about your sub! Why not the odd view of birds in flight sims too? Of course SH4 is limited too especially in that there`s almost no interaction with your crew.

More to this of course could be added, expanding the off duty feel. Again, through scenes with background view of the world you`re in when not flying. And, no, I`m not going to waste time with more examples.

AKA_TAGERT
09-02-2007, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This breaking down every sentence I say is annoying
Too bad for you.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
and having to respond to each bit is even more annoying,
Having to respond?

Just so you know.. that person holding that gun to your head..

That is not me.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
but I don`t like people trying to re-arrange what I said, so...
re-arrange?

Nothing was re-arranged, it is all in the same sequence of your original post.

On that note, there are several reasons I quote everything and respond to each separately. One, respect for what the person said.. I take the time to respond to everything they said.. Not just the parts I like or parts I have answers for but everything. Two to capture what they said, in that a lot of folks say something, and than later try to say they didn't say it.. Some even go as far as to del what they originally said.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
No you do not. You said...
Yes I do.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
The problem with the human factor is it changes from one human to the next. Some would love it others would hate it.


Here you are saying how you feel other PLAYERS would feel about the sim if it were the way I described it - That`s not what i`m talking about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Close..

But wrong!

What I am pointing out to you is basic human nature..

That no mater what 'human factor' you add to the sim some will like it and some with not..

NOTE I said No mater what 'human factor' you add..

Not just your description of a 'human factor' feature.

Why?

Because everyone has an idea of a 'human factor' to add..

Which is nothing but their/your opinion!


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I am saying that the Sim needs an element that takes it away from the robotic non-human feel so as to feel more HUMAN in play.
Need an element?

Wrong again!

They don't need it!

Oleg's research even showed they don't need it!

And IL2 proves a sim does not need it to be popular!

Would it be nice?

Sure!

But need?

No.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Of course some Users may like it and others may not, that`s not my point.
But it was my point!

Now pretend for a moment you live in the real world.. Where time and money are finite.. And you plan on making a flight sim.. What are you going to do first? Work on the human factors, or the flight sim? I assume you would work on the flight sim first! That is the problem with the real world.. it is real! Oleg knows this an decided to put all his time and money into the flight sim aspects of his flight sim. In that spending time and money on something that only some may enjoy is not a smart business move. Best thing to do is spend all your time and money on the things that bring flight simmers to a flight sim in the first place.. FLIGHT! Long story short, 'human factors' are icing on the cake.. without a cake to put the icing on you would get pretty sick of the icing after just a few bites.



Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Don`t try to tell me what i`m saying. Read what i`m saying.
I did, see above. Where I provided you more detail on what I original said to you.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Of course, the focus of the sim should be correctly portrayed (the aircraft, the tank, the sub),
But you said..


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
isn`t just about flying a technically perfect aircraft against other aircraft thru perfect skies
Even though that is all IL2 is about..

You know..

IL2 one of the, if not the most popular combat flight sim ever made.

The one with ZIP NADA ZILTCH 'human factor' of which you speak.

Which should tell you something about the 'NEED' for 'human factors' in a flight sim.

It ain't!


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
but the immediate world about it should not be exempt.
Should not.. but it typically is the first thing to go!

On that note, I forget the name of the sims.. it was back in the late 90s.. but they tried to add some 'human factors' to the sim.. A basic scripted story line that you had to manage your way through. Lot's of interaction with the other characters..

They failed miserably.

I'm sure Oleg took that into account when he made IL2, and even if Oleg never heard of those sims it is clear from HaVoK's quote of Oleg that Oleg realized the un-importance of the 'human factor' wrt a popular flight sim.. That being without the BASICS the rest does not mater.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This is what creates the `gold fish bowl` sterilic feeling.
I'm sure it does for some people.. People that have trouble dispelling belive and limited imagination. You know the types, that wait to see the movie instead of reading the book.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
A new screen featuring a tent background and animated hot coffee with options to choose pilots and make squadron decisions.
Again, all neat stuff that I personally would like!

Just not NEEDED for the sim to be successful!

A picture of a briefing room prior to a mission with you other pilots sitting around is cool.. But I don't want to see much beyond that! That is to say I do not NEED nor WANT the ability to get up and leave the briefing room and walk back to my tent in FPS mode and have inane conversation with other people along the way and a bar to hang out in or a girl to talk to. IMHO that time and money would be better spent on fixing Fw190 cockpit gun sights or adding duel throttle settings for P38 like planes! And that is probably the way it will allays be for flight sims! There is allays something more you can do to improve the FLIGHT aspects of the flight sim over adding some dim witted interaction with some simulated engine mechanic in some simulated mechanics tent. That kind of stuff is for the shut ins of this world that need some form of human interaction because they are too scared to go outside and talk to real people.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Perhaps you should go check out Silent hunter 4 - You get an HQ office, chance to allocate choose men for the job, a radio, an old fashioned record player (that plays any music in that scratchy 1930s way), a picture frame for your own personal pin-up and the sarcastic simulated coffee. Also Silent Hunter manages to include something so simple as realistic seagulls flying about your sub! Why not the odd view of birds in flight sims too? Of course SH4 is limited too especially in that there`s almost no interaction with your crew.
All neat stuff that I would welcome!

But if I found out that the DAMAGE MODEL was dumb down because they ran out of time and money...

Than that simulated coffee and 1930s music would be a constant reminder of what I got in place of a more detailed DM..

Which would piss me off..


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
More to this of course could be added, expanding the off duty feel.
NO!

That is the problem with all this stuff.. Someone allays wants to turn it into THE SIMS!

Which is probably why Oleg did none of that.. In that no mater how much you do.. Someone will allays want more.



Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Again, through scenes with background view of the world you`re in when not flying. And, no, I`m not going to waste time with more examples.
Thank god!

All in all I am not against adding some human factor elements..

Just not willing to give up anything for it!

Thus I think the best thing a flight sim maker could do is spend just a little time and money adding the ability to included 3rd party addons that deal with the NON-FLIGHT aspects. That way guys that don't give a rip about chatting up some simulated girl in some simulated coffee shop don't have the buy that addon.

Than the 13 guys (aka nerds) who need that addon can buy it from the 14th guy who made it (aka king of the nerds).

This would allow the flight sim maker to spend all of his time and money on what he does best..

FLIGHT..

While at the same time allowing shut ins to spend all their time and money on what they do best..

CHAT UP SIMULATED CHICKS..

As in "Hey baby.. see my plane parked outside? See all them kills I got? Want to go out with me tonight?"

jarkko2004
09-02-2007, 09:18 AM
All in all I am not aginst adding some human factor elements.. Just not willing to give up anything for it! Thus I think the best thing a flight sim maker could do is spend just a little time and money adding the ability to included 3rd party addons that deal with the NON-FLIGHT aspects. That way guys that don't give a rip about chatting up some simulated girl in some simulated coffee shop don't have the buy the that addon. Than the 13 or so guys in this world who need that addon can buy it from the 14th guy who knows how to program and made the addon. This would allow the flight sim maker to spend all of his time and money on what he does best.. FLIGHT.. While at the same time allowing shut ins to spend all their time and moeny doing what they do best.. Chat up simulated chicks.

Tha ones who pay the development costs are offline players (most of the games are bought by them) and they want candy for their eyes, they give a **** to human factor(just like me) What I think is that Oleg should give a chance to 3rd party developers and then we could see this game live (with human factor [or not],if You want to download one) for 25 years.

AKA_TAGERT
09-02-2007, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by jarkko2004:
Tha ones who pay the development costs are offline players (most of the games are bought by them)
Maybe maybe not..

No real figures on that to say one way or another.


Originally posted by jarkko2004:
and they want candy for their eyes, they give a **** to human factor(just like me)
Yes graphics are important..

But even the best graphics and simulated coffee shops with simulated girls to talk to will not make up for a bad flight model


Originally posted by jarkko2004:
What I think is that Oleg should give a chance to 3rd party developers and then we could see this game live (with human factor [or not], if You want to download one)
Is what I said


Originally posted by jarkko2004:
for 25 years.
No way.

mortoma
09-02-2007, 03:00 PM
I thought the RB series had a lot of immersion and atmosphere ( but WWI, not II ) compared to IL2 series. Actually, IL2 is one the worse sims ever for immersion, especially for offline play.

SeaFireLIV
09-02-2007, 04:03 PM
I knew it was pointless even showing you the partial respect of responding to you. Your not even interested about the subject at hand really, but more a barely disguised chance to fly some personal venom against me. Aye, you`ve never forgiven me for making that joke a while ago. So childish for someone the age of an adult.

I guess your words are a little more eloquent in your veiled patronisation this time round... fewer F... U, over and over again, but still the same pent up twistedness inside rubbish that makes you think that all your life is worth is making stupid long responses instead of just being honest and saying, "Yea, I, Mr. tagert is wrong!"

You`d probably have to be committed if you had to admit that at least once.

I`ll not waste any more good time on you again. Sit in your mire.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
09-02-2007, 06:28 PM
Chill out guys. Tag, you belligerent fecker - tell me you wouldn't like this animated in SOW/BoB. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/iviewcapture_date_03_03_2006_time_2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF4.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF5.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF6.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF7.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/WAAF8.jpg

DuxCorvan
09-03-2007, 12:20 AM
Well, I'm waiting. Where are the last pics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

stubby
09-03-2007, 07:35 AM
[/QUOTE]I would be very happy to see a DID (Dead is Dead) server. That's how many play offline (stop a campaign if dead) and I believe would become popular in an online server too.[/QUOTE]

This perhaps is the single biggest element that makes the sim truly immersive. Atmosphere, surroundings, eye candy, sounds, etc... all are critical in helping the mind get into 'character' but playing DID, that's the magic bullet. Online is worhtless for the most part because 99% of the guys flying treat the experience like a death match session in Quake. I've had fun experiences online don't get me wrong but it's the offline DID campaigns that I've flown that have proved to be the most hair raising, white knuckler affairs of them all. Now if there was a large pool of online pilots that flew with survival being their biggest objective vs racking up kills and shooting over peoples shoulders, I might view online differently. As it stands now, only offline DID offers the must authentic experience.

neural_dream
09-03-2007, 08:03 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
offline DiD is the only way at the moment. Online DiD would be the best thing, but I don't have resources to organise this.

carguy_
09-03-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by jarkko2004:
Tha ones who pay the development costs are offline players (most of the games are bought by them) and they want candy for their eyes, they give a **** to human factor(just like me) What I think is that Oleg should give a chance to 3rd party developers and then we could see this game live (with human factor [or not],if You want to download one) for 25 years.


If you don`t understand what tagert`s saying, lookup CFS3`s idea of a flight sim compared to IL2 and tell me which had more success.

Maybe, but online is what makes this game so popular after 6 years of market existance.I think some people here are barking up the wrong game.Now that we know what Oleg`s aim is, we can say that roleplay is not it.As online experience shows, the community can make up for the large part of the human side of the game that is missing intentionally.I think that IL2 is not a game made for a RPG side being implemented.Games like BOB2,Air Conflicts,Blazing Angels,Combat Wings with limited sim features should have a lot of that whereas they`re missing almost all of that aswell.I remember playing B17 flying fortress for the rpg factor on amiga.Things like DM or FM were not the most important element but managing your team during flight and in the base - orders,first aiding,promotions, plane personalisation was good stuff.Shame those arcade flight games don`t have it.Wings of glory was a great game which nicely coupled the human factor and flying.As for IL2 and BoB:SOW, those aim to stricly recreate flying combat missions over Europe in WWII with the warbirds in the very centre.That said, Maddox Games looks to be far too small to manage such ambitious project of merging those two kinds of games.This aint GTA where you have ~150 ppl working on it.In such a case we have here, everything besides the combat flight simulation element is a waste of resources.

neural_dream
09-03-2007, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jarkko2004:
That said, Maddox Games looks to be far too small to manage such ambitious project of merging those two kinds of games.This aint GTA where you have ~150 ppl working on it.
Maddox games is not small. They may not be EA or Blizzard, but they sure aren't small. Over 10 employees for a game is more than enough usually.

AKA_TAGERT
09-03-2007, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I knew it was pointless even showing you the partial respect of responding to you. Your not even interested about the subject at hand really, but more a barely disguised chance to fly some personal venom against me. Aye, you`ve never forgiven me for making that joke a while ago. So childish for someone the age of an adult.

I guess your words are a little more eloquent in your veiled patronisation this time round... fewer F... U, over and over again, but still the same pent up twistedness inside rubbish that makes you think that all your life is worth is making stupid long responses instead of just being honest and saying, "Yea, I, Mr. tagert is wrong!"

You`d probably have to be committed if you had to admit that at least once.

I`ll not waste any more good time on you again. Sit in your mire. Yikes..

Looks like I struck a nerve..

Sorry, I didn't know you actully do chat up simulated chicks.

Flying_Nutcase
09-03-2007, 10:29 AM
Regarding the original post, some of the more tactical ideas might be cool, but deciding on production? That's taking the eye way off the ball IMHO. Best left for Norm Kruger.