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agarofa
07-23-2005, 01:56 PM
Hello everyone.

I feel a bit embarassed to ask but does anybody know how to fly the Bf-109 with patch 4.01m? I used to fly this aircraft without any trim but now with the new torque effects I'm losing more aircraft during landings than I do in combat. What are the fundamentals of aircraft trim? For example, how should you combine rudder and aileron trim and at a completely basic level should you apply left or right trim if the aircraft is pulling to the left? How do you know what degree of trim you have applied and is this something that needs to be constantly modified according to speed and pitch etc? I'm sure I once read somewhere that Bf-109 pilots only used elevator trim and compensated for torque with the rudder but I find this very difficult with the new patch. Is everyone else struggling with the Bf-109 or is it just me who needs to put in a bit more practice.

Thanks in advance for any help.


There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots

agarofa
07-23-2005, 01:56 PM
Hello everyone.

I feel a bit embarassed to ask but does anybody know how to fly the Bf-109 with patch 4.01m? I used to fly this aircraft without any trim but now with the new torque effects I'm losing more aircraft during landings than I do in combat. What are the fundamentals of aircraft trim? For example, how should you combine rudder and aileron trim and at a completely basic level should you apply left or right trim if the aircraft is pulling to the left? How do you know what degree of trim you have applied and is this something that needs to be constantly modified according to speed and pitch etc? I'm sure I once read somewhere that Bf-109 pilots only used elevator trim and compensated for torque with the rudder but I find this very difficult with the new patch. Is everyone else struggling with the Bf-109 or is it just me who needs to put in a bit more practice.

Thanks in advance for any help.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AerialTarget
07-23-2005, 02:16 PM
Practice. Anyway, you don't need to fly coordinated, even for landings. Not doing so slows you down and has other negative consequences, so I do not recommend it, but it is not necessary to stay in the air or land (in the game; in real life, an uncoordinated landing would probably result in a ground loop).

Atomic_Marten
07-23-2005, 02:16 PM
Practice more.
Bf-109G/K is maybe the best all around fighter in 4.01.

VW-IceFire
07-23-2005, 03:02 PM
No problems here.

Bf109 has no rudder trim, just elevator...so you need to manually correct on your rudder.

Tachyon1000
07-23-2005, 04:33 PM
I don't think it has aileron trim either? Does it? If so, I am in the mood for a rude awakening.

VW-IceFire
07-23-2005, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
I don't think it has aileron trim either? Does it? If so, I am in the mood for a rude awakening. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope...just elevator. Fine German precision engineering but they forgot the bloody trim controls.

US aircraft are by far the nicest with this regard.

|CoB|_Spectre
07-23-2005, 05:21 PM
Good landings often start with good, stabilized approaches. Try to visually acquire the airfield as soon as possible. "Straight-In" approaches are often more difficult than "standard approaches" which consist of different "legs":
-Upwind leg is flown at pattern altitude (approx. 1000 ft AGL) parallel to the intended direction of landing.
-Crosswind leg is a 90-degree turn to the left or right of the upwind leg to transition to the Downwind leg. Maintain altitude and keep bank angles around 30-degrees.
-Downwind leg is the opposite direction of the landing, still at pattern altitude at which time the first notch of flaps can be deployed. As the aircraft further slows, go to Takeoff flaps and drop the landing gear. Keep looking out the canopy and, when you see the approach end of the runway at a 45-degree angle behind your wing, begin the turn to Base leg.
-Base leg is the complement of the Crosswind leg and transitions from Downwind to Final Leg. The descent from pattern altitude is begun, landing gear and full flaps should be deployed by now, slow to 180 km/hr.
-Final leg is aligned with the runway with a controlled descent. Strive to maintain runway alignment and an approach airspeed of 160 km/hr. Adjust power as necessary, but try to avoid large changs in power due to torque effect. I usually fly approaches at the widest zoom so I can see the sides of the runway as I begin the roundout and flare (slow stick back). Once you know you've got the runway made, reduce power to idle and try to hold the nose just high enough to let the airspeed bleed off until the wheels, which should be mere inches above the runway, touchdown.

Depending on the direction you enter the landing pattern, you may go directly into a Downwind without an Upwind or Crosswing leg. Throughout the entire evolution, use rudder to maintain coordinated flight (skid ball centered in the turn-&-bank indicator). Avoid steep bank angles when low and slow. Take your time and concentrate on procedure. As the airplane slows, the nose will tend to drop and can be counteracted by adding nose-up trim. This will also help stablize the approach and you won't be struggling to keep the stick exactly where it needs to be to maintain airspeed. Don't be afraid to abort a landing that doesn't look like it's shaping up. Simply do a "go around" by judiciously adding power and raising flaps one notch at a time as airspeed builds. If you were trimming nose-up during the approach, you will notice the nose climbing wildly if you add high power. Be prepared to trim nose-down as needed to stablize.

I hope some of this helps. Keep in mind a huge amount of 109s were lost to takeoff and landing accidents because of its high power to weight ratio coupled with the weird wheel geometry. The wheels were somewhat toed-in to accomodate the wingspar and this had significant impact on its ground handling. By comparison the Spit, whose gear was nearly the same distance apart, was far easier to land and had fewer accidents.

IL2-chuter
07-24-2005, 10:11 AM
AerialTarget is spot-on about your not needing to be coordinated. If you're cockpit on, try a circular approach (so you line up with the runway just at touchdown) and, maybe, a little high so you can slip a little to improve your view (if you're making a lefthand approach carry a bit of right rudder and view out the left side of windshield.) I make a lot of cross-controlled approaches in taildraggers (RL), it's a great way to slow down and can radically steepen the approach (in a Champ it feels like a 40 degree approach angle, coniderably less in a C185).

mortoma
07-24-2005, 10:35 AM
I didn't have much more difficulty landing the 109 or any other plane after the 4.01 patch came out.
Since I can't see the slip indicator in most planes without scrolling down with the mouse, most of the time I just go by feel with the rudders. But it is for sure more difficult to land now, but not by much.

AerialTarget
07-24-2005, 01:58 PM
The glide slopes seem to be more steep since the patch. I can no longer dead stick all of my landings; I'm used to the old glide slopes, so I invariably have to add power before I flare. Before the patch, I didn't need to use any power, then I did usually overshoot the beginning of the runway and land somewhere around the middle!

agarofa
07-24-2005, 09:13 PM
Thanks everyone for your help and advice. Sounds like I need to brush up on my technique. All a bit humiliating but then I guess this sim wouldn't be half as much fun if it was easy. In the meantime I shall revert to my initial Forgotten Battles rank of chief latrine digger.

P.S. Here's a quick request to all mission builders. PLEASE DO NOT line the runway verges with trees or parked vehicles... its very bad for the blood pressue!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fix your course to a star and you can navigate any storm </div></BLOCKQUOTE> (Leonardo de Vinci)

heywooood
07-24-2005, 09:25 PM
chief latrine digger?!! that IS rank.