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darkhorizon11
02-22-2005, 10:07 PM
I like to build missions in my spare time.

As a mission builder one of my biggest gripes is only being able to put four planes on a set of waypoints. I understand that this is supposed to represent a flight but on some larger bombing missions this can be a pain. Although my computer and FB is unable of simulating 500+ planes that were common on air raids I ussually ride with about 40 or so aircraft. Its few enough for the comp to run smoothly (it gets choppy when the bombs strike) but enough to give the illusion of being hopefully outnumbered and overwhelmed (on the LW missions). The problem is to get some a huge formation to fly together following seperate waypoints takes a lot of annoying tweaking of airspeeds and course and wasted time too boot.

Anyways what I'm getting to is that you should be able to tailor like an entire squadron of 16 or so planes to one set of waypoints and be able to choose the type of formations. Even if it were only for bombers, fighters generally fly looser formations but bombers were packed in tight for protection. Then if there were an option to choose the type of formation and avg. distance things could get all the more realistic.

If we do that why not stop there? Get rid of the annoying bug where if the leader is fatally hit and starts a steepwturning descent with the crew still inside the whole flight follows. Instead, the wingman will step up as the leader. Or if one of the bombers (not just the leader) is still controllable but loses an engine and can't keep up his flight stays with him nursing him back to base.

I know its too late and impractical for Forgotten Battles of Pacific Fighters but it would be an awesome feature for BoB. It would definitely add to that immersion factor we all love so much! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Griffon_25th
02-22-2005, 10:16 PM
I second that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

darkhorizon11
02-22-2005, 10:28 PM
I've copied this thread into the Ready Room since thats where it really belongs. I thought I'd post it here just to see what you guys think.

How realistic is it?

Saunders1953
02-22-2005, 10:42 PM
I agree, Darkhorizon11. I make alot of 40-60 plane missions (2 or 3 bomb groups)and although I have gotten pretty good at setting the flights on the zoomed in grid to get the right look, it's time consuming to be sure.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Get rid of the annoying bug where if the leader is fatally hit and starts a steepwturning descent with the crew still inside the whole flight follows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I HATE that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Or if one of the bombers (not just the leader) is still controllable but loses an engine and can't keep up his flight stays with him nursing him back to base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm ccertain I've seen flights do that in my missions--maybe it has to do with the skill level at which the crews are set?

darkhorizon11
02-23-2005, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saunders1953:
I agree, Darkhorizon11. I make alot of 40-60 plane missions (2 or 3 bomb groups)and although I have gotten pretty good at setting the flights on the zoomed in grid to get the right look, it's time consuming to be sure.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Get rid of the annoying bug where if the leader is fatally hit and starts a steepwturning descent with the crew still inside the whole flight follows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I HATE that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Or if one of the bombers (not just the leader) is still controllable but loses an engine and can't keep up his flight stays with him nursing him back to base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm ccertain I've seen flights do that in my missions--maybe it has to do with the skill level at which the crews are set? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for the second thing... I've never seen it, unless it was the leader but hey maybe I missed something.

Saunders1953
02-23-2005, 01:18 PM
Yes, I noticed it at least once, and thought...Cool! It wasn't the lead flight, though--I believe the 5th flight leader (second element, low squadron) in a 6 flight/3 squadron B17 group combat box had a wing smoking and had dropped back probably a km, and his #2 wing and #3 wing were right with him. Gotta love this game!

smatchimo
02-23-2005, 04:21 PM
If you set a squad of A/C to follow a set of waypoints can you just assign the other groups to "escort" (clicking the set button under the waypoint tab, and assigning the crosshair to the first flight) the original flight that has all the waypoints? And when you do this, do you have to set them as an escort at every waypoint or just the first one?

Shakthamac
02-23-2005, 08:25 PM
the only problem with the flight slowing up for a straggler is that it really isnt historically accurate. More often than not, if a plane were hit and slowed down, it would drop out of formation and either head for a rallying point or head home. I agree though that it would be nice to be able to set larger formations and specify the pattern in which they fly. I would just like to see an option for heavy bombers under a formation tab that said combat box with a check mark next to it.

darkhorizon11
02-23-2005, 11:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smatchimo:
If you set a squad of A/C to follow a set of waypoints can you just assign the other groups to "escort" (clicking the set button under the waypoint tab, and assigning the crosshair to the first flight) the original flight that has all the waypoints? And when you do this, do you have to set them as an escort at every waypoint or just the first one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Escorts do just that though, escort. Won't they just weave back and forth protecting the flight their supposed to escort? Or will they follow it in formation?

Saunders1953
02-23-2005, 11:35 PM
I have yet to try that method, but according to older threads in the mission builder forums (I think) bombers won't do the weave thang, only fighters do.

Shak--true about the stragglers IRL, but it was cool to see them drop back. Of course, it opened up the group box mightily..(Loved the missions you sent last week, btw!)

Also, on a similar thread a couple of days ago, I mentioned forming V's using three a/c flights with the US Heavies. Earlier tonight I was setting up a B24 mission, and noticed they didn't go into that formation no matter what I tried for orientation/flight paths, spacing, crew skill, etc., just stayed line astern. I tried it with B17's, and presto! they moved into a V every time. I guess Oleg only coded the 17's for that????

ComradeBadinov
02-24-2005, 12:25 AM
If you really want to cut down on the waypoint work, You only have to make the first group of 4 (flight 1) aircraft waypoints. Start them off at 10,000 feet and 300kmph, run a waypoint out about 5 to 10 km. and drop the altitude to 9,800 ft and the speed to 330kmph. now run that first group of 4 out to the target and back to base. Now you can make three more flights of 4 aircraft. Start group 2 off to the right of group 1 and make their alitude 10,100 ft and 300kmpg, Use the Set function and set them to group 1 run them out to the second waypoint and use the set function again, you will not have to make anymore waypoints for that group, they will follow the first group and drop their bombs on the same target at the same time. You put in the other two groups of four, putting group 3 at 10,200 and 300kmph, set them to the first group and so on with the fourth group. This cuts down on multiple waypoints for each flight. You can even do it with fighters when they carry bombs or drop tanks. If they are clean they will weave around their set escort group, with bombs or drop tanks they will fly formation. If you would like to see what this looks like in the FMB, just pm me and leave yer email addy and I will send you one of my missions where I use this technique. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ClnlSandersLite
02-24-2005, 01:49 AM
Here's another one I noticed. If you shoot up the lead bomber to where he drops ordinance and rtbs but isn't killed, the other planes in the formation also drop with him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Wanna protect your airfield? Go for the lead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif.

ClnlSandersLite
02-24-2005, 04:54 AM
ComradeBadinov' technique

Ugh...

Here's what I'm working with. I'm pretty sure I've got it figured out. But I HIGHLY reccomend you not use this. If the formation lead goes down in one of those famous spirals or drops ordinance due to dammage, the WHOLE **** FORMATION does as well. With b-17's, and probably every other heavy strategic, you can't use 16 bombers. If you do, 8 and 14 collide when they are in formation due to sharing the same spot. Also the 4th flight will basically wipe out the first flight the first time the formation turns. When you turn, you have to keep it level and the speed the same, or you have another collision fest. If you do gentle turns (multiple waypoints) the inner flight ends up in the weeds, if you do sharp turns the inner flight ends up scattered over 5-10 kilometers behind the formation. Just, no. It's apparently meant to be used with fighters as they would have no problems with keeping formation. As it is, the bombers just can't do it. Ohh, and not supprisingly these problems get a LOT worse when the formation comes under flak fire. So, below is the whole thing in all it's ugly glory. Even before I tried all the workarounds I mentioned.


[MAIN]
MAP Berlin/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
usa0100
usa0101
usa0102
usa0103
[usa0100]
Planes 4
Skill 2
Class air.B_17F
Fuel 75
weapons 16x500
[usa0100_Way]
NORMFLY 54500.24 82393.73 5000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 54500.34 70993.18 5000.00 300.00 &0
GATTACK 54487.07 47014.35 5000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 62241.81 34621.75 5000.00 200.00 &0
NORMFLY 79432.75 26817.59 5000.00 200.00 &0
NORMFLY 111127.54 35136.61 5000.00 200.00 &0
NORMFLY 133189.80 54455.37 5000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 151722.46 68156.56 1000.00 200.00 &0
LANDING 157595.03 72345.75 0 0 &0
[usa0101]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.B_17F
Fuel 75
weapons 16x500
[usa0101_Way]
NORMFLY 54100.72 82794.34 5025.00 250.00 usa0100 0 &0
NORMFLY 54099.07 71408.39 5025.00 200.00 usa0100 1 &0
[usa0102]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.B_17F
Fuel 75
weapons 16x500
[usa0102_Way]
NORMFLY 54701.25 82802.86 5050.00 250.00 usa0100 0 &0
NORMFLY 54894.93 71422.02 5050.00 200.00 usa0100 1 &0
[usa0103]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.B_17F
Fuel 75
weapons 16x500
[usa0103_Way]
NORMFLY 54298.14 83196.33 5075.00 250.00 usa0100 0 &0
NORMFLY 54507.20 71802.22 5075.00 200.00 usa0100 1 &0
[NStationary]
0_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54662.40 47711.27 360.00 0.0 0
1_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54695.15 47127.58 360.00 0.0 0
2_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54662.40 46783.55 360.00 0.0 0
3_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54367.41 46816.31 360.00 0.0 0
4_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54301.86 47149.54 360.00 0.0 0
5_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54476.85 47334.95 360.00 0.0 0
6_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54711.50 47329.36 360.00 0.0 0
7_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54465.88 47138.53 360.00 0.0 0
8_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54312.78 47007.51 360.00 0.0 0
9_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54531.31 46750.79 360.00 0.0 0
10_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54684.24 46963.84 360.00 0.0 0
11_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54329.47 47378.65 360.00 0.0 0
12_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54706.04 47460.29 360.00 0.0 0
13_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54664.06 48112.52 360.00 0.0 0
14_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54377.52 47886.43 360.00 0.0 0
15_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54277.46 47746.83 360.00 0.0 0
16_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak18_88mm 2 54419.56 48152.38 360.00 0.0 0
17_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54755.52 48322.98 360.00 0.0 0
18_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54663.57 47898.01 360.00 0.0 0
19_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54365.93 48042.68 360.00 0.0 0
20_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54027.54 47893.89 360.00 0.0 0
21_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54593.76 47777.06 360.00 0.0 0
22_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Flak30_20mm 2 54386.80 47584.04 360.00 0.0 0
[Buildings]
[StaticCamera]
54507 47029 100
54040 47452 100
54964 47412 100
54497 47993 100
[Bridge]
[House]

STENKA_69.GIAP
02-24-2005, 05:38 AM
If you want to precisely control a large formation create a single plane flight, set waypoints, test and save it.

Open mission file with block notes, cut paste, renumber the plane/waypoint section then adjust the X, Y (and Z if you want) values. For example +10 m X and +10m Y will offset the second plane.

This way you can get an AI formation that will do exactly what it was supposed to do particularily in the ground attack. It will also carry on regardless when lead planes are shot down.

It's time consuming but worked very well on my recent Tarrento mission where I ran 28 IL2Ts into a tight, crowded harbour against a collection of battleships and cruisers.

VF51_Flatspin
02-24-2005, 10:25 PM
Stenka, is there any way you could show me a sample?

flatspin@jg51.net

EURO_Snoopy
02-25-2005, 03:43 AM
This tool may assist (http://airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=259)

STENKA_69.GIAP
02-25-2005, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF51_Flatspin:
Stenka, is there any way you could show me a sample?

flatspin@jg51.net <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Flatspin, I'll run you up a simple worked example over the weekend and send - I don't have all my stuff on the work pc.

Say Hi to Sturtz and the rest of the Brautwurst munchers

VF51_Flatspin
02-25-2005, 08:51 AM
ROFLMAO!! You got it! Thanks bud. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif