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Spinne_3.-JG51
11-22-2004, 12:19 AM
I just saw Jim Lowell talking on the Discovery Channel about Apollo 8. It made me think about guts. Those guys had more guts than I have ever seen in my life. All the astronauts who've stepped into training knowing that they were going to be a part of a very risky endevour. What do you guys think? Feel free to list other examples of sheer guts.

WTE_Ibis
11-22-2004, 12:24 AM
Me coming home late when my mrs has her err visitors http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Spinne_3.-JG51
11-22-2004, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
Me coming home late when my mrs has her err visitors http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, get off PF!

Seriously, lets keep this one serious.

HansKnappstick
11-22-2004, 12:51 AM
I have just finished reading about storming the kidnapped Lufthansa airplane "Landshut" and said the same: people had more guts then.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-22-2004, 01:35 AM
Hi,

There are plenty of examples of guts through history but a few that always spring to mind are:

Major Cain (http://www.britishairborne.org/victoriacross.html#faq4) who defended his position against enemy armour such that they thought they were attacking a much larger force. At the end of the engagement, he'd destroyed six tanks (4 Tigers) using an obsolete PIAT and, when he ran out of ammo for those, by firing a 2 inch mortar 'from the hip.'

Second, is BoB vet Bob Doe (http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/doe.htm) who didn't necessarily run up a massive tally but who, like the other pilots, had to learn very quickly in those desperate days and who had the guts not only to fight against massive odds but to largely dispense with the tactics they had been taught and formulate something new 'on the fly'.

Both of these people I pick out because (and I suspect this applies to a lot of vets and so this choice of two honours all of the same ilk) no one really knew what they had done during the war because they never bragged about it; Cain's own daughter apparently didn't know he'd won a VC until after he died...In short, they had just done what they did because they felt it was right.

Pretty much everyone has guts though; it's in us all. It takes just as much 'guts' to come to terms with a terminal illness or keep going to school in the face of massive amounts of bullying as it does anything else. There are a lot of heroes out there and most of them are unsung.

Cheers,
Norris

HansKnappstick
11-22-2004, 01:38 AM
Yeah, Norris, you keep the spirits up!
I just have to visit UK dedicated some day again. I hope you still have a server for AEP?

NorrisMcWhirter
11-22-2004, 01:53 AM
Hi Hans http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Shouldn't really be hijacking this thread but:

UK-D is still on v2.04 at present. I haven't been around much cos I've been tarting myself elsewhere but when (if?) the dedicated server comes out, it will be changing over.

If you are still having a Friday night session, drop me a PM..I'm still interested http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,
Norris

Dolemite-
11-22-2004, 02:05 AM
His name is Jim Lovell not lowell.

Jasko76
11-22-2004, 02:08 AM
Commiting suicide, that must take guts and desperacy...

Guts is when armour and heavily armed infantry is approaching your village, and all you have is an axe, a shovel, a hayfork or in best case an old hunting shotgun or a trophy Schmeisser from WWII. This is all that stands between a horde of evil and your loved ones. That took courage. Facing the enemy, although you're scared like hell. This was Bosnia in 1992. But we didn't give up and never will. Why didn't the West sell us any guns to defend ourselves is beyond my mind.

Ankanor
11-22-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
Commiting suicide, that must take guts and desperacy...

Guts is when armour and heavily armed infantry is approaching your village, and all you have is an axe, a shovel, a hayfork or in best case an old hunting shotgun or a trophy Schmeisser from WWII. This is all that stands between a horde of evil and your loved ones. That took courage. Facing the enemy, although you're scared like hell. This was Bosnia in 1992. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif good that it's past tense. Past Imperfect Unreturning, to be correct

Jasko76
11-22-2004, 03:36 AM
Let's hope it won't happen again, but I'm almost sure it will. Nothing had been solved, country is divided, hatred is still there. And Serbs are inherently violent, their history is violent, they always wanted to subdue Bosnia and Croatia, and they almost succeeded in the 1990's. Well, at least we now have means to defend ourselves, so if they wanna try again, we are ready. Not looking forward to it, but i'd rather die than let them rape another Bosnian girl.

PBNA-Boosher
11-22-2004, 06:17 AM
Jasko, if it does happen again, which I hope it doesn't, ask and I shall get you whatever you need. Also keep some PMC's in mind.

As for things that take guts:

check out the story of these two American snipers in Somalia, here are their MOH citations. Both were given posthumously:

Rank and organization: Master Sergeant, U.S. Army.
Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia.
Born: Lincoln, Maine.
Citation: Master Sergeant Gordon, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fires from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

Rank and organization: Sergeant First Class, U.S. Army.
Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia.
Born: Newville, Pennsylvania.
Citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-22-2004, 06:44 AM
Jasko, I was still in my highscool years and still remember what it was during those years in Bosnia in here. I remember also, we had Bosnian survivors visiting our schools to organize help (food, medication, financial aid etc).

We knew the stories from the news. But after listening to the survivors who witnessed the war firsthand, we know then it was far worse. Needless to say we tried to give our supports and help as much as we can.

Thanks God it has ended and hope it wont happen again.

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-22-2004, 07:09 AM
read this thread and you will see some examples of guts and courage... http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Seelow.htm

HansKnappstick
11-22-2004, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
Why didn't the West sell us any guns to defend ourselves is beyond my mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. They sent tough peacekeeping troops to Srebrenica instead.

altstiff
11-22-2004, 10:06 AM
Douglas Bader. Not only for his flying skills but ofr his leadership ability.

S 8
11-22-2004, 11:07 AM
Guts.....to be a human in this world....

Fehler
11-22-2004, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jasko76:
Why didn't the West sell us any guns to defend ourselves is beyond my mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because we had a Democratic president at the time who was afraid to lend American aide abroad. Oh, the same guy that took virtually no action in Somalia either. And lets not forget that it was the same president that never took the initiative to halt Al Queda and Bin Laden, and forced no sanctions on various rogue states doing nuclear weapons testing/development, and was more concerned with an isolationist approach to government than believing that world peace "Means" domestic peace.

Thanks Bill Clinton...

MEGILE
11-22-2004, 11:45 AM
heh, and it begins...

Close your eyes tight, stick your fingers in your ears, shake your head and hope for the best on this one.

Spinne_3.-JG51
11-22-2004, 06:22 PM
Aah, lets keep this one apolitical.

Think about this - going around the moon. Had to take guts. I'm a foreign student in the US, so I did feel a sense of unfamiliarity when I first came here. I'd hate to think of what I'd have felt seeing the bright blue home planet like a little ball as my Command Module slipped around another world. I just think it's ballzy.

NegativeGee
11-22-2004, 08:26 PM
Gutsyness of a different kind, the I'm not going to give up and die sort.

Joe Simpson- of Touching the Void fame (if you have not see it get down to your video store already!). Badly broken leg, no food, no water, stuck in the bottom of a cravasse, no hope of rescue- does he give up? nope he crawls out of the cravasse and then down a mountainside for 3 and a half days back to his base camp.

Aron Ralston- cut his own arm off with a penknife after it was trapped by it in a rock fall. And then hiked his way to rescue. Need I say more?

sokil
11-22-2004, 08:56 PM
Thousands People on the streets in Ukraine in below freezing weather protesting against fraudulent presidential elections - I think that is guts and I am very proud of my people that they are doing this and protecting their right for free and fair elections.

_Neveraine_
11-22-2004, 09:48 PM
Guts to me involves a man, a donkey and the beach of Gallipoli.

Freycinet
11-23-2004, 01:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Because we had a Democratic president at the time who was afraid to lend American aide abroad. Oh, the same guy that took virtually no action in Somalia either. And lets not forget that it was the same president that never took the initiative to halt Al Queda and Bin Laden, and forced no sanctions on various rogue states doing nuclear weapons testing/development, and was more concerned with an isolationist approach to government than believing that world peace "Means" domestic peace.

Thanks Bill Clinton... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure don't know anything about recent history. Clinton was the one pushing the Europeans to act for many years and the US in the end came through and helped the Bosnians. Only US action staved off the Serbs and many people are grateful for that in Bosnia now. Same story with Kosovo. I see you're one of the hate-spouters that the US really need now-a-days...

Breeze147
11-23-2004, 07:51 AM
Double Post - Pardon me.

Breeze147
11-23-2004, 07:57 AM
Guts...Being on a landing craft approaching Omaha Beach, bullets whizzing everywhere, cold, exhasuted and seasick, seeing the ramp come down and charging of into the unknown...

Later the same day, if your still in one piece, hearing an officer yell that the only way off of this beach is to keep moving forward, then getting up and moving forward....


Getting through each day by convincing yourself that you are already dead....

Being 19 and informing your mother that you just volunteered for an experimental U.S. Air Force ground combat team and will be going directly to Vietnam after 12 weeks of training...

Luftwaffe_109
11-23-2004, 02:03 PM
Having the courage to engage massive bomber streams, late war (when the odds are stacked decisivly against you) while, beneath you, your home is being bombed to rubble.

Jasko76
11-24-2004, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
Why didn't the West sell us any guns to defend ourselves is beyond my mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. They sent tough peacekeeping troops to Srebrenica instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we've sued the UN for that one now. To just stand and watch while thousands are expelled, beaten, downwright murdered in front of the wrold's eyes, with cameras filming it all, and not doing anything... Jesus! Let's hope they get what they deserve!

About American involvement in Bosnia - actually, it was George Bush that refused to help. Clinton was pushing Europe to do something all along, but Brits and French, being such Serbophiles, refused to help Bosnians, and Croatians for that matter. Thankfully, we received a lot of help from Hungary and Germany (moral and material) - God bless you all! Finally, the madness ended with Dayton agreement - courtesy of Bill Clinton. It came very late, but nonetheless, it came. I still think they should have sold us some weapons instead.

Boosher - thanks for the support bro!

Raptor_20thFG
11-27-2004, 04:05 AM
Because we had a Democratic president at the time who was afraid to lend American aide abroad. Oh, the same guy that took virtually no action in Somalia either. And lets not forget that it was the same president that never took the initiative to halt Al Queda and Bin Laden, and forced no sanctions on various rogue states doing nuclear weapons testing/development, and was more concerned with an isolationist approach to government than believing that world peace "Means" domestic peace.

Thanks Bill Clinton...


Ooh I am going to get in trouble for this but I could not let this one go I was in Afgahnistan in 2001 with the 101st and in 2004 with the 501st out of alaska we still have not caught bin laden because we can not go where he is. War is war politics is politics Lest we nevere forget...

As for bosnia I am sorry for that tradegy truly sorry.

Raptor_20thFG
11-27-2004, 04:07 AM
posted Mon November 22 2004 19:56
Thousands People on the streets in Ukraine in below freezing weather protesting against fraudulent presidential elections - I think that is guts and I am very proud of my people that they are doing this and protecting their right for free and fair elections.

I agree with this post 100 Percent.

Spinne_3.-JG51
11-27-2004, 04:14 AM
Heard of Reinhold Messner? He climbed Everest without O2 during the monsoons, baaad weather. He's also climbed all 14 8000m+ peaks (he was the first to do so) and also has done the Rupal face of Nanga Parbat. He's also the pioneer of Alpine climbing techniques in the Himalayas. Guts

-HH- Beebop
11-27-2004, 09:56 AM
The passengers of Flight 93 on 9/11/02 who decided that rather than let terrorists use their plane to kill others, took over despite the fact that they probably knew they would die in the effort.