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frior-one
08-17-2004, 04:08 AM
i have been playing il2fb (off line only) for quite a while now. I have tried many aircraft and thought it was time I gave the old 109 a spin. I like the ride, climbs well, its fast. forward visability is not brilliant with the thick struts and horizontal bars though (imho).
I set up a fmb with a captured la7 flying a constant loop around my airfield. I take off, catch it up and blast away...nothing.
I use limited ammo so am selective when I pull the trigger...I get close...nothing....I pull back..nothing...yet with hurris,ponys,p40's I can hit things......what am doing wrong with this bird please....

frior-one
08-17-2004, 04:08 AM
i have been playing il2fb (off line only) for quite a while now. I have tried many aircraft and thought it was time I gave the old 109 a spin. I like the ride, climbs well, its fast. forward visability is not brilliant with the thick struts and horizontal bars though (imho).
I set up a fmb with a captured la7 flying a constant loop around my airfield. I take off, catch it up and blast away...nothing.
I use limited ammo so am selective when I pull the trigger...I get close...nothing....I pull back..nothing...yet with hurris,ponys,p40's I can hit things......what am doing wrong with this bird please....

Tooz_69GIAP
08-17-2004, 04:47 AM
you probably need to give more deflection on it. With nose mounted guns, it tends to require far more precise gunnery, so either get real close (within at least 200m) and use the zoom on the gunsite to site the target nicely, and then let fly once you sorted your range and stuff.

A good way of learning nose gunnery is to use unlimited ammo, and give waaaay too much lead onto a target with constant fire, and WATCH THE TRACERS. Simply, reduce the rate of your turn (I assume that's what you're doing with this circling La-7) and "walk" the tracers into the target, and then you will see where the tracers hit your target.

Rule of thumb is, if you think you are too close, get closer, and whatever you think is enough lead, double it!!

You should improve.

Also, a rather annoying thing about nose guns is that you may have to make a lot of "under-the-nose" shots where you actually make your shots without being able to see your target. You have to allow for that also. But really, the key is to get close, and zoom in on your target before you fire, then you can really see how far you are missing, whether you are firing too short or too long, etc, and correct.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

frior-one
08-17-2004, 05:06 AM
i normally fly with the view set to "page down" (dont know what angle that is) and have the gun sight set on a button on my joystick to toggle it on and off and i like the field of vision it gives.

Tooz_69GIAP
08-17-2004, 05:35 AM
Well, switch to gunsite view, as that will reduce your head movement and effectively "fix" the gunsite so it wont travel out of your site.

And when you are on the six, and close (AT LEAST 200m - CLOSER IS PREFERABLE) then zoom right in as close as possible to the target and line up your shot.

Another good way of practicing is to actually slow down the time, and slowly line your shot up. Those extra couple of seconds really help in the long run as you can see how the aircraft moves, and how easily or not easily you are able to bring your guns to bear onto the target to hit it.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

frior-one
08-17-2004, 05:53 AM
thanks for the tips...i will have a go tonight when i get home.
on the 109, as the guns are top mounted, do they still require convergence?, could i set it to say 600m, knowing that i am only going to be attacking from 200m or less. would this give a straight line to the target?

Kannaksen_hanu
08-17-2004, 06:40 AM
109's wobbles much more than most other planes, that is the reason for your problems. Not sure why, but it is so much easier to take aim with Yaks or La's with same joystick settings. I feel that least 109 and Brewster dont respond as quickly when you try to make small adjustments. It is milliseconds, but it matters. You have to learn to spray when gunsight moves over the target.

And convergence doesn't really matter if you have only hull-mounted guns. Elevation is a bit off, but at effective ranges it really doesn't matter.

VW-IceFire
08-17-2004, 07:13 AM
The Bf 109 is just a very precise aircraft. Sensitivity is good so just work on leading your target and accounting for the rapid bullet drop and you'll be hitting home very easily.

I find the 109 is the easiest of the nose mounted aircraft to aim with. Tied with the Yak but with a better ammo load so you can spray a little more.

Also give the wing mounted 20mm a try. That can help you work on your aim.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

NippleCorn
08-17-2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frior-one:
i have been playing il2fb (off line only) for quite a while now. I have tried many aircraft and thought it was time I gave the old 109 a spin. I like the ride, climbs well, its fast. forward visability is not brilliant with the thick struts and horizontal bars though (imho).
I set up a fmb with a captured la7 flying a constant loop around my airfield. I take off, catch it up and blast away...nothing.
I use limited ammo so am selective when I pull the trigger...I get close...nothing....I pull back..nothing...yet with hurris,ponys,p40's I can hit things......what am doing wrong with this bird please....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi frior,

Would you be willing to share that FMB mission? I am a newbie to basic gunnery as well, and would like to be able to practice on some "sitting duck" Planes.

Thanks

El Turo
08-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Load up a quick mission builder against 16 enemy aircraft all set to "empty" and "novice" with your aircraft set to unlimited ammo. That should get you plenty of target practice.

As for convergence, of course it makes a big difference in your gunnery. The longer the range setting, the more elevation required to achieve the same bullet-drop through the center pipper at the specified range.

Now, there are certain exceptions to this, as in the 20mm cannon in the 109F4 wherein the trajectory of the round is precisely the same for 100m as it is for 400m. This is so because the round is still travelling upwards when it passes through the center-pipper at 100m and is then coming back downwards again after peaking out between 250-350m and falls back through the center-pipper again at 400m.

So, being that the G2 uses the same 20mm cannon as the Franz, I would recommend such a setting as you get a "two for one" situation.

If you set your convergence for 100m and are actually at 200m and your center-pipper is placed squarely on your target (assuming no lateral correction/deflection for the sake of illustration).. then your round will pass over the top of your target. In order to score hits, you will have to move your gunsight slightly below your target in order to score hits.

Coincidentally, let's say that your convergence is set at 100m (which gives us 400m as well, right?) and our target is at 450m. Because the shell is falling at this point, you will have to compensate by pulling your gunsight slightly above your target instead to account for the extra 50m in distance.

In a deflection shooting situation, you are best served by setting up an unloaded firing opportunity (in any aircraft), wherein you are at or near 1G with little, if any, stick input. Hopefully, you have established a tracking solution so that your target aircraft will by flying through the center of your gunsight from left to right or directly from right to left so that all of your guns (wing-mounted or cowl/hub mounted) will put forth a concentrated stream of projectiles through your bandit's path that he must fly through (hopefully at or at least near optimum convergence distance, right?)

I call this my "wingline" firing solution and it is very effective at scoring hits at many ranges, even if outside of convergence. This is especially true of aircraft with wing-mounted armament that creates a bit of a "spread" of projectiles. This way, if you have over or under estimated the timing of the shot, there is still a likelyhood of SOME rounds striking your opponent centerline as your rounds will actually be crossing your bandit's line of travel slightly left or right of your target pipper depending on the timing and distance of the shot.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

frior-one
08-18-2004, 04:41 AM
Nipplecorn - I would if i could.....I do not know how to post a mission...have you tried the FMB it is quite simple to knock up something like i did....if you do not know how there are some good guides around, i will try and find the links....also try posting a request in the mission builders forum, there are some very good guys there who are more than willing to help.
El Turo - thanks for a very detailed post. I had not thought about the issues you describe. I will have to re-read it a few times to take it in. Thank you.

IKG26Redcoat
08-18-2004, 11:06 AM
one of the most important things for me in the 109 is trim. I know what iim doing wrong, yet I always seem to fall in the same trap.....and thats getting the trim set to combat speeds. I tend to set it as normal while cruising, then I forget because im concentrating on the job in hand, then I dive and get behind my target, and Im fighting to keep the target in the crosshairs because my trim is out. anyway, thats what screws me up......lol

There are a lot of people, who say, that bombing can never win a war. Well, my answer to that, is that it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.
Sir Arthur Harris
CinC Bomber Command

FbusterMk3
08-18-2004, 03:40 PM
forget convergence on the 109.... if convergence becomes a factor your too far away from your target, set yourself on a parabolic collision course with your target (preferably from below) as you pass to within 20 feet or so give it all you've got for one whole second! Two 108 canon rounds will cripple anything.

JR_Greenhorn
08-18-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frior-one:
.....I do not know how to post a mission....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is quite easy. Simply browse to where you saved the mission file on your computer, find the *.mis file, and open it with Notepad or similar text editor. Select all, copy and paste into your post here. Its even simpler than it sounds.

Whatch out for missions that have too many ground objects though, as they can be a bit long to post on the forums.



Related to gunnery practice, I've been slinging rounds at Mistel sets for practice lately. Its kind of fun, as for me they are more difficult to cripple than a true bomber, but if you overdo it, the explosion will take you with it.
The AI is as bad as promised in the Mistel, however.

http://www.fargoairmuseum.org/F2G-1D.jpg

The12342sainT
08-18-2004, 04:20 PM
I agree with fbustermk3 ^
| two posts above:
I use the shotgun approach with the 109 :close short burst. 4 to 6 wing mounted MGs of allied planes can spray a lot of fast lead over a wide area before and after convergence whereas the 109 usually carries larger cliber slower ammo. In 109, deflection and headon shots I use at medium range.

"He that falls in love with himself will have no rivals."
~ Benjamin Franklin

WTE_Galway
08-18-2004, 07:04 PM
109 G2 also needs a good kick of right rudder to shoot straight

check your tracer and make sure its lining up with the gunsight and not zapping off to one side, if it is you are yawing and need to use rudder to bring it back in line with the crosshairs

TheCrux
08-18-2004, 07:32 PM
What great advice here. I'm on my 2nd ( offline ) German fighter campaign, the 1st with limited ammo and I'm finding the 109's armament is to be used as a scalpel ( as opposed to a chainsaw ).

Thanks for the advice on trim, as I forget about it during the heat of battle, and so also had a bit of trouble keeping the target in my sights. As others have said, best way with the 109 is get in close, and use short bursts, or having a good feel for trajectory in deflection shots.

I'll tell you what though, once I got to the point of being able to get halfway decent in gunnery and at least solidly tag my opponents with the F-2's meager firepower; Transferring to the G-2 I was like a shot of vitamin B-12.

I can now cripple or shoot down A/C with well-aimed short bursts in the G-2, right off the bat.

I guess the adage is true:

"Train hard- Fight easy"