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View Full Version : Oleg: What boost versions of the Tempest are we getting?



Buzzsaw-
02-01-2006, 04:27 PM
Hello Oleg

I see a list of aircraft posted as available and flyable in the new patch.

It includes 3 versions of the Macchi 202, 3 versions of the 205, another version of the K4, but only one version of the Tempest V.

This aircraft operated at several boost levels, from the early 1944 version at +9, the mid to late '44 version at +11, to the late war version at +13.

All of these versions saw combat in greater numbers than the 109K4 at 1.98 ata, or any number of other aircraft featured as flyable in the game.

Which boost version are we getting? And why not several versions? No graphics changes would be required.

Thankyou

LEXX_Luthor
02-01-2006, 05:03 PM
http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif


Maybe Oleg will see -- Spanish Civil WAR sim webboards don't need "boost" forums. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

He-51 and I-15, elegant weapons of a more civilized sim community. http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/ylflower.gif

Interesting Question though!!

lbhskier37
02-01-2006, 07:33 PM
As far as I know +9 boost was only used on the Sabre IIa equiped series I aircraft, while +11 and +13 were used on the series II Sabre IIb equiped aircraft. Since the model in the game is of the series II (series I had the long gunbarrels) we would only be able to use +11 and +13 versions with the 3d model we have. 13+ would be really fun, someone should send some data about its use over to Oleg and see if he can get it in. Any extra versions of planes that don't take any real work other than pluggin hp numbers are definitly a good thing.

crazyivan1970
02-01-2006, 07:35 PM
No boost on the version we getting.

lbhskier37
02-01-2006, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
No boost on the version we getting.

So Oleg found data where they removed the supercharger and was running tempests at 1 atm? I imagine a naturally aspriated tempest would have a pretty low ceiling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

ElAurens
02-01-2006, 07:49 PM
I will repeat my comment about the 1.98K4 here as well..

Real men fly early war planes.

Viper2005_
02-01-2006, 09:17 PM
This appears to be the most useful screenshot:

http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/Tempest_MKV_cockpit_041.jpg

Unfortunatly it reads less than even +9 so no accurate determination can be made. I hope that wasn't taken at full throttle. I looked at the other screenshots and they all show the boost gauge hovering around zero, which I found somewhat scary!

Ivan, the boost gauge is very easy to see in the screenshots if you zoom in, so I suspect that the same will apply in game. It's on the top right of the panel, to the right of the RPM gauge. It's got a red outline. Just open it up flat out and read off the number. We're expecting somewhere between +9 and +13. Please tell us.

marc_hawkins
02-01-2006, 09:49 PM
All i know right now is that it appears to be a beautiful screenshot. Right now i don't care if it's powered by a rubber band, i wanna fly it.

WOLFMondo
02-02-2006, 02:03 AM
Series II's came with Sabre IIb's at 11lbs. Only the very first production aircraft with Sabre IIA's used 9lbs. They were quickly uprated to 11lbs during the summer of 1944.

If its 9lbs then its wrong. Should be 11lbs as the 3d model is a Series II.

We'll have to wait and see. The AI model gives something away though when flown in the DF environmenthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buzzsaw-
02-02-2006, 07:27 AM
Salute

The question remains:

Which boost version are we getting?

If we are only getting the +11 boost version, then that invites the question: Why?

+13 boost was used on aircraft in far greater numbers than for example, the 1.98 ata 109K4. Or the Do-335, or 109Z, Ki-84C, or.... etc.

No graphics changes are required.

DIRTY-MAC
02-02-2006, 07:44 AM
the +13 used a Rotol prop, and thats not modeled on the current one, but Alex-Voicu, the modeler of the tempest said it could be done pretty easily, because its probably the only differenc between a +11 and a +13 Tempest,
if you want it you have to convince Alex to do it and send it to Oleg,

and by the way the model we are getting should absolutely be a +11 boosted one

SlickStick
02-02-2006, 08:00 AM
The new catch phrase of the forums:

Got Boost?"

Here's for hoping historical accuracy is always the number one priority of this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kurfurst__
02-02-2006, 08:35 AM
AFAIK +13 was never an offical rating, the only reference to it some pilot's story. +11 was used by the Sabre IIB engined Tempests (about half of the produced late aircraft did have this engine), and +9 was used by the Sabre IIa engines.

As for Tempests, there were about 6 Squadrons equipped them in total, all versions, which would translate to some 120 planes in service (72 would fly missions of those), or 1 and a half Wing. There were more 262s around than that, and ie. the 109K at 1.98ata appears to be operated by at least 4 Wings, ie. some 140 aircraft. On 31 January 1945, there were 314 109K present in the Luftwaffe units.

WOLFMondo
02-02-2006, 09:01 AM
* First production batch of 100 aircraft built by Hawker aircraft Ltd., Langley, Buckinghamshire. JN729-JN773, JN 792-JN822, JN854-JN877. Most aircraft completed as Series 1 (with long barrel Hispano Mark II cannon) and some as Series 2 (with short barrel Hispano Mark V cannon); some aircraft retrospectively modified to Series 2 standard. One aircraft, JN750, completed as a Tempest Mark II. Deliveries to RAF commenced 12-43, completed 5-44; average rate of production, approximately four aircraft per week.

* Second production batch of 300 aircraft built by Hawker Aircraft Ltd, Langley, Buckinghamshire. EJ504, EJ518-EJ560, EJ577-EJ611, EJ626-EJ672, EJ685-EJ723, EJ739-EJ788, EJ800-EJ846, EJ859-EJ896. Series 2 aircraft, Sabre IIA engines, short-barrel cannon, spring tab ailerons. Deliveries commenced 5-44, completed 9-44; average rate of production approximately 18 aircraft per week.

* Third production batch of 199 aircraft built by Hawker Aircraft Ltd, Langley, Buckinghamshire. NV639-NV682, NV695-NV735, NV749-NV793, NV917-NV948, NV960-NV996. Sabre IIB engines and spring tab ailerons. Deliveries commenced 9-44, completed 2-45; average rate of production approximately 12 aircraft per week.

* Fourth and final production batch of 201 aircraft built by Hawker Aircraft Ltd, Langley, Buckinghamshire. SN102-SN146, SN159-SN190, SN205-SN238, SN253-SN296, SN301-SN355. Sabre IIB engines, universal armament provision and drop tank plumbing. Deliveries commenced 1-45, completed 6-45; average rate of production approximately 9 aircraft per week. SN 368-SN416 cancelled in 1945. 17

Allot of the Series I's (the first 100) were retrofitted to Series II spec (not sure about the Ailerons though) but they did not include the full detachable tail unit.

The Sabre IIA's were also upgraded to IIB spec. Both Sabre IIA's and IIB's could and did run 11lbs boost. AFAIK this was approved before 'Diver' operations.

The Tempest series II circa January 1945 would have almost certainly run at 11lbs producing 2420HP at 3850 rpm. They'd been running it since the previous summer.

Kurfurst:
"There were more 262s around than that, and ie. the 109K at 1.98ata appears to be operated by at least 4 Wings, ie. some 140 aircraft. On 31 January 1945, there were 314 109K present in the Luftwaffe units."

I'll have to check up on units/numbers to confirm that but by February I'm pretty sure thier are 8 Squadrons however none of them were at full strength of 24 aircraft including reserve. However, the big difference is the RAF could get all its Tempests in the air, they didnt have fuel issueshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

crazyivan1970
02-02-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
No boost on the version we getting.

So Oleg found data where they removed the supercharger and was running tempests at 1 atm? I imagine a naturally aspriated tempest would have a pretty low ceiling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naww, i was just fishing lol

WOLFMondo
02-02-2006, 09:18 AM
Given the original FB P47, its very likely Olegs used some super secret russian data where they got a Tempest and used some dodgy fuel and a 2 blade fixed pitch prop. :P

Buzzsaw-
02-02-2006, 09:40 AM
Salute

Kurfursts information on both the Tempest and 109K4 is completely false.

The 109K4 was only officially approved for TESTING purposes for a single staffel. After that in late March '45, it was PROPOSED to be used in other staffels and Gruppes, but there is no proof of any kind which shows the aircraft in these formations actually used this level of boost. The K4's used in the test showed serious mechanical reliability issues. As we know, a Staffel has an establishment of approx. 20 aircraft. In late 1945, the numbers were considerably less.

Kurfurst's figure of 140 K4's in January 1945 is irrelevant, since only the test Staffel was using the K4 at the higher boost rating at that time. By March of 1945, the total of K4's operational had fallen to approx. 80, and of course, there is ZERO proof that any of them were using 1.98 ata.

The Tempest at +13 boost was a standard. The details on these facts are well known, and can be found on this site:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/tempest/temptest.html

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
AFAIK +13 was never an offical rating, the only reference to it some pilot's story. +11 was used by the Sabre IIB engined Tempests (about half of the produced late aircraft did have this engine), and +9 was used by the Sabre IIa engines.

As for Tempests, there were about 6 Squadrons equipped them in total, all versions, which would translate to some 120 planes in service (72 would fly missions of those), or 1 and a half Wing. There were more 262s around than that, and ie. the 109K at 1.98ata appears to be operated by at least 4 Wings, ie. some 140 aircraft. On 31 January 1945, there were 314 109K present in the Luftwaffe units.

The Tempest is also subbing for the Typhoon of which there was ~20 squadrons.

How many of the ~140 109s in the 4 Gruppen were 1.98 K-4s?

In Jan 45, KG51 had only 52 onhand Me262s.

Tempest squadrons as of Jan 45:
3
486
56
501
274
80
33
222

349 and 484 operated Tempests in Feb and Mar.

WOLFMondo
02-02-2006, 10:06 AM
Buzzsaw-, if you look for supporting documentation about the 13lbs boost you won't find much. Yes, it was tested, yes, it was used by Rotol prop equipped Tempests, yes you can find the performance data on 13lbs boost but the data from the Air ministry or RAF saying yes, you can use it has been extremely ellusive. There are a number of Tempest publications out ther but AFAIK none of them have definitive documentation on 13lbs.

If you can find some ancient scrap of barely readable paper saying that either one of these two bodies say 13lbs is approved then send it to Oleg. Otherwise, your flogging a big dead horse with this one. I'm a huge fan of this plane but facts are facts.

What is certain, 100%, is that the Tempest V Series II's ran on 11lbs boost. So anything less you can contest, but anything more is a pipe dream. sorry.

Kurfurst__
02-02-2006, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
The 109K4 was only officially approved for TESTING purposes for a single staffel.

1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11.
That's a Gruppe (Wing), not a Staffel.
A Gruppe was made up by 4 Staffel of 16 aircraft from mid-1944.

What evidence is there about use of high boost by 2nd TAF aircraft in combat in 1945.
I haven't seen a SINGLE squadron document from 1945, or a SINGLE pilot account saying they used high boost.
Doesn't mean there ain't any, of course.

Looks like there's exactly as much evidence for the 2ndTAF as for the 1.98ata 109Ks. And we are getting both Tempests, +25lbs Spits and 1,98ata 109Ks. Fair enough.

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 10:34 AM
1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11. Since when did 2/JG11, a staffel, become II/JG11, a Gruppe?

Staffels used arabic numbers, not Roman.

So testing = 'cleared' now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

lbhskier37
02-02-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11. Since when did 2/JG11, a staffel, become II/JG11, a Gruppe?

Staffels used arabic numbers, not Roman.

So testing = 'cleared' now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess the point is it was tested in operational units. The LW in 1945 didn't have the luxury of testing stuff safely on the other side of an ocean, so anything they were "testing" at that stage was pretty much in combat. I don't really care that we are getting it, its another plane that didn't take any time to put in. The higher boosted A5/A6 would be great though.

The +13 boost tempest may have been used, so if someone can find documentation I think it would be another good addition.

lrrp22
02-02-2006, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
The 109K4 was only officially approved for TESTING purposes for a single staffel.

1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11.
That's a Gruppe (Wing), not a Staffel.
A Gruppe was made up by 4 Staffel of 16 aircraft from mid-1944.

What evidence is there about use of high boost by 2nd TAF aircraft in combat in 1945.
I haven't seen a SINGLE squadron document from 1945, or a SINGLE pilot account saying they used high boost.
Doesn't mean there ain't any, of course.

Looks like there's exactly as much evidence for the 2ndTAF as for the 1.98ata 109Ks. And we are getting both Tempests, +25lbs Spits and 1,98ata 109Ks. Fair enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's just not true, Isegrim. We know for a fact that many Allied engines were cleared for and used increased boost from mid-1944 onwards. You don't know if the 1.98 ata was ever actually cleared for 1.98 ata. The was an *intention* to convert 4 Gruppen to 1.98 sometime after 20 March 45, but we don't know if that boost was even cleared at that late date. Butch has made that abundantly clear and butch2k is your primary source for the use of 1.98 ata.

Your continued attempts to portray 1.98 ata as the equivelant of +11, +21 and +25 lbs boost is intentionally misleading. You know for a fact that all those engines were tested, cleared and operated at those boosts as early as May 1944. The clearance was there, the fuel was there and the orders were there- including for 2nd TAF. 2nd TAF Spit FR XIV's were being delivered to 2nd TAF units at +21 lbs boost- units that were supplied with 150 grade. We know that 2nd TAF Spit XVI units were using +25 lbs until March or April of '45, at which point they were derated to +18 lbs. We have pilot accounts of +13 lbs boost in 2nd TAF Tempests.

For 1.98 ata you don't know if the clearance was there, the fuel may have been there, and you intentions- not orders. 8th Air Force had *intended* to convert to 150 grade and increased boost during the early spring of 1944, but continued problems delayed that for some months. It is *very* likely that the changes described in the 20 March document were not to be realized- virtually none of the other changes described there were made either.

LRRP

Kapteeni
02-02-2006, 11:00 AM
Dont know about the version, but when i was a boy back in seventees, i had a schoolmate who was called Tempest (and i was The Messersmith). You can guess what we were drawing during schooldays. And were gonna have Mossie too!!!

Kurfurst__
02-02-2006, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
You don't know if the 1.98 ata was ever actually cleared for 1.98 ata. The was an *intention* to convert 4 Gruppen to 1.98 sometime after 20 March 45, but we don't know if that boost was even cleared at that late date.

Pretty odd, the LW issueing orders to use a boost that's not even cleared yet, isn't it?
You may call it intention, but that's just playing with words.




The clearance was there, the fuel was there and the orders were there.

What orders?
In what way Nov 1944 paper saying about the 2nd TAF is any way different in nature than the one issued by the LW HQ in March 1945?


For 1.98 ata you don't know if the clearance was there, the fuel may have been there, and you intentions- not orders.

Pretty odd to issue an 'intention' of the Air force, listing the units to use a boost that would not have been cleared yet, AND supply a type fuel to those units that would not at all be required if they are not to run at the new boost, isnt't it?

BTW, how many Mustang IIIs flying at +25lbs boost were around there? TWO squadrons right.. 20-odd planes. It was enough to get them displayed in the sim. Well at the minimum we know that II/JG11 Wing was operating at 1,98ata. Pretty much the same thing, isn't it.

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
I guess the point is it was tested in operational units. The LW in 1945 didn't have the luxury of testing stuff safely on the other side of an ocean, so anything they were "testing" at that stage was pretty much in combat. I don't really care that we are getting it, its another plane that didn't take any time to put in.

The +13 boost tempest may have been used, so if someone can find documentation I think it would be another good addition.
I got no objection to the 1,98 K-4 but I do object to Kurfurst's selective manipulation and interpretation of facts.

There are references in a couple of books I have of Beamont and a NZ pilot (150 Wing) using 150/13lb boost.

Kurfurst__
02-02-2006, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11. Since when did 2/JG11, a staffel, become II/JG11, a Gruppe?

Staffels used arabic numbers, not Roman.

So testing = 'cleared' now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The document says "Gruppe 2/11" not "Staffel 2/11".

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 11:14 AM
LRRP,

Butch: "It flew but to what extend tests made by the II/JG11 with the DB605DC at 1.98ata were positive is not known at this time. Early reports of the 1.90ata test underlined spark plugs troubles as well as mechanical troubles and the insufficient cooling of the 109. Those troubles prompted the decision to deliver all DC engines set to DB standard at 1.8ata.
All those events took place in february, and <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">plans were made</span> to clear it for operational use as underlined by planned unit equipments listing. Now <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">it remains to be seen to what extent it was done before the war ended.</span>"

Kurfurst ignores. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The document says "Gruppe 2/11" not "Staffel 2/11".

The <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">2</span> still designates a staffel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Put any twist you want on it.

How many K-4s were assigned to the unit for testing?

crazyivan1970
02-02-2006, 11:50 AM
luft and kurf, take this to PT, ok? This topic is about Tempest. If you guys had time, you would probably dedicated every gawd dang thread in every forum to whether 25bls flew or not...or 1.98 passed the test or not. Seriosly, guys, enough.

Brain32
02-02-2006, 12:00 PM
Well to open up returning to the Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif let's return to the boost. Well if it's a +9lbs I say fine, 11lbs would be better but hey it's a Tempest that's good enough for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
So what are we looking at with +9lbs, well it should do 610Km/h(378mph) on the deck and 695Km/h(432mph) at 18000ft(6000m?). If it meets this specifications I will be quite satisfied, if it will be +11lbs - satifaction will be multiplied by 11 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WOLFMondo
02-02-2006, 12:15 PM
If we had a series I then 9lbs/sabre IIA is fine. We have a series II so 11lbs/sabre IIB is preferable and allot more appropriate.


Originally posted by luftluuver:

There are references in a couple of books I have of Beamont and a NZ pilot (150 Wing) using 150/13lb boost.

And Roland Beamont is pretty much, or was, an authority on Typhoons and Tempests.

HelSqnProtos
02-02-2006, 01:44 PM
S~!

What part of take it to pm don't you get??

PF_Coastie
02-02-2006, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1,98ata was tested by the "Gruppe 2/11" in February 1945, ie. II/JG11. Since when did 2/JG11, a staffel, become II/JG11, a Gruppe?

Staffels used arabic numbers, not Roman.

So testing = 'cleared' now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The document says "Gruppe 2/11" not "Staffel 2/11". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't matter if it was either. Just because it says it was tested by Gruppe doesnt mean the entire gruppe had one for every pilot. They may have only got one plane for the entire gruppe.

So, If I said the US Airforce has is testing a new jet that runs on water, does that mean every pilot in the Airforce has one? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

crazyivan1970
02-02-2006, 02:19 PM
Ok, i am starting to lose it...slowly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Luft and Kurf, check your PM`s.

Hristo_
02-02-2006, 02:28 PM
Remembering the Tempest from another WW2 sim with decent FM:

Tempest V was faster than the Dora on the deck, better diver, better zoomer, better climber and better at sutained turn (in fact, its sustained turn was slightly better than that of Me 109G-10). Armament was better than that of the Dora, but mainly because M-Geschoss was not modeled as a separate round.

Dora was better in roll and instantenous turn.

The only way to beat a Tempest in a Dora was to fight it from 10kft to 15kft, where it lost performance due to supercharger gear switching or something. Energy tactics worked and one could always get away provided he stayed between 10-15kft of alt.

I'm really interested in seeing how Oleg and team modeled Tempest relative to late war LW planes.

Still, the main weapon in online servers is pilot's brain, as has always been. If for whatever reason Me 262 is not available, I'd pick Fw 190A-6 as a plane to fight against Tempest.

ploughman
02-02-2006, 03:07 PM
I'd read the Tempest pilot would exit from a disadvantage with a descending spiral converted into a straight climb. Lufties would try and draw them above 16,000 ft to exploit the sluggish engine performance.

p1ngu666
02-02-2006, 03:08 PM
its probably modeled at 9lbs currently, so if we kept that one, for early tempest operations, then have teh correct 11lb's to match the 3dmodel.

and the 13lb's boost for 45 endgames.

finding out anything about napier products isnt easy.

for example, few know that the first cars to wear english racing green, where napier ones (the colour comes from ireland, where a race was held due to english speed limit laws)

napier lion, the premier interwar aircraft engine powered the vast majority of british record breakers on land, sea and air. normaly you just hear the guy in the video, or book say "powerful aircraft engine"

just forgotten http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Grey_Mouser67
02-02-2006, 08:49 PM
I would hope that we could get the higher boost version if we don't right off...the Tempest was born to fight Dora's and we won't have the correct plane for the job if we get that low boost version.

Propeller tips....who the heck cares...I can't see em when they are whirling around at 3000 rpms!

VW-IceFire
02-02-2006, 09:04 PM
Here's my line of reasoning here.

1) The most numerous version of the Tempest was the Series II

2) The most used and common version that the Luftwaffe would have faced was the Series II

3) The 3D model of the Tempest we have in game is a Series II

4) Therefore it is logical to conclude that the most common configuration of the Tempest Mark V should be a Sabre IIB with +11lbs of boost. This would make the most sense...this would be the one that actually fought and not the type that saw exactly one air combat operation with Beaumont over France in June 1944.

Historically speaking...that would be the most accurate and make the most sense to me.

But I'm content to wait and see what the patch brings us. Even if it is the Sabre IIA +9lb of boost we're still getting 375mph on the deck and speeds increasing from there. Top speed would not really be affected...but low altitude performance would be. It'll still be very fsat, very potent, very powerful, and loads of fun to fly. But it would not be historical.

Now if we really wanted the uber Tempest then it'd be a Sabre IIC, with +13lbs of boost, a 4 blade Rotol propeller, and we'd paint JF-E "Le Grande Charles" on the default skin and fly that one because Pierre Closterman and some of his fellow pilots flew the ultimate Tempest variant of the war.

Viper2005_
02-02-2006, 09:20 PM
Ivan, why don't you just tell us the answer to the question orginally posted at the start of this thread?

It won't change anything or hurt anyone, especially if the patch really is coming out soon.

The longer this goes on the more O/T rubbish we can expect about other aeroplanes. You have the power to end this thread in a positive manner by just telling is the answer.

Of course you could just lock the topic, but that would be somewhat crass, as another would swiftly spring up to replace it.

The question is legitimate, and if you refuse to answer it, please at least tell us why and be prepared to "face the music" in a fair debate on the issue.

Hristo_
02-02-2006, 09:26 PM
What always made me wonder was the visual appeal of the Tempest. There is no any.

Being a late war fighter, I thought it would borrow a little from Fw 190, Spitfire and P-51. Not the case. The prototypes of Typhoon were the ugliest, but both Typhoon and Tempest are far away from being graceful or beautiful. For me, it is the Dora all the way.

Buzzsaw-
02-02-2006, 11:14 PM
Now I am hearing we will get the +9 boost version of the Tempest.

If this is the case, then the best air superiority fighter the Allies had in WWII will have been done a gross dis-service in IL-2.

I am really hoping this is a false rumour.

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
What always made me wonder was the visual appeal of the Tempest. There is no any.

Being a late war fighter, I thought it would borrow a little from Fw 190, Spitfire and P-51. Not the case. The prototypes of Typhoon were the ugliest, but both Typhoon and Tempest are far away from being graceful or beautiful. For me, it is the Dora all the way.

They look like thoroughbred killing machines.

Hristo_
02-03-2006, 02:04 AM
Well, it is interesting to fight them. I now believe anything less that the Dora or 109K will have a hard time against it. Me 262 will be just right, Tempest is not too slow to hit as other planes often are.

With Dora and 109K, performance is rather close - pilot skill, SA and other factors will decide most engagements.

Spitfire/Tempest combination will prove deadly. One Tempest to catch other planes and pack of Spitfires to finish the job (steal the kill, actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). It is probably right to introduce the Me 262 now, which will finally be legitimate to fly on late war servers.

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 02:45 AM
Hristo, a 9lbs boosted Tempest will not catch a Dora 44 or 45 or Ta152 or K4 1.98 ata on the deck. A 25lbs boosted Spitfire is probably as fast up until 3000ft. At 6000ft and most certainly at 17,000-18,000ft where its power peaks out in the second stage, the Tempest will be extremely fast. But 9lbs boost isn't representative of a Tempest that saw combat over the occupied territories, 9lbs is pre V1 Diver offensive. I hope Oleg knows this.

An 11lbs Tempest would be a different matter, especially in the first 3000ft.

cmirko
02-03-2006, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
Spitfire/Tempest combination will prove deadly. One Tempest to catch other planes and pack of Spitfires to finish the job (steal the kill, actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). It is probably right to introduce the Me 262 now, which will finally be legitimate to fly on late war servers.

pozdrav http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

u think that someone will steal kills from tempest´s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, with those cannons..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, don´t think so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, how many kills were stealed from your fw190s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ?

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 04:02 AM
You'd be surprised how many kills you loose when flying a 190. If you don't make the first past the last pass then when you zoom back up you'll see all the little Messers on the tail of the smoking plane you've critically damaged, pooring 12mm rounds into him to claim the kill. Happens all the time.

Brain32
02-03-2006, 04:34 AM
Yes top reason for many Spit frustrations of Focke flyers(speaking from own expirience) is exactly what Mondo said, you have to return for a second pass giving up enourmus amount of E...
As for the Tempest I really think it should be +11lbs for all reasons IceFire stated. And Hristo, to some of us Tempest is the best looking plane of the war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
02-03-2006, 04:47 AM
the 3d model ingame, which is superb http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif, doesnt convey the agressiveness of the tempest well, IRL they look very very deadly, like a angry killing machine. but effecient, like a knife.

typhoon is a even moreso, just looks like it will smash your face in until its pancake flat, with anything thats to hand, including the victims own limbs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

the 190a8 trainer i saw, had marginal presence in comparison

Aaron_GT
02-03-2006, 05:07 AM
Being a late war fighter, I thought it would borrow a little from Fw 190, Spitfire and P-51. Not the case.

Are you serious, Hristo? The Tempest wing design was influenced by both the Spitfire and P51. The cowling of the Tempest II was derived from that of the Fw 190. The empahsis on speed rather than turn is also similar to the 190. The Fury was even more like a 190.

But at +9 (not a historically correct boost level for a series II machine) it will be sadly underperforming.

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 05:46 AM
Although it was an eliptical wing, it was a true laminar flow wing and controls designed for high speed use. It borrows allot from the P51 and 190.

Ratsack
02-03-2006, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:
...

Spitfire/Tempest combination will prove deadly. One Tempest to catch other planes and pack of Spitfires to finish the job (steal the kill, actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). It is probably right to introduce the Me 262 now, which will finally be legitimate to fly on late war servers.

You've said something very sensible there. In fact this is a scenario currently played out on late-war servers, with the P47D late standing in for the Tempest. It's a nasty combination if you're defensive...which just goes to show that you always be on the attack. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ratsack

ploughman
02-03-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Hristo_:

Spitfire/Tempest combination will prove deadly. One Tempest to catch other planes and pack of Spitfires to finish the job (steal the kill, actually).


"I climbed to 4,000 feet and circled German parachute, three ME109's came in as though protecting it, while coming on the tail of the last enemy aircraft a Spitfire dived through cloud and shot third Me109 down in flames. The remaining two enemy aircraft dived to deck and made off. I returned to base."

F/L L. McAuliffe of No. 222 Squadron recorded on his Combat Report of 2 March 1945:

Pesky kill stealing Spits. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AustinPowers_
02-03-2006, 07:53 AM
11 boost be sure!
Giving a Tempest +9 boost would be like giving a FW-190A4 1.32 ATA.. and we know Oleg doesn't make mistakes like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CHDT
02-03-2006, 08:18 AM
Has a captured Tempest been tested by the Soviet airforce?

:-)

lbhskier37
02-03-2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by CHDT:
Has a captured Tempest been tested by the Soviet airforce?

:-)

Of course, but it was a Jabo Tempest, all Tempests in the east were derated according to Russian sources. Russians pilots didn't fear the Tempest, they were more afraid of the Spits that always were above escorting them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
02-03-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHDT:
Has a captured Tempest been tested by the Soviet airforce?

:-)

Of course, but it was a Jabo Tempest, all Tempests in the east were derated according to Russian sources. Russians pilots didn't fear the Tempest, they were more afraid of the Spits that always were above escorting them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL

No on both accounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No Russian involvement or interest in the Tempest. I'm not sure if its their style...I think they might assume, at least in 1945 VVS thinking, it to be an IL-2 style aircraft when its really not. Actually it might be there style...hard to say...they like cannon armed aircraft and the Tempest has got that in spades.

I've said my bit on why boost should be done the way it is but it'll be hard to say till we actually get it. And if we do...I suppose the only thing to do would be to very calmy grab all reports regarding use of +11lbs, how many squadrons (my assumption is all but they want to know these things), what the numbers and performance curves are, and so forth and do it. But my argument would be for a strictly historical Tempest Mark V Series II and not an uber one because thats not what I want to see. No spring tab ailerons and no over the recommended boost unless there is good evidence.

Grey_Mouser67
02-03-2006, 03:30 PM
The patch is not out and I know he has been reading these forums and knows what is and has been said here.

Now the wait.

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 03:41 PM
Icefire, no one, well some do, want an uber one, just an accurate one.

Some of us are still rememberingthe Fb 1.00 P47http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

VW-IceFire
02-03-2006, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Icefire, no one, well some do, want an uber one, just an accurate one.

Some of us are still rememberingthe Fb 1.00 P47http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
I know I still remember it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It was a victory if you shot down an enemy aircraft during a whole night of flying.

biggs222
02-04-2006, 01:29 AM
hey Ice if you need a wingman gimmie a shout... 2 good wingmen is better than one superace in an uber plane anyday. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

skabbe
02-04-2006, 10:05 AM
all i know is that the AI got 11 boost. thats what it says when you press W and flying it as Ai

Aaron_GT
02-04-2006, 10:09 AM
WOLFmondo: exactly - accurate planes for all sides is all I ask for.

A +9 Tempest might be more like a Typhoon, especially since the Tempest V we have sports rocket rails that weren't used operationally on Tempests in WW2. All we'd need to add (apart from the right 3D model) is a propensity for the tail to fall off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
02-04-2006, 10:43 AM
I'm sure that my MG151/20s can be persuaded to help out in that regard

WOLFMondo
02-04-2006, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
WOLFmondo: exactly - accurate planes for all sides is all I ask for.

A +9 Tempest might be more like a Typhoon, especially since the Tempest V we have sports rocket rails that weren't used operationally on Tempests in WW2. All we'd need to add (apart from the right 3D model) is a propensity for the tail to fall off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

9lbs is accurate for a first production run, pre V1 operations Tempest V series I, so its not totally inaccurate, and even with 9lbs boost, its not all that right on the deck but a 6000ft and 17,000ft it will outrun anything.

VW-IceFire
02-05-2006, 07:34 AM
Yep...+9lbs Tempest V's existed in Series I form...but the 3D model we have has a few refinements that existed only for Series II.

Its not completely a-historical...it just doesn't match.

luftluuver
02-05-2006, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
WOLFmondo: exactly - accurate planes for all sides is all I ask for.

A +9 Tempest might be more like a Typhoon, especially since the Tempest V we have sports rocket rails that weren't used operationally on Tempests in WW2. All we'd need to add (apart from the right 3D model) is a propensity for the tail to fall off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Another of those WW2 myths. Did the Typhoon have some trouble with tail failures, yes but not to the extent some people would like to believe. Engine failures were a bigger problem.

Aaron_GT
02-05-2006, 08:56 AM
I was trying to be humorous, luftluuver,but I guess I missed the mark a bit.