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jimDG
05-30-2006, 08:19 AM
Its quite rare that I get to fly the Me-262 online these days, given how few servers actually have them.
The other day, though, I chanced upon one of the few online dogfight maps that has Me262 vs. La's and Yak's.
Frankly, that plane left me with the most uneasy feeling after the dogfights (got 2 down).
I think its vastly over-rated in the anti-props role.
Dogfights followed one and the same pattern; I fly at 95% throttle at 2500m, at 650-700 km/h, then spot some props bellow or level - they dive (or not - if not I outclimb them), at which point I begin BnZing them with shallow climbs and dives (to maintain lowish, by me-262 standars, speed).
Sounds good in theory, but what actually was going on is
"I see a speck below, I go for the speck, speed reaches 750-850 km/h, if I pull on the stick even half-way I black out, if I reduce throttle I cant accelerate back to any dogfight speed, I just keep on going for the speck, then it turns into a violently maneuvering plane for about 1 microsecond and then turns back into a speck behind me, spewing pointless tracer, I climb to height at 650 km/h."

It just feels as if Im flying a normal prop, except that the oposition are 50cm big, and my alt meter is reading things that should be about three times less.
Its like the world has shrunk three times than its normal size.

Well, it may work great against bombers, but I really dont see how anyone can claim that the Me262 is any threat for props.
It sure can be annoying, but thats about it..
It would be, if if it had good acceleration or speed breaks, or a throtle that you could actually move in a dogfight - but it doesnt.

And if it is flown differently - then its actually a very poor performer.

PBNA-Boosher
05-30-2006, 08:22 AM
It's a large threat against prop fighters, provided you use it correctly. Get up to altitude, make large, wide turns and don't let your speed drop below 500 kph unless you're way above your competition. Your 4 MK108 should do a cleanup job in one pass. Any tactics in the Me-262 that involve immelmans, energy burning, any form of Scissors (split-essing's okay) should be classified as "illegal." Speed is the thing that makes the Me-262 deadly. Never EVER lose it. NEVER, or you'll be hunted down like a dog and shot to pieces.

jimDG
05-30-2006, 08:25 AM
Which is the point. At that difference in speeds/closure rates you cant hit squat with mk108s, that has seen you and is taking avoiding action.
But unlike a fw190, you find yourself too far away (either horizontaly or vertically) after the zoom to actually see where the speck is going or position properly for the next boom.
And the BnZ cicle takes longer than in a fw190, so the opposition has the time to turn across your dive path - while the me-262 is commited to a dive direction due to its inability to make good flight path corrections at speed (or black the pilot out)

Brain32
05-30-2006, 08:50 AM
This is exatly my point of view on the Me262, you can kill something if it doesen't see you that's it, manouverbility is extremely poor compared to prop planes, a simple turn is enough to avoid it. Maybe in a pair they can be dangerous, I don't know. I met 262's online 5-6 times, I shot down one and was never shot down by one...

berg417448
05-30-2006, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
This is exatly my point of view on the Me262, you can kill something if it doesen't see you that's it, manouverbility is extremely poor compared to prop planes, a simple turn is enough to avoid it. Maybe in a pair they can be dangerous, I don't know. I met 262's online 5-6 times, I shot down one and was never shot down by one...

Reminds me of Steinhoff's comments about a combat in the 262 against a group of Soviet fighters. He was frustrated that the enemy fighters continually and easily avoided his attacks.

leitmotiv
05-30-2006, 09:18 AM
The 262 is a lead sled versus props---for a real brawl go against four Mustangs with two He 162s---it is a sports job and you will have a good time if you don't mess with your throttle.

MrMojok
05-30-2006, 09:29 AM
Boosh, don't you think 500 km/h is a bit slow in a 262? Or do you slow down that much in order to be able to shoot more accurately?

Top_Gun_1_0_1
05-30-2006, 09:57 AM
H I S T O R I C A L L Y!!!

Yes there is!!!!
Try to catch em' during T/O and landing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
USAAF is very good at doing this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But on a 1 on 1 basis...."No chance in Hell"

ME-262 is the best in the business in the european skies during WWII http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LStarosta
05-30-2006, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Top_Gun_1_0_1:
H I S T O R I C A L L Y!!!

Yes there is!!!!
Try to catch em' during T/O and landing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
USAAF is very good at doing this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But on a 1 on 1 basis...."No chance in Hell"

ME-262 is the best in the business in the european skies during WWII http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Seems to me like all you ever do is repeat everything you hear on the History Channel.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-30-2006, 11:17 AM
The best tactic is to perch up high (I mean HIGH) in a jug and dive down after one of these kerosene burners as they start their zoom. Inevitibly, they'll be watching the lower/slower birds and flying accordingly. That's when I 'strike-the-match' that is their jet engines. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

This works almost every time...it just takes a bit of patience.



TB

StellarRat
05-30-2006, 11:29 AM
Deadly against bombers and fighters that don't see it, but against fighters that are "aware" not too dangerous. Main problem is slow acceleration. Takes forever to get back to speed. That's why you NEVER get into a turn fight in one. If you're in trouble drop the nose and get your speed back. P-47 in a dive is the only thing that can catch one.

Lucius_Esox
05-30-2006, 12:02 PM
Whenever 262's have been on a server I'm flying, and I'm in a fighter, their value is almost nuisance only, to fighters.

If you and your wingman keep your eyes as peeled as they should be it's a case of "Oh here comes that bl00dy 262 again lol)

I would not like to be in a bomber when they are about though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

It must be very frustrating being a pilot in one at times, as well as pretty nice as well.

I don't know much about the 108's but is it possible to shoot at all accurately at range??

I suppose against fighter pilots who don't look around much they could be awesome because they can cover so much ground so quickly.

Is the smoke out the back there at all throttle openings because that is a dead giveaway.

Top_Gun_1_0_1
05-30-2006, 12:02 PM
The ME-262s downfall lies at its engine!
so vulnerable indeed,I can easyly burst its engine on my P-80's K-14 gunsight!

But the prop planes can always use "teamwork" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

lbhskier37
05-30-2006, 12:12 PM
Who cares if fighters can avoid you. If you are flying in a 262 your job is to destroy bombers. The 262 in dogfight servers is only useful if that server has a lot of dedicated bomber pilots, or if their are good heavily defended objectives deep in enemy territory. At anti-bomber the 262 is second to none, and for interdiction missions deep behind lines its second IMHO only to the DO-335.

Lucius_Esox
05-30-2006, 12:24 PM
Who cares if fighters can avoid you. If you are flying in a 262 your job is to destroy bombers. The 262 in dogfight servers is only useful if that server has a lot of dedicated bomber pilots, or if their are good heavily defended objectives deep in enemy territory. At anti-bomber the 262 is second to none, and for interdiction missions deep behind lines its second IMHO only to the DO-335.



I agree. It does seem odd though that it gets called the best "fighter" of the 2WW. Best bomber interceptor maybe, best interdiction strike aircraft as well, but fighter ???

WOLFMondo
05-30-2006, 01:02 PM
262's online end up being the allies favorite target and everyone goes after them. Best to fly a Dora or Ta152 and pick of the guys target fixated on the 262's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Best tactic for getting kills is go for the unsuspecting and be patient, avoid using 95% thrust or over as you'll leave the trails of smoke. Also go for single planes, you can bet there not on teamspeak and there clearly nott with a wing man so have only one set of eyes to see you. Due to the 262's speed you can loiter right in the middle of enemy territory as well and pick of the slow fat Jugs climbing there way up at 180mph. 262's are good vulchers as well.

Megile_
05-30-2006, 01:57 PM
262's are uber.

R988z
05-30-2006, 02:19 PM
on one server that had a reoccuring late war set with 262s, I would always fly a P-39Q or N and get highish and on my own, out in the middle of nowhere, then an inexperienced 262 jock (you can always tell they are inexperienced when they complain about and ask why the engines keep bursting into flames http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif) then why they finally make it into the air, they see P-39, think it's **** and an easy target. So I sit there watching them come barrelling in with a huge smoke trail giving them away, hold my nerve until the last moment then cut away, then cut back in, time it right and you will slip right in behind the 262 after it's made a pass and get a few shots off, a few times I've got lucky with the 37mm, which makes short work of a 262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif or they are really stupid they actually try and turn the 262 making it a sitting duck, I have a number of 262 kills in P-39s this way, you do have to rely on the other pilot being an idiot, but then that's pretty much how I get all my kills (and also how I get shot down from doing something stupid myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

RocketDog
05-30-2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Who cares if fighters can avoid you. If you are flying in a 262 your job is to destroy bombers.

In real life, the 262s were sometimes tasked to intercept the escorting Mustangs in the hope that they could be driven away from the bombers and/or made to drop their tanks early. This would then supposedly allow the Luftwaffe's piston-engined fighters to attack the bombers without being hammered by the escorts. As with most late-war Luftwaffe tactics, there is little evidence that it worked.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

justflyin
05-30-2006, 04:03 PM
Allies, be thankful Hitler forced the 262 into becoming a fighter-bomber.

As for in-game, let just say this about any match-up online and you can quote me:

"The same skills that made Aces in WWII, make Aces in this game. Less the G-Forces, of course."

Online dogfighting is dominated by the best shooters who use their grey matter to its fullest extent. In the hands of an expert, a prop is just a sitting duck, wondering when and I repeat, WHEN they will get vaporized by the 262.

They can only avoid for so long and if he is truly a smart 262 pilot, the prop will never even be able to bear guns on him.

The only thing that helps them these days is that deflection shooting in a 262 is comical at best. A mere flick of the rudder and you can avoid a diving 262's guns these days.

justflyin
05-30-2006, 04:05 PM
Opinionated bastage, ain't I?

LStarosta
05-30-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:

They can only avoid for so long and if he is truly a smart 262 pilot, the prop will never even be able to bear guns on him.



That can be said of many other airplanes in Il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HellToupee
05-30-2006, 04:43 PM
try being the fighter on the receving end, all u can do is dodge each pass, 262s do no need altitude, most planes wll break up in dives just trying to reach its level flight speed, never zoom most 262s shot down are at top of zooms or an idiot turning at low speeds. U just need to be a good shot u only need like one hit but u need alota lead for those high speed passes but with 4 30mm and alot of firing time u can really rack up kills pretty easy.

Von_Rat
05-30-2006, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
Its quite rare that I get to fly the Me-262 online these days, given how few servers actually have them.
The other day, though, I chanced upon one of the few online dogfight maps that has Me262 vs. La's and Yak's.
Frankly, that plane left me with the most uneasy feeling after the dogfights (got 2 down).
I think its vastly over-rated in the anti-props role.
Dogfights followed one and the same pattern; I fly at 95% throttle at 2500m, at 650-700 km/h, then spot some props bellow or level - they dive (or not - if not I outclimb them), at which point I begin BnZing them with shallow climbs and dives (to maintain lowish, by me-262 standars, speed).
Sounds good in theory, but what actually was going on is
"I see a speck below, I go for the speck, speed reaches 750-850 km/h, if I pull on the stick even half-way I black out, if I reduce throttle I cant accelerate back to any dogfight speed, I just keep on going for the speck, then it turns into a violently maneuvering plane for about 1 microsecond and then turns back into a speck behind me, spewing pointless tracer, I climb to height at 650 km/h."

It just feels as if Im flying a normal prop, except that the oposition are 50cm big, and my alt meter is reading things that should be about three times less.
Its like the world has shrunk three times than its normal size.

Well, it may work great against bombers, but I really dont see how anyone can claim that the Me262 is any threat for props.
It sure can be annoying, but thats about it..
It would be, if if it had good acceleration or speed breaks, or a throtle that you could actually move in a dogfight - but it doesnt.

And if it is flown differently - then its actually a very poor performer.

you sound like you got the flying part down ok.

heres my advice on tactics. make that speed work for you. you mention how fast you close on a enemy,that means you can sneak up on a enemy fighter in a very short time. make sure you never make smoke unless emergency, drop down to his very low six as you approach, and then start climbing up to blast him. as you can see this gives two advantages. he probaly wont spot you against ground, and he's easy to see against sky, and you burn off a little speed as you climb, making shooting easier. if you miss just keep going, but always, and i mean always, check for higher bandits as you zoom. ive zipped along the deck at 850kph and zoomed up and blasted guys at less than 1k. who were probaly looking up hi wondering where that 262 was. lol.

if you miss don't waste time on that fighter. you mentioned that it seems the world has shrunk. make use of that to. with your speed you can quickly be far away, and setting up another unsuspecting fighter in just a couple of minutes. somtimes i would zoom one guy, miss, then go a grid or so away zoom another guy, kill him. then go back and zoom and kill the first guy, who by now has forgotten about me.

with the me262a1, i managed to kill 15 enemy planes, most if not all fighters, in 11 sorties on warclouds, actually 9, i lost connection twice. i didnt lose a me262a1 to enemy action. of the 3 losses i have in stats there, 2 are from losing connection, {before i even got into action} because of bad cable modem, and 1 by landing to fast and rolling way off the runway.

for some reason im really bad with the me262 2a though, i guess im just not a bomber guy.

WTE_Galway
05-30-2006, 05:37 PM
Actually you get the same problem flying a late war prop fighter against the P11c.

How do you hit something that flies virtually at your stall speed and can split S at 200 metres and still not CFIT ??

Badsight.
05-30-2006, 11:11 PM
wow

the thread starter really cracks me up

ive equalled my second best ever DF sortie using a 262 - they are total killer

if you fly carefully - you will never get much success . regardless of the plane used . this is aircombat , get aggressive!

jimDG
05-31-2006, 01:37 AM
oh, dont get me wrong, Im a pretty good pilot and exellent shot, even with the mk108, I was merely pointing out the over-rated-ness.

My current favourite is the Il2-field mod (latter versions are much heavier and less maneuverable); in this I get up to 3 kills per sortie, against the 109s/110s of the same time period (and the same quality of opposition pilots) - beats the me262, at least in my hands
http://www.il2hq.com/Stats/playerdetails.php?id=201

I couldnt (and wouldnt) get violent in a me262 out of pure vanity - Id rather circle, shallow dive, shallow climb for ages, than rake kills but take the possibility to get shot down in a me262 by a prop, if a good pilot happened to be about (and they were pretty good)! The disgrace! The horror!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
05-31-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by justflyin:
Allies, be thankful Hitler forced the 262 into becoming a fighter-bomber.

As for in-game, let just say this about any match-up online and you can quote me:

"The same skills that made Aces in WWII, make Aces in this game. Less the G-Forces, of course."

Online dogfighting is dominated by the best shooters who use their grey matter to its fullest extent. In the hands of an expert, a prop is just a sitting duck, wondering when and I repeat, WHEN they will get vaporized by the 262.

They can only avoid for so long and if he is truly a smart 262 pilot, the prop will never even be able to bear guns on him.

The only thing that helps them these days is that deflection shooting in a 262 is comical at best. A mere flick of the rudder and you can avoid a diving 262's guns these days.

u might want to try the 262 as a jabo mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

i find in really funny how ppl go, OH NOES, dont make it jabo, dont make it jabo, mummy!! tell them not to make it jabo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

like, oh jeez 2 mk108 is insufficent http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

the ingame 262 falls down short on fuel consumption, it seems to last *ages*.

it wasnt pertickly manoverable, infact PR aircraft would dance around the sky until jets hadto rtb.

the AI can certainly DF with them very well, probably jsut the ai tho

HellToupee
05-31-2006, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
pilots) - beats the me262, at least in my hands

exactly

justflyin
05-31-2006, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:

They can only avoid for so long and if he is truly a smart 262 pilot, the prop will never even be able to bear guns on him.



That can be said of many other airplanes in Il-2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As your mileage seems to vary, I can readily stalemate or turn the tables on 7 or 8 out of every 10 B and Zers that come my way, same yearish prop against prop. The B and Zers who attack me either wind up:

a. Getting frustrated, giving up and flying away from missing so many times;

or

b. Getting frustrated from missing so much that they keep coming lower and lower until they go that few hundred meters too low and cant get back up fast enough to get away from my murderous gunnery;

or

c. They dive and make the slightest extra turn, thinking they can get that one snap shot in before going back up and watch me do a wingover and follow them right back up into the zoom climb, where my 20mm hispanos generally end it right there. Deadly accurate gunnery out to 500m takes care of that.

or

d. Guessing right on one of their dives and since there are only so many moves available, depending upon bogey's dive angle, catch me with a cannon shell or two and cause me to RTB, bail, or get shot down.

That said, a 262 above you can out dive any prop, accelerate up into a zoom climb coming out of an 800km/h dive for much longer than a prop. If done right, the prop is just waiting for the BOOM, unless the 262 pilot is not that bright or makes a huge mistake.

Of course, everybody gets shot down. I just make it as few as possible. It's all about the kill/death ratio. Points are meaningless, but for bragging on point/stat ***** servers.

jimDG
05-31-2006, 09:33 AM
Very true of BnZ in general (and with 2x23mm and 60 sec firing time you can shoot up to 800m and hold the trigger until it connectshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), but when it comes to me262 - it has 6sec firing time of the 4 guns. This is the biggest limitation to indefinite BnZ in a me262. You could use the guns in pairs an get 10 sec, but its still less than what most cannon armed fighters carry.
(And I assume one accurate burst is enough for either 20mm or 30mm)

justflyin
05-31-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
...but when it comes to me262 - it has 6sec firing time of the 4 guns.

My god man, that's an eternity of 30mms!!! With 0.5 second bursts per kill, I could bring home a baker's dozen of bogeys. hehehe

RocketDog
05-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:
Allies, be thankful Hitler forced the 262 into becoming a fighter-bomber.


Popular folklore, but probably not true. From one account I have read, the decision to develop a fighter-bomber version of the Me-262 only delayed the fighter version by about six weeks.

Overall, I think it's very over-rated as a fighter. It really needed another year of development.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

justflyin
05-31-2006, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by RocketDog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:
Allies, be thankful Hitler forced the 262 into becoming a fighter-bomber.


Popular folklore, but probably not true. From one account I have read, the decision to develop a fighter-bomber version of the Me-262 only delayed the fighter version by about six weeks.

Overall, I think it's very over-rated as a fighter. It really needed another year of development.

Cheers,

RocketDog. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Up until you wrote that, everything I had read from Jane's books to the History Channel, has always quoted this direct order from Hitler and how it went against what the LW wanted the 262 for.

However, not that I doubt what you say, it just made sense to me everytime I read or heard it, as Hitler made many errors in judgement along the way, thankfully. Thanks for posting, I'll do more research.

bird_brain
05-31-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justflyin:
Allies, be thankful Hitler forced the 262 into becoming a fighter-bomber.


Popular folklore, but probably not true. From one account I have read, the decision to develop a fighter-bomber version of the Me-262 only delayed the fighter version by about six weeks.

Overall, I think it's very over-rated as a fighter. It really needed another year of development.

Cheers,

RocketDog. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Up until you wrote that, everything I had read from Jane's books to the History Channel, has always quoted this direct order from Hitler and how it went against what the LW wanted the 262 for.

However, not that I doubt what you say, it just made sense to me everytime I read or heard it, as Hitler made many errors in judgement along the way, thankfully. Thanks for posting, I'll do more research. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hitler did make the direct order to produce them as bombers, but General Galland had an experimental group operating them as fighters the whole time anyway. They were more limited by production problems, inexperienced pilots and fuel shortages than they were by Hitler.

The fighter-bomber groups that were formed...(including JG7 I believe) reverted to the bomber intercept role and only had the disadvantage of 2 cannons instead of 4. They all eventually were shot down, destroyed on the ground, overrun by the Allies, or joined JV44 with ex-General Galland.

The main delay in the plan to produce the Me262 was probably the focus on the V weapons which took up most of the time of the jet propulsion experts. That was where Hitler undermined the jet fighter development in it's early stages. It could have been in production at least a year earlier without those programs, but producing them as fighter-bombers didn't actually create much of a delay.

The other point is that it really doesn't matter what you are flying if you get shot down before you can get off the ground, your fuel is getting blown up & strafed, your mechanics are all being killed, and you run into bomb craters every time you try to land. Have you ever tried to take off from an airfield online with about 12 enemy fighters circling overhead? Imagine that in a jet fighter in 1945.

I know this is not relevent to the 262's flying qualities online, but a war machine is only useful if you have the chance to use it for it's designed purpose. It really wasn't built to be a dogfighter, even if it would have been a pretty good one.

I have a lot of information on the subject and read alot about it while making an Me262 Campaign. If you are really interested, I can point you to a few good books.

justflyin
05-31-2006, 01:34 PM
OK, good information b_b. Thanks for that. I probably put more emphasis on Hitler's order affecting the 262, than I meant to, looking back on my initial post.

I just felt it relevant to the topic. I shall certainly keep you in mind for sources if I ever want to learn more about the 262.

The only problem is, everytime I learn something new these days, I forget something I already knew. <Homer Simpson>

MB80
05-31-2006, 02:45 PM
The 262 is a prop fighter killer in the game. But you have to know how you should use it, I flew today the 262 for the first time online and I had alot of kills; like in ww2 it is only vulnerable during start and landing.. also by bomber gunners and if you fly it the wrong way. It's a fast B&Z fighter, fly allways at full speed, circle slow at full speed (800kph). To attack fighters just fly to the area where they are, pick one, attack him at full speed and fly away (at the same alt). If you can't get him good, just fly another round. They can't follow you at good speed (92-96%), if you've lost speed, dive a little bit. The Mk108 is strong enough, 1 second bursts kill every single engine fighter.

bird_brain
05-31-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:
OK, good information b_b. Thanks for that. I probably put more emphasis on Hitler's order affecting the 262, than I meant to, looking back on my initial post.
You're welcome. You might even like to fly our (HotSpace & myself) semi-historical campaign. I have a link in my sig to my webpage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Don't feel bad about thinking Hitler single handedly lost the war for the Luftwaffe by making bad tactical decisions.... He did. It started when he decided to bomb London to get revenge and left the British fighter strips and radar stations alone, and continued through the V weapons & ended with the 262. The war was already lost by then anyway. There is alot more to the story than is readily apparent at first. It is just hard to find the information because alot of the records were destroyed.

justflyin
05-31-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by bird_brain:
You're welcome. You might even like to fly our (HotSpace & myself) semi-historical campaign. I have a link in my sig to my webpage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I shall have to give that one a try. Thanks again.

jimDG
05-31-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
...but when it comes to me262 - it has 6sec firing time of the 4 guns.

My god man, that's an eternity of 30mms!!! With 0.5 second bursts per kill, I could bring home a baker's dozen of bogeys. hehehe </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

only from 6o'clock. If you have to cut someone across at 90 deg deflection then its the total RPM that matters most (all guns in total), at least in my experience. Other wise they slip in between the rounds, especially with just one mk108, or target high speeds

Jumoschwanz
05-31-2006, 04:13 PM
On the full-real G1 server, I shot down four or five IL-2s with a Me262 in one sortie.
I flew low between the enemy base and the target area, kept my speed up around 700km/hr, and found a formation of them heading toward my armor. I just kept making passes and coming around in large circles that kept my speed up and none of many La-7s even touched me.

Flying low this way, any fighter that is low enough to see you, will not be high enough to pick up speed in a dive to catch you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and you can pick off low flying planes all day long.

Another Jumo-secret, keep your throttle at 94% once you get up to speed and you can hold 700km/hr and better while leaving no exhaust trail, that way no one knows what you are from any distance as you leave no tell-tale jet-trail.

Once again, as Yeager said, it is the pilot and not the plane.....

Jumoschwanz

Badsight.
05-31-2006, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
[only from 6o'clock. If you have to cut someone across at 90 deg deflection then its the total RPM that matters most (all guns in total), at least in my experience. Other wise they slip in between the rounds, especially with just one mk108, or target high speeds from any position , one trigger pull is all thats needed to down any plane in FB with the Me-262

if you RTB using the Schwalb with less than 6 kills - you dont have good aim

i have seen another person beat 8000 points in one sortie (& been told he went past 10,000 points - 25+ bombers) & i also have managed over 8000 (same coop mis) , i have managed to equal my second best ever DF room sortie (10 kills) with it - its total killer & you dont have to BnZ fighters to get them

joeap
06-01-2006, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
from any position , one trigger pull is all thats needed to down any plane in FB with the Me-262

if you RTB using the Schwalb with less than 6 kills - you dont have good aim

i have seen another person beat 8000 points in one sortie (& been told he went past 10,000 points - 25+ bombers) & i also have managed over 8000 (same coop mis) , i have managed to equal my second best ever DF room sortie (10 kills) with it - its total killer & you dont have to BnZ fighters to get them

Ah well then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

jimDG
06-01-2006, 07:13 AM
ok, those a different things.
there are three scenarios:
(and I assume good pilots and good shots in all of them)

1) me 262 vs. 2-4 engined bomber
Me 262 wins in all cases

2) me 262 vs. il2
Il2 is too slow to evade 30mm burst- too big to be in a 90deg angle across a mk108 burst (it will get hit). The only thing a il2 pilot can do is outgun the me262 i.e. by pointing its guns in the direction of the me262 on a gunnery run, and hold the trigger.
il2 can shoot up to 800m with the 23mm, me262 can start shooting at 500 (lots of round drop at bigger ranges).
Il2 can point its guns at a me262 because of the large time gap bewteen subsequent boom/gun runs.
Il2 wins.

3)me 262 vs. prop fighter.
Prop fighter is a small and fast target that can't be hit with a 0.5 sec burst from mk108s, if it is at 90 deg deflection (or rather - can, but not with any certainty in any gun run - lots of lead needed). Longer bursts needed across the path of such a target, to ensure a hit, and thats only if the path is not changing. And a smart prop fighter pilot will be in a turn, rather than heading straight across the me262 gunsight.
If prop fighter exposes 6, or 12 to a me262 when the shooting begins - he's dead.
Me262 gets one-two kills in a sortie.

I also assume that the me262 will not be looping, or otherwise loosing speed at any point, to avoid being bounced by a prop with height, and that it would not be diving steeply (wont be able to get out of the dive or make path corrections if it begins at height). if it was diving steeply than the il2 would not be able to elevate his guns high enough and loose. But the me262 would pick too much speed to shoot acurately.
And, of course, I also assume everyone sees everyone - i.e. there is no surprise.

That said, a me262 can get lots of kills against unsuspectfull or inexperienced oposition, which is often the case, and likewise, an inexperienced me262 pilot is easy meat.

I was describing two sorties where noone made any mistakes.

ps. actually, from my point of view the guns are the biggest shortfall of the me262 - I would not be afraid to loose speed even with small acceleration and low maneuverability if I could shoot far away at large angles (as in a similarly cumbersome il2, at low speed). All that's needed in a me262 is two mk103s, or four mk151s, to make me happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

MrMojok
06-01-2006, 11:24 AM
What books did you read about the 262, BB?

StellarRat
06-01-2006, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
That said, a me262 can get lots of kills against unsuspectfull or inexperienced oposition, which is often the case... Isn't this case in all air combat?

jimDG
06-01-2006, 06:28 PM
Yes. Being in a stalemate when the opposition is not ususpecting and inexperienced is what is not the case for most plane match-ups.

Choctaw111
06-01-2006, 09:18 PM
I had a unique opportunity to sit down and talk with Captain Urban "Ben" Drew a few years back. He is the only one to have shot down TWO (as in 2) Me262 jets in one sortie! He had a lot of stories to tell. He later recieved a belated Air Force Cross in lieu of a Distinguished Service Cross for his heroic feat that day. I am not sure if he is still alive. I have tried to look him up but have not been able to find him since we have talked last.

bird_brain
06-02-2006, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
What books did you read about the 262, BB?
"German Jet Aces of WWII" ~ Osprey AC of the Aces #17
"The First & the Last" ~ Adolf Galland
"The Luftwaffe War Diaries" ~ Cajus Bekker
"JG7 The World's 1st Jet Fighter Unit" ~ Manfred Boehme
+ Limited references in "To Win the Winter Sky" (262's in the Battle of the Bulge) a couple of books about WWII Aces that had some good references & stories.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

RocketDog
06-02-2006, 06:57 AM
"The Last Year of the Luftwaffe", by Price is an interesting read about the 262 and other aircraft.

Cheers,

RD.

MB80
06-02-2006, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
Prop fighter is a small and fast target that can't be hit with a 0.5 sec burst from mk108s, if it is at 90 deg deflection (or rather - can, but not with any certainty in any gun run - lots of lead needed)....

ps. actually, from my point of view the guns are the biggest shortfall of the me262 -

jimDG, Do you know how to handle a FW190A8/A9 with Mk108s?? You can fly the 262 like the fw190A8/A9 the difference is just the speed. With the FW190A9 for example, or the Ta, you've got just 2 sec for aiming if you fly them in the right way (allways fast), that's enough, also enough are 1-2sec for aiming with a 262. You can kill every fighter in front of you, also if he is 600m above. But it's hard to kill him if he dives in a circle in front of you, that's the same problem with a FW190A9..
The trick with the mk108 is shooting at the enemy fighter when he is very near; double revi size maybe.. and passes the revi for just a second. If you train to kill enemies this way, the 262 is a fast deadly weapon, like the 109s, 190s or the Ta with Mk108s. One hit one kill.

AKA_TAGERT
06-02-2006, 08:51 AM
It's NOT jet vs. prop.. it is more basic than that. It is BnZ vs. TnB. That is to say it is your ride vs. thier ride.

When your ride is a P51 and thier ride is a Me262 than you should be using TnB tatics and they should be using BnZ tatics.

When your ride is a P51 and thier ride is a P11 than you should be using BnZ tatics and they should be using TnB tatics.

So, with that said it should be clear that there is no such thing as a BnZ or TnB plane. Because it is all relitive.. relitive to the plane you are engaged with.

Perfect real world example.. The F4u was a BnZ plane relitive to most of the IJN and IJA stuff during WWII, but in KOREA The F4u was a TnB plane relitive to the MiG.

You adjust your tatics, not your plane, based on the plane your engaging. That is why they say.. Know your enemy. If you dont know what your up againts, you dont know which tatics to apply.

AKA_TAGERT
06-02-2006, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by jimDG:
oh, dont get me wrong, Im a pretty good pilot and exellent shot, even with the mk108, I was merely pointing out the over-rated-ness. Most servers dont exclude them because they are ubar, they exclude them because they were historically very limited in numbers. Thus the chances of seeing one was very small.. about as small as you finding a server that has them.. Hence realism by limiting thier usage.

MB80
06-02-2006, 03:21 PM
1433 were build, 200-250 were in action/rdy to fly at the same time from summer 1944 to the end of the war in europe.. not enough? mhmhm.. No, I would say, they think the 262 is "Uber"

Hashmark13
06-02-2006, 04:23 PM
Flown properly, there is no prop plane that can touch the 262, ever. That's all there is to say about it.

carguy_
06-02-2006, 04:47 PM
I do it pretty simple.I make sure that when the victim hears me coming it`s already too late to evade.

Funny thing is they hear me and immediately go horizontal uncovering their guts to my 30mm.


The Me262 is very safe plane given you have historical planeset.Be careful against AI though.It does funny stuff.Once I had an AI P47 climbing with me.Didn`t want to leave me even when I fled 5km from him.

AKA_TAGERT
06-02-2006, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by MB80:
1433 were build, 200-250 were in action/rdy to fly at the same time from summer 1944 to the end of the war in europe.. not enough? mhmhm.. No, I would say, they think the 262 is "Uber" Ah, I see your problem. When I said very limited in numbers it is generally understood that I am referring to the Me262s number *relative* to other aircraft.

1433 is a big number.. at first glance.. but to understand how big you have to look at the other planes production numbers. At which point even you will see that what I said holds true, that being the Me262 was limited in numbers. Another way to look at it is relative to total aircraft production. Germany produced 55,727 FIGHTER aircraft during WWII. Therefore the Me262 production numbers percentage relative to Germany€s total FIGHTER production is only ~3%

100*[1,433/(55,727-1,433)]
100*[1,433/(54294)]
100*[0.02639]
2.639%
~3%

Thus, what I said holds true..

But Germany was not fighting itself. So we should see what the Me262 production percentage was relative to one of the allied. The USA produced 99,950 FIGHTER aircraft during WWII. Therefore the Me262 production numbers percentage relative to the USA€s total FIGHTER production is only ~1%

100*[1,433/99,950]
100*[0.014337]
1.4337%
~1%

Thus, what I said holds true..

And that is just the USA, there was the Russians at 63,087 and the UK at 49,422.

So, 1,433 might sound like a big number.. but in comparison to other numbers it is not and therefore you are in error to believe the Me262 numbers were NOT limited... Relitvly speaking

GR142-Pipper
06-02-2006, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Hashmark13:
Flown properly, there is no prop plane that can touch the 262, ever. That's all there is to say about it. True. I don't see how those who fly jets get any feeling of accomplishment when their plane is all but untouchable by their opponents. Why even play the game?

GR142-Pipper

Von_Rat
06-02-2006, 09:36 PM
heres some interesting numbers from the book last year of the luftwaffe.

serviceable aircraft on apiril 9th 1945 for luftflotte reich. thats the luftflotte charged with the air defence of germany.

"389 serviceable fighters, of which just over a hundred were jet propelled."

the exact numbers of serviceable fighter aircraft given are...

101,,, bf109

89,,, me262

22,,, me163

175,,, fw190

2,,,,, ta152



note,,, these are servicable numbers, if you use avaiable numbers, the number of 262s goes up quite a bit.

looks like a good percentage of german planes flying at the end of war in defence of the reich were 262s, reltively speaking.

if you got a late war map on a server with everybody blue flying k4s, tas, d9s, do335s, it looks like the 262 has just as much right to be there.
if you chose earlier dates the number of 262s is smaller of course, but so is the numbers of k4, d9s smaller, and tas and do's werent even flying. note 262 was in service before k4, d9, ta, or do.

262 production, and even in service numbers compare well to k4s or d9s, both of which you see on nearly every servers late war maps. but no 262 on those maps. if numbers were the real reason, then k4s and d9s not to mention tas should be just about as scarce on servers as 262.


theres also plenty of servers with totally unhistorical latewar planesets, 262s are banned from them as well.

in other words the reason most late war maps on servers have no 262 is because they are perceived uber.

but its the pilot not the plane of course.

MB80
06-02-2006, 11:43 PM
AKA_TAGERT,
I wouldn't say that this number of 262 was in action, the main problem of '44 and '45 was the lack of fuel and pilots for the LW, also the problems with the jet engines. These are the reasons why they weren't used often. Add Hitlers stupidity, his illusion that attack is better than defense, which led to the Me 262 A2...

1433 is a big number for such an aircraft, compare it with the Spit MK IX (~7180 were produced). In comparison, there were ~200 Me 109k in action, just one 109z was build and not in combat, or the Ta 152 with 67 used ones.

You also shouldn't compare the whole german fighter production in ww2 to the last war years ('44-'45), or the allied fighter production (how much of these ~100 000 build U.S. fighters were in real combat in a fighter role?).

Just have a look at the 300 shot down me262 and at the LW "Aces" listings with Me262..

and believe me, the most servers ignore the me 262 because of the speed, a spit IX 25lbs can't follow.. so better don't list the 262s, they are "Uber" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by MB80:
I wouldn't say that this number of 262 was in action, Roger, as you ponited out only about 200 or so were in action.. thus the chance of seeing one would have been alot lower.. But I wanted to give the Me262 the benifit of the doubt, even if all were used.. they only made up about 2% of the German production.. Thus LIMITED by any standard.


Originally posted by MB80:
the main problem of '44 and '45 was the lack of fuel and pilots for the LW, also the problems with the jet engines. Agreed, three of the biggest, but not the only problems


Originally posted by MB80:
These are the reasons why they weren't used often. Roger, alot of those reasons were the reasons the allieds did so poorly at the start of the war.. but when people reflect on that they dont point out those problems.. the point at the planes.. Funny the doulbe standards that go on sometimes


Originally posted by MB80:
Add Hitlers stupidity, his illusion that attack is better than defense, which led to the Me 262 A2... Hitler was not as dumb as some think.. Germany stood no chance of a long drawn out defensive war.. Hitler knew the blitz type tatics was thier only chance.. Thus his motivation to make the Me262 an attack plane.. He thought he could regain some of that early blitz like sucess


Originally posted by MB80:
1433 is a big number for such an aircraft, compare it with the Spit MK IX (~7180 were produced). Enh, not in my book.


Originally posted by MB80:
In comparison, there were ~200 Me 109k in action, just one 109z was build and not in combat, or the Ta 152 with 67 used ones. All of which fit the definition of LIMITED by wars end.


Originally posted by MB80:
You also shouldn't compare the whole german fighter production in ww2 to the last war years ('44-'45), Which is why I did both.. in either case the statment holds up.. LIMITED no mater how you look at it.


Originally posted by MB80:
or the allied fighter production (how much of these ~100 000 build U.S. fighters were in real combat in a fighter role?). Not sure, but you can bet a higher percentage of them were than the German ones at any point in the war.


Originally posted by MB80:
Just have a look at the 300 shot down me262 and at the LW "Aces" listings with Me262.. Does not disprove the fact that they were LIMITED in the skys relitive to allied planes. Some ALLIED pilots flew thousnads of sorties and never saw a Me262 but saw plenty of other German aircraft.


Originally posted by MB80:
and believe me, the most servers ignore the me 262 because of the speed, a spit IX 25lbs can't follow.. so better don't list the 262s, they are "Uber" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif WRT the Quake shoot em up TnB servers that have every plane aval to both sides except the Me163, He162, Me262, P80, Ki84c.. I agree.. They are too uber for the skill level of those types and does not fit in well with the Quake mindset. But uber is NOT the reason for the historic servers.. they leave them out of most if not all of their mapes because the fact is that in real life the chances of seeing one was very SMALL due to the LIMITED numbers.. Thus adding just "1" to a room of "32" planes would be very un-realistic

Badsight.
06-03-2006, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
in other words the reason most late war maps on servers have no 262 is because they are perceived uber. of course

you can try & rationalise it as realistic because low numbers made them a rare sight & hence the reason from them left out of DF rooms is realisim

but it would be baloney

MB80
06-03-2006, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
WRT the Quake shoot em up TnB servers that have every plane aval to both sides except the Me163, He162, Me262, P80, Ki84c.. I agree.. They are too uber for the skill level of those types and does not fit in well with the Quake mindset. But uber is NOT the reason for the historic servers.. they leave them out of most if not all of their mapes because the fact is that in real life the chances of seeing one was very SMALL due to the LIMITED numbers.. Thus adding just "1" to a room of "32" planes would be very un-realistic

What do you mean with limited numbers? A squad? One thing is really historic, they were mostly used against 4 engine bombers, and not to hunt fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And Hitler was dumb; he was the small 1st class private with no strategic education. Without the Wehrmacht Officers, the Blitz would never happened during '39-'40. He was the guy who dismissed most of the ablest WH generals, who was responsible for the biggest mistakes which happened in german operations during the war, because he didn't want to listen to the generals with experience. The idea of the "battle of the bulge" was really the blitz, but the desaster was programmed and alot of high ranked german officers knew that there was no chance to win.
So it was just a huge waste of ammo, fuel, troops and tanks for someone who lost the overview and who dreamed of the Blitz in the past..

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by MB80:
What do you mean with limited numbers? A squad? I mean what I have been saying all along, the Me262s numbers were so SMALL that the chance of an ALLIED pilot seeing one was very SMALL all due to the LIMITED numbers of Me262s


Originally posted by MB80:
One thing is really historic, they were mostly used against 4 engine bombers, and not to hunt fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Roger, it was a good buff hunter but not a very good fighter.


Originally posted by MB80:
And Hitler was dumb; Like a fox


Originally posted by MB80:
he was the small 1st class private with no strategic education. Without the Wehrmacht Officers, the Blitz would never happened during '39-'40. He was the guy who dismissed most of the ablest WH generals, who was responsible for the biggest mistakes which happened in german operations during the war, because he didn't want to listen to the generals with experience. The idea of the "battle of the bulge" was really the blitz, but the desaster was programmed and alot of high ranked german officers knew that there was no chance to win.
So it was just a huge waste of ammo, fuel, troops and tanks for someone who lost the overview and who dreamed of the Blitz in the past.. Agreed, after the inital blitz failed Germany stood no chance of winning anything, the best they could have hoped for was a draw.. but the allieds would not have accepted that and Hitler knew it.

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
of course

you can try & rationalise it as realistic because low numbers made them a rare sight & hence the reason from them left out of DF rooms is realisim

but it would be baloney WRT the Quake shoot em up TnB servers that have every plane aval to both sides except the Me163, He162, Me262, P80, Ki84c.. I agree.. They are too uber for the skill level of those types and does not fit in well with the Quake mindset. But uber is NOT the reason for the historic servers.. they leave them out of most if not all of their mapes because the fact is that in real life the chances of seeing one was very SMALL due to the LIMITED numbers.. Thus adding just "1" to a room of "32" planes would be very un-realistic

p1ngu666
06-03-2006, 08:40 AM
iirec, that abit of reasearh i did awhile back showed that the sortie rate for 262's was low.

even on there best day they might be beaten by a spitfire wing, just doing a normal amount of sorties.
maybe before lunch aswell.

besides, it never actully achived much in air to air combat.

and as to how it was a awful, AWFUL waste to use it as a bomber/jabo. please consider your options as a bomber pilot

stuka, hmmm no
he111, hmmm no again
do series, again, living seems more attractive.
ju88, its decent, but hardly a massive leap over the others.

ofcourse, in the 262 jabo, u have no gunners, no one but u, but u do have great speed.

now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions...

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
iirec, that abit of reasearh i did awhile back showed that the sortie rate for 262's was low.

even on there best day they might be beaten by a spitfire wing, just doing a normal amount of sorties.
maybe before lunch aswell.

besides, it never actully achived much in air to air combat.

and as to how it was a awful, AWFUL waste to use it as a bomber/jabo. please consider your options as a bomber pilot

stuka, hmmm no
he111, hmmm no again
do series, again, living seems more attractive.
ju88, its decent, but hardly a massive leap over the others.

ofcourse, in the 262 jabo, u have no gunners, no one but u, but u do have great speed.

now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions... Exactally! And Hitler knew it!

jimDG
06-03-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
iirec, that abit of reasearh i did awhile back showed that the sortie rate for 262's was low.

even on there best day they might be beaten by a spitfire wing, just doing a normal amount of sorties.
maybe before lunch aswell.

besides, it never actully achived much in air to air combat.

and as to how it was a awful, AWFUL waste to use it as a bomber/jabo. please consider your options as a bomber pilot

stuka, hmmm no
he111, hmmm no again
do series, again, living seems more attractive.
ju88, its decent, but hardly a massive leap over the others.

ofcourse, in the 262 jabo, u have no gunners, no one but u, but u do have great speed.

now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions...

if it had acceleration or decent armor (i.e. could bomb at lowlevel and go after tanks) than maybe yes.
As things were me262 were better used to down a few b-17, which would have enabled the german industry and infrastructure to make some panthers and ta-152Cs - to go after some allied tanks.
Or better - some oil (out of coal) for the existing Panthers - the Ardennes offensive failed mostly because of lack of fuel (and the necessity to prioritize the capture of American fuel storage)

All you need to do to disrupt bombing operations is to start incuring more than 10% losses per bombing operation on the allies - above that bombing operations become unsustainable.
Actually - there were enough me-262s to do that, but Galland was not allowed to used them en masse in a "big wing" fashion.
Galland was even not allowed to use prop fighters in that way - they would rather have them go at low level at airfields (forgot the name of the operation - it was at Christmas 1944)

So basicly the mistake was to use the Luftwaffe tacticly, rather than strategicly.
(everyone does that mistake, even the allies initially insisted that p-47s and p51s stick to the B-17s, rather than use the bombers sortie to make the Luftwaffe get out of its holes and get them with the p-51s, where ever they might be)

Out of 1000 Me262 produced only 200 saw combat simply because the rest (or spares for the operational) were stuck somewhere in the disrupted german railroad network.
So, using the 200 in one go, en masse, would have freed 800 more for combat, by allowing them to become operational.
Tactical usage of fighters was, of course, even further draining on the experten pilot numbers, which were quite low at that point anyway.

From a broader point of view though, and with hindsight, what would have won the war for the Germans in 1944-45 would have been the Wasserfall SAM, had it been prioritised ahead of the V1/V2, and operational by 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserfall
What would have ultimatelly won the war for the Germans could only have been a nuke.

Von_Rat
06-03-2006, 11:37 AM
any arguements about low numbers that are used to justify keeping 262s off servers, can also be used to keep d9s, k4s, off servers. but as you know, virtually all servers late war maps allow the k4 and d9, but not the 262.

even the practically none existant ta's and do's are allowed, but again , not the 262.

its not real life low numbers thats keeping the 262 off servers.

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
any arguements about low numbers that are used to justify keeping 262s off servers, can also be used to keep d9s, k4s, off servers. but as you know, virtually all servers late war maps allow the k4 and d9, but not the 262.

even the practically none existant ta's and do's are allowed, but again , not the 262.

its not real life low numbers thats keeping the 262 off servers. Disagree 100%

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
iirec, that abit of reasearh i did awhile back showed that the sortie rate for 262's was low.

even on there best day they might be beaten by a spitfire wing, just doing a normal amount of sorties.
maybe before lunch aswell.

besides, it never actully achived much in air to air combat.

and as to how it was a awful, AWFUL waste to use it as a bomber/jabo. please consider your options as a bomber pilot

stuka, hmmm no
he111, hmmm no again
do series, again, living seems more attractive.
ju88, its decent, but hardly a massive leap over the others.

ofcourse, in the 262 jabo, u have no gunners, no one but u, but u do have great speed.

now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions...

if it had acceleration or decent armor (i.e. could bomb at lowlevel and go after tanks) than maybe yes.
As things were me262 were better used to down a few b-17, which would have enabled the german industry and infrastructure to make some panthers and ta-152Cs - to go after some allied tanks.
Or better - some oil (out of coal) for the existing Panthers - the Ardennes offensive failed mostly because of lack of fuel (and the necessity to prioritize the capture of American fuel storage)

All you need to do to disrupt bombing operations is to start incuring more than 10% losses per bombing operation on the allies - above that bombing operations become unsustainable.
Actually - there were enough me-262s to do that, but Galland was not allowed to used them en masse in a "big wing" fashion.
Galland was even not allowed to use prop fighters in that way - they would rather have them go at low level at airfields (forgot the name of the operation - it was at Christmas 1944)

So basicly the mistake was to use the Luftwaffe tacticly, rather than strategicly.
(everyone does that mistake, even the allies initially insisted that p-47s and p51s stick to the B-17s, rather than use the bombers sortie to make the Luftwaffe get out of its holes and get them with the p-51s, where ever they might be)

Out of 1000 Me262 produced only 200 saw combat simply because the rest (or spares for the operational) were stuck somewhere in the disrupted german railroad network.
So, using the 200 in one go, en masse, would have freed 800 more for combat, by allowing them to become operational.
Tactical usage of fighters was, of course, even further draining on the experten pilot numbers, which were quite low at that point anyway.

From a broader point of view though, and with hindsight, what would have won the war for the Germans in 1944-45 would have been the Wasserfall SAM, had it been prioritised ahead of the V1/V2, and operational by 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserfall
What would have ultimatelly won the war for the Germans could only have been a nuke. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Neat theory.. but even if that was true.. it would have only extend the war a few months.. Which in turn means that Japan would not be the only country that got nuked during WWII

Monty_Thrud
06-03-2006, 01:27 PM
now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions...


umm...the Spitfire?... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

do i get a cookie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

p1ngu666
06-03-2006, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
any arguements about low numbers that are used to justify keeping 262s off servers, can also be used to keep d9s, k4s, off servers. but as you know, virtually all servers late war maps allow the k4 and d9, but not the 262.

even the practically none existant ta's and do's are allowed, but again , not the 262.

its not real life low numbers thats keeping the 262 off servers.

yeah, well a8, g6, and g14 vs the normal western allied lineup doesnt sound so fun, so there u go..

Xiolablu3
06-03-2006, 02:03 PM
No matter how good a fighter the Me262 was, it was never going to save Hitler even if it won the war against the heavy bombers.

TRhe only possible way it could stop the tide of the Red army or the Western Allies was to stop them on the ground.

Therefore Hitler had no real choice but to try and use it as a bomber, rather than a defensive weapon.

However unlikely it was to stop the allies on the ground, Hitler had nothing to lose by using it as a bomber.

Using it as a fighter would only delay slightly. He needed to stop the red army on the ground, maybe the Me262 could do it.

bird_brain
06-03-2006, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by jimDG:
... they would rather have them go at low level at airfields (forgot the name of the operation - it was at Christmas 1944)
Operation Bodenplatte... New Years' Day 1945
Referrred to as "The Hangover Raid" unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, The USAAF was not hung over and they were already in the air over their airbases.

Big disaster as all the fighter reserves and alot of experienced fighter pilots were lost to no effect. Just like the result of the entire Ardennes Offensive.

Von_Rat
06-03-2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
any arguements about low numbers that are used to justify keeping 262s off servers, can also be used to keep d9s, k4s, off servers. but as you know, virtually all servers late war maps allow the k4 and d9, but not the 262.

even the practically none existant ta's and do's are allowed, but again , not the 262.

its not real life low numbers thats keeping the 262 off servers.

yeah, well a8, g6, and g14 vs the normal western allied lineup doesnt sound so fun, so there u go.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so your saying d9s, k4s etc, are allowed despite low numbers, to make game fun.

so much for the historical arguement.

i guess if 262 is allowed it wouldnt be fun anymore. why is that, could it be because its perceived as uber. that is my point.

Badsight.
06-03-2006, 03:32 PM
people dont like to fight against Jets

Jets flowen correctly rack up the kills & are boring to fly against

Jets work best in locked pit rooms where speed is life

the 262 is missing because . . . . well you work it out : )

realistically , & historically , Me-262 were used in WW2 & Fighter pilots & Bomber crews had to deal with them

rnzoli
06-03-2006, 03:45 PM
as a small DF server operator I had once included the ground attack version of Me-262 to a late-war map

I had so many complaints from the allied side that I considered "whining". Most folks flying the 262 obeyed the request to use it in air-to-ground role, the small minority was a poor shot and flew it wrongly, I had the priviledge to escape one's repeated attacks with a MustangIII.

Nevertheless every night someone was saying "wanna fly jets? go play lock on", or "jet drivers play alone", or "why no YP-80 in this room?" kind of stuff

I was happy when I was able to rotate the map out of use after 2 months, because it was such a headache to listen to this whining all the time

Werg78
06-03-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
iirec, that abit of reasearh i did awhile back showed that the sortie rate for 262's was low.

even on there best day they might be beaten by a spitfire wing, just doing a normal amount of sorties.
maybe before lunch aswell.

besides, it never actully achived much in air to air combat.

and as to how it was a awful, AWFUL waste to use it as a bomber/jabo. please consider your options as a bomber pilot

stuka, hmmm no
he111, hmmm no again
do series, again, living seems more attractive.
ju88, its decent, but hardly a massive leap over the others.

ofcourse, in the 262 jabo, u have no gunners, no one but u, but u do have great speed.

now, what aircraft that relied apon speed, and did bombing/attack operations did abit well?
had no guns, made of wood. had lowest loss ratio in bomber command, and doing highly dangerous missions...

if it had acceleration or decent armor (i.e. could bomb at lowlevel and go after tanks) than maybe yes.
As things were me262 were better used to down a few b-17, which would have enabled the german industry and infrastructure to make some panthers and ta-152Cs - to go after some allied tanks.
Or better - some oil (out of coal) for the existing Panthers - the Ardennes offensive failed mostly because of lack of fuel (and the necessity to prioritize the capture of American fuel storage)

All you need to do to disrupt bombing operations is to start incuring more than 10% losses per bombing operation on the allies - above that bombing operations become unsustainable.
Actually - there were enough me-262s to do that, but Galland was not allowed to used them en masse in a "big wing" fashion.
Galland was even not allowed to use prop fighters in that way - they would rather have them go at low level at airfields (forgot the name of the operation - it was at Christmas 1944)

So basicly the mistake was to use the Luftwaffe tacticly, rather than strategicly.
(everyone does that mistake, even the allies initially insisted that p-47s and p51s stick to the B-17s, rather than use the bombers sortie to make the Luftwaffe get out of its holes and get them with the p-51s, where ever they might be)

Out of 1000 Me262 produced only 200 saw combat simply because the rest (or spares for the operational) were stuck somewhere in the disrupted german railroad network.
So, using the 200 in one go, en masse, would have freed 800 more for combat, by allowing them to become operational.
Tactical usage of fighters was, of course, even further draining on the experten pilot numbers, which were quite low at that point anyway.

From a broader point of view though, and with hindsight, what would have won the war for the Germans in 1944-45 would have been the Wasserfall SAM, had it been prioritised ahead of the V1/V2, and operational by 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserfall
What would have ultimatelly won the war for the Germans could only have been a nuke. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Neat theory.. but even if that was true.. it would have only extend the war a few months.. Which in turn means that Japan would not be the only country that got nuked during WWII </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i doubt that the allies would have nuked germany if the war extend for a couple of month. the nazis had a vast reserve of chemical weapons at their disposal and could have used them against the UK in retaliation.

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
No matter how good a fighter the Me262 was, it was never going to save Hitler even if it won the war against the heavy bombers.

TRhe only possible way it could stop the tide of the Red army or the Western Allies was to stop them on the ground.

Therefore Hitler had no real choice but to try and use it as a bomber, rather than a defensive weapon.

However unlikely it was to stop the allies on the ground, Hitler had nothing to lose by using it as a bomber.

Using it as a fighter would only delay slightly. He needed to stop the red army on the ground, maybe the Me262 could do it. Agreed 100%

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Werg78:
i doubt that the allies would have nuked germany if the war extend for a couple of month. the nazis had a vast reserve of chemical weapons at their disposal and could have used them against the UK in retaliation. Disagree 100%

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
realistically , & historically , Me-262 were used in WW2 & Fighter pilots & Bomber crews had to deal with them realistically , & historically, a nerd ends up dating a super model too.. but the exceptions to the rule do NOT disprove the rule, they only highlight it. The Me262 was the exception to the rule.

Badsight.
06-03-2006, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
april 9th 1945 for luftflotte reich. thats the luftflotte charged with the air defence of germany.

"389 serviceable fighters,...

101,,, bf109

89,,, me262


theres also plenty of servers with totally unhistorical latewar planesets, 262s are banned from them as well.

in other words the reason most late war maps on servers have no 262 is because they are perceived uber.
& in the right hands the perception is totally justified

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
april 9th 1945 for luftflotte reich. thats the luftflotte charged with the air defence of germany.

"389 serviceable fighters,...

101,,, bf109

89,,, me262


theres also plenty of servers with totally unhistorical latewar planesets, 262s are banned from them as well.

in other words the reason most late war maps on servers have no 262 is because they are perceived uber.
& in the right hands the perception is totally justified </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So, let me see if I understand your logic..

The allies destroyed more 109s and 190s than 262s such that by wars end (two weeks before wars end) the total number of 109s and 190s that were left was on par with the orginal handful of operational 262s, therefore you *feel* the Me262 was seen as often in the skys over Germany as the 109s and 109s through out 1945?

Please.. that one might work on the kids who think WWII is a Ben Aflac movie, but not a reasonable adult.

Badsight.
06-03-2006, 09:16 PM
reasonable adults dont try to spin bull**** excuses

MB80
06-03-2006, 09:23 PM
How much spitfires 'helped' at the late battle of the bulge (with confirmed kills)? How often did the spitfires covered the american fighter-bombers (P47Ds/P38s) in the late war? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I see more often the 109Z or the ta152 online than the 262, on "historic" servers.

DIRTY-MAC
06-03-2006, 09:54 PM
Man there is alot of bullsh!t in this thread,
flown right the Me 262 will woop every historical opposition there is, and so it was, plain and simple,
anyone of the "REAL GOOD" PF flyers knows this,
its very superiour to all its historical opponents, If you cant dictate a fight against a prop fighter in this game, your just ain´t good enough, plain and simple,
you have to practice more,
im not trying to diss anybody,
but it is really absurd to think that the
Me 262 wasn´t a superior airplane, it was and if it wasn´t it was because its PILOT.
its just an amasing aircraft, if I have an opertunity to fly it online, its so easy to score against the red opposition its ridiculus. its just so superior, and if you cant hit with those guns! your not a good shooter and need to practise,
I stand by this,
and im just a mediocre pilot,
finally
anyone who is complaining about this aircraft and that it doesnt performe any good needs to practise more, plain and simple, you really have nothing to complain about in that aircraft

ImpStarDuece
06-03-2006, 10:00 PM
Spitfires made claims for 45 aircraft between 16th and 29th of December, Tempests claims for 25 and Typhoons for 10.

The USAAF made claims for 282 aircraft, mostly over German cities escorting bomber formations, not over the Battle area.

AKA_TAGERT
06-03-2006, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
reasonable adults dont try to spin bull**** excuses Now dont be so hard on yourself.. you didnt know any better

Badsight.
06-04-2006, 01:33 AM
being that stupid negates the sarcasm

WTE_Ibis
06-04-2006, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
being that stupid negates the sarcasm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

M8 don't argue with a fool, it doesn't help your image. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Cheers.

AKA_TAGERT
06-04-2006, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
being that stupid negates the sarcasm Look, Bad, your an allright kind of guy, I wouldnt goes a far as to call you M8, that would be ghay! But I will say this.. I am sorry for pointing out the error in your logic by pointing out the allieds shot down so many 109s and 190s such that by the end of the war (two weeks prior) the numbers of 109s and 190s left was about equal to the total number of 262s that where hidden out in the forest grounded due to maintance. Again, sory for making you look so silly in front of everyone, next time I will PM you first.

AKA_TAGERT
06-04-2006, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
M8 don't argue with a fool, it doesn't help your image. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Cheers. LOL! what a smacktard!

p1ngu666
06-04-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
any arguements about low numbers that are used to justify keeping 262s off servers, can also be used to keep d9s, k4s, off servers. but as you know, virtually all servers late war maps allow the k4 and d9, but not the 262.

even the practically none existant ta's and do's are allowed, but again , not the 262.

its not real life low numbers thats keeping the 262 off servers.

yeah, well a8, g6, and g14 vs the normal western allied lineup doesnt sound so fun, so there u go.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so your saying d9s, k4s etc, are allowed despite low numbers, to make game fun.

so much for the historical arguement.

i guess if 262 is allowed it wouldnt be fun anymore. why is that, could it be because its perceived as uber. that is my point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, most 44 servers are "late" 44, hence latewar lw rides are there.

if u had early and mid 44 plane sets, then it would be more like what u read in the history books http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

heck, the ta152's first flight was after christmas day, in 44..

Von_Rat
06-04-2006, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
april 9th 1945 for luftflotte reich. thats the luftflotte charged with the air defence of germany.

"389 serviceable fighters,...

101,,, bf109

89,,, me262


theres also plenty of servers with totally unhistorical latewar planesets, 262s are banned from them as well.

in other words the reason most late war maps on servers have no 262 is because they are perceived uber.
& in the right hands the perception is totally justified </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So, let me see if I understand your logic..

The allies destroyed more 109s and 190s than 262s such that by wars end (two weeks before wars end) the total number of 109s and 190s that were left was on par with the orginal handful of operational 262s, therefore you *feel* the Me262 was seen as often in the skys over Germany as the 109s and 109s through out 1945?

Please.. that one might work on the kids who think WWII is a Ben Aflac movie, but not a reasonable adult. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the date of that report is april 9th,a month before war ended, but the numbers are similar for the several preceding weeks. so you'll see similar numbers for the last 2 months of war, not two weeks.

i didnt say i "feel" anything nor did i say throughout 1945 either,, stop putting words in my mouth.

what i said in that post was this,,,,
_________________________________________________
looks like a good percentage of german planes flying at the end of war in defence of the reich were 262s, reltively speaking.
_______________________________________________


you must also remember that of those 109s 190s listed only a handful were d9s k4s, i dont have exact for apiril 9th 45 figures for model type handy, but if you insist ill look them up.

and those 262 numbers are for servicable planes, not planes down for mantiance. if you add those planes down for mantiance, 262 numbers would be nearly double those 89 listed.

whats more important is the part of that post not quoted.

________________________________________________
262 production, and even in service numbers compare well to k4s or d9s, both of which you see on nearly every servers late war maps. but no 262 on those maps. if numbers were the real reason, then k4s and d9s not to mention tas should be just about as scarce on servers as 262.
_____________________________________________

im talking here about total numbers produced and in service, i can quote these numbers if you wish.

but to keep it simple,

there were about 200 to 300 depending on source, 262s that flew during war.

there were about 15 ta152s flew during war.

why are ta's allowed on almost all late war maps on servers, but 262s are not.

could it be that 262s are perceived uber, but ta's are not.

MB80
06-05-2006, 02:22 AM
Why is the Me 163 not allowed on the servers? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stathem
06-05-2006, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by MB80:
How much spitfires 'helped' at the late battle of the bulge (with confirmed kills)? How often did the spitfires covered the american fighter-bombers (P47Ds/P38s) in the late war? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I see more often the 109Z or the ta152 online than the 262, on "historic" servers.

Why would Spitfires be covering P47s and P38s?

The British and Commonwealth forces did have their own troops and section of the front, and the RAF did have their own Fighter-bombers.

Oh yeah, they aren't in the game are they, maybe that's why you forget about them.

Von_Rat
06-05-2006, 02:59 AM
heck, the ta152's first flight was after christmas day, in 44..
__________________________________________________

the 1st combat missions of 262 was several months before that. 262 is much more a 44 plane than ta is.

general_kalle
06-05-2006, 03:55 AM
me262 has one weekness if ur aprohing a target he only need to make a sharp turn or dive and ill miss him becouse u cant turn in that plane

luftluuver
06-05-2006, 04:14 AM
Using your numbers V_R

262 - 22.9%
109/190 - 71%

Me 262 production
month - Augsburg - Regensburg

1944
M - 1-0
A - 15-0
M - 7-0
J - 28-0
J - 58-0
A - 15-1
S - 92-2
O - 108-10
N - 87-14
D - 108-23
1945
J - 163-65
F - 166-130
M - 165-75
A - 64-37

Of this, only just under 1000 were delievered to the LW. The other ~400 were destroyed before delivery.

The largest number of jet fighter sorties was flown April 10 1945 with 55 262s. This was against 1315 bombers and 905 fighters of the 8th AF. This day is known by the Americans as 'The Great Jet massacre'. JG7 and I.KG(J)54 reported 13 lost, 14 mia and 8 damaged. JG7 claimed 18 American a/c.

KG51 had only 20 262s with 15 operational.

ref.
- Classic's 262 Vol 4 pg 701
- http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Apr.45.html (http://paul.rutgers.edu/%7Emcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Apr.45.html)

LW OoB
- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LWOB45.html#Apr45

Von_Rat
06-05-2006, 04:22 AM
luftluuver wrote
Posted Mon June 05 2006 03:14
Using your numbers V_R

262 - 22.9%
109/190 - 71%

Me 262 production
month - Augsburg - Regensburg

1944
M - 1-0
A - 15-0
M - 7-0
J - 28-0
J - 58-0
A - 15-1
S - 92-2
O - 108-10
N - 87-14
D - 108-23
1945
J - 163-65
F - 166-130
M - 165-75
A - 64-37

Of this, only just under 1000 were delievered to the LW. The other ~400 were destroyed before delivery.

The largest number of jet fighter sorties was flown April 10 1945 with 55 262s. This was against 1315 bombers and 905 fighters of the 8th AF. This day is known by the Americans as 'The Great Jet massacre'. JG7 and I.KG(J)54 reported 13 lost, 14 mia and 8 damaged. JG7 claimed 18 American a/c.

KG51 had only 20 262s with 15 operational.

__________________________________________________ _____


of that 71% only smaller percentage number were k4s or d9s.

and how many ta152s were produced or were flying, alot less than 262, correct?

262 is banned, k4 d9 ta152 isnt, thats my point.

im not disputing 262 was only present in small numbers. im pointing out k4 ,d9, ta, were also only in very small numbers, but theyre not banned.

so lack of numbers isnt the reason 262s are banned.

WOLFMondo
06-05-2006, 05:10 AM
A simple benchmark for how many 262's were flying.

Read the Big Show. Closterman had over 400 combat sorties under his belt when his left the RAF almost directly after the war ended, 400 is a massive total for any allied pilot, thats 16 times more missions than your average 25 mission 8th AF pilot.

He flew every day, often more than one sorties in an area what did have a 262 presence (they flew armed recon and little else, they would fly past a 2nd TAF field at high speed, drop a bomb then run home and report numbers etc) and he saw 1 262 in flight.

On the other hand how many D9's and k4 did he see? Thats documented in his book but he was shot down by a Dora and returned the favour but they were common where he was.

Anyway, were talking DF servers here, even the best ones are tailored for a balance and the 262 doesn't allow that so there not there. Who cares? I don't. If I want historical I'll fly with my squad in co-ops.

luftluuver
06-05-2006, 05:15 AM
Just putting up numbers, not really disagreeing with you V_R. Would say it is banned because of FS game (is that the correct word?) instant gratification mentality. Ta 152s should be seen not very often online, be sure. Would have to look it up but, iirc, the largest number of 152s in the air at one time was 6.

K-4 units (servicable)

III./JG 3 - 46
III./JG 4 - 56
IV./JG 4 - ?
I./JG 27 - 13
II./JG 53 - 24
III./JG 53 - 24
IV./JG 53 - 27
II./KG(J)6 - ?
II./KG(J)55 - ?

D-9 units

Stab JG26 - 3
I./JG26 - 16
II./JG26 - 29
IV./JG26 - 15
II./JG301 (mix with 109s) - 15

262 units

Stab/JG7 - 4
I/JG7 - 36
II/JG7 - 23
I(J)/KG54 - 21
Jagdverband 44 - ~15

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
looks like a good percentage of german planes flying at the end of war in defence of the reich were 262s, reltively speaking. As I allready stated, the allied shot down so many 109s and 190s that by wars end the number of 109s and 190s was about equal to the number of 262s. Thus the percent of German aircraft near wars end looks like it was made up of alot of Me262s.

That I agree 100% with!

But that does not change the fact that the "chances" of seeing a Me262 were very low.. All it means is that by wars end the "chances" of seeing *any* German aircraft was very low. And by chances I mean out of the thousands and thousands of Allied aircrat and thier pilots the chances of all of them seeing a Me262 was low. But, as with the LOTTO, one of them would win and see one. Wasnt it Chuck Yeager that said.. "The first Jet I saw I shot it down"? So, yes, a few pilots saw them.. those are what stories are made from.. but the "exceptions" to the rule do NOT disprove the rule.

As for ta152 being in a server.. I agree they too should not be allowed! And most, if not all, of the historical servers I fly on dont allow the Ta152 ethier. Some historical servers have a one map that will rotate in with a Me262 and Ta152 enabled.. That works well, so I really dont know what folks are all upset about! That simulates the way the war went pretty well what with the DF mission limitations we have. The best servers are the ones that do that, but limit how many can be in the air. I forget which server it is, but, they can make a base that limits the number of people that can take off from it. But, you can not please everyone! No mater what you do the Me262 Luftie Quakie shoot-em-up re-spawners will not be happy until they have the Me262 enabled on every map 24:7

mynameisroland
06-05-2006, 08:59 AM
100% disagree

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
100% disagree Big suprise, comming from a Ta152 Me262 24:7 Luftie Quakie shoot-em-up re-spawners type

Brain32
06-05-2006, 09:07 AM
Big suprise, comming from a Me262 Luftie Quakie shoot-em-up re-spawners type
As are everybody who disagree with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
As are everybody who disagree with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dont know about everybody, but, I would have to agree with you 100% with regrads to *most* of the peeps in this thread.

Xiolablu3
06-05-2006, 09:19 AM
The big problem here is purely not being able to use limited numbers of a certain type on DF servers.

If we could limit it to 1 Me262 at a time, which each pilot could use maybe once in a map, then it may be ok.

If you put it on a map right nowthen 90% of LW fighters will be Me262's,which is not historical OR fun.

Maybe you cold put the Me262 at a base very far from the front, to discourage and limit their usage, that way the map wouldnt be swamped.

As always its up to the map makers to make it work. And it CAN be done well, the map just needs plamnning and balancing well.

LIke the Spitfire 25lbs, its banned becasue it doesnt create a good map. A good map is one which creates a great fight/battle. If one side holds all the cards, then its not fun anymore.

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The big problem here is purely not being able to use limited numbers of a certain type on DF servers.

If we could limit it to 1 Me262 at a time, which each pilot could use maybe once in a map, then it may be ok. Actully some servers know how to do it. Not sure how they do it, but they can limit the number to what ever they want.


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you put it on a map right nowthen 90% of LW fighters will be Me262's,which is not historical OR fun. Well, in a way some of those can be fun.. in that 99% of the jet jocks that talk jet smack dont have a clue about how to fly them, thus making them ez targets for tagert


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Maybe you cold put the Me262 at a base very far from the front, to discourage and limit their usage, that way the map wouldnt be swamped.

As always its up to the map makers to make it work. And it CAN be done well, the map just needs plamnning and balancing well.

LIke the Spitfire 25lbs, its banned becasue it doesnt create a good map. A good map is one which creates a great fight/battle. If one side holds all the cards, then its not fun anymore. Agreed 100%

whiteladder
06-05-2006, 10:14 AM
Actully some servers know how to do it. Not sure how they do it, but they can limit the number to what ever they want.

Spits v 109 do this on their Berlin map, each side is limited to 3 jets each and any number of props, works very well.

Anybody that wants to do this could head over to www.warbirdsofprey.org (http://www.warbirdsofprey.org) and ask chicagochad how he does it.

Von_Rat
06-05-2006, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The big problem here is purely not being able to use limited numbers of a certain type on DF servers.

If we could limit it to 1 Me262 at a time, which each pilot could use maybe once in a map, then it may be ok.

If you put it on a map right nowthen 90% of LW fighters will be Me262's,which is not historical OR fun.

Maybe you cold put the Me262 at a base very far from the front, to discourage and limit their usage, that way the map wouldnt be swamped.

As always its up to the map makers to make it work. And it CAN be done well, the map just needs plamnning and balancing well.

LIke the Spitfire 25lbs, its banned becasue it doesnt create a good map. A good map is one which creates a great fight/battle. If one side holds all the cards, then its not fun anymore.


agreed,,, this is the reason its banned and the others are not.

if 262s numbers could be "easily" limited, then other plane types that only saw limited use like ta k4 etc, could be limited also.

as stated it is possiable but not easy, so most dont bother.

Von_Rat
06-05-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
looks like a good percentage of german planes flying at the end of war in defence of the reich were 262s, reltively speaking. As I allready stated, the allied shot down so many 109s and 190s that by wars end the number of 109s and 190s was about equal to the number of 262s. Thus the percent of German aircraft near wars end looks like it was made up of alot of Me262s.

That I agree 100% with!

But that does not change the fact that the "chances" of seeing a Me262 were very low.. All it means is that by wars end the "chances" of seeing *any* German aircraft was very low. And by chances I mean out of the thousands and thousands of Allied aircrat and thier pilots the chances of all of them seeing a Me262 was low. But, as with the LOTTO, one of them would win and see one. Wasnt it Chuck Yeager that said.. "The first Jet I saw I shot it down"? So, yes, a few pilots saw them.. those are what stories are made from.. but the "exceptions" to the rule do NOT disprove the rule.

As for ta152 being in a server.. I agree they too should not be allowed! And most, if not all, of the historical servers I fly on dont allow the Ta152 ethier. Some historical servers have a one map that will rotate in with a Me262 and Ta152 enabled.. That works well, so I really dont know what folks are all upset about! That simulates the way the war went pretty well what with the DF mission limitations we have. The best servers are the ones that do that, but limit how many can be in the air. I forget which server it is, but, they can make a base that limits the number of people that can take off from it. But, you can not please everyone! No mater what you do the Me262 Luftie Quakie shoot-em-up re-spawners will not be happy until they have the Me262 enabled on every map 24:7 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as i stated im not disputing 262 was rare, im saying others such as k4, d9, not just ta, were just as rare. and theyre not banned.
im not even saying 262 shouldnt be banned, though it would be nice to see it in limited numbers, as you stated was possiable.

what im saying is that lack of numbers isnt the reason its banned, because then the k4 ,d9 etc. would be banned also.



btw i agree alot of jet jocks dont know how to fly it properly, making it a easy kill.
i however, do know how to fly it properly as a fighter, and have the me262a1 stats to prove it. do i get a cookie,,lol.
my jet bomber stats do suc however.

its a nice change to have a civilised disagreement with you tagert.

Brain32
06-05-2006, 11:29 AM
FW190D a.k.a. Dora rare?!?!? I have a production table in a book that shows 1805 built, so let's not get too hasty http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
06-05-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
FW190D a.k.a. Dora rare?!?!? I have a production table in a book that shows 1805 built, so let's not get too hasty http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and nearly 1500 262s were built, im speaking numbers that flew were both about the same. as with 262 alot of d9s built never flew, for lack of gas, destroyed on ground etc. luftluuvers figures reflect this.

GR142-Pipper
06-05-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
looks like a good percentage of german planes flying at the end of war in defence of the reich were 262s, reltively speaking. As I allready stated, the allied shot down so many 109s and 190s that by wars end the number of 109s and 190s was about equal to the number of 262s. Thus the percent of German aircraft near wars end looks like it was made up of alot of Me262s.

That I agree 100% with!

But that does not change the fact that the "chances" of seeing a Me262 were very low.. All it means is that by wars end the "chances" of seeing *any* German aircraft was very low. And by chances I mean out of the thousands and thousands of Allied aircrat and thier pilots the chances of all of them seeing a Me262 was low. But, as with the LOTTO, one of them would win and see one. Wasnt it Chuck Yeager that said.. "The first Jet I saw I shot it down"? So, yes, a few pilots saw them.. those are what stories are made from.. but the "exceptions" to the rule do NOT disprove the rule.

As for ta152 being in a server.. I agree they too should not be allowed! And most, if not all, of the historical servers I fly on dont allow the Ta152 ethier. Some historical servers have a one map that will rotate in with a Me262 and Ta152 enabled.. That works well, so I really dont know what folks are all upset about! That simulates the way the war went pretty well what with the DF mission limitations we have. The best servers are the ones that do that, but limit how many can be in the air. I forget which server it is, but, they can make a base that limits the number of people that can take off from it. But, you can not please everyone! No mater what you do the Me262 Luftie Quakie shoot-em-up re-spawners will not be happy until they have the Me262 enabled on every map 24:7 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Keep this in mind too, Tag...in this game, the weakest players are reduced to flying the 262 when all others are in props. The 262 goes far faster than any other plane and has far more firepower. It's a no risk/no skill ride. As an aside, watch servers empty (sometimes faster, sometimes slower) when the 262s are introduced. It never fails. These reasons are why there aren't many 262s on the servers...and everyone knows it.

GR142-Pipper

Viper2005_
06-05-2006, 09:00 PM
Dogfight servers are not about realism.

Realism isn't fun.

Certainly the 262 was used in numbers, and made up a significant proportion of the LW at the end of the war. But even if it had made up 90% of LW fighter sorties flown in 1945 it wouldn't have made a lot of difference because the Luftwaffe wasn't putting up a lot of sorties.

Translate that into a dogfight server running constantly and the result would be something like 25 reds operating without restriction all the time vs about 10 blues, only 6 of whom can be in the air at any given time, and then only twice a day.

The blue team would get bored of dying in the face of impossible odds, and the red team (apart from the serious ground-pounders) would get bored of never seeing any blue fighters - imagine if the blue team flew off its sorties in the morning and you joined the server in the afternoon!

Result = Empty Server.

Instead, dogfight servers are about a comic-book version of WWII in which both sides have a roughly equal chance of winning the battle, without either side being at risk of winning the war (and thereby ending the fun). Since pilot quality is very variable, the easiest way to ensure this is to arrange for roughly even teams flying roughly even planesets.

As such, the blue team loses its jets, and the red team loses its crushing numerical superiority, and (hopefully) both sides have fun.

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Keep this in mind too, Tag... in this game, the weakest players are reduced to flying the 262 when all others are in props. Not true, thus not worth keeping in mind, Pip...


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The 262 goes far faster than any other plane No kidding? So, let me get this straight.. Your saying the Me262 is faster than most if not all of the prop planes? But seriosly, it also has it's weaknesses, acc is not so hot and she dont turn so good. A propr with a decent alt advantage can, just like in RL, swoop down and terr up a 262


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
and has far more firepower. Which is good for bombers and a lucky snap shot at a fighter.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
It's a no risk/no skill ride. Not true.. it has it's down sides. As for the guys who say fly it right and no worries.. Well that is true of ANY PLANE! The FACT is most people dont fly anything right 100% of the time. Thus any plane can be shot down.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
As an aside, watch servers empty (sometimes faster, sometimes slower) when the 262s are introduced. It never fails. True, the Quakie Shoot-em-up types that know nothing but TnB will run at first sight of a Me262 because it requires them to pull thier heards out of the 20+ fur ball at 500ft while trying to saddle someone up that is busy trying to saddle someone else up to actully applly some SA.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
These reasons are why there aren't many 262s on the servers...and everyone knows it. DF Quakie Shoot-em-up TnB 20+ 500ft DF servers.. but not so much in the HISTORICAL servers that rotate them in once every 20 maps or so. There people actully look forward to them from both sides.. The Me262 guys trying to fly rigth and the Prop guys applying real world tatics trying to engage or avoid them.

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Dogfight servers are not about realism.

Realism isn't fun. Not true.

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
Spits v 109 do this on their Berlin map, each side is limited to 3 jets each and any number of props, works very well. Agreed 100%! And thanks!

AKA_TAGERT
06-05-2006, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
as i stated im not disputing 262 was rare, im saying others such as k4, d9, not just ta, were just as rare. and theyre not banned. If all you look at is the number of K4s and D9s left at wars end.. but Im sure that if you look at the total number of K4s and D9s produced you will see that they outnumbered the Me262 production. That and they were not gounded due to new jet engine problems.. They were at the peak with well designed and well understood piston engines. Thus, prior to shooting all the K4s and D9s down the chances of an ALLIED pilot seeing a K4 or D9 was much higher than a Me262. Espically when you take into account that out of the 1000 or so build, only about 200 saw service. Where as most of the K4s and D9s saw service, prob was during that service they got shot down. That is why most servers limit the use of Me262s, in that they were limited. That and it is an easier sell.. Imagine how much whining we would see in the HL lobby if the servers didnt allow the K4 or D9! I think the K4, D9, P47 boosted should all be LIMITED to how many can be flown. It would really make for a more realitic feel to see a couple of G-10s than all of a sudden your mixing it up with a K4.

In summary.. the chances of seeing a K4 and D9 were much higher before they were all shot down, where as the Me262, even on it's best day could only muster about 50 of them into the air.. vs. the thousands of allied aircraft in the air from one end of Germany (west) to the other (east)


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
im not even saying 262 shouldnt be banned, though it would be nice to see it in limited numbers, as you stated was possiable. As whiteladder pointed out, Spits vs. 109s does this and when that map rotates in it is one of the funner maps IMHO. I love spanking Do335s or Me262s in my 38L LATE.


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
what im saying is that lack of numbers isnt the reason its banned, because then the k4 ,d9 etc. would be banned also. Disagree, see above


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
btw i agree alot of jet jocks dont know how to fly it properly, making it a easy kill. Most IMHO


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
i however, do know how to fly it properly as a fighter, and have the me262a1 stats to prove it. do i get a cookie,,lol. my jet bomber stats do suc however. No soup for you! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by Von_Rat:
its a nice change to have a civilised disagreement with you tagert. Agreed, much beter! S!

HellToupee
06-06-2006, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Dogfight servers are not about realism.

Realism isn't fun. Not true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

flying me262 vs 1000 odd bombers and a few hundred odd escorts theres ur realism

GR142-Pipper
06-06-2006, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
It's a no risk/no skill ride.
By Taggart:
Not true.. it has it's down sides. As for the guys who say fly it right and no worries.. Well that is true of ANY PLANE! The FACT is most people dont fly anything right 100% of the time. Thus any plane can be shot down.
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
As an aside, watch servers empty (sometimes faster, sometimes slower) when the 262s are introduced. It never fails.
Taggart says: True, the Quakie Shoot-em-up types that know nothing but TnB will run at first sight of a Me262 because it requires them to pull thier heards out of the 20+ fur ball at 500ft while trying to saddle someone up that is busy trying to saddle someone else up to actully applly some SA. I'm not talking about "quakie" servers at all. You seem to be dismissing all servers that encourage engagements as "quakie" servers. Some are, sure. But to dismiss all of them in that manner just isn't accurate. The Russian "Alexserver", "Gennadich" and "Streamarena" servers are good examples of that not being true. In addition, the Chinese DOF server is now nearly full real and they're trying to build up that server's clientele and reputation...and it's working. There are certainly others as well that fall into this category. On the flip side, the GreaterGreen server used to be "the" best server around. That is until it went "historical" and the server dried up and blew away because it was boring-to-the-bone. Does that mean that all historical servers are boring? No. The point that I'm trying to make is that a little care must be given when making sweeping remarks as it cuts both ways.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
These reasons are why there aren't many 262s on the servers...and everyone knows it.
Taggart says: DF Quakie Shoot-em-up TnB 20+ 500ft DF servers.. but not so much in the HISTORICAL servers that rotate them in once every 20 maps or so. There people actully look forward to them from both sides.. The Me262 guys trying to fly rigth and the Prop guys applying real world tatics trying to engage or avoid them. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My experience has been that a 262 driver really has to be very, very inexperienced/careless to mishandle a 262 badly enough to be in any way at risk. Can a 262 be taken down by props? Sure but it's not common with even an average 262 driver. The window of opportunity for the opposition opens and closes so narrowly as to be almost meaningless.

Anyway, on this issue you feel one way; I feel another. That's what makes the world go around.

GR142-Pipper

Xiolablu3
06-06-2006, 10:27 AM
I missed Greatergreen as Im a bit of a noob.

Could you explain what happened with the settings a bit more Pipper?

What were the settings before and what did they change to, to make it die?

GR142-Pipper
06-06-2006, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I missed Greatergreen as Im a bit of a noob.

Could you explain what happened with the settings a bit more Pipper?

What were the settings before and what did they change to, to make it die? (I recognize that this is off thread subject but allow me this response.) Well, it went from anyone could fly anything on either side (externals on) to the same but with externals off/cockpit only. The server was usually at full capacity. It then went to Allied vs. Axis and it was still fairly full because the transit times to the engagement areas still remained reasonably close. In its final phase (total decline), it went to "historical" planesets (by year) with long transit times to/from the engagement areas...and the server died. Why? It simply wasn't fun any more and was largely quite boring. That in a nutshell is what unfortunately happened.

GR142-Pipper

AKA_TAGERT
06-06-2006, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
I'm not talking about "quakie" servers at all. You seem to be dismissing all servers that encourage engagements as "quakie" servers. Some are, sure.
STOP right there!

In that you€re wrong!

You are under the false impression that I am saying.. or dismising *ALL!*!

I am not!

I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME (read quote me) WHERE I SAID ALL OTHER SERVERS!

You won€t! WHY? Because I never said all!

*ALL* may be the impression you get from reading my post after processing it in your brain with your brain's pre-conceived notions and your biases applied to what you read, but that is your problem! Not mine! And your problem does not give you the right to miss-quote me and say that I said ALL.

All I am saying (pun intended) is what you yourself admit to.. SOME ARE, SURE! The real question to ask yourself is if SOME is MOST? IMHO SOME is MOST! But I never said ALL!

On the topic of ALL, as a mater of record I am one of the few people here that points out the there are no ABSOLUTES! And that the EXCEPTIONS to the RULE do NOT disprove the RULE!

So don€t try to paint me as one that says ALL!


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
But to dismiss all of them in that manner just isn't accurate.
Agreed, which is why I did not dismiss ALL (see above)


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The Russian "Alexserver", "Gennadich" and "Streamarena" servers are good examples of that not being true. In addition, the Chinese DOF server is now nearly full real and they're trying to build up that server's clientele and reputation...and it's working. There are certainly others as well that fall into this category.
Which might have some impact on the topic at hand had I said ALL, but in light of the fact that I did not and it is just you reading into things makes these points worthless.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
On the flip side, the GreaterGreen server used to be "the" best server around. That is until it went "historical" and the server dried up and blew away because it was boring-to-the-bone.
Which does NOT prove that REALISM was the problem! There are boring Quakie servers and there are boring realism servers. Thus a very lame argument, in that as we speak there are popular.. very popular realism servers.. So why have they not disappeared? Usimg your logic they should be gone.. because they apply realism.. but they are not all gone!

So, if I were you I would re-think your argument. If you conclude that boring is what caused the demise of GG than I would agree with you, but to conclude the demise was due to realisms would be in error in that there are popular realism server before, during, and after the appearance of GG.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Does that mean that all historical servers are boring? No.
Exactly! Thus realism is not the factor here! Boring may well be the case, maybe even ping, but not realism.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The point that I'm trying to make is that a little care must be given when making sweeping remarks as it cuts both ways. No need to in that no sweeping remarks were made.. Just sweeping pre-conceived notions, biases and perceptions of what was actually written. Solve that problem first and I think you will find that the bulk of your problems will go away.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My experience has been that a 262 driver really has to be very, very inexperienced/careless to mishandle a 262 badly enough to be in any way at risk. Can a 262 be taken down by props? Sure but it's not common with even an average 262 driver. Agreed than, we disagree.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The window of opportunity for the opposition opens and closes so narrowly as to be almost meaningless. Disagree 100%! Not if a prop is flown right.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Anyway, on this issue you feel one way; I feel another. That's what makes the world go around. Agreed 100%

GR142-Pipper
06-06-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
I'm not talking about "quakie" servers at all. You seem to be dismissing all servers that encourage engagements as "quakie" servers. Some are, sure.

STOP right there!

In that you€re wrong!

You are under the false impression that I am saying.. or dismising *ALL!*!

I am not!

I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME (read quote me) WHERE I SAID ALL OTHER SERVERS!

You won€t! WHY? Because I never said all!

*ALL* may be the impression you get from reading my post after processing it in your brain with your brain's pre-conceived notions and your biases applied to what you read, but that is your problem! Not mine! And your problem does not give you the right to miss-quote me and say that I said ALL.

All I am saying (pun intended) is what you yourself admit to.. SOME ARE, SURE! The real question to ask yourself is if SOME is MOST? IMHO SOME is MOST! But I never said ALL!

On the topic of ALL, as a mater of record I am one of the few people here that points out the there are no ABSOLUTES! And that the EXCEPTIONS to the RULE do NOT disprove the RULE!

So don€t try to paint me as one that says ALL! Tag, throttle back a little. My lead off sentence said "seem to be dismissing...". If I misunderstood your view, I stand corrected. By using the word "seem" I tried to leave room for that to be the case.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
But to dismiss all of them in that manner just isn't accurate.

Agreed, which is why I did not dismiss ALL (see above) Ok.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The Russian "Alexserver", "Gennadich" and "Streamarena" servers are good examples of that not being true. In addition, the Chinese DOF server is now nearly full real and they're trying to build up that server's clientele and reputation...and it's working. There are certainly others as well that fall into this category.

Which might have some impact on the topic at hand had I said ALL, but in light of the fact that I did not and it is just you reading into things makes these points worthless. Again, fair enough.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
On the flip side, the GreaterGreen server used to be "the" best server around. That is until it went "historical" and the server dried up and blew away because it was boring-to-the-bone.

Which does NOT prove that REALISM was the problem! There are boring Quakie servers and there are boring realism servers. Thus a very lame argument, in that as we speak there are popular.. very popular realism servers.. So why have they not disappeared? Usimg your logic they should be gone.. because they apply realism.. but they are not all gone!

So, if I were you I would re-think your argument. If you conclude that boring is what caused the demise of GG than I would agree with you, but to conclude the demise was due to realisms would be in error in that there are popular realism server before, during, and after the appearance of GG. I never said that realism was the problem. Being boring is what caused the demise of GreaterGreen.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Does that mean that all historical servers are boring? No.

Exactly! Thus realism is not the factor here! Boring may well be the case, maybe even ping, but not realism. Let me clarify. The MANNER in which "realism" was attempted to be handled definitely WAS a large factor in this PARTICULAR server's undoing. The implementations were terminally boring to too many people which is exactly what killed the server...we agree.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The point that I'm trying to make is that a little care must be given when making sweeping remarks as it cuts both ways.
No need to in that no sweeping remarks were made.. Just sweeping pre-conceived notions, biases and perceptions of what was actually written. Solve that problem first and I think you will find that the bulk of your problems will go away. Problems? This is just a discussion about a game we both enjoy. Interestingly, it happens to be a discussion about points that, with exception, we happen to largely agree on.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My experience has been that a 262 driver really has to be very, very inexperienced/careless to mishandle a 262 badly enough to be in any way at risk. Can a 262 be taken down by props? Sure but it's not common with even an average 262 driver.
Agreed than, we disagree. ...and so it goes.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
The window of opportunity for the opposition opens and closes so narrowly as to be almost meaningless.
Disagree 100%! Not if a prop is flown right.


Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
Anyway, on this issue you feel one way; I feel another. That's what makes the world go around. Agreed 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>If you don't mind me saying this, perhaps if you read an individual's entire post rather than disecting it too quickly, you might get a better feel about what is trying to be said and the intent of the poster. No knock...just a friendly comment with absolutely no venom intended. It's an observation that is certainly not unique to you but unfortunately occurs quite often here and requires the participants to untangle themselves unnecessarily before the discussion can go forward. I've no doubt been guilty of this myself and try to avoid it if possible.

GR142-Pipper

Xiolablu3
06-07-2006, 05:24 AM
Thanks for explaing that for me Pipper.

I think any settings can be fun but the effort has to be placed into the map making.

If you look at UKdedicated mapmaking forums you can see the care and planning which goes into their maps with tweaking continuing for months after until it 'feels' right.

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/forumdisplay.php?f=66