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general_kalle
05-02-2010, 06:36 AM
Flying Straight and level at high cruise speed you spot an enemy plane heading directly towards you at high speed, He's at your 2'o clock high coming down fast.

to get a general answer we will assume that your planes are of roughly equal performance and firepower. and there are no other planes nearby.

Personally I tend to go head on if i have enough energy. otherwise I put him on my 9/3 Position and make split-S or Hard turn just before the foe is within range.

I know that normally plane performance will play a big role in this decision but if we look beyond that.

TinyTim
05-02-2010, 06:48 AM
The answer strongly depends on the initial altitude (whether do I have enough space to attempt a diveaway), on the VNE of both airplanes (whether his airplane disintegrates before mine does).

However, assuming both planes are identical, I'd probably try to avoid headon and attempt to try my chances dogfighting him. It would be long odds, since I'm srewed already due to inferior E state. If he'd make a mistake and present me with an escape window, I wouldn't hesitate to grab it with both my hands.

JtD
05-02-2010, 07:20 AM
I wouldn't accept the head on, I'd try to maneuver in a way that would force him to kill his advantage for a firing solution. That probably involves some turning in the end, so that he doesn't make the firing solution count.

Like TinyTim, I'd try to escape in the first place. Considering the situation, that's a win for me.

Manu-6S
05-02-2010, 08:10 AM
Other:

I go in a shallow dive and a I change my vector of 20-30 (the starting vector is the full HeadOn's one).

In my experience this is a good merging tactic: the enemy will need a really good deflection shot to hit me if he searches the headon (double deflection, since he need to calculate both vertical axis and horizontal axis).

After the merge I've finally identificated the enemy plane so I can decide the right tactic to use.

If the guy has my same performance (a very weird thing anyway) I go for a loop to keep my energy and start the fight.



1) Turn to attack him Head on
50% you live / 50% you die.

2) hard turn = lose energy.. the guy will climb over you.

3) Dive away
I dive away only if I've less energy... if the guy chase me I go for friends or a simple cloud (in a 1v1 mission). Call me coward but I care to not be killed more than to score a kill.

Erkki_M
05-02-2010, 08:13 AM
Other. I beat the crap out of him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pretty much what Manu said, lure him to try the shot, then make him swing himself in front of you - if he plays with a cool head, you might be able to hit him, if not, he panics and dies for sure.

If he doesnt take his chances, I fly away...

ROXunreal
05-02-2010, 09:45 AM
Head on only if I'm in a 190 or P47 and with equal or less E

Airmail109
05-02-2010, 10:01 AM
Vertical dive heading in the opposite vector that he is, so that he either has to bleed all his energy by yanking and banking to follow you or risk losing you by going into the vertical to drop down on you. If you suspect he's going into the vertical, change your vector repeatedly. The aim being is to not be in the part of the sky where he expects you to be.

TinyTim
05-02-2010, 10:17 AM
LoL judging by some of these answers one could conclude that being at a lower E state with a fighter plane diving towards you is actually being in an advantageous position! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Seriously now, if you find yourself in described kind of situation with identical planes - firstly find comfort in knowing that if he is as skilled pilot as you are, you will go down and there is nothing you can do about it.

However, assuming you found your comfort and are acting rationally and not panicking: depending on the relative skill of both pilots, situation (any frinedlies, aaa, clouds around?) and luck you can try to postpone the inevitable, or (with lots of luck) maybe even get your @ss out of the trouble.

JtD
05-02-2010, 10:26 AM
I think you need to be the _better_ pilot to shoot someone down in an even situation. Being just as good is not enough. In that case, either both die or both survive.

So I don't think I'm done just because an as good pilot starts with from a superior position.

ElAurens
05-02-2010, 10:38 AM
I always accept the head on.

And I never break off, ever.

If the enemy does not break off or one of us dies due to gunfire, then it's mutually assured destruction.

It's interesting how many "online aces" of the blue persuasion get miffed at this and start immediately with name calling in chat, because I did not break off and let uber ace run up his kill count more. They have every chance to break off and avoid collision too.

Pretty funny stuff really, the human ego.

general_kalle
05-02-2010, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
LoL judging by some of these answers one could conclude that being at a lower E state with a fighter plane diving towards you is actually being in an advantageous position! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Agreed. People you dont just do this and this and voila you have won.
the intention of the poll was aktually to see if there's anyone that goes for head on attacks, apparantly the people I have done this with online is not a part of this poll.

I myself go for head on's if i judge we are at even chances and try to win by Superior tactics and gunnery.
might be a mistake to reveal my tactics here but whatever.

Usually i just concentrate and focus 100% on getting the perfect aim, i then open fire a little outside range and keeps it pressed while we cross into range and then throw the stick all the way forward and try to dive under his bullets (and him)
when it works my rounds will hit him before his reaches mine and his rounds will pass over me. Most people underestimate the effective firing range on head on attacks. it is a lot farther than usually due to the double closure rate of the planes heading towards each other. by the time your bullets have reached max effective range the enemy has also flown into your max effektive range.

JtD
05-02-2010, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
I always accept the head on.

And I never break off, ever.

If the enemy does not break off or one of us dies due to gunfire, then it's mutually assured destruction.

Too bad there isn't a deathkick.

Erkki_M
05-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
I always accept the head on.

And I never break off, ever.

If the enemy does not break off or one of us dies due to gunfire, then it's mutually assured destruction.

It's interesting how many "online aces" of the blue persuasion get miffed at this and start immediately with name calling in chat, because I did not break off and let uber ace run up his kill count more. They have every chance to break off and avoid collision too.

Pretty funny stuff really, the human ego.

Thats exactly why this "ace" doesnt do head-ons. Against someone who tries to shoot head-on, unless you are both at low speeds, its not hard to both make him miss you and lure him in front of your guns, even if he knew it might happen. Absolutely no reason to give 50-50% chance, unless if you are badly damaged and over enemy area or if planes are something like you in 109G6 vs. a Spitfire IX/La-7 etc. and even then its debatable whether it makes any sense or not.

Manu-6S
05-02-2010, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Absolutely no reason to give 50-50% chance, unless if you are badly damaged and over enemy area or if planes are something like you in 109G6 vs. a Spitfire IX/La-7 etc. and even then its debatable whether it makes any sense or not.

Yes.

Usually my only headons are forced by inferior energy state in a inferior plane (because of performace or damage): for example when you fly in a Hurri against a 109, that's the usual dog I do with my cadets to teach the lesson about dogfight. The 109 builds advantage and the hurri soon becomes a sitting duck... then keep enough speed to turn against the booming 109 and fire at it.. if he's smart he will disangage (that's one of the objectives of the training: "never risk, stay alive"). The lesson goes on until he learns so he can pass the next one. If they are stubborn then I react like ElAurens and I voluntarily search the ram in headon...

After 2-3 times they get bored and understand the concept.

Infact ElAurens, how much do your average missions last?

triad773
05-02-2010, 12:15 PM
I typically turn TOWARD the attacker. Lower profile. Suicide is optional http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I give it a good amount of rudder too- it seems to p1ss them off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Survive the head-on, then if you have the energy, swing her around and give them the works http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Good luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Blindman-
05-02-2010, 01:04 PM
Since the AI prefer the head-on attack we should all be used to it (except perhaps those that only fly on DF servers).

Personally I wait until the enemy is just entering firing range and then I dump my nose with a little twist to foil their shot. Right after the merge I almost always go into the vertical.

Do note that this works very well with AI but might present problems for human foes (so far it has worked reasonably well).

Bremspropeller
05-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Any situation possibly leading to a kill should be taken advantage of.

Why head-on him after a turn?
Go straight for the sukker at the initial merge!

Manu-6S
05-02-2010, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Any situation possibly leading to a kill should be taken advantage of.
In the same way any situation possibly leading to your death should be avoided. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ROXunreal
05-02-2010, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
1) Turn to attack him Head on
50% you live / 50% you die.


oh, I forgot that I disagree with this. Most head ons in my case end up with no one hitting no one or one or both planes sustaining some non-fatal damage, usually not me.

I think my own head on pass death rate is below 20%.

Head ons are a tactic just like any other, sometimes justified, sometimes not. It's WELL worth getting myself into someone else's sights and maybe ending the fight right there in my favor if I'm at lower E and they're in a softer and lesser armed plane.

ElAurens
05-02-2010, 02:28 PM
What I'm saying is that most folks online do not break off. It's comical. It's the same scenario every time for all these years.

It's a simple game of chicken, and most won't break off. Then when the inevitable happens, they are acting like a spoiled baby on chat, when they were the one that initiated the head on. I never start one, but I sure have finished lots of them.

I never understand the guys that start something like this, then whine and whine when I do exactly what they do. Total B.S. The plane that breaks off in a head on is the plane that dies. The initiator knows this. So fine, I'll play the game too.

As they say it takes two to tango.

Bremspropeller
05-02-2010, 03:13 PM
In the same way any situation possibly leading to your death should be avoided.

Better stay in bed then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
05-02-2010, 06:15 PM
Its interesting too, because sometimes the head on can be the only out, and the person that breaks off first might actually be more vulnerable. It just depends on the speed and angle of the head on. That is to say, if both planes are reasonably slower then its probably better to try and get a shot in than trying to bank out of the way only to get flanked by his shot.

If i'm intent on a head on then i usually use a shallow dive not only to gain more speed, but to also place my shot above the horizon line. If he's lower than me then it makes it harder to pick him out from further away.

Its still a risky move because the guy still might fly into me so i also make it a point to not over commit to the head on.
Normally, i'll lock my site on him and shoot a half second burst from about 700-500 meters depending on the closing rate, and then make a sudden change in direction, via a barrel roll or elevator deflection. If done right he'll fly into my burst, and i'll be well out of the way of his shot and his flight path. The important thing is to not sucker yourself into trying to hold a steady bead on him while he's flying at you. That seems to lead to the problems usually associated with head ons.
If you can't commit to a shot, you still might need to go head on with the intent of using a defensive maneuver instead of trying to steady your sight while he's able to blaze away.


Bill

general_kalle
05-02-2010, 06:17 PM
same thing i do Bill, also an interesting turn the poll as taken with quite a few votes on Head on now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
05-02-2010, 07:36 PM
Seems to me it depends partially what you are facing. For example head against a 190a8 with mk103 wing cannons is not generally going to work out well for you.

leitmotiv
05-02-2010, 08:33 PM
True, going head-to-head is often suicide, but I'd rather shoot it out than evade. If the attacker is a ki-43 and I am in a P-40, or the attacker is a Yak and I am in a 190A-6, for example---BRING IT ON.

Frank_Oconnor
05-02-2010, 09:34 PM
Head on with lots of rudder ... you lose some energy, but it drives your opponent nuts correcting and makes their initial shot a lot more of a crapshoot.

JtD
05-02-2010, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the same way any situation possibly leading to your death should be avoided.

Better stay in bed then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people die in bed!!!

Manu-6S
05-03-2010, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the same way any situation possibly leading to your death should be avoided.

Better stay in bed then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, you can say it to the brave guys who fled in those times.

I realize that some here fly IL2 to "simulate" a WW2 pilot (what about defending Italy in '43 flying peashooter planes?, flying a G6 against La5FN?): your first objective is to complete the mission returing home to fly another day.

Other instead want only to score kills (probably not caring about K/D ratio): I can assume jumping in the best plane of the planeset.

No problem here: some like Arma2, some like RO, some like the CoD/Battlefield series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gadje
05-03-2010, 04:46 AM
The only reasons I can see to do a headon here would be that you have much better guns or your not confident in your ability to win when at a disadvantage.

The attacker is frankly making a mistake attacking like this when he possesses an altitude and speed advantage. Defending fast headons is not difficult and he is not leaving himself many options after he goes screaming past downhill.
That would suggest to me he is too aggressive a pilot, not that experienced and will probally blow more E coming after me once we merge. Pilots like this seldom seem to be able to recognise when they need to switch off the 'KILL'KILL'KILL' attitude and be defensive themselves until it is too late. So I would fight him.

Had he kept his height and waited to see what I do after the merge (hoping that I will blow E turning up after him). Then in fact I would shallow dive away opposite direction to him as he knows what he is doing.

Headons are a lottery, energy fighting is for poker players. And sometimes if you want to keep playing you have to fold your hand.

irR4tiOn4L
05-03-2010, 07:06 AM
If hes very close i will accept the head on, but i wont stay in it. I will fire earlier than he anticipates and leave earlier than he expects in order to merely disrupt his aim and break his concentration. Hopefully ill survive that pass and can build an advantage

rnzoli
05-03-2010, 07:13 AM
I answered "Other". I approach with a 10-15 degrees angle offset, level. From long range, this looks almost a head-on, but by the time we are in gun range, I pull back slightly. This creates an aiming problem difficult to solve. Lots of people just realize that I am not doing a head-on when they notice that my plane is drifting aside in their sight, too late to pull a proper deflection both sideways and upwards.

Then I continue climbing and watch the turn he makes. If he makes a very tight turn, I go upwards for a zoom climb, assuming he lost so much energy in the turn, that I will safely make it to the top. If the opponent made a relaxed turn, I continue to separate and the rest of the tactics basically depend on relative performances/strengths.

Bremspropeller
05-03-2010, 11:03 AM
Manu, I used to train headons against veteran/ ace AI, and I never had a problem concerning colliding with other people.

You either know what to do, or you don't.

Jumoschwanz
05-03-2010, 11:16 AM
It just depends on if I am being serious or silly that day.

One month I stayed serious on Spits_vs_109s and completed 87% of over 100 missions and kills in a fighter, and I am sure I did not "play chicken" much to do it.

But if you are on a silly server and in a silly mood you can learn a lot because doing silly things will show you what you can get away with and where your limits are.....