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View Full Version : Bad advice: "Close enough? Get closer!"....pffft!



rnzoli
02-06-2006, 02:24 PM
I will cry on your shoulder. If you don't mind.

I read all the books.
I read tons of advice on the Internet.
I fixed my joystick.
I fixed my wobbles.
I learnt to keep E at all times.
I practiced deflection shooting.
I succeeded in making tracking shots.
I modestly expected to be a little more successful in online combat... but no way...

Here is the undeniable proof.

Picture 1. Woohoo! Yippie! I hit, I hit the enemy!
http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/get_closer_1.JPG


Picture 2. Wow, his engine is on fire, that's a surest sign towards victory!
http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/get_closer_2.JPG

Picture 3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif Where is my wing!?!?! Nooooo!
http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/get_closer_3.JPG

Do whoever said "if you feel you are close enough, get closer" ... did not ever have the enemy aircraft exploding besides him.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Experts: what the heck did I do wrong THIS time? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG52Karaya-X
02-06-2006, 02:27 PM
Yea some planes act like proximity bombs - you light 'em up and when your just about to pass them, BOOOOOM

Dude where's the other half to my plane!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Jetbuff
02-06-2006, 02:40 PM
rnzoli, I suspect Internet lag may have had something to do with this. e.g. I've been blown up by planes that were 1000m behind me and when I asked I realized I was only 200m away on their screens. That said, try the following for avoidance - instead of trying to distance yourself through speed offset your flight path relative to the target after the pass so you are no longer in his plane of motion. This minimizes the chance of a lag spike putting you closer than you really are because of the geometry involved.

marc_hawkins
02-06-2006, 02:47 PM
Makes you cry your heart out. Happens to us all...there i was, just bagged a 109 in the engine in a steep climb in my nice shiny spit, flew next to him gloating and admiring the fire...when he promply blew up taking all of one of my wings and two thirds of the other.

Edit to rule: get close and then closer, then when he is toast fly away like buggery.

slo_one23
02-06-2006, 02:52 PM
well im typically the burning/exploding proximity bomb so i cant say much

VW-IceFire
02-06-2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
rnzoli, I suspect Internet lag may have had something to do with this. e.g. I've been blown up by planes that were 1000m behind me and when I asked I realized I was only 200m away on their screens. That said, try the following for avoidance - instead of trying to distance yourself through speed offset your flight path relative to the target after the pass so you are no longer in his plane of motion. This minimizes the chance of a lag spike putting you closer than you really are because of the geometry involved.
This is definately a good idea. As soon as you feel its dead, break 90 degrees and fly that way instead of flying faster and past him.

Grue_
02-06-2006, 04:03 PM
I think the effects of a plane exploding are a little overdone. A burst from the IL-2 rear gunner and...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/flyingscampi/ki43woe.jpg

Score: 6 Ki-43's

Cajun76
02-06-2006, 04:10 PM
Full fuel load for the AI, Grue? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I usually set myself and the AI to 50% http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-06-2006, 04:30 PM
They left the fuel caps off. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-06-2006, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
Experts: what the heck did I do wrong THIS time? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You got closer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You get closer to the a/c before you shoot it, not after you`ve turned into a malotov cocktail. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Rnzoli, from this day on, you´ll be known as "Moth". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HART_dreyer
02-06-2006, 04:36 PM
This must be a bug!

I've had this happen to me several times, it is VERY annoying!

Grey_Mouser67
02-06-2006, 04:47 PM
This effect is not modelled correctly...exploding planes, in game, give off a concussion radius and in real life, it wasn't very strong...yes, pilots flew through grease, oil, and burning wreckage which could and did damage and bring down planes...but IMHO, the effect is overbaked....

Looking at the pictures the original poster made, I doubt it is lag that created that...he is rather close and got caught in the concussion. One of the occupational hazards one gets used to when using Mk108s!

I still get real close, but I bug off immediately when a plane catches on fire, I shoot in short bursts with planes like Fw's, Mk108 armed aircraft and those with 4 hispanos...and don't follow a dead enemy too close to the ground....many deaths I have had as I was shooting a plane close to ground, he augered in before I could get my distance.

I still get real close!

MLudner
02-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Never get too close when flying airplanes made of rice paper. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I once hit a P-51D-20NA at 30m in 109G10. It blew up and took off my port wing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I did not intend to blow him up, but...

BTW: Erich Hartmann was forced to belly-in a number of times as a result of being struck by debris from an aircraft he had just shot down, so even in real life these things happen.

mortoma
02-06-2006, 05:49 PM
BTW: Erich Hartmann was forced to belly-in a number of times as a result of being struck by debris from an aircraft he had just shot down, so even in real life these things happen. Yeah, but how many times in this sim are you fortunate enough to have enough of your plane left to "belly in" when this happens??

Almost never, you usually have to bail ( if you have time ) since one of your wings at the very least is missing. Like some have said already, the effect in this sim is overdone.......period.

MLudner
02-06-2006, 05:55 PM
Debris impact, not explosion damage. Not to say the game is perfect - none ever will be. Actually, as of yet I have not been struck by debris ... just had a wing blown off once. I have come close; I have a screen shot of a chunk of DB going right over the cockpit of my 109, but it missed.

Jetbuff
02-06-2006, 06:43 PM
First, lag. It does and can skew your results. It's the plain and simple truth.

Second, I shoot from point blank range pretty much all the time yet I rarely get skewered by the blast. My biggest danger is running into my opponent by mistake (or due to lag again) and bullet ricochets when I'm at ultimate point blank range. (<5m)

I attribute my success at dodging this particular fate directly to my attack profile which is almost always at a considerable angle to the bandit's. e.g. if I'm attacking him in a turn, I'm usually slashing across his turn circle, and often oriented up to 90? to his flight path and up to 90? off his tail. This gives me more visibility for tracking him out the right/left quarter panels as opposed to over the nose and exposes his most vulnerable surfaces. It also puts me in a position to quickly change direction to his deep 6 if I blow the shot and need to extend and reset. Even when attacking from dead 6, I try to make sure I'm either passing high to low or vice versa, again providing loads of flight-path separation should something go wrong.


Back to the explosions themselves though. I'm guessing here so bear with me. When a plane explodes in real life, a veritable confetti of parts would litter the air corrrect? To be able to maintain playable fps when this happens might it not be possible that the tracking of all these individual thousands of parts is restricted in IL-2 to just the few biggest parts? But that leaves us with a problem; what about all the smaller parts? They too could definitely damage a plane. And here's the SWAG, maybe they are using a small 'blast-radius' effect to account for the smaller, untracked debris? The problem of course is that:

(a) Blast is more of an 'all-or-none' deal. You either blow up or you don't, there are few, if any, intermediate results. Meanwhile, the 'bits-n-pieces' it's supposedly standing in for could blast you to smithereens, (think flaming rivet through your fuel tank) cause extremely minor damage (scratched plexiglass) and everything in between.

(b) Significantly as well, the latter spectrum of effects could theoretically occur at any distance from the epicenter of the blast (simply a matter of luck) while blast damage is strictly a function of this radius.

(c) Where exactly is the blast radius extended to and how is it's power decay modelled? i.e. is it being extended to the farthest point where a piece of shrapnel might normally travel, (which would be too much) or much closer in? Does it only have 2 or 3 strenth levels or does it die out gradually? I don't know.


To conclude, yes it may be overdone but imo it's surmountable.

rnzoli
02-07-2006, 05:37 AM
Thanks a lot for the replies, there was no lag here, I think the truth is that the paper dragons fall apart easier. Next time I see the opponent's engine on fire, I will break hard left or right immediately (

and press Control-E, just in case... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)



Originally posted by Grue_:
I think the effects of a plane exploding are a little overdone. A burst from the IL-2 rear gunner and...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/flyingscampi/ki43woe.jpg

Score: 6 Ki-43's


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Man, you made my day with this screenshot! Hillarious... PLAAFFFFF! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-07-2006, 07:11 AM
That is one of the coolest screenies I have seen in a while. It reminds me of the mistel mission. Try this.

Start the mission but remember to save the track. once the mission starts, wait about 10 seconds, don´t throttle up either. At about 10 seconds, release the mistel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You will see 4 109s going down in flames andf everyone is screaming. It makes me laugh everytime. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
... there was no lag here...
Interesting conclusion. What makes you think so?

I ask because people sometimes confuse lag and warp. Lag is not visible at all and is always present even on a LAN.

Let me explain. Your ping is how long it takes your packets to get from your computer to the host machine. If you have a ping of 100 and play against someone with a ping of 100, then you have a minimal lag value of 200 milliseconds + server overhead. This is small enough not to be noticable most of the time. Indeed, lag only really creates a serious problem imo when it exceeds approximately 1 second. (e.g. two players with 500ms ping or more or one player with 1000+ ping)

How does it apply to your scenario? Well on your machine it looks like the guy exploded after you were a safe distance away, correct? But what if he actually exploded a full second earlier? Wouldn't you have been a lot closer at that point, at least on his PC?

Uneven lag, particularly large lag 'spikes', and packet loss cause warping. That's when you see the really strange stuff. Baseline lag meanwhile can be as smooth as silk.

rnzoli
02-07-2006, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
... there was no lag here...
Interesting conclusion. What makes you think so?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The server was nearly empty and pings were low (<300 ms) beforehand. There were 2-3 close fly-bys before this event, and the reaction from the other plane seemed pretty much synched with what I was doing. There was a head-on, where I got hit slightly when his guns were pointing right at me. In comparison, my impression is that steady lag ("smooth lag") causes getting hits when the opponent seems shooting behind my plane (because he sees me on his PC behind where I am actually are on my PC).


Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I ask because people sometimes confuse lag and warp. Lag is not visible at all and is always present even on a LAN.

Let me explain. Your ping is how long it takes your packets to get from your computer to the host machine. If you have a ping of 100 and play against someone with a ping of 100, then you have a minimal lag value of 200 milliseconds + server overhead. This is small enough not to be noticable most of the time. Indeed, lag only really creates a serious problem imo when it exceeds approximately 1 second. (e.g. two players with 500ms ping or more or one player with 1000+ ping)

Agree, it is a good explanation.


Originally posted by Jetbuff:
How does it apply to your scenario? Well on your machine it looks like the guy exploded after you were a safe distance away, correct? But what if he actually exploded a full second earlier? Wouldn't you have been a lot closer at that point, at least on his PC?

Not sure for this case. It was very rapid when the other plane exploded, I was about 3 wingspan distance from the explosion on my PC (my track). If I look at those zapping Ki-s, maybe I should be grateful not exploding right away as well, only loosing the wing (and living 2 seconds more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Uneven lag, particularly large lag 'spikes', and packet loss cause warping. That's when you see the really strange stuff. Baseline lag meanwhile can be as smooth as silk.
Agreed again. NB. This server has some strong settings, and there are certain people who are autokicked by it frequently. There are still some interesting events, when someone causes ping delays, up to 600 ms. That is already bad and I don't have any idea why it happens. Normally the gameplay is smooth (people shooting at each other, not the lagging "shadow" of each other).

Nevertheless, I know that large servers can suffer from what you wrote. I myself have been PK-d when the bullets were aimed at somewhere 100m behing me in a turn, altough his plane was moving smoothly. I just started to wonder "how crappy shooter is that guy?" when I got the black screen....that was lag, I guess.

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 01:42 PM
rnzoli, part of the problem is 'where' the decisions are made that your plane was destroyed or not. In your example, at ~300ms for each of you that's a half second delay, about 5m distance at a closure rate of 300kph. Throw in an opportune lag spike due to a bad PC on the part of your opponent having trouble rendering the explosion, a small extra load on the server, a network hiccup or a few lost packets and it might be more.

Consider this: your opponent explodes, half a second after your bullets impact. In that half a second you are also closer to him now, but by the time the info about his plane exploding gets back to you you are already past him + 5m so that is a discrepancy of 10m which may have just put you inside the blast radius, the size of which is debatable. Like I said, it is not the sole reason, but may be a contributing factor.

NB: for the record, I am not 100% sure where the various events are calculated, but not all of them are done at the server from what I gather.

rnzoli
02-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Yes, this could be a factor, 10 meter difference is life and death in this situation.

I guess it would help to see the track as recorded from the opponent. That would reveal, how close his PC thought my plane was.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-07-2006, 03:10 PM
I always get this when I'm strafing trains http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jetbuff
02-07-2006, 08:06 PM
Trains have the annoying extra problem of delayed secondaries. Never overfly a train you just strafed.