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ReligiousZealot
10-26-2005, 11:30 AM
I know may be alone with some of my opinions contained here in, but I just wanted to make this post to state what I've been thinking. First off, before anyone calls this a "whine thread" it is not what I intend for it to sound that way.

After reading forum posts and updates I seem to have gathered that when BoB is released late 2006 or early 2007 that PF will become an open modification game, or at least open to 3rd party developers. This wait time for the fixes and additions many of us wish to see is going to be long and aganizing, and in my opinion, something that will kill this simulator's community. I for one believe PF was 90% complete when it was released, the lack of flyable torpedo bombers was ridiculous, but something I could live with because it was supposed to eventually be added. I don't claim to be an expert, but I believe if Ubi and 1C had gone to court with their case it would've held up and they could have won. I understand it would've consumed money and time that probably couldn't be spared, so I can live with that. After all the legal dust had settled, it was apparent that these planes may never see the light of day.

That was until Oleg came out and talked about the 3rd party mods when BoB is released. This may look like a good idea but it seems like it will ultimately kill the community. I forsee that once BoB is released, not many people will bother with PF because its "old news" and instead be waiting for add ons for it and complaining about the lack of or FM screw up of xxx airplane.

I guess the whole point of this thread is to say, I think the 3rd party modding should be opened up sooner than the release of BoB, like say after the ?rumored? (is it still?) Platinum pack release of Pacific Fighters. Now, I believe I understand Oleg's hesitation being that he's worried that opening up the source code to 3rd party non-profit developers could result in it being stolen and used by his rivals. I hereby wish to clarify and give my assurance that if anyone were to steal the code and release it to anyone else I'm sure the community would report links/violations. Not only that, enclose an agreement with the code basically stating that if 1C catches anyone using components of it, they owe money to 1C and Ubi (I'm stating it simple, because I don't feel like rewording it to the more professional and legal way).

I for one feel PF+FB+AEP won't be complete till most of the aircraft that the community wants to see are somehow included (granted, you could argue EVERY PLANE that ever saw service would have to be included, but that's what 3rd party modders are for :P). The real question you have to ask yourself is...would you support Oleg and team with the protection of their hard work? I know I would, so are you with me?

ytareh
10-26-2005, 12:39 PM
There are some pretty horrible user made aircraft for CFS2/3 etc.Also do you really want to meet a UFO online with 20 cannons?I think the quality of this game speaks for itself.

ReligiousZealot
10-26-2005, 01:10 PM
If I my memory serves me right, I believe it was said Oleg would only allow aircraft that met his standards into the simulation on "secured content" servers (which most of the community would flock to). I highly doubt you or I would meet a UFO with 20 cannons on it, so I'm thinking your fears are greatly misplaced.

ddsflyer
10-26-2005, 01:12 PM
Point 1: There are also some very well done planes for CFS2. Don't use the bad ones, duh.

Point 2: Limit the online participation to stock aircraft, duh.

Bearcat99
10-26-2005, 01:23 PM
The 3rd party modding, is not "modding" in the traditional sense. The map making tools will be opened up.. the object making tools will be opened up... but the FM code will be kept under lock and key.. as it should be. I dont thnik that FB will die once BoB comes out.. first off not every one will be able to run it.... secondly.. if Janes, EAW,Red Baron and CFS1,2 &3 still have a following.. what makes you think that FB will just fade away becuse BoB comes out. Also what makes you think BoB will be on time?


I guess the whole point of this thread is to say, I think the 3rd party modding should be opened up sooner than the release of BoB, like say after the ?rumored? (is it still?) Platinum pack release of Pacific Fighters. Now, I believe I understand Oleg's hesitation being that he's worried that opening up the source code to 3rd party non-profit developers could result in it being stolen and used by his rivals. I hereby wish to clarify and give my assurance that if anyone were to steal the code and release it to anyone else I'm sure the community would report links/violations. Not only that, enclose an agreement with the code basically stating that if 1C catches anyone using components of it, they owe money to 1C and Ubi (I'm stating it simple, because I don't feel like rewording it to the more professional and legal way).

Not on your life... if anything some would take it and run with it and do the same thing that cheaters have done to every other moddable sim out. One reason that is constantly over looked for this sim being as popular as it is is that the usual cheating methods are not possible here. People have to resort to things like inducing lag and what not.. to cheat.... I hope this sim stay locked up tight. I wouldnt worry about the community fragmenting or anything like that. If anything because of the fact that the initial theater and plane set of BoB will be so limited mainly the die hards will gert it first... and even then if they want to do a carrier landing... guess where they will have to go. Here. I dont think there is a problem.

VW-IceFire
10-26-2005, 01:35 PM
I think we'll be playing PF for a while yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its just got so much to do that I haven't exhausted all the possibilities yet.

Skycat_2
10-26-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:
I for one feel PF+FB+AEP won't be complete till most of the aircraft that the community wants to see are somehow included (granted, you could argue EVERY PLANE that ever saw service would have to be included, but that's what 3rd party modders are for :P).
I think the addage that "you can't please everybody" applies in force here. No matter what is made available in the sim, there will always be something more that could still be wished for, for whatever reason. Chalk it up as human nature.

Need proof? Look at SimCafe's warbirds downloads (http://www.fsimcafe.com/Library/ShowCurrent.aspx?CategoryID=10&Page=1) for FS2004 -- this is only a fraction of the planes available for FS2004 at that site and SimCafe is only one website that offers community-made aircraft. Factor in all the commercial add-ons that are available and you'll end up with thousands of aircraft you can download or buy. And I'm sorry if I offend anybody here, but a lot of the free stuff that is downloadable is free for a reason.

But what if dozens or hundreds of planes become available through independent developers? Will you still need to have the same files as everybody you play online with? Will you need to download from sites all over the world to get the latest inentory of planes? This is one of the things that killed CFS-3's multiplay IMO; people downloaded altered files to fix basic things like weapon loadouts and FMs but then their files didn't match what other players had and they couldn't connect to each other. Everybody had to have the same content. I think this was an attempt at anti-cheat but in the end staying compatible with the general population became impossible.


Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:
The real question you have to ask yourself is...would you support Oleg and team with the protection of their hard work? I know I would, so are you with me?
What's the question here? If I'd refuse to buy a sim that uses the IL-2 Sturmovik game engine without license? Yes, maybe, who knows. If a competing product hits the shelf I'd have to assume it was legitimate and legal unless I heard otherwise. I'd only hear otherwise because I frequent this board. A lot of gamers would never hear about a controversy or simply just wouldn't care and would buy a product regardless. Most of us are loyal and some of us are fanatics, but we're probably the exceptions if you look at the big picture.

ReligiousZealot
10-26-2005, 06:54 PM
You've all brought up good points about it, and all I have to say is pretty much I am greatly disappointed with the lack of carrier based torpedo bombers. I don't mean to seem to come off as a whiner, but the only way it seems that we'll ever see them flyable is through 3rd party mods. To me, at least 1 for each side would add the last part to making PF complete to me...anything else is a gift from the dev team.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for every update and I thoroughly enjoy playing the game, I just feel like there's that tiny bit lacking...is there any "wish list" threads I should post on regarding additions/improvements?

The real point of the thread above, although not as clear as I thought I'd come across is merely saying that PF get opened up to 3rd parties so we see some 3rd party additions popping up once the Dev team feels PF+FB+AEP (which I assumed is after the release of the platinum pack if it isn't still a rumor) is finished and they start working full steam on BoB.

Bearcat99
10-26-2005, 07:38 PM
I am with you on the torp bombers.... IMO that would definitely round out the sim.... but coming from IL2 where we yhad to use Pes to simulate B-17s... and no Mustangs to speak of.... Id say you nake do with whats available and enjoy the h@ll out of it... and you never know. I never thought I would be flying Corsairs or lanfing on carriers in this sim. But here we are... so... you never know. In the meantime.. just have fun.

ReligiousZealot
10-26-2005, 09:10 PM
Excellent advice and I'm definitely enjoying it...now if only my school IT techs (no offense to the professionals out there, they are students here) weren't so stupid I might have a decent enough connection to play online more than occasionally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Brass_Monkey
10-26-2005, 09:22 PM
if Janes, EAW,Red Baron and CFS1,2 &3 still have a following.. what makes you think that FB will just fade away becuse BoB comes out.

Amen Bearcat, I still have all of those sims and our group will bounce from one to the other . PF ain't going nowhere, it's here to stay along with any new flight sims (that aren't junk)to come along.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/Brass_Monkey_/DSC03970.jpg

knightflyte
10-26-2005, 09:42 PM
Ummmmmmmmm.... maybe I don't have as much faith in human nature, but if patch releases are any indication, then no not many will report violations. Look how many d/led the beta 4.01 patch. If memory serves me right that WASN'T the first ime either.

I myself got the NVIDEA dlls from Sim HQ 3 days before 4.2 was released. (I honestly didn't know they were leaked, nor that they originated from 1C..... I certainly wasn't thinking. The thread was about NVIDEA problems and someone posted a link to help.)

ReligiousZealot
10-26-2005, 11:13 PM
This is completely off topic, but do you have a larger version version of that picture in your sig Brass_Monkey...is that a view from a B-17 waist gunner? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jasonbirder
10-27-2005, 05:10 AM
Will FB/AEP/PF die out when BOB is released...difficult one that - I still fly EECH & Janes F/A18E who knows how many years after they were released so age of the sim itself isn't an issue...but i suppose only because they haven't been bettered in their particular field...I'm still with F4 too (though i've switched to F4AF) but my original Il2 hasn't been out of its box since i got Forgotten Battles so maybe BOB will kill off this series when it hits the community...

If it really is an order of magnitude better than our current game we'll all be happy to fly it and forget about the other theatres and planesets until they arrive further down the line...Proper cross channel missions will be far better than using the current make-do & mend map substitutes and there are enough possibilities there (France, Britain,Noway?) to keep us all happy for a while(I guess there will be some American/Pacific Theatre fans that disagree with me there...)

As for opening up the game/source code to Mods - surely there is a middle ground between a CFS style free for all and the rigid no-Mod role we have at the moment...

I like most people will be happy to pay for quality new planes/maps/campaigns etc etc if they match the quality and realism we currently have...surely no-one will pay for rubbish add-ons and unrealistic uber-planes will only be a problem to people flying on a few free-for all type servers...Just avoid them and stick with something more limited and the problem goes away...doesn't it?

Tully__
10-27-2005, 05:55 AM
If EAW can survive for 7 or 8 years against sims like this, I'm sure PF can wait another 1.5 - 2 years to go partially open.

Krotos
10-27-2005, 07:38 AM
I won't be buying BoB. Why should I? My experience with 1C has been hopelessly dissapointing. What on earth would lead me to beleive that BoB will be a complete game when it ships - or for that matter ever a complete game? FB, Aces, and PF are missing so many significant and important aircraft that it leaves one's head spinning - why should anyone expect BoB to be any different?

Nope, I couldn't care less about BoB.

neural_dream
10-27-2005, 07:41 AM
Online-wise it will die 3-4 months after BoB is released. As of single-player that's a personal thing. Each one knows for him/herself. No reason to ask really. In terms of content the game has enough aircraft to keep you playing for the next 5 years. The thing is that BoB will introduce so cool grafix that most will not really want to play Il-2 then.

Waldo.Pepper
10-27-2005, 08:05 AM
I'm still on the fence about BOB. I believe that the planes are supposed to be super detailed, at the expense of a big planeset.

But it is the big planeset that I like, and the obscure planes are what I like. Do you know how boring it will be to see Spitfires Vs. Emils for the umpteenth time? (Oh wait thats a Hurricane! Well that was different!) Ugh!

The quality and the diversity is what I like about PF. If Pf gets opened up the 'right way' in the future, I see no reason to leave.

csThor
10-27-2005, 08:41 AM
I doubt PF will be "opened up". When Oleg talked about that "modding stuff" (still makes me shiver - mods are for the dustbin IMHO) he was talking about BoB. Maybe a few folks they trust (which will be most likely a russian majority) will get permission to fiddle with things, but I don't see them putting out a lot of planes nor do I see Maddox Games do a similar project as PF (with all the bad experiences).

neural_dream
10-27-2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I believe that the planes are supposed to be super detailed, at the expense of a big planeset.
Me too. http://www.msnmonkey.co.uk/Emo/3D/ThumbsUp.gif

jasonbirder
10-27-2005, 09:03 AM
My experience with 1C has been hopelessly dissapointing. What on earth would lead me to beleive that BoB will be a complete game when it ships - or for that matter ever a complete game? FB, Aces, and PF are missing so many significant and important aircraft that it leaves one's head spinning

Surely its not that bad - there are one or two aircraft that would be nice to have but I know I personally haven't even scratched the surface yet in terms of flying the aircraft already in the series...

Not really had time to fly any Pacific Theatre stuff (except P40's), not done much ground pounding, no twin engined planes, not flown much American or English stuff, or Jets or Late War planes yet so I guess that for me...I'll worry about them expanding the palneset further in a few years time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh and I beleive that on the way are for free...Mossie, Ju88, Tempest & more...

If someone released a WW2 Sim that allowed my to fly any ONE of those planes alone i'd be down the shops buying it...so I guess we've no real cause for complaints...

Yes more Early Japanese planes would be nice, yes more Russian planes would be nice and yes the lack of flyable Torpedo Bombers is a bit of a disappointment - but there is so much other stuff already in the Sim that its just not a worry for me!

ReligiousZealot
10-27-2005, 10:06 AM
I must say, you have a very good point jasonbirder, and I guess I must state that I haven't lost faith in this sim or its developers just because the amount of content they have released makes my head spin. The fact that they didn't include EVERYTHING that I/we thought should be in the game, doesn't make what they did give us any less fun. Sure, its disappointing that some things are lacking, but it really doesn't mean people should desert it.

Just the thought of BoB makes me drool (metaphorically, sometimes though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), the super detail, the setting...I always loved the BoB campaign in EAW, something about flying to intercept those waves of bombers made the game that much more exciting. Hearing the calls "I'm Winchester" or flying your Hurricane head on into a flight of He-111s just hearing the rounds slamming into your plane as you defiantly attack against impossible odds...caught myself there remembering the old times (the sooner we get a BoB board, the better).

That above paragraph relates in the fact that I can't wait to see/play BoB. Despite all the problems we've had with previous sims, as long as BoB contains the following aircraft: Bf 110C-4, Bf 109E-4, He-111, Do-17, Ju88, Spitfire Mk I, Hurricane Mk I, Defiant Mk I, Gladiator Mk I and Blenheim Mk I, it'll be complete to me, and that seems like it'll be one heck of a package.

Hey, and maybe we'll see those carrier based torpedo bombers and other aircraft before then, but I for one wouldn't mind if they stopped doing things to the current games and worked full steam on BoB so I could play it sooner than fall of 2006.

d9720267
10-27-2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I believe that the planes are supposed to be super detailed, at the expense of a big planeset.

I hope so!

Just as long as it's the planes I want to see, of course ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
10-27-2005, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Krotos:
I won't be buying BoB. Why should I? My experience with 1C has been hopelessly dissapointing. What on earth would lead me to beleive that BoB will be a complete game when it ships - or for that matter ever a complete game? FB, Aces, and PF are missing so many significant and important aircraft that it leaves one's head spinning - why should anyone expect BoB to be any different?

Nope, I couldn't care less about BoB.

You have got to be kidding..... a few planes sure... some nice to haves.. sure... enough significant and important aircraft to make ones head spin? No way.... Besides most people who buy this sim dont even fly half the planes in here... The people who go on and on about the "incomplete game" bit... are not looking at the big picture. This sim if taken as one 5 CD multifront sim merged out of the box with no patches for $50 has more planes maps and objects, and is more immersive and flyable than any other sim on the market.... prop or jet.

rugame
10-27-2005, 05:49 PM
Yeah that is true Bearcat, but it is still lacking important a/c, that even basic sim's came with 5-10yrs ago.

I am bitter about the lack of pacific content. Here i was expecting a replacement for AOTP and all i get out of it is a desire to try and install aotp on my current PC.

Sure its got alot of ticks on the board, but it still lacks in my books.

I just hope that BOB captures what the battle was all about, and not just uber detailed planes in an empty and un-engaging game world.

VFS-214_Hawk
10-27-2005, 06:57 PM
I purchased this game one year ago spacificly for the F4U Corsair and "The Solomon" PTO maps. I also enjoy the Aircraft Carriers to include Torpedo Bombing.

My Likes

1. The F4U Series Aircraft

My Dislikes

1. No Moving CVs in dogfight maps
2. No flyable TBM/Fs
3. No Heldiver
4. No Soloman Maps

I can give a hill-obeans about anything else....not worth the $50 in my book...not yet.

The only thing we might get in "two weeks" is the solomon maps.

Extreamly disappointing.

The reason why I purchased a Dodge Magnum was for the Hemi. If it had only been available with a six cylinder, I wouldnt have purchased one. Get it?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

goshikisen
10-27-2005, 07:13 PM
PF would be much improved if ships moved with some measure of intelligence... they make no attempt to evade attack. Dive Bombing and Torpedo Attack is virtually meaningless if the ships don't present a half realistic challenge.

The TBF would be great but its inclusion would only highlight the basic nature of PF's control of ships. There aren't enough classes of ships in PF either... Japanese and American BB's and Japanese Cruisers are missing. Battleships are pretty important if you're going to make a Pacific Naval Aviation sim.

This is all well travelled ground though...

-HH-Quazi
10-27-2005, 10:12 PM
I hear you about the ships not evading. Luckily, we have a squadm8, Zues-Cat, that does alot of mission building, and he has mastered setting up ships where they will start performing tight "S" moves and are timed to do so about the time we are coming to target. Talking about a challenge, dive bombing, and while on your way down, you watch the enemy ship do these manuveurs that make it almost impossible to get a hit on it. Well, "almost impossible" is a little stout. Let's just say that the degree of difficulty went up tremendously. It is an awesome sight to see though, when you are on your way down from 10,000 ft and watching this ship trying to evade, or make you miss with your bombs. HEHE