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View Full Version : Trim on SLIDER is back !



starfighter1
06-10-2005, 03:25 AM
hi,
I guess RBJ and his band http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
was in the beta testteam.

Do we need a new threat ?
how to trim a plane ?
how to program x/y/z
and the change in gravity ?

who is flying only by trim a looping with no stick movement http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

dear development team at Maddox: wake up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Grue_
06-10-2005, 03:33 AM
Hooray, another thread about trim on a unofficial patch.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=127;t=003023 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=127;t=003023)

starfighter1
06-11-2005, 02:51 AM
hi,
try th trim on wheel or slider(hota) test t by Cpt. Eric Brown Stick settings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Pitch 0 1 3 7 9 14 18 23 27 33
Roll 0 0 1 2 3 4 6 10 12 17
Yaw 0 0 1 2 5 6 8 11 14 16

same result http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif excessiv quick movement of mass gravity change on Pitch/Roll/Yaw line

old link review AEP:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/309109534/p/1







Originally posted by Grue_:
Hooray, another thread about trim on a unofficial patch.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=127;t=003023 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=127;t=003023)

TX-EcoDragon
06-11-2005, 04:37 AM
Sorry but RBJ would not approve of our current trim, the transit time is the same on a slider or on a hat switch now, and its a more reasonable 3 seconds. more improtantly, it no longer increases the surface throw, so generally it's not of too much use for the (queue the music Robin) Bat-Turners any more, even though its still a bit faster than most of these aircraft htat had trim knobs or wheels in stead of sliders or levers (which some DID have).

WWMaxGunz
06-11-2005, 08:36 AM
So I got the patch and lifted off, gear & flaps up, cruised until the nose came up a
ways and held down the trim key for nose down just to see what it would do. Maybe
two full seconds holding the key, the nose starts to come down and I let up on the key.
Nose contiues to go down even as speed increases. And down, and down, and down.

Yeah I think faster than before but still not instant, still delayed, still unable to
stop the **** trim or achieve anything like precise control. IOW, no real change just
an adjustment. In fact, trim by key taps seems coarser than before but I might be only
feeling too disappointed after reading posts before looking myself to be right on that.

CHDT
06-11-2005, 09:41 AM
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke!

WWMaxGunz
06-11-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by CHDT:
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke!

In reality the pilot would just use both hands on the stick, what we can't do in the sim.

IMO the joke is people who demand reality limits where they were not in reality.
In reality you CAN use trim to alleviate stick force. Same in the sim. In reality
it was done so even during combat and I KNOW that you have been presented with the
text. Yet you trot out the same General Aviation instructions or we get to hear from
an aerobatics pilot who is not spending long time in flight and not flying combat to
tell us it shouldn't be done. Screw that -- it was done by the guys who were there!
Bud Anderson states that it was a regular practice, not some kind of exceptional or
emergency procedure -- but he don't say how much. But then ***in the sim the strength
that the pilot can apply to the stick is limited*** where in reality you could for a
period apply more force at least until you tired out. How can you be see the one and
be blind to the other? Why be so anal?

|CoB|_Spectre
06-11-2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by CHDT:
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke!


Bud's recount of his Mustang vs 109 fight in the vertical clearly talks about constant use of trim. It's very illuminating. Read it yourself at http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm

I can attest to the use of trim in "little" general aviation aircraft for reducing control forces, allowing smoother handling in constant rate climbs and descents as well as for straight-&-level flight. As a pilot gains experience, they use trim almost unconsciously because it reduces pilot workload. I'm glad to see the trim response changed to something useful. I find myself using it to steady the "gun platform" while maneuvering for a shot rather than trying to hold stick and rudder at a precise point. To each his own, but combat with trim, was common practice.

Papa_K
06-11-2005, 02:27 PM
Anybody know where you can get a good setup for "trim-on-a-slider"?

Before you answer, keep in mind that "The Man" is watching, waiting...

Papa_K

WWMaxGunz
06-12-2005, 07:01 AM
Try somewhere in ******land.

It does you no big deal like before.

JG54_Arnie
06-12-2005, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
So I got the patch and lifted off, gear & flaps up, cruised until the nose came up a
ways and held down the trim key for nose down just to see what it would do. Maybe
two full seconds holding the key, the nose starts to come down and I let up on the key.
Nose contiues to go down even as speed increases. And down, and down, and down.


Might have to do with the delay that holding down a keyboard button gives already. I.e. the game cant handle all the input you are giving and continues to get those signals over a longer period than you think. If you want to check the delay better use a slider and move this to one position quickly.

WWMaxGunz
06-12-2005, 07:46 AM
I have spacebar set up fire all the guns at once.
Sim does not keep firing the guns many seconds after I let up on the spacebar from a
3 second burst.

starfighter1
06-12-2005, 08:19 AM
hi,
some years ago but uptodate by Andy Bush:


http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/trim/


http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/trim/index5.shtml

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/trim/index6.shtml

starfighter1
06-12-2005, 08:30 AM
hi,
I was able toto ask the testpilot of http://www.flugwerk.de
FW-190 and a german Veteran (Dr. Ploch).

result: they were joking about that sim feature


Originally posted by CHDT:
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke!

starfighter1
06-12-2005, 08:37 AM
hi,
by the way:
sorry it's another point(never fixed) but I asked too:
same jokes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif as they saw some pics of the cockpit forward view
FW-190/Ta in game.



Originally posted by starfighter1:
hi,
I was able toto ask the testpilot of http://www.flugwerk.de
FW-190 and a german Veteran (Dr. Ploch).

result: they were joking about that sim feature

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHDT:
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VBF-83_Hawk
06-12-2005, 08:43 AM
I flew a Cessna 180F (taildragger) for 5 years for the forestry commission patrolling, everyday, for wildfires. My patrol time was between 12pm and 6 pm sometimes flying up to 8 hours on a single wildfire. My patrol altitude was at 1,200 feet during the most unstable time of the day or as low as 75 feet in very thermal air around wildfires.

Trim was a must and a constent chore, the problem...and my point here...is that the trim wheel was manual and located in the console on the floor. I was constanly leaning over to get to it. I once flew one with an electric trim and thought long and hard about getting my 180 back. I chose the 180 with the manual trim because I just loved the airplane.

Be lucky that all the airplanes in PF are modeled with an "electric" trim instead of a manual trim wheel.

The new FM needs tweeking but its fine. Learn to fly and enjoy it for what it is. If you want an arcade game, go play PacMan.

I dont get to fly much any more so I enjoy the realistic nature of Pacific Fighters. It separates the men from the boys...well sort of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Oh yeah, I forgot....the trim "lag" does need to be fixed. Instant start and stop is the correct model. Whether manual or electric, there is no lag in trim tab movement.

I will have to try the slidder for trim input settings.

JG54_Arnie
06-12-2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I have spacebar set up fire all the guns at once.
Sim does not keep firing the guns many seconds after I let up on the spacebar from a
3 second burst.

Firing guns in the game isnt delayed, trim is. hm, my point wasnt really well explained though, or wrong actually, sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Its rather that because trim is delayed when you trim more than a few taps, you cannot properly trim a lot with pressing a keyboard button as you dont know how much input you are giving exactly, from my experience in 4.00 so far, pressing it a few seconds == a lot of trim. And because its delayed it goes on a lot longer then it takes to press the button.

TX-EcoDragon
06-12-2005, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CHDT:
But it's still usable to quickly rise the nose of the aircraft to aim a target in a sharp turn, what is a joke!

In reality the pilot would just use both hands on the stick, what we can't do in the sim.

IMO the joke is people who demand reality limits where they were not in reality.
In reality you CAN use trim to alleviate stick force. Same in the sim. In reality
it was done so even during combat and I KNOW that you have been presented with the
text. Yet you trot out the same General Aviation instructions or we get to hear from
an aerobatics pilot who is not spending long time in flight and not flying combat to
tell us it shouldn't be done. Screw that -- it was done by the guys who were there!
Bud Anderson states that it was a regular practice, not some kind of exceptional or
emergency procedure -- but he don't say how much. But then ***in the sim the strength
that the pilot can apply to the stick is limited*** where in reality you could for a
period apply more force at least until you tired out. How can you be see the one and
be blind to the other? Why be so anal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max, I have tested the trim on my usual hat switch, as well as on a slider, and I don't really have any issues with it being too slow anymore, I use keyboard rudder trim, and that is also responsive enough for me, I will try keyboard pitch trim and see if, for whatever reason, I observe what you did.

About your other comments, I don't know you've been talking to, or who you are referring to, but I don't think anyone with any understanding or experience in flight, of any sort, in any aircraft, would say that trim isn't used to lessen stick forces/increase available G, attain a stable configuration in a given attitude and airspeed, or in preparation and rarely even during a maneuver etc. etc. (during a maneuver with a loaded airframe it is pretty rare given the inability to modulate the forces that trim under load imposes. These loads may exceed pilot strength, in particular at speed, and in fairly heavy stick loadings as found in most warbirds). Perhaps you misunderstood what they were talking about, or perhaps they were not what they claimed to be? The ability to retrim is essential to any degree of precision, in particular in aircraft that have a wide performance envelope, large and heavy props, and lots of horsepower. . . ie. fighters, though fighters are not a breed unto themselves in this regard since any maneuvering in any aircraft over a wide range of it's performance envelope will require frequent retrimming if stick forces are not very light. I would expect that most simmers know this too.

The problems of the game were that trim didn't work at all like it should, it was almost instant from one extreme to the other when used on a slider(some aircraft are capable of this, though you wouldn’t do it) and it would increase total surface travel (pull full back on the stick and get 20 degrees surface travel then get another 20 if you added trim) plus there was no GILOC or structural failures. This enabled maneuvers that were not possible, not realistic, and generally not survivable. As a result of this trim was slowed down, way down, to the point it wasn't really useful in a realistic way. Since that time we gotten GILOC, we have structural failures, and most recently we have surface throw limits that are constant so that trim doesn't wrongly provided an increased surface travel. With GILOC, structural failures, and proper travel introduced to the sim there was no need for so much restriction on trim response and speed, and the speed was set to a more realistic rate.

The trouble is, people here don't seem to know that with all these changes we now have trim that is actually pretty accurate, useful, and doesn't really allow for any "exploits" even though the response is quicker. I think many of us make responses based on the way trim once was in the sim, instead of how it is now, which in 4.0 is the best overall that it's ever been in this sim. If anyone is worried about the trim being too fast or augmenting control surface travel they only need to test it in v4.00!

Grey_Mouser67
06-12-2005, 06:37 PM
I have a suspicion that Oleg enabled the trim due to the new flight model and the torque generated by it.

I have mapped rudder trim to a knob on my X-45 and if there was a delay, it might be very frustrating to try to trim your aircraft for level flight...just speculating though.

I don't mind the trim on the slider/knob other than it seems to much authority relative to the torque and other forces. It would be nice if we could get the best of both worlds...trim without such a huge impact on control effectiveness.

I was reading an article written by a gunner in a helldiver and his pilot left trim in a positive position during the dive in case he blacked out on pull out so as to keep climbing.

LEXX_Luthor
06-12-2005, 06:38 PM
Thanks TX....4.0 gives useful trim without allowing the Slider Trim Cheat?

TX-EcoDragon::
The trouble is, people here don't seem to know that with all these changes we now have trim that is actually pretty accurate, useful, and doesn't really allow for any "exploits" even though the response is quicker. I think many of us make responses based on the way trim once was in the sim, instead of how it is now, which in 4.0 is the best overall that it's ever been in this sim. If anyone is worried about the trim being too fast or augmenting control surface travel they only need to test it in v4.00!

Jetbuff
06-12-2005, 06:45 PM
Another one? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

TX-EcoDragon
06-12-2005, 06:54 PM
Well, there is still a slight speed advantage with the slider compared to the hat switch, but it's minimal, and according to some posters here the keyboard response might be slower still, but in my evaluations of it in many aircraft tin the sim the responses are pretty good, and a pretty realistic modeling of how it should be.

In the cases where the real aircraft has a trim lever the current trim slider behavior is pretty much an accurate depiction the real world counterpart. The small issue I see still is that most of these aircraft had trim knobs and wheels, not levers, and in these instances the trim on a slider is too fast since while trim response is quick, a large change in trim would require a trim of the knob/wheel and then you reposition your hand, and turn it again, the sim will simply spin the wheel pretty quick. . .if we are splitting hairs. Despite this, the changes that were made to the control surface behaviors, along with the older changes to introduce GILOC and structural failures means that even with quicker trim it's still slow enough, and more correctly simulated such that you still don't really have any advantage outside what you would have in the real world. (other than that we don't have high stick forces even when really out trim so we can fly with nose up trim and not pay any real price other than a reduction in precision, but that's not the fault of our trim simulation, it's a hardware issue).

I think this topic has already been hashed through enough, and in multiple threads. . . but I'll look at the keyboard trim since it would be good to get that up to speed too.