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cawimmer430
11-06-2005, 10:46 AM
I found this quote from Heliopause very interesting. I have heard of many instances of Allied and Axis pilots doing such acts of air chivalry and it's kind of fascinating.

Moments before, they were trying to kill each other / shoot each other down, and the next thing you know, the victor shows mercy and escorts the loser home or near home. Just fascinating. I take it both Allied and Axis pilots had some sort of respect for each other, and if possible always tried damaging the machine rather than the man flying it.

Anyone know of any other similar occurances? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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"Once (i think it was 31st aug. 1940), i was in a fight with four Hurricanes over Dover.
I was back over the channel when I saw another Hurricane coming from Calais, trailing white smoke, obviously in a bad way.
I flew up alongside him and escorted him all the way to England and waved goodbye.
A few weeks later the same thing happened to me.
That would never have happened in Russia - never. (Erich Rudorffer - 109 pilot)

Kuna15
11-06-2005, 11:55 AM
iirc Franz Stigler has ordered damaged B-17 to land in Austria but bomber crew refused to do so they didn't want to be captured. In spite of that Stigler (BF-109) did not opened fire he feel sorry for B-17 and escorted it for part on their way home. Few decades later two pilots met (B-17 pilot and Stigler) and shaked hands...
Probably I don't recall it correctly in details since it has been a while that I have read that story.

Also I know one event on Eastern front when Croatian pilot didn't opened fire on LaGG fighter since he feel sorry for a blond chap (late teen) in cockpit flying without helmet and obviously scared to death when he spotted Croatians (S. Boskic and his wingman) in their Bf-109s since he didn't reacted and continued to fly straight and level. Boskic waved him and flew away. When his wingman asked Boskic why he didn't opened fire on LaGG since he was in favourable position to do so he replied "I could not kill a kid". Of course that they couldn't tell about event (just like Stigler) since they could be court martialled.

I believe there are many other such events...

Bremspropeller
11-06-2005, 12:00 PM
Well they all loved the same thing: flying.

Some of them have talked to captured pilots and might have seen that the "other side" was just like them - except for the insignias.

There are hundreds of stories about chivalry in war - covering all sides and nations.

TC_Stele
11-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Would be nice if that type of chivalry occurred on the servers but then again its just a game.

A lot of the time I pull off when I see that they're damaged/can't fly anymore and I let them go home.

Others I see will tear their opponents to shreds even after a wing is torn off. I guess thats the whole blood thirsty thing we experience when playing games, which is fine.

One thing I've noticed is that there is no mercy for bomber formations online. You really can't afford it I guess, but I've seen some vicious attacks.

danjama
11-06-2005, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Well they all loved the same thing: flying.

Some of them have talked to captured pilots and might have seen that the "other side" was just like them - except for the insignias.

There are hundreds of stories about chivalry in war - covering all sides and nations.

I would like to see more of them, i really like reading stuff like that! Does anyone else have more of these or have any suggestions of websites or books? I can definately try to understand how they felt, they were after all in the same boat. They (all pilots of any nation) were serving their country in a relatively clean manner compared to infantry. They understood the fear and terror that each other felt and complete sympathy was always a possible result. Of course it wasnt always the case otherwise there never would of been any fighting or dying...

danjama
11-06-2005, 12:35 PM
"Would be nice if that type of chivalry occurred on the servers but then again its just a game."

It really depends where u fly and who with, but stuff like this happens all the time you just dont know it because your fighting for yourself. It is more regular on realistic servers.

Once i was on warclouds, made a mess of my bomb run in a focke wolf, and stuck low to the ground to camouflage myself against fighters. I was badly damaged in the wing already by flak and was praying that id make it. Anyway long story short, i was jumped by a couple of P51's shortly after leaving the target. They were throwing themselves at me left and right, i was smoking very bad and my engine temps were through the roof. After flying strait and level best i could and lettin them rip me to shreds for a good 2-3 minutes, the bangs and whacks finally stopped, i was alive. Looking to my rear i was terrified to see the first P51 pulling up along side me, not in a hostile way, just very calm, although the pilot in the cockpit was a in game one, i knew that the guy in that P51 cockpit was looking at me and probably admiring my balls for letting them go at me like that. To my right the second one was already sitting there before i clocked onto what was happening, i looked back at the other one, and he lifted his right wing to me and broke off. The guy on my right peeled off too. That was one of the best cases i can remember from a personal point of view. One theory is that they knew the 50calscouldnt hurt me (4.01 focke DM lol) the other is that it really was a gesture of respect and good will within the warclouds scenario. Either way, it was nice to be part of, even if i was the one beaten to a pulp and tip toeing home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MB_Avro_UK
11-06-2005, 01:47 PM
This link is interesting. View the first entry.

It describes an event in 1940 when two Spitfires shot down a German bomber. Both Spitfires landed alongside the bomber in a field (!!) and helped rescue the crew.One crew member was rescued.


http://www.fishponds.freeuk.com/nluftbri10.htm


Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Bearcat99
11-06-2005, 05:50 PM
We do see chivalry on servers... but it is just rare.. and that is because this isnt life and death.... this is a game.

BfHeFwMe
11-06-2005, 07:37 PM
It may seem chivalry, but in game it's ammo conservation. Why kill it when you already see it has the proper kill damage model kicked in.

I'll immediatly break off a black smoker, money in the bank, unless he's a bomber and still headed for target.

Estocade85
11-06-2005, 10:25 PM
Very interesting, keep 'em coming.

Yeah chivalry in online servers can be a bit tricky. Like, you're in Warclouds in a long and painful 1v1 against someone. For the past 10 minutes you two have been yelling on comms that you're in a brawl you're not sure of winning and need help. Finally, you get the upper hand on the guy, plump his A/C full of holes to the point that he barely fly, and you decide to escort him home in a gesture of respect.

THEN, all of a sudden you get bounced all over the place like some worthless piece of half-eaten meat by the guy's reinforcements who just arrived in the grid. SO, you end up pwned with no kills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I guess It's worth to try

ALso, there's a lot of mini gestures that can mean a lot, like NOT CHUTE KILL someone (3 death limit anyone?) etc etc...

IMHO, the whole conept of air combat chivalry is a big mix between medieval knights attitude and golf etiquette. It can save you almost as fast as it can screw you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BaldieJr
11-06-2005, 10:33 PM
i looked for chivalry in the dictionary and realised that this thread makes no sense.

helping someone stay alive is called kindness or compasion. i dont know why these two terms are so out of fashion.

TC_Stele
11-06-2005, 10:41 PM
LOL, you're right. Chivalry has more to do with women.

Well, you never know, you might be fighting a woman on those servers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

F19_Olli72
11-07-2005, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
i looked for chivalry in the dictionary and realised that this thread makes no sense.

helping someone stay alive is called kindness or compasion. i dont know why these two terms are so out of fashion.

From Charlemagne's code of chivalry (The Exhortation of 800 AD):

"Be humble and kind"

"Persevere not in wrath"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

polak5
11-07-2005, 01:51 AM
I have heard some good stories of chivalry, as well as some truly horrendous stories.

Anyway i was reading I flew for the Fuhrer. And in it Knocke protects a brit pilot he had just shot down and even has drinks with him!.
In the same book he talks about his first kill and how relieved he was when the pilot bailed out of the plane.

Another I read in Panzer Aces.
Tank commmander Kummel goes to rescue a downed RAF pilot even dough he was being straffed in the process by a hurri wich wounds one of his men. Then when he aproaches the pilot he gets shot at by him, and even soo he rescues him from the desert.

Capt.LoneRanger
11-07-2005, 02:33 AM
Chivalry is more than swords and beheaded warriors. The code of honor the knights were bound to included to not kill a vastly inferior enemy.

Infact looking in a translation dictionary, chivalry means "goodness/virtue".

I always play like this, even though I get killed or even tk'ed for acting like this again and again. If I shoot up a bomber to the point when he drops his bombs and heads home, I cease fire. I even escorted a B25 back home, once.
I just don't fight with somebody that is trying to limp back home or tries to land.

But then, this is the reason why I got this silly nick from my friends.


I read of one occasion where a crippled P47 tried to limp back home. The canopy was jamned, the pilot wounded. As another FW190 saw the plane he dove and attacked with MGs from quite a distance. As he noticed the P47 didn't even try to do evasive maneuvers, the FW190 pilot flew next to the P47, looked at the damaged plane and the wounded pilot, saluted and turned away. IIRC this was late in the war, early 45.

Grue_
11-07-2005, 03:21 AM
In Heinz Knocke's book there was an incident where he was set on fire by a P-47 and still managed to shoot it down when it overshot. Both pilots crash landed and chatted to each other while waiting for transport to arrive.

In Pierre Clostermann's book The Big Show, a group of Me-262's landed at his airfield immediately following the armistice. The german pilots stayed for 8 days and talked (over a couple of beers!) about their experiences. The German commander even had his baggage and batman bought over in a Me-108! Pierre's account gives the impression that there was little animosity between the pilots who had been enemies so recently.

msalama
11-07-2005, 04:30 AM
I participated in an exciting episode yesterday at the Virtualpilots server.

I was approaching a friendly airbase, having just sunk a ship, in my trusty old IL-2. I had turned on my nav and landing lights already & was on the base leg of my landing circuit. Nothing seemed out of ordinary... and then, out of the blue, a G-2 attacks me!!!

I thus promptly panicked - but in a controlled way - and proceeded to run rings around the scenery with my throttle firewalled. I actually partly succeeded in my efforts of throwing his aim off, and was therefore somewhat perforated, but not fatally. But still, holes in your flying surfaces big enough to put your head trough don't exactly increase your manouverability and airspeed - and thus your survivability http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

The situation being as grave as it was, I braced myself against the coup de grace. And mind you, the waves of the Finnish Gulf were tickling my stomach at this point so there was no question whatsoever of bailing out. But then, all of a sudden, there was just a lonely "S!" on the chat window and off he went!

Now who _was_ he? A chivalrous gentlemen? Just a punter who ran out of ammo? An opponent who was sure of me not making it? We will never know. But FWIW I landed safely, albeit a bit roughly, a moment after http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

danjama
11-07-2005, 05:53 AM
"I read of one occasion where a crippled P47 tried to limp back home. The canopy was jamned, the pilot wounded. As another FW190 saw the plane he dove and attacked with MGs from quite a distance. As he noticed the P47 didn't even try to do evasive maneuvers, the FW190 pilot flew next to the P47, looked at the damaged plane and the wounded pilot, saluted and turned away. IIRC this was late in the war, early 45."

I think this is refering to Robert Johnson. Limping away from the fight scene one day, this 190 manages to track and follow him. The 190 stays on his six but only has MG's left, and they are hitting johnsons plane by the dozen. The 190 pulls up beside johnson, looks the plane up and down, then returns to his six and hammers down again! Still Johnsons plane is resiliant against the 190's small fire. The 190 pilot pulls up to johnsons cockpit again, looks him in the eye and then rolls his eyes at johnson (in a comical manner not a hateful way) then he returns to his 6 in a last attempt. No Joy fot the 190 pilot! Finaly he pulls up next to Johnsons P47, looks at him, and Salutes him wityh a smile, takes one last look at the plane then shakes his wings and breaks off for home. I just thought this was incredible when i read it. It really made my hair stand up. And johnson just flew strait and level crossing his fingers, while the focke pilot just chowed down. A victory for johnson for sure, but man the respect that german must have felt, and vice versa. Just beautiful to read.

cawimmer430
11-07-2005, 06:51 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys! Interesting stories! Such acts of "kindness" (I thought "chivalry" sounded ok! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) and respect are very interesting, particularly when both sides were told to hate the "enemy".

Keep the stories coming! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
11-07-2005, 06:54 AM
Just goes to show pilots are the best sorta people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cawimmer430
11-07-2005, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Just goes to show pilots are the best sorta people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And also that famous quote...

RESPECT YOUR ENEMY

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bremspropeller
11-07-2005, 11:00 AM
Danjima, the german pilot is said to be Egon Mayer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Deadmeat313
11-07-2005, 11:38 AM
This thread reminded me of a profile I read in a book at home - Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, by Mike Spick. Found the quote:

--------------------------------
"Georg-Peter Eder: Although his tally of 78 victories places him low (equal 155th) on the overall list of Experten, Eder had one of the most amazing records of the whole war. Shot down seventeen times, he was wounded, often severely, on twelve different occasions. His score might have been far higher if he had not on many occasions declined to finish off a damaged adversary. While this smacks of propaganda, it has since been confirmed from Allied sources. His aircraft became known as 'Lucky 13' to those whom, their aircraft badly damaged, he allowed to escape. For this he was probably the most deserving of Experten who survived the war."
------------------------------------

There could definitely be a correlation between his tendency for leniency and the fact he was shot down so many times. Nevertheless he is very cool - and despite all he survived the war. Has anybody else anything on this chap? I would be interested in learning more of the story from these 'Allied sources'.

T.

MLudner
11-07-2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
i looked for chivalry in the dictionary and realised that this thread makes no sense.

helping someone stay alive is called kindness or compasion. i dont know why these two terms are so out of fashion.

Now, I already knew this BEFORE I broke out the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition, and looked this up; but the title of this thread makes perfect sense. Kindness and Compassion are a strong part of Chivalrous behavior and I have never known either word to be out of fashion.

Quote, verbatim:

chiv.al.ry > n., pl. -ries
1. The medieval system of knighthood.
2a. Qualities, such as bravery, honor, and gallantry toward women, idealized by knighthood.
b. A gallant or courteous act.

If you still think it has more to do with women, then - no offense intended - you need to brush-up on your English comprehension skills.

A gallant or courteous act, for example ... a chivalrous act:

Over the Ukraine Gerd Barkhorn (301 Victories at War's end) had engaged a Soviet fighter and shot it down. He noted that the Russian pilot was not bailing out. He dove after the descending aircraft and pulled up beside it. He noted the Russian pilot was alive and conscious. The Russian was looking at Barkhorn with an expression of stark terror on his face, terrified the "fascist dog" intended to finish him off. Barkhorn started pointing frantically at the rapidly approaching ground and wagging his wings at the Russian. Just in time the Russian got the hint and opened his canopy in preparation for bailing out. Barkhorn pulled up and orbited until he saw that the Russian had safely landed in his parachute.

Unfortunately, Chivalrous acts were not uniform:
Over the MTO a B-24 crew had become separated from their formation and came under attack by a rotte of Bf-109's. The pilot, realizing that his position was hopeless, signalled surrender by lowering his landing gear and flaps (The internationally recognized signal of surrender in air combat, incidentally). The German pilots recognized the surrender and accepted it, pulling up on either side the Rottenfuhrer gestured at the B-24 pilot to follow his guidance. The pilot waited for a time, then ordered his gunners to open fire on the Bf-109's. I cannot remember at the moment the exact result, but I believe one of the 109's was shot-down and the other crippled.

A VVS pilot on the EF had shot down a Bf-109. He saw the German successfully belly land his aircraft, jump out and run into nearby bushes. Soviet infantry rushed into the area, but were having no luck finding the German pilot. The Soviet pilot landed in the field near the 109, leapt from his cockpit, and having seen exactly where the German had gone he rushed into the bushes, pounced on the German and strangled him to death. He then returned to his aircraft and took-off.

BSS_Goat
11-07-2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
And also that famous quote...
RESPECT YOUR ENEMY
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think they mean do not underestimate him. Not to honor him.

MLudner
11-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
"I read of one occasion where a crippled P47 tried to limp back home. The canopy was jamned, the pilot wounded. As another FW190 saw the plane he dove and attacked with MGs from quite a distance. As he noticed the P47 didn't even try to do evasive maneuvers, the FW190 pilot flew next to the P47, looked at the damaged plane and the wounded pilot, saluted and turned away. IIRC this was late in the war, early 45."

I think this is refering to Robert Johnson. Limping away from the fight scene one day, this 190 manages to track and follow him. The 190 stays on his six but only has MG's left, and they are hitting johnsons plane by the dozen. The 190 pulls up beside johnson, looks the plane up and down, then returns to his six and hammers down again! Still Johnsons plane is resiliant against the 190's small fire. The 190 pilot pulls up to johnsons cockpit again, looks him in the eye and then rolls his eyes at johnson (in a comical manner not a hateful way) then he returns to his 6 in a last attempt. No Joy fot the 190 pilot! Finaly he pulls up next to Johnsons P47, looks at him, and Salutes him wityh a smile, takes one last look at the plane then shakes his wings and breaks off for home. I just thought this was incredible when i read it. It really made my hair stand up. And johnson just flew strait and level crossing his fingers, while the focke pilot just chowed down. A victory for johnson for sure, but man the respect that german must have felt, and vice versa. Just beautiful to read.

It was not Johnson, similar though. Johnson's Thunderbolt was undamaged when Meyer found him, his .50's were jammed - all 8 of them. By early '45 Egon Meyer was KIA (He was killed in August or April of '44, if I remember the month correctly). It wasn't chivalry that saved Johnson, it was his Jug; Meyer just ran out of lead to throw at him, that's all.

BaldieJr
11-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Chivalry is working for free at the soup kitchen. Not murdering a trapped man is (supposedly) human.

I'm not impressed. I'd do the same. Forgive me for being simple.

MLudner
11-07-2005, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Chivalry is working for free at the soup kitchen. Not murdering a trapped man is (supposedly) human.

I'm not impressed. I'd do the same. Forgive me for being simple.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Que? QVAM? What?

Personally, I would not consider working in the soup kitchen to really be chivalrous; it doesn't quite fit. However, it would be kind and compassionate. Chivalry is a code of just, decent and humane behavior at war and in personal life. But, then, helping the poor is honorable; and honor being a part of chivalry, to an extent it would be so, but I wouldn't say that because I worked in a soup kitchen I was therefore being chivalrous.

danjama
11-08-2005, 01:57 PM
I think that what needs to be understood in regards to this issue is that, these men/boys were at war, whether they or us liked it or not, and so these chivalrous acts were the exception, and so they should be. In times of struggle and war, one side must win through. Certainly in retrospect these cases are very admirable and nice to talk about, but they were not normal. In our game we can get away with such acts, for the real pilots who dealt with these issues for real, they had much less time and emotional flexibility to make a choice.

There are so many things to consider and how they affect a situations outcome. You have to look at the respect that countries had for each other, you had to look at the reputation of that countries air force, and of course, you had to look at each case in a personal view. Why would a B24 crew allow the germans to "escort" them to germany when they have them completely vulnerable and were able to get home? I know i would shoot them down, being a pilot who had trained with my crew for so many months, i would feel compelled to keep them from harm.

And as for the germans who shot up a bomber with its gears and flaps down, i too would do it, especially with stories such as the one i refer to above floating around my airbase. Wouldnt you act the same in these situations?

Like i said there are many many factors that could change the outcome of any given situation, and 60 years on, we are no closer to understanding any of what happened as we were then.

I think that fighter pilots also had this one bond, no matter what the nationality, because they all had a passion for flying and they all had a common purpose; to fight for their country by means of air combat. It was a necessity to shoot the other side down for progress to happen, im sure it was not a desire for many and most cases.

Sorry for rambling, the post isnt very structured, but i think i know what i was getting at! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MLudner
11-09-2005, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
I think that what needs to be understood in regards to this issue is that, these men/boys were at war, whether they or us liked it or not, and so these chivalrous acts were the exception, and so they should be. In times of struggle and war, one side must win through. Certainly in retrospect these cases are very admirable and nice to talk about, but they were
not normal. In our game we can get away with such acts, for the real pilots who dealt with these issues for real, they had much less time and emotional flexibility to make a choice.

There are so many things to consider and how they affect a situations outcome. You have to look at the respect that countries had for each other, you had to look at the reputation of that countries air force, and of course, you had to look at each case in a personal view. Why would a B24 crew allow the germans to "escort" them to germany when they have them completely vulnerable and were able to get home? I know i would shoot them down, being a pilot who had trained with my crew for so many months, i would feel compelled to keep them from harm.

And as for the germans who shot up a bomber with its gears and flaps down, i too would do it, especially with stories such as the one i refer to above floating around my airbase. Wouldnt you act the same in these situations?

Like i said there are many many factors that could change the outcome of any given situation, and 60 years on, we are no closer to understanding any of what happened as we were then.

I think that fighter pilots also had this one bond, no matter what the nationality, because they all had a passion for flying and they all had a common purpose; to fight for their country by means of air combat. It was a necessity to shoot the other side down for progress to happen, im sure it was not a desire for many and most cases.

Sorry for rambling, the post isnt very structured, but i think i know what i was getting at! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I wouldn't. When you surrender you must honor your surrender, just as when you have accepted a surrender you cannot then execute your prisoners.

Why? It's elementary, my dear Watson:

Imagine this: You are the Rottenfuhrer of a rotte of Bf-109G6AS's and you have encountered a lone USAAF B-24 that had gotten separated from its formation due to weather. You are aware of the incident I reported earlier. You lead your katschmarek into an attack against the B-24, your pass damages the bomber, but it is still flying. As you are coming around to attack again the B-24 lowers its flaps and landing gear and you know they are trying to surrender.

Knowing that an USAAF bomber crew had recently betrayed their surrender to another rotte, are you going to accept their surrender?

I wouldn't. I would ignore the request and keep attacking the B-24 until I had shot it down. I have a responsibility to keep my wingman alive and I will not put him at unnecessary risk. If the enemy is willing to use surrender as a ruse, then you cannot risk accepting them.

THAT is why I wouldn't use that ruse, for I run the risk of getting more of my comrades killed in the future. I would rather die myself.

Historically, once at a place called Wounded Knee the Souix got a bunch of their women and children killed because they attempted to bypass the terms of their surrender and were caught at it.

When confronted with these situations you have to either fight and die, or surrender. If you choose surrender you must honor it, for if you betray it your enemy can then reasonably justify refusing to accept surrender in the future. How many of your own friends do you want to see die unecessarily?

Would I refuse to accept a surrender? Under certain conditions, Yes. Otherwise, NO. If I and my men were in such a position that we could not take prisoners without putting ourselves at undue risk, then I would refuse to accept it and order my men to keep firing. Otherwise, if surrender were offered I would accept it and treat my prisoners as well as I could.

Why?

Put yourself in this position:
You are an infantryman in a foxhole. The enemy has completely overrun your positions and further resistance is not only futile, it is useless. The best you're going to manage is to kill or wound a few more of them before they kill you in an utter waste of human life.
Variable conditions:
A. The enemy is known to accept surrender and treat prisoners at least within bounds. You will not be tortured, starved, beaten or otherwise.

Facing that condition you would lay down your arms and surrender in good order, wouldn't you? Yes, you would.

B. The enemy is known for his ruthlessness and brutality. If they even accept your surrender in the first place you are going to be in absolute hell for God knows how long.

Are you going to surrender to those ***holes? No. You're going to keep shooting 'til you're dead and take as many of them as you can with you.

That's why you don't shoot prisoners: It does not make the enemy afraid of you, it makes them hate you.

ImpStarDuece
11-09-2005, 04:53 PM
To play a little devil's advocate; If you don't shoot to kill or you voluntarily let an enemy go, who is to say that the pilot you let go today won't be back tomorrow, or next week, or next month, to shoot you down? Or maybe he shoots one of your wingmen down, or drops bombs on a airfield or tank coluum you are trying to defend.

The industrialised warfare of the second world war meant that it was far easier and cheaper to build the 'guns and stuff' than to train the troops and pilots to operate them.

For example, the Luftwaffe never suffered from a shortage of planes, just from a shortage of pilots to operate them and fuel to fly them. What would of the last year of the airwar been like with an extra two or three hundred experianced LuftWaffe pilots defending German airspace and German synthetic fuel production?

BaldieJr
11-09-2005, 05:22 PM
If you don't shoot to kill or you voluntarily let an enemy go, who is to say that the pilot you let go today won't be back tomorrow, or next week, or next month, to shoot you down?


Whos to say there will be a tomorrow, next week, next month?

Understanding starts right now. Not after you've made your point.

If you let one guy go, maybe he's a evil bastard and he goes on to kill 1000. His actions are not your fault.

What is most likely to happen: he tells his buddies about being spared. They all think. They think about YOU. YOU are not the "enemy", you are now "him", "that guy", "a man".

Turning the other cheek isn't easy because you risk getting hit again. But you equally risk not getting hit, and thats what you gotta learn to bank on. Otherwise we have wars (not cool: its where wives' husbands and parents' sons die not of old age).

MLudner
11-09-2005, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
To play a little devil's advocate; If you don't shoot to kill or you voluntarily let an enemy go, who is to say that the pilot you let go today won't be back tomorrow, or next week, or next month, to shoot you down? Or maybe he shoots one of your wingmen down, or drops bombs on a airfield or tank coluum you are trying to defend.

The industrialised warfare of the second world war meant that it was far easier and cheaper to build the 'guns and stuff' than to train the troops and pilots to operate them.

For example, the Luftwaffe never suffered from a shortage of planes, just from a shortage of pilots to operate them and fuel to fly them. What would of the last year of the airwar been like with an extra two or three hundred experianced LuftWaffe pilots defending German airspace and German synthetic fuel production?

War is full of risks, but if you wish to receive mercy then you must show mercy.

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall find mercy." - Yeshua

In war you always shoot to kill, that is the name of the game. But when you surrender, you must honor it; when you accept a surrender you must honor it. It is a brutal business by its nature, but we do not need to make it any more brutal than it inherently is.

danjama
11-09-2005, 06:46 PM
I stand by what i said despite your well thought out argument, but TBH, i really feel i(or anyone here) am not in a position to judge what i would do or feel in any of the examples used, so its very hard to comment on it further. Its certainly something that can take alot of thought.