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AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 07:10 AM
Hi all we want to get input from the community.

We are thinking of creating a second server...

Name might be =AFJ=Axis_v_Allies

Ok we relize that WarClouds has its group of fans & Warbirds (IE: Spit v 109 & zeeks v wildcats) has there fan base... I am one of them........

But we want to make a closed pit server that has custom Icon at some short distance (Ie: 1.5 Bandit) & none for friendly?)

Anyway what I want to know is would anyone be Interested in a Pure DF server Closed pit, no externals. hosted on small maps with planesets that limited the BIG GUNZ ac


Please tell me what kind of planesets you would like to see.....

Would GERMAN v USSR v USAAF v JAPAN on 4 seprate bases work ? or would a planeset like GB/USAAF/USSR v German/Japan limiting the big gun AC such as 3x20's and mk108s

The Idea here is to get a server out there thats closer to FR with Fast Action & lots of Varity of AC to fly and less of the biggun 1 shot wonder KILLS........

Flame on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hristo_
02-17-2006, 07:35 AM
Axis vs Allies is a good start. I really hate fighting other 109s and 190s.

Stafroty
02-17-2006, 07:42 AM
yes, good idea to have Axis vs Allies.

could it be done like USA vs Germany?

Russia versus Germany?

England versus germany?

and England versus USA

USA versus Russia etc etc style of missions.??

there for sure isnt missions like that..


he can kick the history away just for having fun, still, we would be flying right?

TX-Zen
02-17-2006, 07:54 AM
I don't see anything wrong with big gun kills, it's not much different than 4x 151/20 or 4x hispano. In fact all things considered I'd be more worried about 4 hispano's than anything else.

As for planesets if you are going for arcade type fun with a locked cockpit, why not have 4 bases (or 8, 2 for each team) with USA, Luft, VVS and British each having their own team? Someone ran a server with 3 teams similar to that a ways ago and while it unfortunately never seemed to catch on, the times I flew there I really enjoyed it.

One thing I can say is that AI bombers add a lot to the mayhem, so if you're going to with externals on you might consider adding them. If it's just a pure DF server then I'd leave externals off.

As for icons I think Warclouds has the best overall settings, but if you are going to have more than two teams some form of enemy ID will probably be necessary. Part of the difficulty of full real servers is lack of icons and while that is something I enjoy, lack of icons slows down the game play in several ways.

First off it makes finding the bad guy harder and if you want action, thats probably not the best choice. Second when you do see a contact very often you have to move in close to ID him first...with 3 or 4 teams thats going to take the initiative away from the BnZ aircraft as it often does in full real servers.

All in all if you want a fun, fast paced server thats about combat, then leave the color in the icons. Yes it makes it easier to see the other guy and reduces the realism, but imho its also a necessary ingrediant for fast action.

I'd recommend to stay away from any weird dot range settings...leave the dots at 14km and maybe set the color to 5k or even 3k. Assuming you want people to be able to quickly spot and engage each other, thats going to be optimal and probably most balanced for all types of flying styles. I'd eliminate range and player name and leave only plane type with team color and player number. That keeps the icons small and not as blantantly obvious as the 30 km long default icons.

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 07:55 AM
I like thoes Ideas Strafoty, heres a mission I generated, Its not set in stone Its just an idea for a 42/43 planeset with teams = German/Italy/Japan v GB/USAAF/USSR.........


I think it looks like alot of fun for a Fast action, closed pit, custom icon (enemy only? at 3k ?), NO externals.

No mk108s no 3x20 no 4x hispano its a 43/42 planeset, Id fly in it.............
=============================================
A6M3
A6M5
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Ki-61-I-Ko
Ki-61-I-Otsu
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
===========================
F4U-1A
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
La-5
La-5FN
MiG-3U
P-38J
P-39N1
P-47D-10 (or the d22 which ever has better view)
P-51B-NA
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVIII
Yak-7BPF
Yak-9D


Maybe I should give AXIS FWA6 its a 43, This is a Dogfighters map use of energy can be used but Big guns are striped out for fun dogfighting.....

Just an idea

Please guys rember this is not a discusion of FR v Arcade (I FLY FULLSWITCH ALL THE TIME)

I want to make something new that might draw some of the open pit guys into the FR arena while providing senerio's that have not been done by anyone else that I know of.

The only way I know how to do that is to make it FUN & FAST but lock them in the pit with short enemy icon & no externals and give them the minimap, with lots of plane choice's, This is not historical or even semi historical , Its about Haveing some FUN while locked in the pit, then maybe we can get some of the open pit guys to come over, soon after that they will crave more reality like Spits v 109 or Zeeks v WildCats.

Thx for any Ideas I will consider them all and if anyone wants to generate some maps for this idea please do

Rember No big Guns like 3x20 or mk108 I want it too be fun, thoes big guns are not fun imo!!!

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 08:11 AM
Zen I thought of having 4 bases or 8 like you said, It was Fun I rember JG/777 was runing that 3 team game. I think it was them?...

Also I was thinking 3k is a bit far maybe 2.5 ? and yes they would only see 'COLOR,TYPE,ID'

I like alot of your ideas also Zen......

What I want to do is get alot of input take all the best ideas & combine them to get the most fun for everyone that flies there.

There wont be any bombers or AI only DF ac.....

I was also thinking the rotation could do several types of maps with differant planeset's but all with maximum Fun....

I will avoid puting ac with 4 hispano in the maps there as bad as mk108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifExternals will not be available.

What about a map with
Italian v German v GB v USSAF v Japan v USSR
or we could do teams like German/USAAF v Japan/GB, lmao this is getting fun already

thx for the input ZEN ! S^

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Stafroty:
we can kick the history away just for having fun, still, we would be flying right?

Exzactaly

also we would see weekeness of say USAAF v GB ac or GB v USSR

I know Im insane but Im trying to keep the game fun..........

I love Historical coops, and historic mission bassed servers. But the jump from open pit to historical Fullswitch is too large for the average open pit flyer......

hence the idea for the Axis v Allies server or it could be simply named..... Dogfighters or ... ???

TX-Zen
02-17-2006, 08:33 AM
I'm all about fun, no doubt about it. TX used to run some crazy servers in the past and I'd like to see some of that become popular again. Currently I really like the 334th settings and the AI bombers they have included (though why'd they take out the B29?), our server was extremely similar to that in the early days and thats one reason I enjoy 334th so much.

But a locked cockpit no externals server with 4 teams would be something I would definately fly on. Overall I can't fly on no cockpit servers more than a few minutes at a time, but I'm not always in the mood for realistic plane sets and historical missions either...we play the game for fun and half of that is simply being behind the stick, not necessarily pretending we are in theatre on a mission.

As for specific missions, well I'm a stick in the mud to be honest. If there isn't a D9 or at least an A5 I probably won't be seen there...anything thats all pacific and I run screaming like a little girl.

I'd say look at the what makes this game popular at the core...spits, 190's, 109's, mustangs, la's and yaks, along with some of the better types from other countries. That doesn't mean only those are worth flying, but I think thats the bread and butter that pilots want first, then to have options on the others as they see fit. I'm of the opinion that there have to be Luft planes as the core set, then everything else can be added after that to get the mix you want.

A mix like you suggest would be interesting and I'd fly there.

<S>

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 09:12 AM
I adjusted the planeset there would be many others with late war & maybe many bases with everyone v everyone

A6M3
A6M5
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Fw-190A-6
Ki-61-I-Ko
Ki-61-I-Otsu
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
=======================================
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
LaGG-3series66
La-5FN
MiG-3U
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-22
P-51B-NA
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVIII
Yak-9
Yak-9D

Texan...
02-17-2006, 09:40 AM
A Yak1b would be good to go with those 9's.

p-11.cAce
02-17-2006, 09:43 AM
I think not having bombers is a big mistake. One of my biggest complaints about the servers now is that there is no locked pit short icon server. I love the 334th but unless you put in the climb time to get up to 20+ thousand feet (an eternity in a Ju88) the icons spotlight you and you are done for because no one is interested in providing cover. In RL fighters covered the bombers because they were slow, vulnerable, & valuable targets until other fighters engaged and even then they worked to protect the bombers. Online the bombers are also slow, vulnerable, & valuable targets. For all you "dogfight only" guys out there not covering the bombers makes no sense. If you are flying up high covering me where do you think the opposing teams planes are going to be coming from? Do you think they will focus on me or you? Who is in the better position to make the kill? While they are slowly climbing up to bag me you can zoom down and take them out then return back to high cover. I'm not the only one who like to fly bombers and I don't think its fair to relegate them to an empty server.

MLudner
02-17-2006, 10:15 AM
I would, P-11.cAce, if I were there at the time and on your team. I've escorted bombers more than once.


Actually, I prefer to have external views available. The reason for this is it allows me to orient myself when I appear on the pad. I use the external view to get my bearings on the base layout so that I know which way to go to get to the end of the runway for take-off. After that I stay in cockpit. However, disallowing wonder woman view is good; no pilot ever had that, or padlock.

Set-up the bases to prevent the absolute chaos and insanity that goes on on the bases in 334th and some other servers. Line the taxiways with sandbag lines and block taxiways in one direction to direct all traffic to one end of the runway. If I can ever get my computer to work as a server my bases will be built that way.

Use a mixture of Grand Valhalla missions where anything can be flown that is player flyable, to matched missions where planesets have a cut-off date ('43 or earlier, for example). This will appeal to a greater number of players.

Jaws2002
02-17-2006, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by TX-Zen:
I'm all about fun, no doubt about it. TX used to run some crazy servers in the past and I'd like to see some of that become popular again. Currently I really like the 334th settings and the AI bombers they have included (though why'd they take out the B29?), our server was extremely similar to that in the early days and thats one reason I enjoy 334th so much.

But a locked cockpit no externals server with 4 teams would be something I would definately fly on. Overall I can't fly on no cockpit servers more than a few minutes at a time, but I'm not always in the mood for realistic plane sets and historical missions either...we play the game for fun and half of that is simply being behind the stick, not necessarily pretending we are in theatre on a mission.

As for specific missions, well I'm a stick in the mud to be honest. If there isn't a D9 or at least an A5 I probably won't be seen there...anything thats all pacific and I run screaming like a little girl.

I'd say look at the what makes this game popular at the core...spits, 190's, 109's, mustangs, la's and yaks, along with some of the better types from other countries. That doesn't mean only those are worth flying, but I think thats the bread and butter that pilots want first, then to have options on the others as they see fit. I'm of the opinion that there have to be Luft planes as the core set, then everything else can be added after that to get the mix you want.

A mix like you suggest would be interesting and I'd fly there.

<S>

I remember TX OC3 server from the old Il-2 days on UBI. Man was a blast to fly in there. The server was runing smooth and was allways full. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Jaws2002
02-17-2006, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I adjusted the planeset there would be many others with late war & maybe many bases with everyone v everyone

A6M3
A6M5
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Fw-190A-6
Ki-61-I-Ko
Ki-61-I-Otsu
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
=======================================
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
LaGG-3series66
La-5FN
MiG-3U
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-22
P-51B-NA
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVIII
Yak-9
Yak-9D


The list looks great. I'll jump in fly them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

achtung2004
02-17-2006, 11:21 AM
Locust:

I think that I am the type of flier you would be trying to attact to this server and I think it is a great idea. I enjoy flying in the full-switch servers but rarely have the time to do so properly. I therefore often find myself in the "wonder-woman" servers simply because they are more enjoyable in limited 30-45 minute time periods. I look forward to seeing this available on hyperlobby. Keep up the good work!

nickdanger3
02-17-2006, 12:21 PM
I've been waiting for AFJ to close the cockpit - seems like the natural progression. I keep on seeing those enviably big crowds in the server and would love to jump in, but cockpit-off is pretty much a no go for me.

Don't get me wrong - not a snob about all this. I learned to fly online at JGSlammins server and it was a great way to get comfortable. Now it's just not fun for me since the cockpits look so cool and it's too easy to get completely disoriented with an invisible plane for me.

If you want fast action would you consider airstarts? I know some hate them, but they take a good 5-10 minutes out of a sortie.

What you suggest sounds kinda similiar to the MOH server - pretty much pure dogfighting without mission objectives, limited but fun selection of planes that are roughly Axis vs Allied, limited icons.

I'd fly it if there were people flying: gotta have that critical mass. I think that would be your biggest problem: whenever WarClouds tries a "sub-server" like TOH or FISC it's invariably poorly attended after the initial excitement has worn off.

I think that you'll only split your audience if you run a cockpit on and cockpit off server. Then both rooms won't have that critical mass.

Seems like the best way to evolve servers is to:
1. Slowly ratchet up the difficulty. Warclouds has done a great job IMHO with the deathkick and carefully watching how people fly and monkeying with the settings.
2. Keep away from multiple rooms with different themes (Pacific, Eastern Front, Full Switch, etc). Whether it's Warclouds or Warbirds of Prey, one room always seems to be seriously underattended with one room being the primary place for the crowd.

What do you think would happen if you made the settings server wide on the main room?

Thnaks for hosting games and thanks for soliciting opinions.

georgeo76
02-17-2006, 12:35 PM
If someone wants a different dogfight server, they already have plenty to choose from (including the 35 on average that sit empty). have you considered running Coops?

Xiolablu3
02-17-2006, 12:38 PM
Cockpit graphics are too nice to leave out.

Good move I say, but surely you got the icons the wrong way around?

Why have enemy icons but no friendlies? Surely you meant friendly icons to 1.5 and no enemies?

RedDeth
02-17-2006, 01:16 PM
take the P39 out of the planeset. its an ugly plane.

HellToupee
02-17-2006, 01:32 PM
yea friendly icons is a must, no fun not knowing who ur with

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 01:44 PM
p11 if u fly in WC or Spits v 109 u might get some escort to tgt

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by georgeo76:
If someone wants a different dogfight server, they already have plenty to choose from (including the 35 on average that sit empty). have you considered running Coops?

I run coops a few times a week, I dl them from great mission makers & host them on my pc

its too bad Oleg didnt make a way to run coops from a dedicated server http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFJ_Locust
02-17-2006, 01:51 PM
Im going to go with what zen said 3k icons friend & enemy, ac type only and range @ 1k

I need to make more maps for Axis_v_Allies

right now there is only 1 map

I will make more soon

10 people were flying there today earlier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nickdanger3
02-17-2006, 02:13 PM
I think those icon settings sound great.

danjama
02-17-2006, 02:19 PM
Ill fly it if it has closed cockpits, nuff said

some good ideas floating about, but i dont like the idea of Japan against Russia etc, i prefer historical enemies

Icons are a good idea if you want to keep it action filled, the problem with Warclouds i find is it takes too long to Identify friend or foe, icons would solvethat, but youd still have the fun of no externals and no pit off, thus a more realistic and exhilerating dogfight environment

danjama
02-17-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
Im going to go with what zen said 3k icons friend & enemy, ac type only and range @ 1k

I need to make more maps for Axis_v_Allies

right now there is only 1 map

I will make more soon

10 people were flying there today earlier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just read this, sounds great actually, ill fly it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MLudner
02-17-2006, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
take the P39 out of the planeset. its an ugly plane.

Disagree 1,000%. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

MLudner
02-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
Ill fly it if it has closed cockpits, nuff said

some good ideas floating about, but i dont like the idea of Japan against Russia etc, i prefer historical enemies

Icons are a good idea if you want to keep it action filled, the problem with Warclouds i find is it takes too long to Identify friend or foe, icons would solvethat, but youd still have the fun of no externals and no pit off, thus a more realistic and exhilerating dogfight environment

Khalkin Gol.

BaronUnderpants
02-17-2006, 02:54 PM
One of the biggest reason i dont fly FULL real is icons....just cant find the buggers with my graphics settings ( suspect there are many in the same situation ) and when i do find one it takes 4-6 sec and he is gone ( not everyone has the luxery of Track IR ), im lost....world is lost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Closed pit with icons is the most fun servers in my opinion, even though i fly WW wiew most of the times ( not to many servers arround with the settings u are thinking of - with a fair amount of players that is )

I Would fly it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

danjama
02-17-2006, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Ill fly it if it has closed cockpits, nuff said

some good ideas floating about, but i dont like the idea of Japan against Russia etc, i prefer historical enemies

Icons are a good idea if you want to keep it action filled, the problem with Warclouds i find is it takes too long to Identify friend or foe, icons would solvethat, but youd still have the fun of no externals and no pit off, thus a more realistic and exhilerating dogfight environment

Khalkin Gol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

say what?

nickdanger3
02-17-2006, 03:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkin_Gol

I'd never heard about it either...

gx-warspite
02-17-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by nickdanger3:
I've been waiting for AFJ to close the cockpit - seems like the natural progression. I keep on seeing those enviably big crowds in the server and would love to jump in, but cockpit-off is pretty much a no go for me.
It's quite possible the crowd there likes the wonderwoman view, and forcing pits will drive them away.

gx-warspite
02-17-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
A6M3
A6M5
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Fw-190A-6
Ki-61-I-Ko
Ki-61-I-Otsu
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
=======================================
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
LaGG-3series66
La-5FN
MiG-3U
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-22
P-51B-NA
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVIII
Yak-9
Yak-9D
I'm not sure I like that planeset. I'm not an Anton pilot but I don't think they'll be very competitive with so many faster aircraft around, because they sure as heck won't outturn anything. Antons usually don't thrive on servers with P-51s available for that reason. IMO, of course.

Maybe go to a 1942 hard limit?

MLudner
02-17-2006, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Ill fly it if it has closed cockpits, nuff said

some good ideas floating about, but i dont like the idea of Japan against Russia etc, i prefer historical enemies

Icons are a good idea if you want to keep it action filled, the problem with Warclouds i find is it takes too long to Identify friend or foe, icons would solvethat, but youd still have the fun of no externals and no pit off, thus a more realistic and exhilerating dogfight environment

Khalkin Gol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

say what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1939: The big battle between the Soviets and Japanese in Mongolia. It was where Georgi Zhukov proved himself by creaming the Japanese pretty thoroughly.

Soviets vs. Japanese.

p-11.cAce
02-17-2006, 04:08 PM
I am going to try warclouds tonight - though I am not sure if my connection is stable enough for their settings. I ping a 79 ususally on 334th so we'll see. My 2cents is that closed pit is the way to go icons or not, but if you allow WW view most will use it as to be closed pit against someone flying WW is a big disadvantage imho. I love flying closed pit and only fly full switch offline - but if I'm in a server that allows WW I'll generally use it if I'm in a fighter. With the bombers I just stay closed pit as I'm flying for the target not an air-air engagment. Either way once they spot my icon I'm happier to see my cockpit and be able to evaluate damage easier than in WW.

MLudner
02-17-2006, 04:22 PM
I don't think I'm flying tonight, then this weekend there is a wargaming convention I'll be at until Monday night. But, then, I'm on vacation next week so I'll have more flying time.

Codex1971
02-17-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
yea friendly icons is a must, no fun not knowing who ur with

Agree....but I'd turn off enemy icons, makes you rely on your sights more.

Gwalker70
02-17-2006, 09:50 PM
p51C spit 8, and yak 9's are going to own that server lol poor dumb blue bastards... dont think so?? watch and see then come tell me different.. put a 109 g6 AS and maybe ill fly there..

p.s oh yeah La5 is no joke as well.. will own low alt while the others will own high and mid

Daiichidoku
02-18-2006, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I adjusted the planeset there would be many others with late war & maybe many bases with everyone v everyone

A6M3
A6M5~change to A6M5a...best performer, and largest production...most representitive of zero type
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6~ why bother with G-6 when G-6 late is inc? redundant
Bf-109G-6_Late
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Fw-190A-6
Ki-61-I-Ko~Ki61 Hei has 2x 20mm, MUCH needed for this type
Ki-61-I-Otsu
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
=======================================
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
LaGG-3series66
La-5FN
MiG-3U~"fantasy" type, only 6(?) produced...use instead Mig-3 AM-38, for low level, and Mig-3 2x Shvak for high alt
P-38J~with 38Late having only barely RL 38J/L climb/accel/spd performance, a good idea to inc the Late...OR, the L, for the dive brakes, given the lame-o compress issues of in-game 38s
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-22~for pure fighter duties, id prefer a D-10 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
P-51B-NA
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVIII
Yak-9~as someone else noted, a Yak 1B, in addition to the 9, would also be a good idea
Yak-9D


just suggestions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


btw, Locust....you realize the G-6 can opt for mk108, right?

willyvic
02-18-2006, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
Ill fly it if it has closed cockpits, nuff said

some good ideas floating about, but i dont like the idea of Japan against Russia etc, i prefer historical enemies

Icons are a good idea if you want to keep it action filled, the problem with Warclouds i find is it takes too long to Identify friend or foe, icons would solvethat, but youd still have the fun of no externals and no pit off, thus a more realistic and exhilerating dogfight environment

WC does have icons.

WV.

Stafroty
02-18-2006, 02:01 AM
make maps with different years, and let people keep older planes as well, as the years go in advance. like in 45, we would still be able to fly with 41 planes.. it should teach TnB pilots how to fly like in real when they cant catch them with slow plane.