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View Full Version : To what degree is there cheating/hacking in online?



SeaVee
02-03-2007, 04:26 AM
Hi,

I have not played multiplayer Il2 in a long while but want to get back into it.

I had to give up on what had been one of my favorite FPS shooters - America's Army - because the level of cheating and hacking had reached a point where it was too frustrating. Punkbuster was completly ineffective there IMHO. Having to stay "dead" for 7-9 minutes after being killed before the next round started was too frustrating - especially after being killed by an obvious hack. After 3+ years of play I gave up on that game.

I still play BF2 and I assume there might be some cheating going on but if so it is much less noticeable and annoying because you respawn in 15 seconds and can go to a different area of the map if necessary.

To what degree is cheating/hacking prevalent in IL2 in mulitplayer? If it is happening is it extremely obvious to those on-line?

DKoor
02-03-2007, 04:32 AM
Never really saw cheating in this game. Yes I'm awared it sounds ridiculous but there it is.
There may be some cheating thru exploiting things in game, but obvious cheating in full meaning of that word - NO.

If you don't believe me just go ahead play the game and you will see. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MrMojok
02-03-2007, 04:33 AM
Someone may come along and correct me, but I believe it is virtually non-existent.

Most complaints of cheating are actually caused by things like lag-warp.

Xiolablu3
02-03-2007, 04:34 AM
Compared to other games there is basically none.


The community is older than the games you mention, Most of them genuinely see the lameness of cheats. The people I play with regularly certainly would never cheat, they are just not that...sad.

There are certainly no public hacks. I have never seen a definite cheat in the year I have been playing online.

There are probably exploits that the more geeky pilots use, but they are pretty minor and anyone can learn them if they are really need that extra performance.

Cheating in online games is very much like playing football with handicapped kids and then laughing/thinking you are great when you score a goal. - its about the lamest you can possibly get.

Akronnick
02-03-2007, 05:04 AM
This sim is designed so that the core of the code is encrypted, and with the latest updates, the server can check if a clients code has been tampered with.

Some servers will from time to time display the "cheatng has been detected" but all this really means is that someones connection is unstable, doesn't mean they were actually cheating.

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2007, 05:16 AM
From every single online game I`ve played in my time, Counterstrike, NWN, Strike Force, BF42, Guild Wars, RO, I have seen cheating and suspicion of cheating.

IL2 is the ONLY online game where there has ONLY been a suspicion of cheating and not the kind of `Hak` cheating you see elsewhere, but just the `printscreen` cheat or `smoke` cheat attempts which don`t affect most people anyway.

For me, IL2 is solid and I reckon it`s due to the fact that the core program is closely kept to Oleg`s chest. Once it`s released, I`m sure the cheating will ruin online play.

Monterey13
02-03-2007, 05:23 AM
I have personally never seen any cheating in IL-2. I have heard of people using the "print screen", unplugging their modems temporarily, and something when flying with a void skin.If someone could elaborate on what the last one does, go ahead.

Has been great for me so far.

Aaron_GT
02-03-2007, 06:13 AM
I've been very frustrated in some of the games you mention, seafire, and others like it, where you fire at an opponent and hit them multiple times and it makes no difference, or alternatively you die when behind hard cover with no enemy around. It puts you off a game, and in fact a whole series of games and means I won't buy them. I wonder how much it affects sales when online play is so compromised.

MEGILE
02-03-2007, 06:24 AM
Cheating exists ofcourse

although in my experience of playing BF2, CS2, RO, IL2, WOW, GR, Swat4, Rainbow6.... I've never seen someone cheat up close.
People I shoot die.. and if they don't its because they shot me first.

Maybe one day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bearcat99
02-03-2007, 06:37 AM
Compared to other venues it is nonexistant. Some exploits like the print screen one.. that will cause a momentary lag on the screen... are just so lame that only the most selfesteem handicapped people use it. Like Xio said.. this community is a bit older... most of us want to get that warm fuzzy feeling the old fashioned way... by hunting you down and blasting you out of the virtual sky.... but things do exist. That is actually another reason to get 46 as quiet as it is kept. The code has been modified so that the former hacks.. and even those were only known to a handfull out of thousands... no longer work.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-03-2007, 06:38 AM
Very rare....In a year of online playing i've seen 2 instances of flat out cheating (I believe)

Exploits like flaps-on-slider or diving close to a lag inducing object(s) when under attack can be seen but it's employment is pretty obvious and will cost you *R*E*S*P*E*C*T*

LEBillfish
02-03-2007, 07:07 AM
As said above, it is not even an issue here.

That said I have seen some cheats. First would be by a squadron that were all able to catch up (me a good 3km ahead), pass and reach 4 km Alt to my 1.5 in my fav. plane *was so obvious was rediculous* all in perhaps 10-15 seconds....and each one could do this yet when called on it, stopped.

That along with some other minor things says yes there is cheating and cheaters........

HOWEVER, head onto HL and we have this massive contingent of folks that think nothing about bragging about stealing the sim, cheating hither tither and yon, liking to wear dresses and be called mary, on and on.....Frankly a lot of folks who have no shame and will gladly demonstrate it given an audience.

Yet these very same people you do not hear bragging about their hacks and cheats. My guess is it's because they don't know any as their nature dictates tossing it out there for all to see. So, though they may exist, few if any know of them, and that was before the recent change in code to address some known issues.

So only TicTacToe is safer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
02-03-2007, 07:47 AM
This game has virtually no cheating going on in it. There have been a few hacks here and there but nothing that really destroyed the game and virtually all of those have been fixed by Oleg and his team.

You have to give them credit. They are zealous that these people don't ruin the online experience and I give them huge kudos for that.

Online is a very enjoyable experience...most of the worst that you'll see is caused by lag and most of the other usual internet stuff. Given that the audience is huge, you have to deal with people who are from all over the place and may not have the greatest connections.

SeaVee
02-03-2007, 08:05 AM
This is all very encouraging great to hear. I'll have to get back into this on an MP basis when I get a little more time.

Like I said, in America's Army as an experienced player on maps that one knew very well it was very easy to spot a hacker but with no admin support it was absolutely frustrating. There were even hacks were a group vote ban was ineffective. Some were ridiculous like being able to "run" at 5 or 6 times the speed of everyone else, seeing through walls and mountains, etc.

People who hack games to "win" have some really screwed up mindset and absolutely no self respect. At 42 I could quite easily beat up my 8 year old nephew. Doing so would not make me a bad@ss though, it would make me a cowardly jerk. Its funny, many times I ridiculed the hackers and asked them if they actually BELIEVED that they were skilled players. One of my favored taunts was "I bet you even j_rk off to a mirror".

It was so out of control in America's Army that I simply quit playing which was a shame because it was/is a good game with honest players but very hard to consistently find "clean" servers.

Matz0r
02-03-2007, 08:16 AM
"printscreen cheat" would be the largest myth in this game. There are lots of things that will cause your opponent to lag/warp without using printscreen: graphics lag when loading objects or skins, bad connection, the server hickups, a background process on your computer spikes, I/O on your disk, sound engine loading a sound (usually when you press trigger on someone's six), you're downloading something in the background, et cetera. So why does it always have to be printscreen when someone warps? I don't know anyone that have used printscreen to get evasive, do you?

Davinci..
02-03-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by F16_Matz_:
"printscreen cheat" would be the largest myth in this game. There are lots of things that will cause your opponent to lag/warp without using printscreen: graphics lag when loading objects or skins, bad connection, the server hickups, a background process on your computer spikes, I/O on your disk, sound engine loading a sound (usually when you press trigger on someone's six), you're downloading something in the background, et cetera. So why does it always have to be printscreen when someone warps? I don't know anyone that have used printscreen to get evasive, do you?

Actually yes.
Firstly though, I have never seen any cheats in il2 ever.. ever.. And i just dont beleive they exist.And i've only seen the "print screen" thing used twice, used by the same "set" of people on the same day like 3 years ago.. And thats it. Out of all the years i've been playing online(Since original il2).
I dont believe people are going around willy nilly using it, almost all experience with "lag exploits" is just standard lag. Heck things just happen. I remember i used to(like FB 1.0) have a hugh problem with lagging right as i entered firing range on a target. But it was because of my computer choking as it passed through the LODs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I certainly didnt blame in on "print screen" cheats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So yeah i have seen print screen lag being used as an exploit.. But that was on the same day like 3 years ago by 2 people from the same squad. And thats it.. For people saying its common to see, from my experience is nonsense.

BaldieJr
02-03-2007, 09:40 AM
Beware players who say things like "there are no cheats here". BEWARE.

Mr_Nakajima
02-03-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by F16_Matz_:
There are lots of things that will cause your opponent to lag/warp without using printscreen: graphics lag when loading objects or skins, bad connection, the server hickups, a background process on your computer spikes

LOL! I was recently downed on Zeke v Wildcat by... McAfee Spamkiller.

I was manoevering at sea level in an F4F, trying to shake off two A6Ms behind me, when suddenly I went down to about one or two FPS. Needless to say I completely lost control, over-steered and made a very big splash.

I exited the game and saw that McAfee's was downloading in the background. I'd not thought to disable it.

For the two pilots pursuing me, it may have looked like an attempt at a cheat. On watching the track afterwards my plane behaved very strangly for the last few seconds before crashing.

LStarosta
02-03-2007, 10:09 AM
There are no cheats.

BillyTheKid_22
02-03-2007, 10:40 AM
I don't like cheat!!! Not worry! Ok!!

major_setback
02-03-2007, 10:51 AM
I'm accused of cheating all the time. Not cheating though. I have to be careful with the F6 key though, it creates lag on the servers based on the other side of the ocean to me.

The only issue I have with cheating is that some idiots shout 'cheat' all the time, and every time the see any lag they are spout up about 'cheaters', cursing everyone in the game.

I never cheat (if you don't count ramming, shoulder shooting, kill stealing or team kills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif).[joke].

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-03-2007, 11:12 AM
I can only speak for myself on this matter. Many have claimed to have witnessed cheating, but in my 5+ years flying this sim online on a regular basis have never seen it. If it happened, it has never cause me to lose an advantage. Never died from what I thought was a cheat and never lost a kill from what I thought was a cheat.
Trust me, I know what cheating looks like because I have played many online FPS titles such as Rouge Spear, Raven Shield, Ghost Recon, Americas Army, and the Battlefield series.

Personally I think if you fly in quality servers with quality people you dont see such things. Perhaps this is why I never witnessed it. If fly in childish servers then things could be different I guess.

Freelancer-1
02-03-2007, 11:28 AM
Is there cheating online?

Of course. It's called the 25lb Spit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AnaK774
02-03-2007, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
There are no cheats.

Somehow you sound G U L L I B L E... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

U reap what u seed buddy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-03-2007, 11:57 AM
FACT is most of the nubs that say they have seen a cheat wouldnt know a cheat if it bit them on the arase.

Bearcat99
02-03-2007, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
Exploits like flaps-on-slider or diving close to a lag inducing object(s) when under attack can be seen but it's employment is pretty obvious and will cost you *R*E*S*P*E*C*T*

Flaps on a slider or diving close to lag inducing objects is not a cheat or even an exploit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If a person is smart enough or has the equipment necessary to use them then more power to them. The print screen exploit is real. just like the quick track record one... thats why if I am going to record a track of a mission I always hit record, which I have mapped before I leave the ground.

Those things, that exploit flaws in the coding of the sim like the above mentioned exploits (PS & QTR) are at the very least unsportsmanlike and totally cowardly and indicative of a lack of skill and character in anyone who would consciously use them. Flaps on a slider is something that anyone can do if they have a spare pot... it has it's drawbacks... on certain planes if you go beyond the combat flaps setting in high Gs you can jam them.... but it certainly isn't an exploit because anyone can do it. If that was the case then things like TIR, VAC having more controllers than just the standard one, h@ll... having better equipment.... could all be construed as "exploits"... which they arent.

F16_Neo
02-03-2007, 02:50 PM
The printscreen function sure can be expoited. But later versions have the 10 seconds printscreen limit (so Oleg know it's as a potential cheat), so if you see someone warping in your revi at 10s interval, you know what it is.
Trust noone... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

major_setback
02-03-2007, 03:05 PM
I've heard some snide remarks about the speed of my La7 after I've spent 20 minutes getting some altitude, diving, and then levelling out at low altitude going at 630 km/hr.
Some people want to believe you cheat.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-03-2007, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
Exploits like flaps-on-slider or diving close to a lag inducing object(s) when under attack can be seen but it's employment is pretty obvious and will cost you *R*E*S*P*E*C*T*

Flaps on a slider or diving close to lag inducing objects is not a cheat or even an exploit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If a person is smart enough or has the equipment necessary to use them then more power to them. The print screen exploit is real. just like the quick track record one... thats why if I am going to record a track of a mission I always hit record, which I have mapped before I leave the ground.

Those things, that exploit flaws in the coding of the sim like the above mentioned exploits (PS & QTR) are at the very least unsportsmanlike and totally cowardly and indicative of a lack of skill and character in anyone who would consciously use them. Flaps on a slider is something that anyone can do if they have a spare pot... it has it's drawbacks... on certain planes if you go beyond the combat flaps setting in high Gs you can jam them.... but it certainly isn't an exploit because anyone can do it. If that was the case then things like TIR, VAC having more controllers than just the standard one, h@ll... having better equipment.... could all be construed as "exploits"... which they arent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flaps should be on or off...not in-between, right?

I mean, i'm talking about planes with no combat flaps deploying landing flaps on a slider *like* combat flaps

Plus there are a few maps (berlin for one) where you have a pretty good chance at warping most everyone to hell and back by flying too close to the city

CRSutton
02-03-2007, 03:40 PM
As an aside. You might try "Red Orchestra" an excellent WWII shooter. Much harder and better than COD. I have never seen any cheating there. Or heard of any. Very tight community and very mature due to the difficult nature of the game.

Monterey13
02-03-2007, 04:04 PM
If you like Americas' Army so much, then I can truly help you out. I belong to a group called "COOPVETS". We play Americas" Army, and all of the Delta Force series games. We play mostly coops(which AA has now), and practice fighting as a team. We are ALL Medics first, then snipers, gunners, cqb, etc... COOPVETS has a dedicated server in AA, but it is passworded. You can check us out, and if interested, fill out the recruit info on the website. You don't have to worry about cheaters in a coop. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif AA's AI are very good now, too. www.coopvets.com (http://www.coopvets.com).
I have brought several Coopvets members into the world of IL-2.

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by CRSutton:
As an aside. You might try "Red Orchestra" an excellent WWII shooter. Much harder and better than COD. I have never seen any cheating there. Or heard of any. Very tight community and very mature due to the difficult nature of the game.

I dunno, CRSutton. I`ve seen some things that are very dubious. For instance, lying prone in ambush position, waiting for a enemy Jerry to turn up. One guy pops round the corner holding a rifle in relaxed position. I fire - miss. He turns fast, still running, fires one shot from his rifle (it`s not a semi-auto), kills me dead. No aiming required, while running. Now I can guess he had a lucky shot, but when he manages this 2 or 3 times in a row with a bolt action rifle, then I must query it. I won`t say it`s cheating, cos I cannot be 90% sure, but it sure is incredible luck.

Yes, I`m rubbish at RO. I still miss often lying prone, aiming at 20 feet with a rifle.

Ratsack
02-03-2007, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by major_setback:
I've heard some snide remarks about the speed of my La7 after I've spent 20 minutes getting some altitude, diving, and then levelling out at low altitude going at 630 km/hr.
Some people want to believe you cheat.

Flying an La-7 IS cheating anyway, isn't it?

cheers,
Ratsack

BM357_Sniper
02-03-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
Exploits like flaps-on-slider or diving close to a lag inducing object(s) when under attack can be seen but it's employment is pretty obvious and will cost you *R*E*S*P*E*C*T*
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Flaps on a slider shouldn't be available. They should have the actual settings that the aircraft had, nothing in between. It most certainly IS an exploit if you add performance to an aircraft that it didn't actually have. Sorry, I have to repectfully disagree with you Bearcat. TIR isn't even close to flaps on a slider, if anything, its more realistic. Not the case with sliders/flaps.

Flaps on a slider or diving close to lag inducing objects is not a cheat or even an exploit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If a person is smart enough or has the equipment necessary to use them then more power to them. The print screen exploit is real. just like the quick track record one... thats why if I am going to record a track of a mission I always hit record, which I have mapped before I leave the ground.

Those things, that exploit flaws in the coding of the sim like the above mentioned exploits (PS & QTR) are at the very least unsportsmanlike and totally cowardly and indicative of a lack of skill and character in anyone who would consciously use them. Flaps on a slider is something that anyone can do if they have a spare pot... it has it's drawbacks... on certain planes if you go beyond the combat flaps setting in high Gs you can jam them.... but it certainly isn't an exploit because anyone can do it. If that was the case then things like TIR, VAC having more controllers than just the standard one, h@ll... having better equipment.... could all be construed as "exploits"... which they arent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flaps should be on or off...not in-between, right?

I mean, i'm talking about planes with no combat flaps deploying landing flaps on a slider *like* combat flaps

Plus there are a few maps (berlin for one) where you have a pretty good chance at warping most everyone to hell and back by flying too close to the city </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Makabi-
02-03-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I dunno, CRSutton. I`ve seen some things that are very dubious. For instance, lying prone in ambush position, waiting for a enemy Jerry to turn up. One guy pops round the corner holding a rifle in relaxed position. I fire - miss. He turns fast, still running, fires one shot from his rifle (it`s not a semi-auto), kills me dead. No aiming required, while running. Now I can guess he had a lucky shot, but when he manages this 2 or 3 times in a row with a bolt action rifle, then I must query it. I won`t say it`s cheating, cos I cannot be 90% sure, but it sure is incredible luck.

unless you mean that he was in a sprint when he shot you, then that was just plain luck. I can pull that off occasionally (and have done that more than a few times in the past), but that's probably because I've been playing since RO was a mod for UT2k4.

Lucius_Esox
02-03-2007, 04:38 PM
Cheating.... compared to all other online games I have personally played things are sown up tighter than a ducks ars* in IL2.

Praise be to the God Oleg...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The downside of course is if you get bested,,, you, in most cases really are..

Of course the obverse makes the victory sweet.

Big problem is whiners who attempt to get things changed by other means.

Tis worthy imho though.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-03-2007, 04:52 PM
Flaps on a slider shouldn't be available. They should have the actual settings that the aircraft had, nothing in between. It most certainly IS an exploit if you add performance to an aircraft that it didn't actually have. Sorry, I have to repectfully disagree with you Bearcat. TIR isn't even close to flaps on a slider, if anything, its more realistic. Not the case with sliders/flaps.
Quote, BM357_Sniper



thank you, thats what i meant http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Oleg did right by keeping IL2 closed source

MB_Avro_UK
02-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Hi all,

Been online since 2002 in this sim.

Never experienced cheating. Had problems with connection speeds but that's not cheating.

But been accused of cheating because I'm an Ace... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Code is closed.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

PBNA-Boosher
02-03-2007, 11:58 PM
I have never, EVER seen a cheat online in IL2 in my 5-6 years of flying this sim.

Not even RBJ could do it.

Badsight-
02-04-2007, 12:18 AM
ive seen people doing specific cheats at least 5 times from memory

small nature of this community means it isnt forgotten quickly :-)

rnzoli
02-04-2007, 12:34 AM
Rumours say that witnessing cheating is more probable in online wars, where the stakes are very high, and some squads don't like the idea of fighting on even terms, so they teach their members how to do warp-rolls etc., inducing network packet loss 'at the right times'. Of course, exactly the high stakes are the reason why more 'cheating' rumors spread in those communities, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Also quality hosts provide a solution to this problem (tight anti-cheat settings).

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 12:45 AM
Cheating is minuscule, usually attempted by wannabe Aces. They refuse to use teamwork or tactics, either pulling the stick into the folds of their pudgy bellies, or they mechanically BnZ up and down with no finesse and wonder why they're not better after all these years.

Real success comes when you learn that it's neither BnZ nor Turnfighting, but something that's deeper and uses both: Energy Fighting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

LT.INSTG8R
02-04-2007, 01:38 AM
Well I have been flying online with this game for almost 3yrs now, I started with just FB in Ubi and built it up one expansion at a time.
"Curse you Bargain Bin look at the monster you have created!"(See Sig) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
I never saw anything other than poor connection Lag there(and the odd Prnt Scrn attempt).
Once I found all the right Discs(Oddly PF for me was hard one to find retail)I found HL and got to join in with the "real" IL-2 Community and my true education began.
I have personally only had one "oddity" and it was of course a lag type. I encountered this gentlemen on 3 occasions, I was in an IL-2 just after take off(every time) and would start to turn to target and get trimmed up etc. and he would dive down on me,I am pretty good on the rear gun and fly alright backwards(blame Ubi and hours of DF'ing in an IL2 LOL)so I would spray at him as he dove down on me as a deterrent. He would then fly under and in front, so I of course try to line him up and take some shots as he tried to climb back up again ONLY to have him start to "Disco" in front of me(in fact it felt more like I was lagging and at the time I was on a very solid 4/1 Mbit cable connection)
The First time I shrugged it off, the 2nd time I HAD to give it a big "Hmmm" but after that I intentionally went looking for this guy and it happened a 3rd time I of course asked him what was going on and of course he promptly disappeared.(But again was only a lag type thing that could be explained)
Since 46 I have been hearing the odd report of "wierd" things, I of course put most off too paranoia and the "foil hat flyers" but one I have heard is from guys I have been flying with for years so I dont doubt what they have witnessed themselves.
2 Members of a squad I have been flying with since I found HL have seen AC pull what I can only describe by their description as a "Cobra" like move where the AC shoots past you and seems to instantly 180 on itself and head on shoot you.
I havent seen it but I do trust both of these guys and their reports where consistant.

juryman03
02-04-2007, 06:18 AM
Could someone explain the "flaps on a slider" issue?

I like to fly the F6F-5 Hellcat. In the game the Hellcat has four flap settings: Raised, Combat, Take-off, and Landing. I found out recently that in real life the Hellcat only has two settings: Up or Down.

Are you all saying that it's considered bad form, or possibly even cheating, if I use the intermediate settings (Combat or Takeoff)? Should I voluntarily limit myself to full up or down positions? I don't have the flaps mapped to a slider, but what's the difference between that and pressing the flaps button one, two or three times?

If it's frowned upon to use the intermediate settings when they don't exist IRL, then I can easily gen up a macro that will bring them all the way down or up with one keystroke.

Or maybe I missing the whole point of the issue.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by juryman03:
Could someone explain the "flaps on a slider" issue?

I like to fly the F6F-5 Hellcat. In the game the Hellcat has four flap settings: Raised, Combat, Take-off, and Landing. I found out recently that in real life the Hellcat only has two settings: Up or Down.

Are you all saying that it's considered bad form, or possibly even cheating, if I use the intermediate settings (Combat or Takeoff)? Should I voluntarily limit myself to full up or down positions? I don't have the flaps mapped to a slider, but what's the difference between that and pressing the flaps button one, two or three times?

If it's frowned upon to use the intermediate settings when they don't exist IRL, then I can easily gen up a macro that will bring them all the way down or up with one keystroke.

Or maybe I missing the whole point of the issue.

I believe the issue is this:

Using trim during dogfights makes the aircraft turn better. Some call them trim fighters. The "cheat" for lack of a better word is while fighing the flyer uses his slider to help trim the plane up thus allowing a tighter turn and less buffetting of the aircraft. We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage. It required knob turning and adjustment, even fine adjustments. Therefore, a pilot with his hand on the throttle and stick hoping to God he can take the enemy out before he gets it is not thinking about trim. With that said, the slider trim set up allows an IL2 pilot to move his trim about with his thumb(or whatever finger rests on the slider) with impunity. Once into the turn starts your trimming up and magically your aircraft is turning on rails. The only trim setting I use is after take off. I trim with my rotory(pitch and yaw) and forget it after that. I have to much going on to be turning rotory. Besides it is so sensitive on my X52 just the small turn translates into big changes in the aircraft behavior. This is how I see it. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong or add more if I'm on the right trail.

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 07:21 AM
Flaps on a slider has to to with using a rotary or slider to get increaments not possible with standard settings.

Juryman is fine with the Hellcat, because they had setting for takeoff and landing and such. The game takes care of it for you.

However, using a slider for the flaps on a Spit is different, as it only has Retracted and Fully deployed, and fully deploying at too high a speed will jam them like any other a/c in the game. With slider, it may be posssible to get degrees of flaps that allow you to turn tighter at higher speeds even though the sim was intended that you not.

reisen52
02-04-2007, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:

I believe the issue is this:

We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage.

Bud Anderson a pilot with some sucess would disagree with you.



"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe."

"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one.

Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:

I believe the issue is this:

We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage.

Bud Anderson a pilot with some sucess would disagree with you.



"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe."

"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one.

Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry

reisen52
02-04-2007, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:

I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers

Yeah right...Its such a minor thing he wrote about it in his book. A sucessful tripple ace CO & none of the troops would copy his technique or accept his guidence. His technique would not be taught in US based flight schools. Give me a break.

BTW he talks about elevator trim in tight turns & says you don't bother with the others much.

Where do you suppose he is making tight turns?

Did you know that the inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools?

Question are you a pilot?

BBB_Hyperion
02-04-2007, 08:50 AM
Well there were cheats and are. Some of the sorted out ones i can mention.

Increased local frequency timer for clock increases speed.

Is fixed with correct settings on server
checkServerTimeSpeed=1
checkClientTimeSpeed=1
checkTimeSpeedDifferense=0.05
checkTimeSpeedInterval=5

(Still possible to use when not set)

Changing for example GFX Settings when someone is on your 6

Cured with.

[MaxLag]
farMaxLagTime=6.0
nearMaxLagTime=2.0
cheaterWarningDelay=5.0
cheaterWarningNum=3

Then the problem with the unpacked files.sfs can now be sorted.

checkRuntime=1

or better (detailed test performance loss !)
checkRuntime=2

There are some more but most fall in the category exploits.

But in general about 99 % don't cheat in this game.

LStarosta
02-04-2007, 08:53 AM
hush knewbs

there is no cheating

there is only pilots that suck and cry.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
hush knewbs

there is no cheating

there is only pilots that suck and cry. ROTFL!
There is actully so much truth in that statement!

-HH-Quazi
02-04-2007, 09:31 AM
Before 1946, there was a squadron that flew the I-16 and no doubt they were doing something. Many times I could be five clicks ahead and 2000 meters above them in several different ac, all allot faster than the I-16, and it would take hardly no time and they were on my six pumping me full of holes. I experienced this a few times in 2003. Just never went back to that sever. Then I had a squad m8 run into the same bunch just last year and he was complaining of the same thing.

But as it has already been mentioned, if there was a hack of some kind out there, 1946 addressed and fixed it.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great! Another one who's goal in life is to bash and destroy yet another thread. For some reason there is alway someone that has to respond like the north end of a south bound bull. Well lets see, my Uncle Ed who worked on aircraft carries in the PTO servicing and repairing aircraft would see it otherwise. Hmmmmm, my Uncle Chip who was a B-17 pilot in the ETO would deem it otherwise. But, this is not worth continuing.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:

I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers

Yeah right...Its such a minor thing he wrote about it in his book. A sucessful tripple ace CO & none of the troops would copy his technique or accept his guidence. His technique would not be taught in US based flight schools. Give me a break.

BTW he talks about elevator trim in tight turns & says you don't bother with the others much.

Where do you suppose he is making tight turns?

Did you know that the inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools?

Question are you a pilot? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you Reisen.

Jaws2002
02-04-2007, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
hush knewbs

there is no cheating

there is only pilots that suck and cry.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

There's plenty of those out there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BrotherVoodoo
02-04-2007, 10:32 AM
This is the only online game I have ever played that I feel safe from cheaters. As much as some folks want to open the code up, I am thankful to Oleg for keeping it locked down.

BOA_Allmenroder
02-04-2007, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:

I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers

Yeah right...Its such a minor thing he wrote about it in his book. A sucessful tripple ace CO & none of the troops would copy his technique or accept his guidence. His technique would not be taught in US based flight schools. Give me a break.

BTW he talks about elevator trim in tight turns & says you don't bother with the others much.

Where do you suppose he is making tight turns?

Did you know that the inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools?

Question are you a pilot? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you Reisen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh dear God. Methinks you are reading too much into this. Using elevetor trim in a tight turn is necessary because in a such a turn, you must apply loads of aft elevator to keep the aircraft from decending and tracking around slower. Apply such loads means that the aft stick position feels very heavy and soon would create a stituation in which the pilot could not maintain the necessary aft force to hold the aircraft in the turn, and get a gunnery angle, without such things as his arm muscles 'shaking'.

So, you trim off the aft pressure: it does not make you turn faster by trimming off the pressure which many on this board who are non pilots seem to believe.

Trim does not make you turn, dive, climb faster.

As for the keeping the trim and washout comment: what you are talking about is maintaining coordinated flight, keeping the ball centered.

That has very little to do with combat flight maneuvering, but an awful lot to do with basic aircraft control.

BillyTheKid_22
02-04-2007, 10:40 AM
http://www.sotg.us/no-cheating-480.gif



www.sotg.us/index2.php (http://www.sotg.us/index2.php)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Great! Another one who's goal in life is to bash and destroy yet another thread.
Hardly.. I just found it utterly amazing that some armchair want to be would consider his sim experience to out weight that of a WWII aces experience


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
For some reason there is always someone that has to respond like the north end of a south bound bull.
Where I come from that definition is of someone that would consider his sim experience to out weight that of a WWII aces experience.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Well lets see, my Uncle Ed who worked on aircraft carries in the PTO servicing and repairing aircraft would see it otherwise. Hmmmmm, my Uncle Chip who was a B-17 pilot in the ETO would deem it otherwise. But, this is not worth continuing.
Well I don't see how a mechanic who worked on ships or a B17 bomber pilot who flew bombers 'opinion' of how WWII Fighter Pilots might have flown would be taken over that of an actual WWII Figher Pilot? In that nether the ship mechanic or B17 pilot ever flew a fighter in combat let alone adj the trim of a fighter in combat.

But, I can see how you could, in that you feel that your sim experience out weights that of a WWII fighter pilot ace. So anything that agrees with your 'opinion' is valid as far as your concerned and the statments of actul WWII ACE Fighter Pilots is not?

So, in light of this new information.. I have to decide.

Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion', and a 2nd hand ship mechanic's 'opinion' and a 2nd hand B17 pilot's 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to stick with the real ACES

Sorry

BillyTheKid_22
02-04-2007, 10:56 AM
No Cheating!

RULE:

1. No Cheating or Glitching or Hacking

2. Always respect Officers Authority

3. Never use foul, abusive or racial language in Team speak or game chats!

4. Never Disrepect Clan Memebers.

5. Have Fun!!!! OOORAH.



http://images.art.com/images/-/Peter-Sellers---The-Pink-Panther--C10042339.jpeg

R_Target
02-04-2007, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by juryman03:
I like to fly the F6F-5 Hellcat. In the game the Hellcat has four flap settings: Raised, Combat, Take-off, and Landing. I found out recently that in real life the Hellcat only has two settings: Up or Down.

Are you all saying that it's considered bad form, or possibly even cheating, if I use the intermediate settings (Combat or Takeoff)?


I always figured that they added the "combat" and "takeoff" settings on the Hellcat because the blow-up flaps (kind of like an auto retract) are not modeled.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Great! Another one who's goal in life is to bash and destroy yet another thread.
Hardly.. I just found it utterly amazing that some armchair want to be would consider his sim experience to out weight that of a WWII aces experience


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
For some reason there is always someone that has to respond like the north end of a south bound bull.
Where I come from that definition is of someone that would consider his sim experience to out weight that of a WWII aces experience.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Well lets see, my Uncle Ed who worked on aircraft carries in the PTO servicing and repairing aircraft would see it otherwise. Hmmmmm, my Uncle Chip who was a B-17 pilot in the ETO would deem it otherwise. But, this is not worth continuing.
Well I don't see how a mechanic who worked on ships or a B17 bomber pilot who flew bombers 'opinion' of how WWII Fighter Pilots might have flown would be taken over that of an actual WWII Figher Pilot? In that nether the ship mechanic or B17 pilot ever flew a fighter in combat let alone adj the trim of a fighter in combat.

But, I can see how you could, in that you feel that your sim experience out weights that of a WWII fighter pilot ace. So anything that agrees with your 'opinion' is valid as far as your concerned and the statments of actul WWII ACE Fighter Pilots is not?

So, in light of this new information.. I have to decide.

Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion', and a 2nd hand ship mechanic's 'opinion' and a 2nd hand B17 pilot's 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to stick with the real ACES

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two who did it and from what I gather, on a limited basis, according to Reisens post, I believe some more concrete numbers are called for here. Statistically speaking, I would venture to guess that your two that you can quote as using trim in dogfights probably compile a minute number as comparted to the total numbers who flown fighters.

Also, this is open discussion of what you know and can add. No claims here that I know better than the pilots who flew them. I was a general comment that I believe trim was not used in dogfights. For some reason you have to jump up and down like a kid having a tantrum because you feel without a shadow of a doubt that two pilots claiming they used trim in dogfight constitutes a high enough number to claim all trimmed.

Furthermore, it is not nice to disrespect those that fought in WW2 or any war, whether a mechanic on aircraft, pilot, foot soldier or WAVE/WAC. It just shows imaturity at its worst. I'm truly glad my Uncles and Aunt gave up their youth for 4 years of war so you can rant and rave openly without recourse. You are my hero.

Jaws2002
02-04-2007, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I believe the issue is this:


I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers



Have a look at this photo here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/trim-1.jpg

Why do you think they put it right there, so close to the throttle, even in a plane that needed very little trim during the flight (FW-190)?
On top of that they went out of their way to make it electrical operated.
I'll tell you why. So is easy to access and use during the flight or combat.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Two who did it
Wrong, only two mentioned thus far. As reisen52 pointed out it would not be hard to belive that their experience as leaders was not passed onto everyone in their squad. In light of the fact that Col Carson was one of the founders of the Clobber College I would find it very hard to belive this was not common place. And if what reisen52 says is true, ie.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">"inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools"</span>

That would just make it even harder to belive that this was not common place


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
and from what I gather, on a limited basis, according to Reisens post,
Gather again!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I believe some more concrete numbers are called for here. Statistically speaking,
Pfffffffffft!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would venture to guess that your two that you can quote as using trim in dogfights probably compile a minute number as comparted to the total numbers who flown fighters.
Warhawk.. you can belive what ever you want! If you feel your sim experience out weights that of ONLY two WWII Aces.. by all means do! But do me one favor would you? If you ever go to an air show where some real WWII pilots are attending, please let me know so I can be there to see you tell them how they did it!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Furthermore, it is not nice to disrespect those that fought in WW2 or any war, whether a mechanic on aircraft, pilot, foot soldier or WAVE/WAC.
Pointing out the fact that a ship mechanic and B17 pilot did not fly WWII Fighters is not disrespect


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
It just shows imaturity at its worst.
Did you mean 'immaturity'? If so, yes on your part! In that I am sure that if you spoke to your uncles and told them you wanted them to come into a room and dispute the statements of Bud Anderson & Kit Carson trim usage they would look at you like your crazy!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm truly glad my Uncles and Aunt gave up their youth for 4 years of war so you can rant and rave openly without recourse.
And that has what to do with the topic at hand? Or are you still trying to float the idea of pointing out that a ship mechanic didn't fly WWII fighters is some sort of disrespect?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
You are my hero.
Take a number!

Freelancer-1
02-04-2007, 11:36 AM
WTF is all this talk about trim on a slider!!!

It's FLAPS on a slider that is the exploit.

Come back when you find someone using aileron trim on a Lavotchkin and my ears will perk up. Until then trim is just trim for crissakes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 11:38 AM
Anyway, back to topic. There are no cheats that I'm aware of. I'm sceptical of the print screen cheat but I have heard of the pulling the connection to the internet to create packet lose. Personally, I have not witnessed anything other than lag for spawn or poor connect.

I'm sure AKA_Target will have something to say as well.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
WTF is all this talk about trim on a slider!!!

It's FLAPS on a slider that is the exploit.

Come back when you find someone using aileron trim on a Lavotchkin and my ears will perk up. Until then trim is just trim for crissakes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

God, you probably just opened a timebomb! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sceptical of the print screen cheat
I'm sceptical of someone that thinks thier sim experance out weights that of an actul WWII pilot


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
but I have heard of the pulling the connection to the internet to create packet lose.
That was fixed a long time ago, as was the print screen, see BBB_Hyperion post


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Personally, I have not witnessed anything other than lag for spawn or poor connect.
Was that while adj your trim?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure AKA_Target will have something to say as well.
See above.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sceptical of the print screen cheat
I'm sceptical of someone that thinks thier sim experance out weights that of an actul WWII pilot


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
but I have heard of the pulling the connection to the internet to create packet lose.
That was fixed a long time ago, as was the print screen, see BBB_Hyperion post


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Personally, I have not witnessed anything other than lag for spawn or poor connect.
Was that while adj your trim?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure AKA_Target will have something to say as well.
See above. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I check forums are not for open attack on people.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I believe the issue is this:


I'm sure there where a few who used it. I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat. I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.

But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers



Have a look at this photo here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/trim-1.jpg

Why do you think they put it right there, so close to the throttle, even in a plane that needed very little trim during the flight (FW-190)?
On top of that they went out of their way to make it electrical operated.
I'll tell you why. So is easy to access and use during the flight or combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry bud. I still do not believe trim changes were widely used in a combat situation. Fair enough?

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-04-2007, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great! Another one who's goal in life is to bash and destroy yet another thread. For some reason there is alway someone that has to respond like the north end of a south bound bull. Well lets see, my Uncle Ed who worked on aircraft carries in the PTO servicing and repairing aircraft would see it otherwise. Hmmmmm, my Uncle Chip who was a B-17 pilot in the ETO would deem it otherwise. But, this is not worth continuing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont see how he attempted to bash or destroy anything. Perhaps your just pissed because you look a little foolish. All Tag did was dispute your opinions which you based on no facts, and he did so very effectively. Live and learn.

Freelancer-1
02-04-2007, 12:29 PM
Well, I'll be jiggered...

A Tagert fanboi..

Who'da thought http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sceptical of the print screen cheat
I'm sceptical of someone that thinks thier sim experance out weights that of an actul WWII pilot


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
but I have heard of the pulling the connection to the internet to create packet lose.
That was fixed a long time ago, as was the print screen, see BBB_Hyperion post


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Personally, I have not witnessed anything other than lag for spawn or poor connect.
Was that while adj your trim?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure AKA_Target will have something to say as well.
See above. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I check forums are not for open attack on people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Attack?

Now it is clear that you have a 'FLEXIBLE' reality what with your ability to see disrespect where there is none, with regards to your WWII vet uncles..

But

What did I say..

And please, feel free to quote me!

What did I say that you 'FEEL' qualifies as an attack?

Reason I ask is I am always open to new ideas, but I honestly belive that if you were to quote what you considered to be an attack will result in showing the error in you logic not mine.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Reason I ask is I am always open to new ideas, but I honestly belive that if you were to quote what you considered to be an attack will result in showing the error in you logic not mine.
Holy smokes, Tagert, you have beer for breakfast?

I've never seen someone actually slur their words in print before </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A little OT don't yah think?

Freelancer-1
02-04-2007, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Reason I ask is I am always open to new ideas, but I honestly belive that if you were to quote what you considered to be an attack will result in showing the error in you logic not mine.
Holy smokes, Tagert, you have beer for breakfast?

I've never seen someone actually slur their words in print before </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A little OT don't yah think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your too fast on the reply, dude.

I deleted when I realized you managed to correct your spelling. Or most of it, anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RocketDog
02-04-2007, 01:01 PM
Tagert, please consider the tone you are adopting in your posts - it's getting very aggressive. I think AVGWarhawk is wrong about a few things, but if one disagrees with somebody it's often more mature just to point out that they are incorrect and leave it at that.

Cheers,

RD.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great! Another one who's goal in life is to bash and destroy yet another thread. For some reason there is alway someone that has to respond like the north end of a south bound bull. Well lets see, my Uncle Ed who worked on aircraft carries in the PTO servicing and repairing aircraft would see it otherwise. Hmmmmm, my Uncle Chip who was a B-17 pilot in the ETO would deem it otherwise. But, this is not worth continuing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont see how he attempted to bash or destroy anything. Perhaps your just pissed because you look a little foolish. All Tag did was dispute your opinions which you based on no facts, and he did so very effectively. Live and learn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see how two pilots constitues a case closed situation for trimming in a dogfight. Again, I do not believe trimming was used by a great number of pilots in a dogfight situation. Not all were cool and confident to do it. Sure, there is always the exception to the rule as stated by Target. But again, two pilots stating that the used it limitedly does not provide a cover for all pilots. Therefore, I do not believe this was widley used.

Perhaps you should read Targets first response. This post was an open attack on me. His first Response, "Based on what? YOUR experience? Then it continues on in a condesending attitude. If you read my original post the last line says "correct me if I'm wrong". This is not an invitation for open season. Not pissed. Tired of the armchair jockeys who find it in themselves to be the forum police that believe any misinformation is warrant for attack on the poster.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I don't see how two pilots constitues a case closed situation for trimming in a dogfight.
Yet you see a ship mechanic and a B17 pilots opinion as being valid somehow?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Again, I do not believe trimming was used by a great number of pilots in a dogfight situation. Not all were cool and confident to do it. Sure, there is always the exception to the rule as stated by Target.
Wrong!

I never said they were exceptions to the rule as a mater of fact I think it was common place! And if what reisen52 says is true, i.e..

<span class="ev_code_yellow">"inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools"</span>

That would just make it even harder to belive that this was not common place


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But again, two pilots stating that the used it limitedly does not provide a cover for all pilots. Therefore, I do not believe this was widley used.
Yet you see a ship mechanic and a B17 pilots opinion as being valid somehow?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Perhaps you should read Targets first response. This post was an open attack on me. His first Response, "Based on what? YOUR experience? Then it continues on in a condesending attitude. If you read my original post the last line says "correct me if I'm wrong". This is not an invitation for open season. Not pissed. Tired of the armchair jockeys who find it in themselves to be the forum police that believe any misinformation is warrant for attack on the poster.
Sorry, but arm chair sim want-to-bes who poo poo what an ACE said causes me to respond with the same level of condemnation they had for what the ACE said.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Reason I ask is I am always open to new ideas, but I honestly belive that if you were to quote what you considered to be an attack will result in showing the error in you logic not mine.
Holy smokes, Tagert, you have beer for breakfast?

I've never seen someone actually slur their words in print before </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A little OT don't yah think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your too fast on the reply, dude.

I deleted when I realized you managed to correct your spelling. Or most of it, anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Rorger, get back to us when you have something to contribute to the topic at hand other than spelling errors.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spelling errors such as your "experance" at the top there? Good day!

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spelling errors such as your "experance" at the top there? Good day! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You missed the point son!

I never said I didn't have any spelling errors!

The point is Freelance has nothing to contribute but comments about spelling errors! AKA Troll like!

SAVVY?

If not, ask your uncle for clarification!

fordfan25
02-04-2007, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
As said above, it is not even an issue here.

That said I have seen some cheats. First would be by a squadron that were all able to catch up (me a good 3km ahead), pass and reach 4 km Alt to my 1.5 in my fav. plane *was so obvious was rediculous* all in perhaps 10-15 seconds....and each one could do this yet when called on it, stopped.

That along with some other minor things says yes there is cheating and cheaters........

HOWEVER, head onto HL and we have this massive contingent of folks that think nothing about bragging about stealing the sim, cheating hither tither and yon, liking to wear dresses and be called mary, on and on.....Frankly a lot of folks who have no shame and will gladly demonstrate it given an audience.

Yet these very same people you do not hear bragging about their hacks and cheats. My guess is it's because they don't know any as their nature dictates tossing it out there for all to see. So, though they may exist, few if any know of them, and that was before the recent change in code to address some known issues.

So only TicTacToe is safer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif iv had that exp as well. speed type cheats are the most common "but not common: Also there is the german 20mm exploit as well as the FW190D posatronic rear shilds mod http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-04-2007, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Well, I'll be jiggered...

A Tagert fanboi..

Who'da thought http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why because he makes sense and you and your squad mate do not? Typical quick response when you have nothing intelligent to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You should evaluate your thought process before you post. Once again it only makes you look even more foolish. Talk about personal attacks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm sure there where a few who used it.
Based on what? YOUR experance?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I would suspect most did not fiddle with it in combat.
Bud Anderson is not enough for you? Ok, well Col Kit Carson also said he would make rudder trim adjments while on the six of a bogie. That is two WWII ACE Pilots that said they used trim during a dog fight yet you would have us belive most did not?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I do know that some pilots would trim with some upward lift. Mostly because if they fell asleep the aircraft would claim slowly. Some also trimmed a little to the left or right depending on what side of the formation they were on for much the same reason. The aircraft would climb and turn away from the others.
Duh


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But I would dare say that by and large, not many where twisting three knobs/throttle/stick during combat manuevers
I Dare say I have to choose.. Do I take your non-WWII ACE want-a-be sim flying 'opinion' or do I take Bud Anderson and Kit Carsons experanced based 'statements'?

Hmmmmmm

After much thought.. I will have to go with the real ACES.

Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spelling errors such as your "experance" at the top there? Good day! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You missed the point son!

I never said I didn't have any spelling errors!

The point is Freelance has nothing to contribute but spelling errors! AKA Troll like!

SAVVY?

If not, ask your uncle for clarification! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Son? Last time I checked your shoes were not under my mamma's bed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Savvy? Jack Sparrow I believe.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Son? Last time I checked your shoes were not under my mamma's bed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I go barefoot alot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Savvy? Jack Sparrow I believe.
Wrong again!

BaronUnderpants
02-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Warhawk, you are wasting your time. You might as well try to stop a steamroller.

As u say 2 accounts doesnt make it so. U might be wrong, u might be right about your "trim not widely used in combat"..as in the HEAT OF THE MOMENT.

I myselfe lean towards that assumption, for every ACE there where 100 complete "noobs", no dissrespect intended.

Just leave it alone, some people argue for the sake of arguing...no matter what. Some have learned that if they go through life screaming loud anough, nobody dares dissegre with them.

To bad it works like **** on the internet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BTW, just to beat all of "u" to it....no i dont claim anything, i simply said "i lean towards that assumption"...nothing more. Got it?

Freelancer-1
02-04-2007, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:

The point is Freelance has nothing to contribute but comments about spelling errors! AKA Troll like!

SAVVY?

If not, ask your uncle for clarification!



The reason I posted was that your post was so full of abysmal spelling errors that I honestly had no idea what you were saying. You fixed it, I deleted my comment and that's all she wrote.

As always, Tagert, you will want the last word, so I bow out now and let you get right to it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:

The point is Freelance has nothing to contribute but comments about spelling errors! AKA Troll like!

SAVVY?

If not, ask your uncle for clarification!



The reason I posted was that your post was so full of abysmal spelling errors that I honestly had no idea what you were saying. You fixed it, I deleted my comment and that's all she wrote.

As always, Tagert, you will want the last word, so I bow out now and let you get right to it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Roger, I got it the first time! But the request still stands, get back to us when you have something to contribute to the topic at hand other than the correction of spelling errors that you could simply PM me with, if your goal was to help me instead of trolling.

Abbeville-Boy
02-04-2007, 01:31 PM
IBTL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

BaronUnderpants
02-04-2007, 01:33 PM
Yep. Somehow "we" managed to Fu""k up a "is there any cheats in this game" thread.


Pitefull. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:34 PM
Yep, just another thread gone south for 3 pages. For some reason, 'correct me if I'm wrong' translates to 'open season breakout the big guns'. Damn, we are good!

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 01:36 PM
Funny what can happen when sim pilots think they know better than real ACES aint it?

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Funny what can happen when sim pilots think they know better than real ACES aint it?

No, its funny how some believe it is open season for just about anything goes responses even after they state "correct me if I'm wrong". Facts are nice. Presentation is everything.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-04-2007, 01:41 PM
No....Flaps on a slider is the exploit.

Trim on a slider makes sense

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
No....Flaps on a slider is the exploit.

Trim on a slider makes sense

Ok, I'll buy that.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
No, its funny how some believe it is open season for just about anything goes responses even after they state "correct me if I'm wrong". Facts are nice. Presentation is everything. Nice try!

But

My first reply to you was NOT to the one where you stated your 'FEELINGS' and said 'that' at the end.

My first reply to you was after you disregarded what reisen52 told you about how Bud Anderson would disagree with your 'FEELINGS'.

Thus you moved from asking people to "correct you if you are wrong" to defending your "FEELINGS".

At which point I presented you with another WWII pilots account of trim usage, that you also tried to play down.

Like I said.. Nice try! Gold star for effort in re-writing your history of what you said, but no sale!

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 02:07 PM
What a mess....

reisen52 quotes Bud Anderson:

"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe."</span>

"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning.</span> The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Your left hand was down there</span>("there" being the trim wheels) <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat</span> . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

reisen52 also states:

Did you know that the inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools?

Unless someone is going to dispute it, it makes sense to reduce stick pressure during hard maneuvers to help aim. Help keep you flying one handed instead of taking your hand off the throttle.

Now, for the elevator exploit, it used to be that it was used to turn tighter than just turning without it. Maybe the reduction in stick force was modeled, or it allowed more deflection of the elevator, whatever it seems to have gone away. Used to see it a lot, now I don't. The trim delay supposedly took care of it. Now the kids seem to fixated on the massive negative G with or without neg G barrel roll maneuver, especially the 109's.

As far as the flaps on a slider:

Cajun wrote: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Flaps on a slider has to to with using a rotary or slider to get increments not possible with standard settings.

Juryman is fine with the Hellcat, because they had settings for takeoff and landing and such. The game takes care of it for you with preset increments.

However, using a slider for the flaps on say, a Spit, is different, as it only has Retracted and Fully deployed, and fully deploying at too high a speed will jam them like any other a/c in the game. With slider, it may be possible to get degrees of flaps that allow you to turn tighter at higher speeds even though the sim was intended that you not.

This is obviously well thought out, genius post with loads of intelligence. I believe him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Akronnick
02-04-2007, 02:11 PM
Does putting your flaps on a slider in a Spit really help that much?

In order to use them without breaking the airplane you have to fly really slow.

Getting slow in combat isn't my idea of a good time, more like suicide.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 02:14 PM
Of special interest..


Originally posted by Cajun76 a quote of Bud Anderson:
<span class="ev_code_yellow">"At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."</span>

Some here SAY/FEEL that 'most' WWII pilot were not smart/good enough to do this.. Talk about being disrespectful to WWII vets!

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
No, its funny how some believe it is open season for just about anything goes responses even after they state "correct me if I'm wrong". Facts are nice. Presentation is everything. Nice try!

But

My first reply to you was NOT to the one where you stated your 'FEELINGS' and said 'that' at the end.

My first reply to you was after you disregarded what reisen52 told you about how Bud Anderson would disagree with your 'FEELINGS'.

Thus you moved from asking people to "correct you if you are wrong" to defending your "FEELINGS".

At which point I presented you with another WWII pilots account of trim usage, that you also tried to play down.

Like I said.. Nice try! Gold star for effort in re-writing your history of what you said, but no sale! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats the difference? You jumped in both guns blazing after my original posts. Saavy? You might want to explore your presentation of the facts in composed tone. Telling people 'DUH' is not what I would call stating your facts and points to someone else flawed thinking on a subject matter. That is not so hard is it?

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Of special interest..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76 a quote of Bud Anderson:
<span class="ev_code_yellow">"At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."</span>

Some here SAY/FEEL that 'most' WWII pilot were not smart/good enough to do this.. Talk about being disrespectful to WWII vets! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not understand your response to this? Can you clarify? I read this as Bud Anderson saying this.

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
No, its funny how some believe it is open season for just about anything goes responses even after they state "correct me if I'm wrong". Facts are nice. Presentation is everything. Nice try!

But

My first reply to you was NOT to the one where you stated your 'FEELINGS' and said 'that' at the end.

My first reply to you was after you disregarded what reisen52 told you about how Bud Anderson would disagree with your 'FEELINGS'.

Thus you moved from asking people to "correct you if you are wrong" to defending your "FEELINGS".

At which point I presented you with another WWII pilots account of trim usage, that you also tried to play down.

Like I said.. Nice try! Gold star for effort in re-writing your history of what you said, but no sale! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats the difference? You jumped in both guns blazing after my original posts. Saavy? You might want to explore your presentation of the facts in composed tone. Telling people 'DUH' is not what I would call stating your facts and points to someone else flawed thinking on a subject matter. That is not so hard is it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The difference is you went on to defend your position even afer an ACE correted you

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
No, its funny how some believe it is open season for just about anything goes responses even after they state "correct me if I'm wrong". Facts are nice. Presentation is everything. Nice try!

But

My first reply to you was NOT to the one where you stated your 'FEELINGS' and said 'that' at the end.

My first reply to you was after you disregarded what reisen52 told you about how Bud Anderson would disagree with your 'FEELINGS'.

Thus you moved from asking people to "correct you if you are wrong" to defending your "FEELINGS".

At which point I presented you with another WWII pilots account of trim usage, that you also tried to play down.

Like I said.. Nice try! Gold star for effort in re-writing your history of what you said, but no sale! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats the difference? You jumped in both guns blazing after my original posts. Saavy? You might want to explore your presentation of the facts in composed tone. Telling people 'DUH' is not what I would call stating your facts and points to someone else flawed thinking on a subject matter. That is not so hard is it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The difference is you went on to defend your position even afer an ACE correted you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Defending? One could look at it this way. One could look at it as the opening for intelligent discussion. You decided to come in guns blazing.

One thing is for sure. We have spent the entire afternoon basically beating our keyboards into submission and for really no good reason. Agreed?

Jaws2002
02-04-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:


Have a look at this photo here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/trim-1.jpg

Why do you think they put it right there, so close to the throttle, even in a plane that needed very little trim during the flight (FW-190)?
On top of that they went out of their way to make it electrical operated.
I'll tell you why. So is easy to access and use during the flight or combat.

Sorry bud. I still do not believe trim changes were widely used in a combat situation. Fair enough? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didn't post that because you have one or another opinion. You are entitled to belive what ever you want. I posted because you called it a "CHEAT".

To get an idea how it was back then you don't have to ask veterans, or look for quotes. All you have to do is to look at the systems available in the aircraft. If the trim is easily accessible and easy enough to use so a fighter pilot could use it in combat, I don't need fairy tales. That's enough. If is there (as you saw in that FW-190) it is usable in combat. I don't care how many used it or not. Not all pilots had the same aptitudes just like online flying.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 02:43 PM
@Jaws

I see your point on the CHEAT. Then you would agree that putting flaps on a slider would be construed at a cheat? I would think that in the heat of combat the trim was not a concern for some pilots? In other words, it was throttle and stick until the last man was flying?

LStarosta
02-04-2007, 02:52 PM
My setup:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002A59Z4.01._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

From left to right:

Throttle, RPM, Mixture Control, Rudder Trim, Aileron Trim, Elevator Trim.

SeaFireLIV
02-04-2007, 02:52 PM
After reading this silly ego ****, it just dawned on me that on my second joystick I have the throttle control set to `trim`.

Wow, that means I must be a cheater!

Funny, how I don`t kick butt as often as I`d like!

DKoor
02-04-2007, 02:52 PM
Guys you have spent t0ns of posts arguing over nothing.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o125/DKoor/smileys/blabla.gif
I never really thought about what RL fighter pilots say; I just take what they say and accept it and what's more important I enjoy reading their stories.

Because after playing this particular game I still don't know anything about the ww2 aircombat "feeling".
-------------------------------
Trim on a slider cheat?

This is a school example of an oxymoron.

The whole game is cheat if we look at it that way so what's the point in persisting on such BS?

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Defending? One could look at it this way.
What other way could you look at it? I mean you said did say..


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage. It required knob turning and adjustment, even fine adjustments. Therefore, a pilot with his hand on the throttle and stick hoping to God he can take the enemy out before he gets it is not thinking about trim.
Fist mistake there was you included ALL OF US in your statement when you said "We all know"!

As if we all agreed with you and there was no question about it! You than proceeded to describe how impossible it was! Even though Bud Anderson says it is as easy and turing the radio knob while driving a car.

Even after reisen52 and I showed you how wrong you were by telling you what real WWII pilots had to say about it you wouldnt admit you could be wrong!

You know the thing you ASK ANYONE TO SHOW YOU IF YOU WERE!

You than proceeded to defend your position by disregarding what Bud Anderson had to say!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
One could look at it as the opening for intelligent discussion.
up until the point where you disrespected Bud Anderson


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
You decided to come in guns blazing.
after the point where you disrespected Bud Anderson


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
One thing is for sure. We have spent the entire afternoon basically beating our keyboards into submission and for really no good reason. Agreed?
Nope, I went shopping, worked on my jeep a little and have flown a few sorties online to boot

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
Does putting your flaps on a slider in a Spit really help that much?

In order to use them without breaking the airplane you have to fly really slow.

Getting slow in combat isn't my idea of a good time, more like suicide.

Using full flaps is agreed, making you way too slow. However, the slider allows you you to essentially deploy combat flap setting in a crate that didn't have it.

DKoor
02-04-2007, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Akronnick:
Does putting your flaps on a slider in a Spit really help that much?

In order to use them without breaking the airplane you have to fly really slow.

Getting slow in combat isn't my idea of a good time, more like suicide.

Using full flaps is agreed, making you way too slow. However, the slider allows you you to essentially deploy combat flap setting in a crate that didn't have it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Cajun I never did that... but does that means that I wont jam the flaps on Spitfire? I mean in some "mid-position"?

If I can jam the flaps I don't see the practical worth of this, simply because Spitfire turns really too good even without flaps, and even if someone can find practical use of it, couldn't it be possible to constantly press "F" and "V" thus keeping them constantly in "mid-position"?
Moreover I think that RL Spitfire pilots could keep it in "mid-position" this way, so it wont be unhistorical... the true question is how often they did that?

I'm asking all this because although I spent 5 years in this game I never really exploited game in this manner. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BillyTheKid_22
02-04-2007, 03:02 PM
http://www.zonaplayer.com/page/altre/images/wallpaper_true_crime_streets_of_la_04_1280x960.jpg


Trust me!!! No Cheating!!!

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Defending? One could look at it this way.
What other way could you look at it? I mean you said did say..


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage. It required knob turning and adjustment, even fine adjustments. Therefore, a pilot with his hand on the throttle and stick hoping to God he can take the enemy out before he gets it is not thinking about trim.
Fist mistake there was you included ALL OF US in your statement when you said "We all know"!

As if we all agreed with you and there was no question about it! You than proceeded to describe how impossible it was! Even though Bud Anderson says it is as easy and turing the radio knob while driving a car.

Even after reisen52 and I showed you how wrong you were by telling you what real WWII pilots had to say about it you wouldnt admit you could be wrong!

You know the thing you ASK ANYONE TO SHOW YOU IF YOU WERE!

You than proceeded to defend your position by disregarding what Bud Anderson had to say!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
One could look at it as the opening for intelligent discussion.
up until the point where you disrespected Bud Anderson


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
You decided to come in guns blazing.
after the point where you disrespected Bud Anderson


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
One thing is for sure. We have spent the entire afternoon basically beating our keyboards into submission and for really no good reason. Agreed?
Nope, I went shopping, worked on my jeep a little and have flown a few sorties online to boot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I did my kids laundry and a clean install of SH3/GWX. OK, not such a waste after all.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 03:09 PM
Ok, so for the record:

Trim on a slider=not a cheat.
Flaps on a slider=possible cheat on aircraft that did not the availability to move flaps other than in preset increments.

Anyone?

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Akronnick:
Does putting your flaps on a slider in a Spit really help that much?

In order to use them without breaking the airplane you have to fly really slow.

Getting slow in combat isn't my idea of a good time, more like suicide.

Using full flaps is agreed, making you way too slow. However, the slider allows you you to essentially deploy combat flap setting in a crate that didn't have it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Cajun I never did that... but does that means that I wont jam the flaps on Spitfire? I mean in some "mid-position"?

If I can jam the flaps I don't see the practical worth of this, simply because Spitfire turns really too good even without flaps, and even if someone can find practical use of it, couldn't it be possible to constantly press "F" and "V" thus keeping them constantly in "mid-position"?
Moreover I think that RL Spitfire pilots could keep it in "mid-position" this way, so it wont be unhistorical... the true question is how often they did that?

I'm asking all this because although I spent 5 years in this game I never really exploited game in this manner. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you can jam the flaps like any other a/c if you deploy them at too high a speed for the given flap angle, and I suppose one could dribble the Flap Up and Down keys too, but the slider could let you hold it wherever you want, in a position that the real a/c couldn't maintain in real life. Spitfire IRL turned so well at times the pilot needed to push the stick forward at times to keep from over steer. Not sure sure which version, or it ever got fixed: I read here on the forums, I think it was an article posted.

LStarosta
02-04-2007, 03:15 PM
You guys are funnier than reflective belts over BDUs.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
You guys are funnier than reflective belts over BDUs.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
You guys are funnier than reflective belts over BDUs.

Wait until you're in an exercise and they want you to act like it's real, but insist on the reflective belt. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's stranger than a parachute designed to open on impact with the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
You guys are funnier than reflective belts over BDUs.

Wait until you're in an exercise and they want you to act like it's real, but insist on the reflective belt. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's stranger than a parachute designed to open on impact with the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For best results, deploy near dirt.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-04-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Ok, so for the record:

Trim on a slider=not a cheat.
Flaps on a slider=possible cheat on aircraft that did not the availability to move flaps other than in preset increments.

Anyone?

That's my take http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Bearcat99
02-04-2007, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I believe the issue is this:
We all know that during the actual fighting in WW2 the last thing on the pilots mind was trim adjustment to get advantage.

Bud Anderson a pilot with some sucess would disagree with you.


"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe."

"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one.

Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going to quote this same excerpt from To Fly and Fight.... Anderson was not the only one either... Bud Fortier, many of the Airmen I have met, and many other pilot accounts I have read.

AFAIC.. if it is a feature that is available to anyone then it isnt a cheat. Or even an exploit. A cheat is something that will give you an edge that others don't have and cannot get... unless they know what you know (about hacking the code etc) ... or have the files you have (as in mods). If someone else has better equipment than me then thats my problem. Since the trim on an axis is available to anyone with a pot to spare then it is in no way even an exploit. It is a feature of the sim that is used in one of the ways available.

Make no mistake about it..... in combat if spitting would have helped it would have been used. Trim is a feature that was available on many combat aircraft in WWII.... you can bet that when ones life was on the line they used whatever they could. If anyone thinks different then they are either stupid, naive or some combination of the two.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 06:37 PM
@Bearcat

Question on the trim. What this tought in flight school or was it a hand full of the best pilots that used trim in combat engagements? Something these aces found out works in real time engagement.

Bearcat99
02-04-2007, 06:45 PM
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Bearcat99
02-04-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Akronnick:
Does putting your flaps on a slider in a Spit really help that much?

In order to use them without breaking the airplane you have to fly really slow.

Getting slow in combat isn't my idea of a good time, more like suicide.

Using full flaps is agreed, making you way too slow. However, the slider allows you you to essentially deploy combat flap setting in a crate that didn't have it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No matter.... since it is still something that anyone with an extra pot can do.. it isn't a cheat. Period. Not only that, it comes with it's own set of consequences. If flaps on a slider prevented them from jamming then I could see it being an exploit at least... but it doesn't. Flaps on a slider becomes almost like the manual prop pitch on a 109. Use it wrong and pay the price..... become a sitting duck. IMO the fact that it becomes something that you have to learn to master makes it worth while. There are many features on this sim that I would like to see improved and I hope they are more realistic in BoB... from engine start to CEM.... superchartger and fuel mixture settings on American planes though automatic was manually adjustable.. it isn't in here... but what is available IMO is flexible enough to keep it interesting.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Ok, so for the record:
Trim on a slider=not a cheat.
Flaps on a slider=possible cheat on aircraft that did not the availability to move flaps other than in preset increments.
Anyone?

Still your opinion.. For the record?
Trim on a slider was never a cheat... IMO but especially after it was altered a few patches back. The same with prop pitch....

Flaps? Many WWII combat aircraft had more than the 4 flap settings available in the sim... The P-51 had 6. 0,10,20,30,40 & 50 degrees of flaps.... and again... if it is available to anyone with pots to spare then it isn't a cheat... it is a feature... one that can be either used or not used, and either way will still need to be applied correctly in order to get a real benefit from it.

Cajun76
02-04-2007, 07:32 PM
Actually, never called it a "cheat" per se, but it allows someone to do something the designers didn't envision, it improves the turnrate, and it's unhistorical. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should, imho.

I try not to "game the game", and try to emulate real flying as much as possible. So much so that I've been asked if I fly with my pit on in pit off servers before. I don't, but I try not to pull maneuvers that would be "gamey", like some of these guys who throw the stick forward and to the left or right, doing extreme neg G barrel rolls when your on their high six. Sure it's possible in the game no matter what settings you're flying, but for me it starts to degrade the simulation feeling when someone treats it like Ace Combat (good series, btw) and gets away with it.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 07:34 PM
@Bearcat

The reason I ask on the trim, it seems that the controls for trimming would be in better engineered spot. Some planes it seems to be there. Others it seems to be an inconvience while in combat. Just awkward spots for placement of them although they were probably reaching just for one. No doubt that when something work out of the norm it was passed on. What I can not find is a more information on it when I search.

Your outlook on both the trim and flap issue are darn good and well explained! Then again, your answers usually are!

As far as asking me if it is still my opinion of flap/trim as a cheat. Nope. I have seen the light.

AVGWarhawk
02-04-2007, 07:37 PM
This brings me to the next question. Concerning online play. Do you(or anyone) believe that online dogfighting seems somewhat unrealistic? IMHO it does to me. Coops with AI seem more realistic to me(with exception of some AI behavior).

AKA_TAGERT
02-04-2007, 07:38 PM
your welcome

MrMojok
02-04-2007, 08:11 PM
You master debators can say what ever you want.

I have had flaps on a slider ever since I got my X52, and I always will have flaps on a slider. Playing online, offline, I don't care.

Don't like it? Too bad.

BillyTheKid_22
02-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
You master debators can say what ever you want.

I have had flaps on a slider ever since I got my X52, and I always will have flaps on a slider. Playing online, offline, I don't care.

Don't like it? Too bad.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RedDeth
02-04-2007, 09:14 PM
trim on a slider is not a cheat. it is not an exploit. it is using your game. period.

but there are cheats. there are hacks. the speed hack is basically the only cheat. and anyone here that says in five years they never saw a hack or cheat is lying or is not a good pilot. yep i said it.


speed hack has to be stopped by the server with tight settings. if not then you can cheat and easily. and i have seen it many times. ive seen my old squad test the cheating so as to know if it is used against them. and yes it is wild. speed up the game to fly away from you super fast or slow the game down to make you overshoot. and it can be done in increments so tiny that you cannot tell for sure. thus they have tight server settings available. you can cheat. and get away with it.

ive seen it plenty of times. ive been flying this since beta.

dont talk about no cheating. it is there. it is available it is speed hack and it is still here as long as the hosting server has loose settings which 95 percent of servers do.

its REAL.

AND YES TOURNAMENT ONLINE FLYING TEAMS USE IT.

so tighten up your settings.


if you see a plane spurt out a ways and there is no lag... chance is that is speed hack. and if a plane stutters and you overshoot them...and there are loose settings...they just used speed hack to make you over shoot.


say what you will but saying cheating is non existant like most guys on this thread is stupid and a lie.

its real. but it is also about one in ten thousand pilots that does it. and the pilot that cheats... aint on comms.... j

fyi

BillyTheKid_22
02-04-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
trim on a slider is not a cheat. it is not an exploit. it is using your game. period.

but there are cheats. there are hacks. the speed hack is basically the only cheat. and anyone here that says in five years they never saw a hack or cheat is lying or is not a good pilot. yep i said it.


speed hack has to be stopped by the server with tight settings. if not then you can cheat and easily. and i have seen it many times. ive seen my old squad test the cheating so as to know if it is used against them. and yes it is wild. speed up the game to fly away from you super fast or slow the game down to make you overshoot. and it can be done in increments so tiny that you cannot tell for sure. thus they have tight server settings available. you can cheat. and get away with it.

ive seen it plenty of times. ive been flying this since beta.

dont talk about no cheating. it is there. it is available it is speed hack and it is still here as long as the hosting server has loose settings which 95 percent of servers do.

its REAL.

AND YES TOURNAMENT ONLINE FLYING TEAMS USE IT.

so tighten up your settings.


if you see a plane spurt out a ways and there is no lag... chance is that is speed hack. and if a plane stutters and you overshoot them...and there are loose settings...they just used speed hack to make you over shoot.


say what you will but saying cheating is non existant like most guys on this thread is stupid and a lie.

its real. but it is also about one in ten thousand pilots that does it. and the pilot that cheats... aint on comms.... j

fyi


I am not stuiped!!!! No trouble!!!

Freelancer-1
02-04-2007, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:


but there are cheats. there are hacks. the speed hack is basically the only cheat. and anyone here that says in five years they never saw a hack or cheat is lying or is not a good pilot. yep i said it.


speed hack has to be stopped by the server with tight settings. if not then you can cheat and easily. and i have seen it many times. ive seen my old squad test the cheating so as to know if it is used against them. and yes it is wild. speed up the game to fly away from you super fast or slow the game down to make you overshoot. and it can be done in increments so tiny that you cannot tell for sure. thus they have tight server settings available. you can cheat. and get away with it.



Hi RedDeth

I'm surprised it took someone so long to post about speed hacks, but it has to be brought up in any discussion on cheating.

I'm also surprised Slickstick hasn't jumped in here yet. He is the go-to guy when you need info on cheats, hacks and sloppy server settings in this game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Davinci..
02-04-2007, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
trim on a slider is not a cheat. it is not an exploit. it is using your game. period.

but there are cheats. there are hacks. the speed hack is basically the only cheat. and anyone here that says in five years they never saw a hack or cheat is lying or is not a good pilot. yep i said it.


speed hack has to be stopped by the server with tight settings. if not then you can cheat and easily. and i have seen it many times. ive seen my old squad test the cheating so as to know if it is used against them. and yes it is wild. speed up the game to fly away from you super fast or slow the game down to make you overshoot. and it can be done in increments so tiny that you cannot tell for sure. thus they have tight server settings available. you can cheat. and get away with it.

ive seen it plenty of times. ive been flying this since beta.

dont talk about no cheating. it is there. it is available it is speed hack and it is still here as long as the hosting server has loose settings which 95 percent of servers do.

its REAL.

AND YES TOURNAMENT ONLINE FLYING TEAMS USE IT.

so tighten up your settings.


if you see a plane spurt out a ways and there is no lag... chance is that is speed hack. and if a plane stutters and you overshoot them...and there are loose settings...they just used speed hack to make you over shoot.


say what you will but saying cheating is non existant like most guys on this thread is stupid and a lie.

its real. but it is also about one in ten thousand pilots that does it. and the pilot that cheats... aint on comms.... j

fyi

Dose anyone?? or has anyone ever had any actual proof of this??
Like im not talking about, you know a guy who knows a guy that uses it(or you know squad mates that claim to use it).. Like actually seen the file or whatever the hell it is...

Any one?? ever??

cuz im just not buying it.. I've been flying since the original il2 as well, and i've just never seen anything like a speed hack.. To me the worst thing about cheating, is that it give others a reason for why they failed.. Cuz then they have an excuse for why they got shot down.. Anything other then, they were out flown buy a better pilot.. Cuz lets face it, some people just dont want to(or refuse to) hear it..
And im not talking about just il2, but almost any online game.. there is as much cheat accusation as there is actual cheating. And that is half the problem.

You need only watch 1 track of an il2 air race to see, some people just arent as good at getting speed out of thier planes as others. And i'd bet good money, that is whats happening 99.9% of the time someone "sees" a "speed hack".

Tully__
02-05-2007, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Davinci..:
Dose anyone?? or has anyone ever had any actual proof of this??
Like im not talking about, you know a guy who knows a guy that uses it(or you know squad mates that claim to use it).. Like actually seen the file or whatever the hell it is...

Any one?? ever??

cuz im just not buying it.. I've been flying since the original il2 as well, and i've just never seen anything like a speed hack.. To me the worst thing about cheating, is that it give others a reason for why they failed.. Cuz then they have an excuse for why they got shot down.. Anything other then, they were out flown buy a better pilot.. Cuz lets face it, some people just dont want to(or refuse to) hear it..
And im not talking about just il2, but almost any online game.. there is as much cheat accusation as there is actual cheating. And that is half the problem.

You need only watch 1 track of an il2 air race to see, some people just arent as good at getting speed out of thier planes as others. And i'd bet good money, that is whats happening 99.9% of the time someone "sees" a "speed hack".
It's there. As RedDeth said, it's been tested by a couple of squads and the game creator Oleg Maddox has publicly stated that some of the server checks were added to the game specifically to combat this method of cheating. Also as RedDeth said, very few actually attempt to use it even in servers where the settings are not set up to prevent it, so it's entirely possible that you've never seen it.

LEXX_Luthor
02-05-2007, 04:41 AM
Cajun::
Now, for the elevator exploit, it used to be that it was used to turn tighter than just turning without it. Maybe the reduction in stick force was modeled, or it allowed more deflection of the elevator, whatever it seems to have gone away. Used to see it a lot, now I don't. The trim delay supposedly took care of it.
That trim delay may have been required to prevent Online cheating, but it also crippled the simulation of realistic and historical elevator trim use. We saw Oleg Maddox as willing to sacrifice flight models and sacrifice paying customers for "cheat free" Online shooting gameplay which offers no funding for further simulation development. More interesting were the Online players who applauded the crippling of flight models while claiming to be for Realism(tm) and accusing others players, Offline players and Online players, who desired functioning elevator trim of being Arcade(tm) or being Cheaters(tm). The episode proves that preserving "gameplay" is the most important goal in Online computer game design, and crippling realistic flight models is done in the name of "realism." Such is the Psycho webboard behavior of the Online computer gaming world.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-05-2007, 04:57 AM
Christ, didn't realize this was such a touchy subject.

If you couldn't deploy flaps in said plane to an incremental value (note: there is close to 300 flyables...some WITHOUT COMBAT FLAPS {not trim, flaps}) and you have it assigned to some sort of device that allows you to get ahistoric performance out of said plane then you are "gaming the game"

TIR=not cheat/exploit
Trim on a slider=not cheat/exploit

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-05-2007, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Bearcat

Question on the trim. What this tought in flight school or was it a hand full of the best pilots that used trim in combat engagements? Something these aces found out works in real time engagement.

What is the difference how many used it? If one guy used it then that is enough to justify its use in the sim. If it was only the vets in real life that used it and the rookies did not then that would also hold true to this sim wouldnt it?

whiteladder
02-05-2007, 07:14 AM
allows you to get ahistoric performance out of said plane then you are "gaming the game"

But couldn`t that be said of any control that you map to a modern joystick/ throttle combination? Some of them may not give a performance increase as such but the ablity to change mixture setting, supercharger setting, proppitch, radiator settings etc, etc all without taking you hands of the the throttle/stick do mean you don`t need to look away from the gunsight a critical moment.

When were hotas controls developed late 60`s early 70`s?

If you wanted to be a real anorak about it (and personally I don`t)you could argue that if you have anything other than triger, push to talk and maybe a control for altering the gunsight size on your joystick you are "gaming the game"?

RCAF_Irish_403
02-05-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Bearcat

Question on the trim. What this tought in flight school or was it a hand full of the best pilots that used trim in combat engagements? Something these aces found out works in real time engagement.

What is the difference how many used it? If one guy used it then that is enough to justify its use in the sim. If it was only the vets in real life that used it and the rookies did not then that would also hold true to this sim wouldnt it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder how much of this comes down to situational overload.....to many things to keep track of in a confusing and scary situation.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-05-2007, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> allows you to get ahistoric performance out of said plane then you are "gaming the game"

But couldn`t that be said of any control that you map to a modern joystick/ throttle combination? Some of them may not give a performance increase as such but the ablity to change mixture setting, supercharger setting, proppitch, radiator settings etc, etc all without taking you hands of the the throttle/stick do mean you don`t need to look away from the gunsight a critical moment.

When were hotas controls developed late 60`s early 70`s?

If you wanted to be a real anorak about it (and personally I don`t)you could argue that if you have anything other than triger, push to talk and maybe a control for altering the gunsight size on your joystick you are "gaming the game"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course you can get anal retentive about this, but we are talking about an <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">ahistoric</span> performance edge.

mapping my fuel mix control to a flight stick button doesn't make the plane perform different

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
That trim delay may have been required to prevent Online cheating, but it also crippled the simulation of realistic and historical elevator trim use. We saw Oleg Maddox as willing to sacrifice flight models and sacrifice paying customers for "cheat free" Online shooting gameplay which offers no funding for further simulation development. More interesting were the Online players who applauded the crippling of flight models while claiming to be for Realism(tm) and accusing others players, Offline players and Online players, who desired functioning elevator trim of being Arcade(tm) or being Cheaters(tm). The episode proves that preserving "gameplay" is the most important goal in Online computer game design, and crippling realistic flight models is done in the name of "realism." Such is the Psycho webboard behavior of the Online computer gaming world.
Disagree 100%

Adding trim delay does not change, let alone sacrifice the flight models at all! In that trim is not part of the flight model! It is an input to the flight model, but not part of it.

Adding delay actually makes the sim more realistic in that RL pilots could NOT adj the trim from min to max in a second! Which is what sim pilot can do with a slider.

By adding delay it mimics (aka simulates) the time it would have taken a RL pilot to spin a trim wheel.

Note this is not to suggest that it was hard to do in real life! Just that it was not instantaneous! As Bud Anderson said, it was as 'hard' as turning the dial on a radio while driving a car. Meaing you didnt have to take your eyes off the road to do it let alone look for the knob! It became 2nd nature after awhile.

whiteladder
02-05-2007, 07:34 AM
Performance edge agreed maybe not but a combat edge definately.

I can change my mixture settinges in game while at the same time looking over my right shoulder to check somebody isn`t about to jump me, whereas historically I would probable have to divert my attention away from what is going on outside the cockpit, find the control and make the necessary adjustment then return to searching for bogeys.

Don`t get me wrong I`m not advocating you shouldn`t have these controls mapped, just that I think its odd to single one thing out when anything other than the controls I mentioned is ahistorical to have at your finger tips and does give you a advantage that historically wasn`t there.

GenSwat
02-05-2007, 07:38 AM
Well over the years of flying I have heard,
trim on a slider, flaps on a slider, and . printscreen... all those that I heard were suspects , none of them could fly worth a ****...

For what I seen the first person to call you cheat you must hack...

I got 3 words for you.. YOU JUST SUCK....

plain and simple there is allways someone better then you ,tactics vary pilot to pilot...

I promote you to use cheats to kill me, cause when you fail, I just LOL all the way home rtb...

far as print screen it has been limited to a certain amount of time you can click on print screen between printscreen, and I even heard to many printscreen will get you pingkicked/crash game... Dont know 100% cause I never tried to use it other then getting a screenshot of a damaged plane I shot down...

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-05-2007, 07:38 AM
I can change my mixture settinges in game while at the same time looking over my right shoulder to check somebody isn`t about to jump me, whereas historically I would probable have to divert my attention away from what is going on outside the cockpit, find the control and make the necessary adjustment then return to searching for bogeys.

Once again you are assuming. Can you make an adjustment to your car radio and still watch the road? If you know where something is and you have done it hundreds of time you really dont need to look do you? The same would hold true to a fighter pilot. Situational awareness and the ability to multi task is a requirement for any pilot.

LStarosta
02-05-2007, 07:42 AM
TIR is cheating. How can you just tilt your head 10 degrees to look behind yourself in the cockpit? Cheators.



LoL

Knewbs.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
I can change my mixture settinges in game while at the same time looking over my right shoulder to check somebody isn`t about to jump me, whereas historically I would probable have to divert my attention away from what is going on outside the cockpit, find the control and make the necessary adjustment then return to searching for bogeys.
You dont give yourself much credit! Bud Anderson said adj trim was as easy as turning the radio knob while drivng a car! Now Im sure he didnt mean the two knobs required the same amout of strengh when he said HARD! What he ment by HARD is how much mental att it required of him to do it. Now I have a new truck, I have only been driving it for about 4 months and I can tell you that I can change the radio dial without taking my eyes off the road. I'm sure most people could!

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
TIR is cheating. How can you just tilt your head 10 degrees to look behind yourself in the cockpit? Cheators.
Im sorry.. did you say something? All I see is blue and tan! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can change my mixture settinges in game while at the same time looking over my right shoulder to check somebody isn`t about to jump me, whereas historically I would probable have to divert my attention away from what is going on outside the cockpit, find the control and make the necessary adjustment then return to searching for bogeys.

Once again you are assuming. Can you make an adjustment to your car radio and still watch the road? If you know where something is and you have done it hundreds of time you really dont need to look do you? The same would hold true to a fighter pilot. Situational awareness and the ability to multi task is a requirement for any pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Whoops! You beat me to it! S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

whiteladder
02-05-2007, 08:03 AM
Once again you are assuming


Yes I assumimg that aircraft designers that developed real Hotas controls were solving a problem that really existed for real fighter pilots and that the inclusion of said controls gives them a benefit that was not there for some of their historical forebears.

While it is fair to say that many of the modern hotas controls in real aircraft are designed to control complex avionics systems, the management of a piston engine can be a least as involved. I`m sure that some flyers in ww2 didn`t need to look away to perform simple functions, I`m also sure that some did, because of cockpit layout etc. Therefore I stand by my statement.

I could for example map the manual gear control in the wildcat to a throttle button, where as my historical counterpart would definately have to take a hand off the throttle to wind the handle.

I don`t need to look away from the road to adjust my radio, because the desingers of the car I drive have recognise the dangers of people doing this and provided the car with "hotas" controls for the radio! I therefore have a potential advantage over a road user who may need to look away from the road, expecially when they inadverantly hit the classic fm button insteaded of the channel they intended

willyvic
02-05-2007, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Davinci..:

Dose anyone?? or has anyone ever had any actual proof of this??
Like im not talking about, you know a guy who knows a guy that uses it(or you know squad mates that claim to use it).. Like actually seen the file or whatever the hell it is...

Any one?? ever??

cuz im just not buying it.. I've been flying since the original il2 as well, and i've just never seen anything like a speed hack.. To me the worst thing about cheating, is that it give others a reason for why they failed.. Cuz then they have an excuse for why they got shot down.. Anything other then, they were out flown buy a better pilot.. Cuz lets face it, some people just dont want to(or refuse to) hear it..
And im not talking about just il2, but almost any online game.. there is as much cheat accusation as there is actual cheating. And that is half the problem.

You need only watch 1 track of an il2 air race to see, some people just arent as good at getting speed out of thier planes as others. And i'd bet good money, that is whats happening 99.9% of the time someone "sees" a "speed hack".

Perhaps this will enlighten you. Just pop it in your record folder and have a peek.


http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/speedhack.zip

WV

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
Yes I assumimg that aircraft designers that developed real Hotas controls were solving a problem that really existed for real fighter pilots and that the inclusion of said controls gives them a benefit that was not there for some of their historical forebears.

While it is fair to say that many of the modern hotas controls in real aircraft are designed to control complex avionics systems, the management of a piston engine can be a least as involved. I`m sure that some flyers in ww2 didn`t need to look away to perform simple functions, I`m also sure that some did, because of cockpit layout etc. Therefore I stand by my statement.

I could for example map the manual gear control in the wildcat to a throttle button, where as my historical counterpart would definately have to take a hand off the throttle to wind the handle.

I don`t need to look away from the road to adjust my radio, because the desingers of the car I drive have recognise the dangers of people doing this and provided the car with "hotas" controls for the radio! I therefore have a potential advantage over a road user who may need to look away from the road, expecially when they inadverantly hit the classic fm button insteaded of the channel they intended
Allways room for improvement and standardizing things!

But..

That does not change the fact that Bud Anderson considered the NON-HOTAS method to be as easy as turning the radio knob while driving a car.

Besides improving and standardizing another reason(s) for HOTAS was to take into account the high g effects of the JET AGE where moving your hand from one place to another is not easy, That and the addition of more systems in and of itself was the drive behind the HOTAS implimentation. That is to say the modern pilot has alot more systems to deal with than the WWII figher pilot, thus the need to make things even simpler to reduce the input overload.

So yes, no one will disagree that having it all on one stick in one place is better

But..

That does not change the fact that Bud Anderson considered the NON-HOTAS method to be as easy as turning the radio knob while driving a car.

rnzoli
02-05-2007, 09:13 AM
This thread needs more pix http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Something that was so feared, but in fact, had rather little impact on online play. NB. This is an old picture, showing an older version of the game being 'opened up' on someone's PC. (Hint: look at the spelling of the 3.5' disk http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Any idea which part of the world this could be? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I personally don't know of any proof that they could actually re-encode the files to make it on-line compatible again. AFAIK the 6DOF test video was recorded offline. And it's old news, the new runtime check options brought anti-cheat options to a newer level in the meantime. So no IL2 fan will be harmed by showing this after all:
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/SFS_Extractor.jpg

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can change my mixture settinges in game while at the same time looking over my right shoulder to check somebody isn`t about to jump me, whereas historically I would probable have to divert my attention away from what is going on outside the cockpit, find the control and make the necessary adjustment then return to searching for bogeys.

Once again you are assuming. Can you make an adjustment to your car radio and still watch the road? If you know where something is and you have done it hundreds of time you really dont need to look do you? The same would hold true to a fighter pilot. Situational awareness and the ability to multi task is a requirement for any pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed with Havok. I'm gathering this is what made the Aces, Aces. Those that have the ability to go above and beyond. Think outside the box as Bearcat put it.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Agreed with Havok. I'm gathering this is what made the Aces, Aces. Those that have the ability to go above and beyond. WOW!

I need to update my resume!

I forgot to mention that I am ABOVE AND BEYOND the rest because I can turn my radio knob while driving a car

Talk about disrespecting most WWII vets!

Seriously, what did HaVoK say that gave you the impression that HaVoK considered this an Above and Beyond ability?

Quote please!

Because I don't see it!

As a mater of fact I see him saying ANY pilot! i.e.


Originally posted by HaVoK:
Situational awareness and the ability to multi task is a requirement for any pilot.
So what is it that you 'FEEL' your agreeing with?

Something that might help you along those lines is to address what reisen52 said and I have re-quoted several times now in the hopes that it would sink in.

Either it aint sinking in..

Or..

Your avoiding it all togther?

I can understand why you would want to avoid it because if true it would take all the wind out of your sails with regards to this ability being something the average pilot could not do. i.e.


Originally posted by reisen52 :
<span class="ev_code_yellow">"inability to maintain trim is a turn was one of the first washout criteria in US WWII flight schools"</span>
Just encase you missed the point.. again. The point is IF you could not 'pass' flight school by being able to adj trim while making a turn, how would you not be able to do it once you become a pilot?

Ok folks.. place your bets! How much you want to be that AVGWarhawk ignores that statement for the 5th time?

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 12:07 PM
There was no sarcasm at all in that reply. Such a shame that you can get that idea. But that is OK. For some reason you feel it is OK to continue on. Sadly, you seem to be looking to find flaw. Again, Sir this is not an open forum to continue unwarranted attack.

Anyway, I was responding to the multi-tasking for pilots and the ability to do it that makes them aces. You can read my post however you like. Furthermore Bearcat and I had brief conversation about it thus I mention outside the box as Bearcat put it. I really do not know what gives with you. It is certainly disturbing.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
There was no sarcasm at all in that reply.
Oh yes there was! In that unlike you I honestly believe that most people are capable of adj the radio knob while driving. Or, are you confused and under the false impression that I was saying your reply contained sarcasm? If so, than you are wrong! I do believe that you believe most people can NOT adj the radio knob while driving.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Such a shame that you can get that idea.
Ah, so you are confused and think that I was saying your reply contained sarcasm


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
But that is OK.
I don't know about OK, but at least your consistent in your confusion


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
For some reason you feel it is OK to continue on.
For the same reason you feel it is OK to continue on, or are you under the false impression that in an open forum you are the only one that can give his opinion on something and that no one can have an opinion of your opinion? If so your wrong again! That is the whole idea behind an open forum! If you can not stand to have someone question your opinion than you should not post one in the first place.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Sadly, you seem to be looking to find flaw.
Not looking, FOUND! The flaw being that you think it takes a special person (Above and Beyond) to be able to adj the radio knob while drivng a car. That flaw stems from your inability to respond to what reisen52 said about flight school and your ability to blow off what a WWII ACES said about how things were done in place of your own statement of how things were done. Those two flaws are what cause you to think only a few special people can adj the radio while driving a car.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Again, Sir this is not an open forum to continue unwarranted attack.
Again, Sir you never established an attack the first time you accused me of attacking you, nor have you established one now! Just saying it does not make it true! That kind of false accusation stuff might work where you come from but I find it offensive and kindly ask you to refrane from making such false accusations in the future. Now if there is something I have said that you ˜FEEL' is breaking the forum rules, please QUOTE it and bring it to my att and I assure you I wont do it to you again!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Anyway, I was responding to the multi-tasking for pilots and the ability to do it that makes them aces.
And I was responding to you seeing something that was not there, that being that HaVoK said it takes an ACE (Above and Beyond) to do it! HE DID NOT! He clearly said ANY PILOT!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
You can read my post however you like.
As I already have and you clearly said that it would take someone "Above and Beyond" (ACE) to do what HaVoK said ANY PILOT can do.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Furthermore Bearcat and I had brief conversation about it thus I mention outside the box as Bearcat put it. I really do not know what gives with you. It is certainly disturbing.
I am sure that Bearcat is ˜pleased' to know that you are saying things in the open forum that he thought was just between the two of you. Whoops, I forgot to wrap that in the sarcasm quotes.

PS anyone that placed a bet, betting that AVGWarhawk would ignor reisen52's quote of the flight training school, you have WON and are here by given permission to collect from the people that bet he would address it.

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 01:36 PM
Read it how you like. I really don't care.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Read it how you like. I really don't care. How is it that I just knew you would not be able to provide one example of me attacking you!

But I digress!

Does this mean you will do as I asked and stop making such false acusations in the future?

If so I thank you!

As for our differnces here..

Where you think only an ACE is capable of adj the radio knob while driving a car, and the rest of us (most of us) belive any pilot can adj the radio knob while drivig a car.

I honestly belive you would see it from our point of view by simply addressing reisen52's quote of the flight training school. I think that in the process of replying to it a light will turn on for you!

Give it a go!

What can it hurt?

Or have you alleady done so offline, realied your error, but not able to admit you might have made a mistake?

BOA_Allmenroder
02-05-2007, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.

You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor.

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 02:06 PM
@Tag

Well, first of all "Agreed with Havok". I do not really see the sarcasm here. But that is just me.

Reisen52. I read his quote. I understand it was a requirement after reading it. Bearcat posted his opinion on the issue. He came up with the same thing as Reisen52. He agreed that trim adjustment was used by pilots. I was given two examples. I asked Bearcat if it was taught in flight school. Bearcat was not sure. I can not find anything on it concerning this question. Bearcat opinion was a lot of 'not by the book' flying was tried by pilots and to good effect. This information was passed on to the rookies. At least this is how I read the post.

I looked at Ben Anderson's account. He said it felt awkward but he got accustomed to it after awhile. Then I thought the engineers of the aircraft did not position the controls in a great spot to utilize trim in combat because it was not needed.(conjecture at this point) Ben Anderson's awkward ...what awkward? Awkward in the sense of flying with trim in combat or awkward in location of the trim knobs. I don't know. I see some planes had a great spots for trim usage.

My other thought was did all pilots use trim? As Ben Anderson stated, it was a lot to remember. My thought under heavy combat some might have not, others used it without a thought such as Bud Anderson.

I had seen the light(point) a page ago with Bearcat. Bearcat explained it well and his view on hack/cheat concerning trim/flap.

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 02:24 PM
@Boa,

Very interesting. I did some searching last night on the matter and I did read about relieving pressure by use of trim. I could not find much else on it. But relieving pressure is what Bud Anderson was doing(from what I understand by your post). Still, trim was used in the engagement. I believe this to be discussion. Basically if pilots were turning the trim knobs to gain advantage, either in relieving pressure or making the aircraft perform somewhat better so as to get the kill. You state that trim had to be re-adjusted after the engagement. This would mean the pilot is making adjustments in the engagement. Yes?

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Well, first of all "Agreed with Havok". I do not really see the sarcasm here. But that is just me.
Well that is a good thing in that I never said there was any sarcasm in your agreement with him. I simply pointed out that HaVoK never said what you said you were agreeing with him on!

That being that HaVoK never said it takes an ACE or a Above and Beyond person to adj the trim during a dog fight let alone a turn.

The sarcasm was my addition where I quoted my response to your implication that adj trim during a dog fight or turn does require someone of Above an Beyond abilities (ACE).


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Reisen52. I read his quote. I understand it was a requirement after reading it. Bearcat posted his opinion on the issue. He came up with the same thing as Reisen52. He agreed that trim adjustment was used by pilots. I was given two examples. I asked Bearcat if it was taught in flight school. Bearcat was not sure. I can not find anything on it concerning this question. Bearcat opinion was a lot of 'not by the book' flying was tried by pilots and to good effect. This information was passed on to the rookies. At least this is how I read the post.
So your saying you don't believe reisen52?

Why? Because it conflicts with what you WANT TO BELEVE?

Yet you have no problem picking the ˜DID NOT' part of Bearcat's statement where he said didn't know if they 'DID' or 'DID NOT' teach it in flight school.

Pretty convent the way you pick and chose the things you want to believe in!

But they all pale in comparison of you choosing your sim experience over that of Bud Andersons real life experience! That one still makes me smile each time I think of you sitting there thinking you know better than Bud!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I looked at Ben Anderson's account. He said it felt awkward but he got accustomed to it after awhile. Then I thought the engineers of the aircraft did not position the controls in a great spot to utilize trim in combat because it was not needed.(conjecture at this point) Ben Anderson's awkward ...what awkward? Awkward in the sense of flying with trim in combat or awkward in location of the trim knobs. I don't know. I see some planes had a great spots for trim usage.
You don't know because you quoted Bud Anderson incorrectly! He said AT FIRST it felt awkward! Which is very different than it saying it felt awkward all the time!

Everything feels awkward the first few times you do it!

Take Prom Night for example!

AWKWARD!

But after doing ˜IT' a few times it is no longer awkward! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
My other thought was did all pilots use trim? As Ben Anderson stated, it was a lot to remember.
A lot to remember is a FACT but it says nothing about the frequency of it being used. As and aerospace engineer I have a lot of things to remember from day to day but it does not stop me from doing what needs to be done!

Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
My thought under heavy combat some might have not, others used it without a thought such as Bud Anderson.
So you honestly belive that something that is as simple as adj the radio while drivig a car is easy for one man and imposable for another?

And you had the nerve to accused me of disrespecting WWII vets?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I had seen the light(point) a page ago with Bearcat. Bearcat explained it well and his view on hack/cheat concerning trim/flap.
Which only makes your reply to HaVoK seem even stranger?

PS that is Bud Anderson not Ben! If your going to reference someone, take the time to get their name right!

bjparker
02-05-2007, 03:10 PM
Almost a year ago, I was flying on a Russian server with a pal.

We were chasing a Red fighter, when it disappeared under the sea and suddenly appeared again on our tails! Too long to be simple lag.

I've never flown on that server since.

I may even still have the track.

bjparker

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Well, first of all "Agreed with Havok". I do not really see the sarcasm here. But that is just me.
Well that is a good thing in that I never said there was any sarcasm in your agreement with him. I simply pointed out that HaVoK never said what you said you were agreeing with him on! That being that HaVoK never said it takes an ACE or a Above and Beyond person to adj the trim during a dog fight let alone a turn.

The sarcasm was my addition where I quoted my response to your implication that it adj trim during a dog fight or turn does require someone of Above an Beyond abilities (ACE).


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Reisen52. I read his quote. I understand it was a requirement after reading it. Bearcat posted his opinion on the issue. He came up with the same thing as Reisen52. He agreed that trim adjustment was used by pilots. I was given two examples. I asked Bearcat if it was taught in flight school. Bearcat was not sure. I can not find anything on it concerning this question. Bearcat opinion was a lot of 'not by the book' flying was tried by pilots and to good effect. This information was passed on to the rookies. At least this is how I read the post.
So your saying you don't believe reisen52 because it conflicts with your believe system but are more than happy to pick the ˜DID NOT' part of Bearcat's statement that he didn't know if they DID or DID NOT teach it in flight school.

Pretty convent the way you pick and chose the things you want to believe in!

But they all pale in comparison of you choosing your sim experience over that of Bud Andersons real life experience! That one still makes me smile each time I think of you sitting there thinking you know better than Bud!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I looked at Ben Anderson's account. He said it felt awkward but he got accustomed to it after awhile. Then I thought the engineers of the aircraft did not position the controls in a great spot to utilize trim in combat because it was not needed.(conjecture at this point) Ben Anderson's awkward ...what awkward? Awkward in the sense of flying with trim in combat or awkward in location of the trim knobs. I don't know. I see some planes had a great spots for trim usage. You don't know because you quoted Bud Anderson incorrectly! He said AT FIRST it felt awkward! Which is very different than it saying it felt awkward all the time!

Everything feels awkward the first few times you do it!

Take Prom Night for example!

AWKWARD!

But after doing ˜IT' a few times it is no longer awkward! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
My other thought was did all pilots use trim? As Ben Anderson stated, it was a lot to remember.
A lot to remember is a FACT but it says nothing about the frequency of it being used. As and aerospace engineer I have a lot of things to remember from day to day but it does not stop me from doing what needs to be done!

Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
My thought under heavy combat some might have not, others used it without a thought such as Bud Anderson.
So you honestly belive that something that is as simple as adj the radio while drivig a car is easy for one man and imposable for another?

And you had the nerve to accused me of disrespecting WWII vets?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I had seen the light(point) a page ago with Bearcat. Bearcat explained it well and his view on hack/cheat concerning trim/flap.
Which only makes your reply to HaVoK seem even stranger?

PS that is Bud Anderson not Ben! If your going to reference someone, take the time to get their name right! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're impossible and I really do not think any answer provided will satisfy. I did what you asked in a previous post. I can not continue with you because if has turned into a you did that and said that. Not really really getting anywhere. Only an attempt to make you point the correct point. I said I see the light OK? Furthermore, you said you don't see how a mechanic or a B-17 pilot(being my Uncles) have any say when they were standing by these aircraft and talking with pilots. Furthermore B-17's were not just handed over. Flight training in single engine aircraft was done. Trim was used. He might have some valid things to say about it. But you think not. That was the disrespect. You fail to see that. As far as awkward, was reaching for the trim wheel awkward or using it. That was my question.Nowhere did I say it felt awkward all the time. There is nothing strange on my answer to Havok. I agreed. My statement was saying some pilots were the best of the best and utililzed all they had to great affect. I do not see the sarcasm here.

Furthermore, I would hope you would remember everything being a Aerospace Engineer. Now try to remember everything when a FW190/ME109 is looking to shoot you down. Much different senerio. My thought here, in the heat of battle, under great stress did some pilots not trim? That is all. Nothing more.

BOA_Allmenroder
02-05-2007, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Boa,

Very interesting. I did some searching last night on the matter and I did read about relieving pressure by use of trim. I could not find much else on it. But relieving pressure is what Bud Anderson was doing(from what I understand by your post). Still, trim was used in the engagement. I believe this to be discussion. Basically if pilots were turning the trim knobs to gain advantage, either in relieving pressure or making the aircraft perform somewhat better so as to get the kill. You state that trim had to be re-adjusted after the engagement. This would mean the pilot is making adjustments in the engagement. Yes?

Yes I agree he does state using trim. What's missing is what he was using it for. Thus, I have fallen back upon my own real life flight experience and the need to trim. I suspect, although he doesn't say directly, he was trimming the elevator since, in a high g turn, the elevator has the most force on it as you attempt to maintain a nose high position (maintain your altitude); simultaneously you're pullin just a bit harder to get a gunnery angle. So, you release the throttle (since you're power is set) and your trim away the forward pressure on the stick (which also helps you maintain a good sight picture).

But, using trim on the elevator, does not increase the turn rate. Nor does using rudder trim, it just relieves the force against which you must hold the control.

AVGWarhawk
02-05-2007, 05:51 PM
@BOA

Ok, what your saying then once in the high G his stick was getting heavy with pressure, he trimmed to get the pressure off, made his shot,leveled off and re-trimmed? If this is the case and staying on topic, as Bearcat said a few posts back that trimming is a feature. Trimming is very real in dynamic flight even in heavy combat situations. Then I can only deduce that trimming is not a cheat/hack.

Thanks for your input! I appreciate it.

waffen-79
02-05-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
TIR is cheating. How can you just tilt your head 10 degrees to look behind yourself in the cockpit? Cheators.



LoL

Knewbs.

Agree 110%

Lemky
02-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Well said GenSwat,you shaved my Butt many times and I can say That I really Suck.But still Lots of Fun.
Cheers
Cheating not there, their is allways somebody better,Fly with them and Learn the art

LStarosta
02-05-2007, 08:11 PM
Furthermore if you vulch, you are a cheator knewb.

Cajun76
02-05-2007, 08:13 PM
I think folks might be getting the wrong impression here. Bud used trim constantly as the a/c speed up and slowed down. Sounds to me like he would reduce his elevator stick force constantly as his speed and turn changed, trimming up and down as required. It doesn't sound like he trimmed into a turn, and then when the turn was all over, he reset it. He did it on the fly, as it happened, and it became as natural and easy as turning a radio knob, or shifting gears, if I might add. Awkward at first, instinctive and natural with experience.


"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim</span> , which is easier to do than describe."

" <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with.</span> They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat .</span> . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

reisen52
02-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
I think folks might be getting the wrong impression here. Bud used trim constantly as the a/c speed up and slowed down. Sounds to me like he would reduce his elevator stick force constantly as his speed and turn changed, trimming up and down as required.

You are correct it is a never ending process, if speed changes the trim requirement also changes.

There is some interesting detail on trim in "Air Warriors: The making of a Navy Pilot"

It follows some candidates through the two year process to become a Naval Aviator.

Although these are pretty modern USN aircraft up to & including the fly by wire F/A-18 Super Hornet trim is talked about in paragraph or page level discussions on pages - 150-152, 158,171,182, 200, 212, 215, 229, 238-239, 399, 431. Its not a trivial issue.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
You're impossible
Impossible?

How so?

Let me guess.. Your definition of being impossible is someone who calls you on your false accusation of someone attacking you?

You know someone that won't just bend over and let you accuse then of saying things they never said!

Is that your definition?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I did what you asked in a previous post.
Yes you finally addressed reisen52's quote about Flight Training, Your answer got me thinking acn caused me to ask more questions. That is what you said you wanted right? An intelligent discussion on the topic at hand?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I can not continue with you because if has turned into a you did that and said that.
Which would be upsetting if I said you did or said something you didn't do. You know like accusing someone of attacking you, stuff like that. But in light of the fact that you did not bring up any specifics of me saying you did or said something you did not I can only assume that you are once again accusing me of something I did not do.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Not really really getting anywhere.
Well considering it took me about 6 pages to get you to address reisen52s quote it is not surprising! If you would pick up the pace this might get somewhere!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Only an attempt to make you point the correct point.
Hardly in that I never said my point of view is the correct one! I just presented my opinions of why I think it is the correct one. Where as you have presenting nothing to support your opinion.. Unless you consider saying most WWII pilots were not smart enough to turn a radio knob while driving a car as presenting something? I personally find that pretty insulting to most WWII pilots!


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I said I see the light OK?
Which was followed by your reply to HaVoK where you implied that only ACES were capable of adj the radio knob while driving a car. Thus it sounded like you might have forgotten you saw the light and needed a reminder?


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Furthermore, you said you don't see how a mechanic or a B-17 pilot (being my Uncles) have any say when they were standing by these aircraft and talking with pilots.
Nice try spin doctor but that is a lie and you know it! I know your trying to paint me as being disrespectful to WWII vets but that is a lie too! To refresh your memory and debunk your weak attempt to paint me as being disrespectful to your uncle here is what I actually said


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Well I don't see how a mechanic who worked on ships or a B17 bomber pilot who flew bombers 'opinion' of how WWII Fighter Pilots might have flown would be taken <span class="ev_code_yellow">over that of an actual WWII Fighter Pilot?</span>

Pay close att to the bold yellow part! Note that I did NOT say the Ship Mechanic or the B17 pilot HAD NO SAY! What I said is I can not see how someone could take their opinion OVER THAT OF AN ACTUAL WWII ACE Like Bud Anderson.

Now in light of the fact that you already got confused about me saying you were being SARCASTIC I will let that one slide this time and not continue to accuse you of making false acuseations against me! In that now I belive it might have more to do with your reading comprehension? That is to say, you did not do it deliberately or with malice, you just did not understand what I said and responded in kind.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Furthermore B-17's were not just handed over.
Just to be clear here, I never said they were just handed over. But what that has to do with the topic at hand is beyond me. Care to explain?


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Flight training in single engine aircraft was done. Trim was used. He might have some valid things to say about it. But you think not. That was the disrespect.
No, that is not disrespect! As I already pointed out above, YOU ARE CONFUSED! I never said their comments were invalid! I simply found it amusing how someone would take a ship mechanic and B17 pilots opinion of how WWII Fighter Pilots flew over that of an actual WWII Fighter Pilot, an ACE even.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
You fail to see that.
No, you fail to understand what I said! Which upset you and caused you to respond in a negative manor. Read what I said and not that I never said their comments were not useful let alone invalid!


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
As far as awkward, was reaching for the trim wheel awkward or using it. That was my question. Nowhere did I say it felt awkward all the time.
Your right! Please forgive me! You did NOT say all the time! You even pointed out that he said he got accustomed to it! My bad!


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
There is nothing strange on my answer to Havok. I agreed.
No, it was strange, in that you not only agreed you expanded on it and made it sound like HaVoK was also saying that it took someone Above and Beyond to do this.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
My statement was saying some pilots were the best of the best and utilized all they had to great affect. I do not see the sarcasm here.
As if adj trim was some sort of magical feat that only some pilots could do, even though you could not pass flight school without doing it! Per reisen52


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Furthermore, I would hope you would remember everything being a Aerospace Engineer.
No worries, in that the neat thing about engineering is it teaches you how to teach yourself. So if I do forget something I have not done in a long time I only need to crack a book and re-learn it, or if it is something I never knew, I only have to crack a boot and teach myself how to do it. Within limits of corse!


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Now try to remember everything when a FW190/ME109 is looking to shoot you down. Much different senerio.
Are you trying to imply that engineering does not have any pressure involved? If so, hardly! I have worked on several projects that were being tested in the field, and rest assured there is a lot riding on it. Not my life mind you, but a lot! But, that is me! Keep in mind that this thread is not about me! It is about WWII pilots, and one of them, Bud Anderson said that adj the trim while in the middle of a dog fight was as easy and adj the radio knob of a car while driving.


Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
My thought here, in the heat of battle, under great stress did some pilots not trim? That is all. Nothing more.
Well, I never said all! As a mater of fact I go to great lengths to try and never say all! Because if there is one thing I have learned in engineering is the min you think you have seen it all, the exception to the rule steps up to the plate! But, the exceptions to the rule don't change the rule, the rule being that on average that is the way it is! SAVVY?

LEXX_Luthor
02-05-2007, 10:03 PM
TAGERT::
Adding delay actually makes the sim more realistic in that RL pilots could NOT adj the trim from min to max in a second! Which is what sim pilot can do with a slider.

By adding delay it mimics (aka simulates) the time it would have taken a RL pilot to spin a trim wheel.

Note this is not to suggest that it was hard to do in real life! Just that it was not instantaneous! As Bud Anderson said, it was as 'hard' as turning the dial on a radio while driving a car. Meaing you didnt have to take your eyes off the road to do it let alone look for the knob! It became 2nd nature after awhile.
True if elevator trim was controlled with instant acting full range motion slider controls. With the controls the elevator trim was originally designed for, such as keyboard and mousewheel, there was no need to delay the trim. The name "delay" itself shows it to be a retreat from the more accurate "un-delayed" trim. The customers wanting correctly modelled elevator trim for use with non-slider controls, such as myself (ie...mousewheel), did not benefit from the delay. The delay was a "cheat" against flight modelling -- a gameplay feature to prevent Online cheating, and so severely crippled use of elevator trim that it was much less used by customers, which violates Bud Anderson's writings.

Bearcat99
02-05-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.
You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Be that as it may be... I never said that people flew with trim.... I just said it was used in combat... Sure it was used to alleviate stick pressure... and I imagine it would work the other way.. to assist in placing pressure on the stick in a given direction in a high G turn.If a pilots arm got tired he'd have to lighten up on the stick/loosen up in the turn, and maybe pay a price...... I can yank my stick all day and my arm wont get tired... (wait...that doesnt sound right..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif ) The bottom line is trim was used... this si a sim.. and no matter how immersive it gets... until we have to grunt and groan to fly.. sweat and fight gravity and such... it will always be that way... and trim on a slider will not be a cheat or an exploit as long as anyone with a pot can do it... Im no pilot... never claimed to be.. but I know what I read and I put stock in what they said.

AKA_TAGERT
02-05-2007, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
True if elevator trim was controlled with instant acting full range motion slider controls.
Is why I brought it up! In that is what they were talking about when the said 'on a slider'


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
With the controls the elevator trim was originally designed for, such as keyboard and mousewheel, there was no need to delay the trim.
First things first, as far as I know the option to control the trim via a slider or KB has been around since day one, thus the slider was originally designed for.

Second I never said there was a need to delay the KB! The KB already has delay naturally build into it due to the fact that you can NOT type 100 keystrokes as fast as you can yank a slider. bot programable sticks can input keystrokes that fast.. Thus the need to delay KB inputs too.

On that note, using the KB gets messy in that you dont know how far you have gone, there is no reference feedback, where as with a slider you do have feedback on how much trim is or is not applied. If you have a Force Feedback Joystick than you can feel the forces ease up, so that is a 2nd hand feedback! But I would highly recomend that everyone get a slider for thier trim! It is much more imersive and provides better feedback to where you have thing set!

Some call that a cheat, but it aint! Your either smart enough to take advantage of the features or your not! It is as simple as that! Same goes for TrackIR! It does not give you a bigger FOV than anyone else, but it does free up one thumb to do other things and your get feedback in where you looking becuse you can since where your head is turned to.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
The name "delay" itself shows it to be a retreat from the more accurate "un-delayed" trim.
Not true! Not by a long shot! The addition of a hard coded delay was to make the slider act more realisticly in that in RL the pilots could not go from min to max trim settings in less than a second either.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
The customers wanting correctly modelled elevator trim for use with non-slider controls, such as myself (i.e....mousewheel), did not benefit from the delay.
Depends on you definition of benefit!

If your def of a benefit is the ability to UNREALISTICALLY go from min trim to max trim in less than a second than yes you did not benefit!

But..

If your def of a benefit is the simulation now takes into account the UNREALISTICALLY fast inpts (be it a slider, mouse wheel, KB, etc) by adding some delay, than yes it is an benefit!


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
The delay was a "cheat" against flight modelling
Nope! As I pointed out it is not part of it, it is an input to it


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
-- a gameplay feature to prevent Online cheating,
That is one way to look at it, another it to say that it is a FIX that made the simulation better in that it does NOT allow UNREALISTICALLY fast inputs to be applied to the FM! That is to say it simulates how fast a real pilot could adj his trim better now than before when you could go from min trim to max trim in less than a sec


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
and so severely crippled use of elevator trim that it was much less used by customers, which violates Bud Anderson's writings. Disagree 100%! For all the reason listed above and in my first reply to you on this subject, which still stands!

rnzoli
02-06-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by bjparker:
We were chasing a Red fighter, when it disappeared under the sea and suddenly appeared again on our tails! Too long to be simple lag.
It may have been a deliberate attempt to warp. Disappearing under the sea surface means that your opponent wasn't in connection with the server during this time, and what you saw was an extrapolation of his last movement. When his connection re-established after several seconds, his position was suddenly updated - and he happened to slow down in the meanwhile on his own PC, therefore he appeared behind you.

As a player, you can do a simple thing - if someone is flying in straight line and obviously not in a realistic manner (too high speed, partly under terrain or sea, strange attitude), change your direction immediately, don't chase such plane. Why? Because while your opponent is not connected to the server, his PC also extrapolates your position. If you fly straight line, he will expect where you will be after his connection is reestablished. If you change direction, he will have no idea and he might appear in front of your guns again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

But this is just temporary fix. The real solution is to fly on servers and with hosts having tight anti-lag and anti-warp settings in their conf.ini file, and then you can't do something like this without being auto-kicked due to high ping/high lag.

BTW, some connections in Russia are quite bad. Imagine analogue modems through antiquated phone lines, with lots of noise disturbance.

RCAF_Irish_403
02-06-2007, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.
You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Be that as it may be... I never said that people flew with trim.... I just said it was used in combat... Sure it was used to alleviate stick pressure... and I imagine it would work the other way.. to assist in placing pressure on the stick in a given direction in a high G turn.If a pilots arm got tired he'd have to lighten up on the stick/loosen up in the turn, and maybe pay a price...... I can yank my stick all day and my arm wont get tired... (wait...that doesnt sound right..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif ) The bottom line is trim was used... this si a sim.. and no matter how immersive it gets... until we have to grunt and groan to fly.. sweat and fight gravity and such... it will always be that way... and trim on a slider will not be a cheat or an exploit as long as anyone with a pot can do it... Im no pilot... never claimed to be.. but I know what I read and I put stock in what they said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trim on a slider a cheat? No way. <span class="ev_code_GREEN">How did we get stuck on trim, tho?</span> I mean, that can't be a cheat....it's closer to reality than assigning it to a keystroke (until we get trim wheels to turn in a full sized replica 'pit of your favorite warbird)

The funny thing is, even tho this is a heated 10 plus page argument, that there is pretty much zero cheating in the FB community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

prior to the reworked code in 46 i had only seen a couple instances of cheating and these people didn't last long in the server i was flying. The admins made sure to keep an eye on them and to boot/ban them once it got obvious

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 04:26 AM
TAGERT::
LEXX:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The name "delay" itself shows it to be a retreat from the more accurate "un-delayed" trim.
Not true! Not by a long shot! The addition of a hard coded delay was to make the slider act more realisticly in that in RL the pilots could not go from min to max trim settings in less than a second either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I should be more clear here: The "delay" proves a retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modelling when the player is using controls that trim was originally designed for, or optimized for, such as keyboard and mousewheel.



TAGERT::
First things first, as far as I know the option to control the trim via a slider or KB has been around since day one, thus the slider was originally designed for.
The option yes, obviously, but designed or optimized for -- no, or trim would have been "delayed" from day one.


TAGERT::
Second I never said there was a need to delay the KB! The KB already has delay naturally build into it due to the fact that you can NOT type 100 keystrokes as fast as you can yank a slider. bot programable sticks can input keystrokes that fast.. Thus the need to delay KB inputs too.
Correct. Oleg didn't design trim to be correctly used for instant slider controls (see above), or program bots, or program sticks, but for simple non-instant classic controls, such as keyboard or mouswheel, and was asked to cripple his flight modelling later, and stunningly, he agreed.


TAGERT::
On that note, using the KB gets messy in that you dont know how far you have gone, there is no reference feedback, where as with a slider you do have feedback on how much trim is or is not applied. If you have a Force Feedback Joystick than you can feel the forces ease up, so that is a 2nd hand feedback! But I would highly recomend that everyone get a slider for thier trim! It is much more imersive and provides better feedback to where you have thing set!
Recomendation rejected. Mousewheel is the most realistic and so most immersive control for elevator trim for me and many others, and offers more realistic feedback than any other control for this purpose. With correctly functioning "un-delayed" elevator trim -- fast, but not instant -- the player should feel the continous smooth yet quick change in stick pressures when elevator trim is applied through the mousewheel.



TAGERT::
Depends on you definition of benefit!

If your def of a benefit is the ability to UNREALISTICALLY go from min trim to max trim in less than a second than yes you did not benefit!

But..

If your def of a benefit is the simulation now takes into account the UNREALISTICALLY fast inpts (be it a slider, mouse wheel, KB, etc) by adding some delay, than yes it is an benefit!
The only "benefit" was Saving online play from possible cheating using slider trim, Saving online play from itself, which did nothing but cripple elevator trim for the cusomers who had no desire to use sliders, or other instant controls, or had no sliders at all.



TAGERT::
LEXX:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The delay was a "cheat" against flight modelling Nope! As I pointed out it is not part of it, it is an input to it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly! As we have pointed out, the delay was a cheat against flight modelling.



TAGERT::
LEXX:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> -- a gameplay feature to prevent Online cheating, That is one way to look at it, another it to say that it is a FIX that made the simulation better in that it does NOT allow UNREALISTICALLY fast inputs to be applied to the FM! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The delay crippled elevator trim for the majority of paying customers who desired to use other controls, such as keyboard and mousewheel. And most important, the delay so crippled elevator trim that people using these controls didn't bother anymore with trim use, in violation of Bud Anderson's writings, a claim which still stands, as we recall reading the webboard on the introduction of New FM 4.0, where the flight model *required* elevator trim, and thankfully, Oleg restored functioning elevator trim for customers not using sliders, and we saw that customers had largely abandoned using any trim (in violation of Bud Anderson's writings), as they simply learned to fly the joystick without trim aides.

BOA_Allmenroder
02-06-2007, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@BOA

Ok, what your saying then once in the high G his stick was getting heavy with pressure, he trimmed to get the pressure off, made his shot,leveled off and re-trimmed? If this is the case and staying on topic, as Bearcat said a few posts back that trimming is a feature. Trimming is very real in dynamic flight even in heavy combat situations. Then I can only deduce that trimming is not a cheat/hack.

Thanks for your input! I appreciate it.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You make the control input first with the major control, elevator/rudder, then you 'trim out' the force effects to make holding the control easier.

You don't lead with trim; also, in high speed turns, trimming is necessary in order to keep the a/c in a coordinated turn (the ball centered)so it maintains its maximum speed and turn rate ie does not slip or skid (which reduces your optimal turn rate.

What we are not privy to in our sim is the effects of 'g' on your legs/arms as you maintain a high 'g' combat turn. The force you must exert say, in your arm, also is effected by 'g' since your arm feels heavier.

So, you constantly trim away these forces to ease the burden upon yourself. I believe this is what Anderson is referring to and the advantage HE FELT it game him.

BOA_Allmenroder
02-06-2007, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.
You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Be that as it may be... I never said that people flew with trim.... I just said it was used in combat... Sure it was used to alleviate stick pressure... and I imagine it would work the other way.. to assist in placing pressure on the stick in a given direction in a high G turn.If a pilots arm got tired he'd have to lighten up on the stick/loosen up in the turn, and maybe pay a price...... I can yank my stick all day and my arm wont get tired... (wait...that doesnt sound right..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif ) The bottom line is trim was used... this si a sim.. and no matter how immersive it gets... until we have to grunt and groan to fly.. sweat and fight gravity and such... it will always be that way... and trim on a slider will not be a cheat or an exploit as long as anyone with a pot can do it... Im no pilot... never claimed to be.. but I know what I read and I put stock in what they said. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. However, my sense (and it could be just me) is that using trim IN THE SIM gives you an advantage in 'rate.'

Read carefully what Anderson says: he says he used trim particularly on the elevator to relieve the high g pressure caused by hard turning.

He does not say he turned faster by using trim. Rather, he kept the a/c in coordinated flight so that it maximized it's aerodynamic turning ability: but trim does not icrease your max rate.


Believe me, once out of such a turn and 'alone' you retrim for normal cruise flight because adding all that aft trim to help keep the nose up, results in a hefty amount of forward stick pressure in level, non turning flight.

Anderson, you and I would get tired of that and trim away this force as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Again, my beef is my suspicion (and I have no proof etc, just a feeling that I readily admit could be wrong) that trimming has been equated with turning faster and has been programmed that way in the game.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes, I should be more clear here: The "delay" proves a retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modelling when the player is using controls that trim was originally designed for, or optimized for, such as keyboard and mouse wheel.
No you were clear enough the first time, it must be I who was not clear enough?

I thought it was clear when I said IL2 has ALLAYS provided the choice between a..

1) Keyboard
2) Mouse Wheel
3) Slider
4) other

To control the trim settings.

But you must have missed that?

With that said, you are WRONG to imply the game was NOT originally designed/optimized for just the keyboard or mouse wheel.

As for the addition of the 'delay' proving some sort of retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modeling that is just a bunch of hog wash! The addition of the 'delay' makes the sim more realistic in that the simulation take into account the FACT that someone can move a Keyboard, Mouse Wheel, Slider, other from min trim to max trim a lot faster than a RL WWII pilot could. (NOTE WRT Keyboard I am talking about someone who programs 100 key presses on one button of a Joystick)


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
First things first, as far as I know the option to control the trim via a slider or KB has been around since day one, thus the slider was originally designed for.
The option yes, obviously, but designed or optimized for -- no, or trim would have been "delayed" from day one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh my bad! You did see it when I said it the first time, but you just didn't understand it! That I can help you with! In that I do understand this very well. You are wrong to imply that adding 'delay' proves a retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modelling in that in RL the adjustment of trim was delayed in that the RL pilot could not adjust his trim from min trim to max trim in less than a second as we could via a Keyboard, Mouse Wheel, Slider! Oleg realized this and added 'delay' so that the sim pilots could not input unrealisticly fast trim adjustments.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Second I never said there was a need to delay the KB! The KB already has delay naturally build into it due to the fact that you can NOT type 100 keystrokes as fast as you can yank a slider. bot programmable sticks can input keystrokes that fast.. Thus the need to delay KB inputs too.
Correct. Oleg didn't design trim to be correctly used for instant slider controls (see above), or program bots, or program sticks, but for simple non-instant classic controls, such as keyboard or mouswheel, and was asked to cripple his flight modelling later, and stunningly, he agreed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
WRONG! We don't agree at all! The addition of 'delay' on trim inputs does NOT cripple his flight modelling! As I already stated trim is not part of the FM just an input to it and the addition of 'delay' simply makes the speed at which the sim pilot can adjust his trim the same as a RL pilot. That is an improvement not a crippling effect! That is to say it makes the sim more realistic in that it does not allow folks to game the game!


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
On that note, using the KB gets messy in that you don't know how far you have gone, there is no reference feedback, where as with a slider you do have feedback on how much trim is or is not applied. If you have a Force Feedback Joystick than you can feel the forces ease up, so that is a 2nd hand feedback! But I would highly recommend that everyone get a slider for their trim! It is much more imersive and provides better feedback to where you have thing set!
Recommendation rejected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which if fine! If you want to use the keyboard to fly instead of a joystick that is fine too! It is your choice! But that does not negate my statement! A slider is better in that it provides you feedback as to where you trim settings are. Where as with key presses or mouse wheel turns you don't know exactly where the trim is at.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Mousewheel is the most realistic and so most immersive control for elevator trim for me and many others, and offers more realistic feedback than any other control for this purpose.
I do admit that a mouse wheel is a lot like a RL trim wheel in that you don't really know how many turns your have applied. In RL that was something you could 'FEEL' from the g forces and 'SEE' on the side slip ball. We have the later but not the 'FEEL' part. Thus in the sim world you need to supplement the missing 'FEEL' with another source of feedback. How far the slider is slide one way or another gives you that, where as a KB or Mouse wheel does not.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
With correctly functioning "un-delayed" elevator trim -- fast, <span class="ev_code_yellow">but not instant</span> --
NOW YOUR STARTING TO SEE THE LIGHT!

Ask yourself.. How do you implement something so that it.. How did you say it? "BUT NOT INSTANT"

Ill give you a moment to ponder that..

1...
2..
3.

Ready? Here goes.. The ONLY way to make sure the elevator trim can NOT be INSTANT is to add a 'DELAY' to the trim inputs! In that Oleg can not sit there with you and hold your hand to insure that you don't move the slider or mouse wheel too fast, so, he has to add a 'delay' to how fast the trim inputs can change.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
the player should feel the continous smooth yet quick change in stick pressures when elevator trim is applied through the mouse wheel.
The player does feel the continous smooth yet quick change in stick pressures when elevator trim is applied through the mouse wheel or slider or KB but the player does not feel INSTANT change due to the introduction of the 'delay' where as prior to the 'delay' the player DID feel INSTANT change because there was NO 'delay' to 'limit' how fast he could slide the slider or spin the mouse wheel.



Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Depends on you definition of benefit!

If your def of a benefit is the ability to UNREALISTICALLY go from min trim to max trim in less than a second than yes you did not benefit!

But..

If your def of a benefit is the simulation now takes into account the UNREALISTICALLY fast inputs (be it a slider, mouse wheel, KB, etc) by adding some delay, than yes it is an benefit!
The only "benefit" was Saving online play from possible cheating using slider trim, Saving online play from itself, which did nothing but cripple elevator trim for the cusomers who had no desire to use sliders, or other instant controls, or had no sliders at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true at all! As I pointed out, adding 'delay' that 'limits' how fast the user and apply trim inputs makes the sim more realistic in that RL pilots could NOT go from min trim to max trim in an INSTANT. Be it offline or online the addition of 'delay' makes the sim more realistic.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:The delay was a "cheat" against flight modelling Nope! As I pointed out it is not part of it, it is an input to it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly! As we have pointed out, the delay was a cheat against flight modelling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Darn and you were doing so well too! Go back up where you said.. "<span class="ev_code_yellow">but not instant</span>" and read my reply to you


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
That is one way to look at it, another it to say that it is a FIX that made the simulation better in that it does NOT allow UNREALISTICALLY fast inputs to be applied to the FM!
The delay crippled elevator trim for the majority of paying customers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true! The 'delay' added is to 'limit' how fast the trim input can change. This 'delay' does not effect people who are manually using the KB to enter trim inputs because they can not manually enter inputs faster that the delay itself, thus it goes unnoticed! Unless they are using some KB BOT or can type 100words/min.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
who desired to use other controls, such as keyboard and mouse wheel.
Darn and you were doing so well too! Go back up where you said.. "<span class="ev_code_yellow">but not instant</span>" and read my reply to you


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
And most important, the delay so crippled elevator trim that people using these controls didn't bother anymore with trim use, in violation of Bud Anderson's writings, a claim which still stands, as we recall reading the webboard on the introduction of New FM 4.0, where the flight model *required* elevator trim, and thankfully, Oleg restored functioning elevator trim for customers not using sliders, and we saw that customers had largely abandoned using any trim (in violation of Bud Anderson's writings), as they simply learned to fly the joystick without trim aides.
Disagree 100%!

It did NOT cripple anything! It made the sim more realistic! Go back up where you said.. "<span class="ev_code_yellow">but not instant</span>" and read my reply to you. Maybe the 3rd time is a charm? Your were so close there.. but you seem to have wandered off a bit!

Now if you have a better way to make the trim inputs NOT INSTANT than I am all ears!

But trying to imply that the addition of something you yourself admitted is NEEDED makes you look rather wishy washy.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 08:12 AM
TAGERT::
As for the addition of the 'delay' proving some sort of retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modeling that is just a bunch of hog wash!
Hogg wash? You are exposing your "feelings" and displaying dynamic emotional instability.

When you wish to talk, we are willing to talk with you.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for the addition of the 'delay' proving some sort of retreat from accurate un-delayed trim modeling that is just a bunch of hog wash!
Hogg wash? You are exposing your "feelings" and displaying dynamic emotional instability, like, if we recall, our old friend from the FAA, TonyT.

When you wish to talk, we are willing to talk with you.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I knew that quoting your <span class="ev_code_yellow">BUT NOT INSTANT</span> statement would leave you speechless and searching for a way out of this topic hoping no one would notice your mistake.

Nice try spin doctor, but Ol TAGERT has been around too long to fall for that old trick!

The FACT remains that you yourself admitted that the inputs should <span class="ev_code_yellow">NOT BE INSTANT</span>!

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 08:25 AM
TAGERT::
The FACT remains that you yourself admitted that the inputs should NO BE INSTANT!
Indeed, trim should work very fast, but not instantly across slider extremes. As we saw, the delayed trim caused many or most customers who didn't use slider trim to ignore bothering with trimming their aircraft at all, in violation of Bud Anderson's writings.

Cajun76
02-06-2007, 08:25 AM
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

RCAF_Irish_403
02-06-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

no kidding...all the quoting makes it incoherent. People just skip over it

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 08:32 AM
Well, *every* time TAGERT poasts, I *always* see something I left out of my poasts that can be confusing, as I can be rather sloppy at times. Its a good learning experience. That is how TAGERT helps the community, by taking an opposing view in order to force clarification of ideas.

MEGILE
02-06-2007, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

lol while Tagert is certainly one of the most verbose members of the community, he does it to leave no doubt in the readers mind what he is saying


unfortunatly, some poeople still don't get it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WB_Outlaw
02-06-2007, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Indeed, trim should work very fast...

What is your definition of "very fast"? I don't see any issues with the delay currently implemented. In fact, it wouldn't bother me if it were a little slower. Based on the photos I've seen, it looks to me like the most you could get per "swipe" of the hand is 1/4 turn on the trim wheel and it takes multiple turns to go from full nose down to full nose up trim. Those aircraft with electric trim are obviously excepted.

Of course I have never trimmed the elevator in any of the IL-2 aircraft but based on my limited flight experience in Cessnas and Cherokees, it's close enough as it is now.

If you really want it to be slow, use a 10 turn potentiometer for elevator trim like I do. Precise, hell yeah, fast...nope.

--Outlaw.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 08:52 AM
OutLaw::
What is your definition of "very fast"? I don't see any issues with the delay currently implemented.
Right -- its an old issue from long ago, not relevant anymore except for lessons of game design, where Oleg slowed down elevator trim for all his customers in response to a tiny number of complaints of "slider trim" cheating during Online gameplay.

With 4.0+ New FM, Oleg returned to his customers functioning elevator trim, without allowing the return of the slider cheating (*see below however). The new flight models require elevator trim more than the old flight models, which is why pre-4.0, everybody could ignore elevator trimming as it was crippled anyways.

* Its all fixed now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Oleg figured out a way to "un-delay" elevator trim without allowing slider trim cheating during Online gameplay. Granted, some say there never was any slider trim cheating, and it never worked, but I have never used a slider so I don't know. I do know that I often didn't bother with the frustration of trying to use Oleg's crippled elevator trim -- popularly called "sloth trim" -- until 4.0 New FM.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 09:11 AM
I guess, in FB, "fast trim" could be defined as trim controls that models the relieving of stick forces during various flight conditions such as climb, dive, level flight, etc...

"Slow trim" or "sloth trim" is defined as the pre-4.0 trim that forced players to wait a long time to gain any feedback to their non-slider trim inputs. Without a slider, overtrimming was common, and so the player trimmed back to correct the overtrim, once enough time passed that the player could see he/she had over trimmed, the result being under trimming, which had to be corrected also, then more overtrimming, until hopefully the player eventually found the correct trim setting for any specific flight condition.

This artificially delayed sloth trim caused players to fight the trim controls more than untrimmed joysticks. Thus, most never used elevator trim during this period (now ended with 4.0 New FM). But, Online gameplay was saved from cheating, saved from itself, and survived until 4.0 New FM brought back "fast trim" but without Online slider trim cheating.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 09:25 AM
TAGERT, you remember with the delayed trim, you could press a key, and nothing happens for a few seconds. If we recall, we could press many keys and build up a backlog of trim inputs in time before any effects of trim changes appeared. This apparently worked "okay" until the slider trim cheating appeared. And only then was the delay implemented, and the delay forced far too long a time for keyboard trim controls to provide feedback to players.

The "hogg wash" comment made me skip reading the rest of your 2nd to last poast, but after reading it, we have a point to work with...

TAGERT::
The ONLY way to make sure the elevator trim can NOT be INSTANT is to add a 'DELAY' to the trim inputs!
I think, Oleg used a bit of trim for each keyboard press. Some say he used an exponential or logarithmic algorithm for fast repeated keystrokes, I don't know. But the delay made keyboard trim control, and mousewheel control, too long to get any useful feedback to trim changes.

I think you are skipping reading my poasts too. I use mouswheel for elevator trim, not keyboard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The FACT remains that you yourself admitted that the inputs should NO BE INSTANT!
Indeed, trim should work very fast, but not instantly across slider extremes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And how do you prepose to do that? Oleg is an engineer and his way was to 'delay' the responce time to trim inputs. You way is.. is.. is.. what?


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
As we saw, the delayed trim caused many or most customers who didn't use slider trim to ignore bothering with trimming their aircraft at all, in violation of Bud Anderson's writings.
Disaree 100%

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Pun intended? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Adlerangriff
02-06-2007, 09:30 AM
Do you want butter or jam on that poast?

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
no kidding...all the quoting makes it incoherent. People just skip over it You say that as if I give a rip if you read it! Know that I don't! It was intended for LEXX, if anyone else cares to read it fine, if not fine too!

SeaFireLIV
02-06-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Reminds me of myself in my earlier days. Not that I approve of such barbery.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Reminds me of myself in my earlier days. Not that I approve of such barbery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Such colorful accusations, so little proof provided to support them.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 09:44 AM
TAGERT::
And how do you prepose to do that? Oleg is an engineer and his way was to 'delay' the responce time to trim inputs. You way is.. is.. is.. what?
Oleg is...is...a game designer who personally favours Online competition dogfight game development, and so was, at least in his early days, willing to disable his simulation's flight models for all customers to protect Online gameplay from accusations of trim cheating. As you have noted recently, mere accusations of cheating are the death of Online combat flight sims.

Perhaps, if some things that csThor has poasted are correct, and with Oleg willing to split BoB And Beyond into seperate Online and Offline versions, Oleg is becoming a businessman.

rnzoli
02-06-2007, 09:54 AM
Oleg is becoming a businessman
Just a note: there are plenty of businessmen running around an American company called Microsoft. I guess that's enough of a warning what can you expect when businessman start to take over. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 10:10 AM
rnzoli::
Just a note: there are plenty of businessmen running around an American company called Microsoft. I guess that's enough of a warning what can you expect when businessman start to take over. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Butt, Maddox Games is a Russian company, not a Ussian company like Microsoft. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-06-2007, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Good grief Tagert, trim it down a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Reminds me of myself in my earlier days. Not that I approve of such barbery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Such colorful accusations, so little proof provided to support them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even you will one day realise that there`s more to the world than matching sarcastic wits with faceless names on a forum.

BaldieJr
02-06-2007, 10:22 AM
No you are the one who is not the best.

BM357_Sniper
02-06-2007, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.

You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not entirely correct here. You are always trimming the plane for whatever flight attitude it is you're trying to attain. Whether it's level flight, steep turns, lazy 8's, chandelles, ect. Trimming does help the plane maneauver in the sense that it helps the pilot perform the maneauver. It does make a big difference especially in the more pronouced things where you can really feel loading.

BM357_Sniper
02-06-2007, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Boa,

Very interesting. I did some searching last night on the matter and I did read about relieving pressure by use of trim. I could not find much else on it. But relieving pressure is what Bud Anderson was doing(from what I understand by your post). Still, trim was used in the engagement. I believe this to be discussion. Basically if pilots were turning the trim knobs to gain advantage, either in relieving pressure or making the aircraft perform somewhat better so as to get the kill. You state that trim had to be re-adjusted after the engagement. This would mean the pilot is making adjustments in the engagement. Yes?

Warhawk, I don't know for sure one way or the other, all I can do is relate a story of mine to you. I do not see how, in some cases, that a combat pilot could sustain some heavy loading manaeuvers without trimming. I only have this example to give. I was doing steep turns, 50 degree, level banks, in a C310. It is just a twin engine with 280 hp engines. Now, I'm 5'10' and 215 lbs and work out, a lot. lol I was trimmed for level flight when I entered the turn and if I did not trim, even just a bit, for that steep turn, it took everything I had to pull back on the yoke and hold altitude. I know that is no fighter, but I'm sure we can agree they were doing stuff that required a lot more strength than I had OR they had to trim, at least in some cases.

AVGWarhawk
02-06-2007, 10:58 AM
@Sniper

I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it.

BOA_Allmenroder
02-06-2007, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.

You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not entirely correct here. You are always trimming the plane for whatever flight attitude it is you're trying to attain. Whether it's level flight, steep turns, lazy 8's, chandelles, ect. Trimming does help the plane maneauver in the sense that it helps the pilot perform the maneauver. It does make a big difference especially in the more pronouced things where you can really feel loading. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to quibble here, but you put the a/c in the attitude you want, then trim to relieve pressures.

If you need the nose to go down, you put it there and then trim off the elevator pressure.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Oleg is...is...a game designer who personally favours Online competition dogfight game development, and so was, at least in his early days, willing to disable his simulation's flight models for all customers to protect Online gameplay from accusations of trim cheating. As you have noted recently, mere accusations of cheating are the death of Online combat flight sims.
That is a neat 'FEELING' to have, but that is all it is!

In that you have absolutely nothing to support that 'FEELING' other than your own biased fears that make you 'FEEL' that way. Unless you consider your crystal ball as support?

Now, back to the question that you tried to ignore with you trollish tanget topic statement above.

That being..

Oleg, as an Aerospace Engineer, decided to fix the INSTANT TRIM CHANGE bug by adding a 'delay' the response time of the trim inputs.

LEX_Luthor, as a sim maker want to be, would fix the INSTANT TRIM CHANGE bug by "________________________"

You fill in the blank please! and feel free to use your crystal ball that enables you to read the minds of Oleg and the Users of this game that gives you the insight to say that Oleg did it for game plane reasons and the users gave up trying to use trim. Not because your crystal ball is correct, just for the pure comic relief factor!

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it. How you get there does not mater!

Just that you get there!

Keep up the good work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Even you will one day realise that there`s more to the world than matching sarcastic wits with faceless names on a forum. Been there done that, catch up!

AVGWarhawk
02-06-2007, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it. How you get there does not mater!

Just that you get there!

Keep up the good work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How was this modeled into the game, not specifically trim but the forces that are felt requiring trim to moved about for coordinated flight? I experience buffeting or stall. Now I never messed with the trim other than to trim the aircraft after takeoff. No trim movement during hard turns etc. Although after the hard turn I had to re-adjust for level fight. Can the physical force be modeled in? Perhaps the buffeting and stall modeled in for poor trim adjustment on hard turns? I don't know.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it.
How you get there does not mater!

Just that you get there!

Keep up the good work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How was this modeled into the game, not specifically trim but the forces that are felt requiring trim to moved about for coordinated flight? I experience buffeting or stall. Now I never messed with the trim other than to trim the aircraft after takeoff. No trim movement during hard turns etc. Although after the hard turn I had to re-adjust for level fight. Can the physical force be modeled in? Perhaps the buffeting and stall modeled in for poor trim adjustment on hard turns? I don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In RL they could feel the force on the controls and the g force on their body (seat of pants) and see the side slip indicator and/or ball. Of those three the sim only provides the side slip indicator and/or ball..

Unless you have a force feedback joystick!

With a FFB you can at least feel the force in the stick but not the rudders.

Now in RL I imagine that during a dog fight they were not looking at the side slip indicator and/or ball but were going totally off the force feel of in the controls and the g force on their body. Basically trimming the plane in such a manor as to relive the force on the controls.

That is one of the biggest things missing in a flight simulation! So all we have to go by in the side slip indicator and/or ball to trim out the forces.. Something that I don't think the RL pilots bothered looking at while in the middle of a DF.. But if we want to trim the plane ding a DF we have to look at them, it is the only feedback we got! Unless we have a FFB! (Is the part where some nub will say that a FFB is a cheat?)

A little OT but to make up for the fact that we don't feel the force (no star wars jokes please) the sim maker should have a HUD like transparent display that mimics the info from the side slip indicator and/or ball to make up for the lack of any real force on the controls. Now before any of you dim bulbs point out the fact that WWII planes didn't really have HUD like displays, the answer is I know! The point is we don't have the feel of the forces in the controls so we need something in its place!

Especially now that modern flight sims are modeling things like trim more acuratally.

That is my 2 cents anyway! Take it or leave it! I could give a rip!

joeap
02-06-2007, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:

That is a neat 'FEELING' to have, but that is all it is!

In that you have absolutely nothing to support that 'FEELING' other than your own biased fears that make you 'FEEL' that way. Unless you consider your crystal ball as support?



Not the first time Lexx said things with no basis in fact ... of course I've said things with no basis in fact as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

AVGWarhawk
02-06-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it.
How you get there does not mater!

Just that you get there!

Keep up the good work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How was this modeled into the game, not specifically trim but the forces that are felt requiring trim to moved about for coordinated flight? I experience buffeting or stall. Now I never messed with the trim other than to trim the aircraft after takeoff. No trim movement during hard turns etc. Although after the hard turn I had to re-adjust for level fight. Can the physical force be modeled in? Perhaps the buffeting and stall modeled in for poor trim adjustment on hard turns? I don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In RL they could feel the force on the controls and the g force on their body (seat of pants) and see the side slip indicator and/or ball. Of those three the sim only provides the side slip indicator and/or ball..

Unless you have a force feedback joystick!

With a FFB you can at least feel the force in the stick but not the rudders.

Now in RL I imagine that during a dog fight they were not looking at the side slip indicator and/or ball but were going totally off the force feel of in the controls and the g force on their body. Basically trimming the plane in such a manor as to relive the force on the controls.

That is one of the biggest things missing in a flight simulation! So all we have to go by in the side slip indicator and/or ball to trim out the forces.. Something that I don't think the RL pilots bothered looking at while in the middle of a DF.. But if we want to trim the plane ding a DF we have to look at them, it is the only feedback we got! Unless we have a FFB! (Is the part where some nub will say that a FFB is a cheat?)

A little OT but to make up for the fact that we don't feel the force (no star wars jokes please) the sim maker should have a HUD like transparent display that mimics the info from the side slip indicator and/or ball to make up for the lack of any real force on the controls. Now before any of you dim bulbs point out the fact that WWII planes didn't really have HUD like displays, the answer is I know! The point is we don't have the feel of the forces in the controls so we need something in its place!

Especially now that modern flight sims are modeling things like trim more acuratally.

That is my 2 cents anyway! Take it or leave it! I could give a rip! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, we do miss the actual forces while sitting in front of a monitor. I never used a FFB stick but I guess it would give some feeling. The black screen of death in high G is another one indicating trim it out or to much down force? Slip indicator/ball as you mention seem to be about it.

The force is strong with this one....I'm sorry, I could not help myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 01:50 PM
TAGERT::
Oleg, as an Aerospace Engineer, decided to fix the INSTANT TRIM CHANGE bug by adding a 'delay' the response time of the trim inputs.

LEX_Luthor, as a sim maker want to be, would fix the INSTANT TRIM CHANGE bug by "________________________"

You fill in the blank please! and feel free to use your crystal ball that enables you to read the minds of Oleg and the Users of this game that gives you the insight to say that Oleg did it for game plane reasons and the users gave up trying to use trim. Not because your crystal ball is correct, just for the pure comic relief factor!
No need to read minds, but we did read the FB webboard during the time of RayBanJockey, and saw the aggressive and hostile behavior that many Online computer gamers used to attack Oleg's customers -- attacking both other Online players and Offline players -- that were asking for functioning elevator trim in their flight models without needing a slider. And, the writings of Bud Anderson was one primary example used by many of Oleg's customers asking for a useful and responsive elevator trim without needing a slider.

To cover again what was poasted above, Oleg is a game designer who personally favours Online competition dogfight game development, and so was willing to disable his simulation's flight models for all customers in order to protect Online gameplay from accusations of trim cheating. As you (TAGERT) have noted recently, mere accusations of cheating are the death of Online combat flight sims. As a game designer, Oleg felt the need to make this decision, as preserving Online competition dogfight gameplay was his most important focus.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
No need to read minds, Really? Than where did you get the statistics to support your statement that most of the users gave up trying to use the trim? In that I have not even seen a poll on this let alone any gathing of statistal data to support such a claim. Granted, we all assume that everyone thinks the same way we do, I even do it from time to time and make bold statements like yours! The reason I am being so hard on you and demanding statistics that I know I will never get is to make you stop and think about what your saying. What your saying is you opinion based on your experance. Nothing more nothing less! You perception of users and Oleg is based on how you view what goes on around you. Long story short, what you say about how users act or way Oleg did what he did is nothing but your opinion of what might have happned. Which could be very different from what actually happned! Again, we all do it from time to time so I am not holding you up to a higher standard than myself! I am simply tryig to hightlight the fact that what you said is NOT FACT but your opinion.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
but we did read the FB webboard during the time of RayBanJockey, and saw the aggressive and hostile behavior that many Online computer gamers used to attack Oleg's customers -- attacking both other Online players and Offline players -- that were asking for functioning elevator trim in their flight models without needing a slider. And, the writings of Bud Anderson was one primary example used by many of Oleg's customers asking for a useful and responsive elevator trim without needing a slider.
So! I have seen Oleg cave on things I never thought he would have and I have seen him not cave on things I thought he would have! Just because you ate a carrot today and Oleg changed something he next day does NOT mean it was because you ate a carrot.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
To cover again what was poasted above, Oleg is a game designer who personally favours Online competition dogfight game development,
Neat ˜FEELING' but no proof of that


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
and so was willing to disable his simulation's flight models for all customers in order to protect Online gameplay from accusations of trim cheating.
If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times, the trim is NOT part of the FM it is an input to it thus Oleg did NOT disable his flight simulation at all.


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
As you (TAGERT) have noted recently, mere accusations of cheating are the death of Online combat flight sims.
Yes and I belive it to be true!


Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
As a game designer, Oleg felt the need to make this decision, as preserving Online competition dogfight gameplay was his most important focus.
Neat FEELING but no proof of that.

In that there is another way of looking at it. He realized that the way the code was it would allow unrealistically fast trim adjustments. So to make it more realistic he added a ˜delay' the response time of the trim inputs. That does not dumb down or disable the FM in any way shape or from! It makes the simulation as a whole more realistic in that it does not allow anyone to adjust he trim faster than a real pilot could. The only people that would have problem with the KB ˜delay' response time is the people who were trying to adj trim via the KB faster than a RL pilot could have, i.e. almost to he point that their inputs were like that of a KB BOT.

PS still waiting on how you would have fixxed the INSTAND problem.. Thought I forgot didnt yah? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WB_Outlaw
02-06-2007, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
A little OT but to make up for the fact that we don't feel the force (no star wars jokes please) the sim maker should have a HUD like transparent display that mimics the info from the side slip indicator and/or ball to make up for the lack of any real force on the controls.

Using the devicelink interface, a second computer, and $50 worth of off the shelf hardware I built a little servo driven arm that sat on my knee and moved depending on the direction and amount of sideslip. I also set it up to sound a tone that changed pitch to signal the amount and direction of side slip.

With another $75 for the network interface I could eliminate the second computer. Unfortunately, the side slip isn't available online so it does not matter.

--Outlaw.

Cajun76
02-06-2007, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:


A little OT but to make up for the fact that we don't feel the force (no star wars jokes please) <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">the sim maker should have a HUD like transparent display that mimics the info from the side slip indicator and/or ball to make up for the lack of any real force on the controls.</span>

Great idea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Hit Shift F1, the pipper can do exactly that.

As far as all this, and as much as I always enjoy LEXX's "poasts", I have to disagree and say that Oleg has to walk through a minefield at times, and can't make everyone happy. This includes onwhiners like me.

Trim is generally something that you input, wait for the aircraft to stabilize, and then trim again if necessary. It's nothing for "moast" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif of us to hold our stick at any angle for as long as we want, simulating 50 lbs of force on our virtual controls. So trimming away excess stick pressure in the sim is not an issue like it is in real life.

That may or may not change in future sims, as some will think they can hold 250lbs all day, and others will know better. How long until your virtual arm gets tired? Will there be a key to lock out the throttle and use both "hands" on the stick? I don't envy developers on these things at all, because as sims get deeper, so do the headaches like this.

*I had to add "onwhiner" and "poast" to my spellchecker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Great idea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Hit Shift F1, the pipper can do exactly that.
Sorry, I don't Wonder Woman! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But imagine a combination of that over the cockpit view.. A semi transparent HUD type of thing. Or, something like Air Warrior did so many years ago.. Have the screen but at the edge of the screen you could put equalizer types of bar looking things. Across the top left right you could have a sideslip sort of thing, on the LHS top to bottom a g force gauge. I don't know anything to supplement the FACT that we don't feel jack while flying. That is what simulation is all about! What you can do do, what you can not do mimic!

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 05:13 PM
Cajun::
As far as all this, and as much as I always enjoy LEXX's "poasts", I have to disagree and say that Oleg has to walk through a minefield at times, and can't make everyone happy. This includes onwhiners like me.
The people you make Happy are the people paying the bills, and they were not the Online players at the time of the Trim Wars. What Oleg should have done was make the original fast trim available for Offline play, or make it a server option also, as there were many Online players wanting the original fast trim for use without sliders to properly trim their aircraft for various flight conditions.

There are no minefields on computer gamer webboards except the ones we invent in our minds -- Mindfields.

LEXX_Luthor
02-06-2007, 05:17 PM
TAGERT::
The reason I am being so hard on you and demanding statistics that I know I will never get is to make you stop and think about what your saying.
Thanks. I appreciate it, and its tough not to get emotional about it. I have thought about it since the Trim Wars. We remember seeing what happened on the boards here. What we had then, and to some degree may still have, is not a discussion of elevator trim or aircraft modelling, but aggressive competitive Online computer gamer webboard behavior. The Trim Wars have receded, but the lesson in game design has not. On the other side of the old "debate" were some who claimed that the slider cheat never existed, and your statistics and testing would have been useful then, in that sub-theme. Most interesting, even if slider trim cheating never existed in FB, the mere accusation was enough to panic Oleg into crippling his flight models (cripple the input, cripple the flight model, if you wish). You recently stated that the CFS3 Online community saw little or no cheating with open-mod flight models, but was self-destructed by mere accusations of cheating, and not cheating itself.

Somewhat related, a most funny epidose ensued with the releace of 4.0 New FM which returned fast acting trim to the customers without sliders, probably because the New FM needed it. There were many gamers here who cried about the New FM because they didn't want to bother trimming for various flight conditions. We suggested they fly with easier settings, but that is not an acceptable option for "hardcore" Old Timer gamers who never needed to learn trim use in the old pre-4.0 flight models on hard settings.

AKA_TAGERT
02-06-2007, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
True, we do miss the actual forces while sitting in front of a monitor.
Yup! No mater what Ol Stigler & Leadspitter say, there are limitations to what a PC can do! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
I never used a FFB stick but I guess it would give some feeling.
YES! One thing I forgot to mention! As you adj the trim you can feel the force change in the FFB Stick! Just like the real thing! Granted, it is not 50lb of force, but you can feel the stick force get softer or harder as you adj the trim! It is a great thing! I only wish they made rudder peddles with force feedback too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
The black screen of death in high G is another one indicating trim it out or to much down force?
I guess so? I mean the black screen does simulate the effect of blood leavig your skull under sustaind g forces, and the trim does factor into that in a way.


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Slip indicator/ball as you mention seem to be about it.
It is the only thing we (simmers) ALL got where as if you have a FFB you have one extra source of feedback


Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
The force is strong with this one....I'm sorry, I could not help myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
ROTFL! I knew someone wouldnt be able to resist! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BM357_Sniper
02-06-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BOA_Allmenroder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I don't know if it was taught in flight school or not... but you can bet that somewhere a pilot was in combat, used his trim to outturn his opponent... lived to tell the tale.. and when he got back home he told his squadmates about it. It grows from there. Then it probably became one of those things that you tell the rookies. Many times doing t6hings by the book will get you killed in combat... it is thinking outside the box and learning from experience.. that of others and your own that enables you to survive many wartime situations where the wrong choice spells certain death.

Oh, boy where to start.

Trimming does not help an airplane turn, climb, dive or roll faster (rudder, elevator, ailerons).

Trimming is used to relieve the control pressure one feels when one displaces a control and must hold it against the airflow. For example, in turning one must:

1. displace aileron to start roll (without roll you don't turn: btw this is why the FW 190 was so good, it's high rate of roll allowed it to get into the turn quicker than many of it's opponents). However, once your bank angle is established you return the aileron control to neutral or else you'd just keep rolling since the aileron would still be deflected.

2. displace rudder to maintain coordinated flight; the steeper the bank angle the more rudder you need to pivot the a/c around the vertical (yaw) axis.
3. displace stick to hold altitude as bank angle increases.

As you hold the turn you feel the forces (the wind force)against the control deflection. You then use trim to relieve the control pressures.

What Anderson is describing is being in a sustained high g turn, trimming away pressures so his muscles can relax.

That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less.

When you roll back to 'level' you have to untrim all the trim you just put in, or fight the control pressures you have just created.

You don't fly the aircraft with trim. Anyone who's had a flight lesson of any type has heard the 'stop flying the aircraft with trim' mantra from their instructor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not entirely correct here. You are always trimming the plane for whatever flight attitude it is you're trying to attain. Whether it's level flight, steep turns, lazy 8's, chandelles, ect. Trimming does help the plane maneauver in the sense that it helps the pilot perform the maneauver. It does make a big difference especially in the more pronouced things where you can really feel loading. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to quibble here, but you put the a/c in the attitude you want, then trim to relieve pressures.

If you need the nose to go down, you put it there and then trim off the elevator pressure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you. I think what I had in mind was that I trim nearly at the same time I am changing attitude. I already know what I need, however, there are a few occassions where I trim prior, in anticipation of a maneauver. You are correct that you do not fly the plane with trim. I guess mine has to do with personal preference.

BM357_Sniper
02-06-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Sniper

I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it.

Sorry Warhawk I jumped in kinda late. lol

heywooood
02-06-2007, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason I am being so hard on you and demanding statistics that I know I will never get is to make you stop and think about what your saying.
Thanks. I appreciate it, and its tough not to get emotional about it. I have thought about it since the Trim Wars. We remember seeing what happened on the boards here. What we had then, and to some degree may still have, is not a discussion of elevator trim or aircraft modelling, but aggressive competitive Online computer gamer webboard behavior. The Trim Wars have receded, but the lesson in game design has not. On the other side of the old "debate" were some who claimed that the slider cheat never existed, and your statistics and testing would have been useful then, in that sub-theme. Most interesting, even if slider trim cheating never existed in FB, the mere accusation was enough to panic Oleg into crippling his flight models (cripple the input, cripple the flight model, if you wish). You recently stated that the CFS3 Online community saw little or no cheating with open-mod flight models, but was self-destructed by mere accusations of cheating, and not cheating itself.

Somewhat related, a most funny epidose ensued with the releace of 4.0 New FM which returned fast acting trim to the customers without sliders, probably because the New FM needed it. There were many gamers here who cried about the New FM because they didn't want to bother trimming for various flight conditions. We suggested they fly with easier settings, but that is not an acceptable option for "hardcore" Old Timer gamers who never needed to learn trim use in the old pre-4.0 flight models on hard settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


All of this is sucksinked - thats why Onliners don't get it.

Real warbird trim wheels and levers are set close to hand and are easy to manipulate, so as to make them usefull in flight in all flight attitudes. High speed combat manoevering pilots will never exceed more than 10-15 degrees of flap deployment because the flaps may be damaged if deployed further at high speed / angles of attack.

A pilot in a real warbird flying for his life will not accept DELAYED flap actuation for any reason. The planes' control surfaces must move freely and not bind or ratchet in any way.

This is always checked during preflight.

To say that this was done by Oleg to represent or simulate G-forces or pilot fatigue is flat out B/S.

It was to 'control' gamer exploit of the realistic use of combat flaps in online D/F pointfests.

People who have no concept of flying or flight control but rather are only interested in online stats and who vehemently and aggresively challenge the offline players desire to have realistic flight control response to trim input.

Worried about gamer 'exploits' Oleg?

Have seperate flight controls for online users and realistic controls for offline enthusiasts.

Cajun76
02-06-2007, 11:27 PM
Eh, the flaps were never on a delay.....

AVGWarhawk
02-07-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Sniper

I'm good with it now and got a better idea of the dynamics of it. Thanks for pouring more insight into this. Do to extreme forces on the flying surfaces trimming through hard maneuvers relieves the extreme forces on the pilots arms allowing the pilot to keep better control and coordinated flight. This is how I understand it.

Sorry Warhawk I jumped in kinda late. lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's ok, I got jumped enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AKA_TAGERT
02-07-2007, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
That's ok, I got jumped enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Well, when you falsely accuse someone of something they tend to defend themselves in kind. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jaws2002
02-07-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
TAGERT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason I am being so hard on you and demanding statistics that I know I will never get is to make you stop and think about what your saying.
Thanks. I appreciate it, and its tough not to get emotional about it. I have thought about it since the Trim Wars. We remember seeing what happened on the boards here. What we had then, and to some degree may still have, is not a discussion of elevator trim or aircraft modelling, but aggressive competitive Online computer gamer webboard behavior. The Trim Wars have receded, but the lesson in game design has not. On the other side of the old "debate" were some who claimed that the slider cheat never existed, and your statistics and testing would have been useful then, in that sub-theme. Most interesting, even if slider trim cheating never existed in FB, the mere accusation was enough to panic Oleg into crippling his flight models (cripple the input, cripple the flight model, if you wish). You recently stated that the CFS3 Online community saw little or no cheating with open-mod flight models, but was self-destructed by mere accusations of cheating, and not cheating itself.

Somewhat related, a most funny epidose ensued with the releace of 4.0 New FM which returned fast acting trim to the customers without sliders, probably because the New FM needed it. There were many gamers here who cried about the New FM because they didn't want to bother trimming for various flight conditions. We suggested they fly with easier settings, but that is not an acceptable option for "hardcore" Old Timer gamers who never needed to learn trim use in the old pre-4.0 flight models on hard settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Luthor I think you should get an Internet connection and something with a trim weel ,so you can play online. All this anger towards online players and those that have a "slider" for the trim weel will make you burst a blood vessel.

We, online gamers are the plague of the interweb, are responsible for the starving in Africa and global warming. OMG THE HOROR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Whether you like it or not, online gaming is the future in gaming and is here to stay.

Relax bud. Is just a game.

AKA_TAGERT
02-07-2007, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by heywooood:
All of this is sucksinked - thats why Onliners don't get it.
Really? Well lets read on and see who is NOT getting IT shall we?


Originally posted by heywooood:
Real warbird trim wheels and levers are set close to hand and are easy to manipulate, so as to make them usefull in flight in all flight attitudes.
Short Answer: DUH!
Long Answer: Nobody here that I know of ever said the controls were out of reach of the hand or too ˜hard' to manipulate. Excluding the example of the Bf109 in a dive where the stick flet like it was in a bucket of cement, but I digress! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by heywooood:
High speed combat manoevering pilots will never exceed more than 10-15 degrees of flap deployment because the flaps may be damaged if deployed further at high speed / angles of attack.
Short Answer: Maybe.. Maybe Not?
Long Answer: One thing I have learned in life it to never say never! Your statement may be true, than again it may not be true?

Only thing we know for sure is blanket statements like that are typically in error in that there is always an exception to the rule.

Something as simple as one man's definition of high speed might be 200mph and another may be 500mph can change the whole meaning of your statment.


Originally posted by heywooood:
A pilot in a real warbird flying for his life will not accept DELAYED flap actuation for any reason. The planes' control surfaces must move freely and not bind or ratchet in any way. This is always checked during preflight.
Short Answer: DUH
Long Answer: Nobody here that I know of ever said that Oleg applied a ˜delay' to the response of the FLAPS inputs. Up until now everyone has been talking about the ˜delay' to the response time of the TRIM inputs. So, from here forward Ill assume you meant to say TRIM when you said FLAPS.

With that in mind..

The POINT is that a PC slider can be manipulated much much faster than a RL trim wheel! That is to say you can go from min trim to max trim in less than a second, where as in RL it would take a few turns of the trim wheel to go from min trim to max trim, which would take more than a second. How much more? I don't know all I know is that Oleg saw this as a problem in that it allowed the sim pilot to input unrealistically fast trim inputs which in turned allowed the sim pilot to do things that could not be done in RL. Thus the addition of the ˜delay' to the trim input response time.


Originally posted by heywooood:
To say that this was done by Oleg to represent or simulate G-forces or pilot fatigue is flat out B/S.
Agreed 100%! In that nobody up to now has said that was the reason why Oleg added the ˜delay'


Originally posted by heywooood:
It was to 'control' gamer exploit of the realistic use of combat flaps in online D/F pointfests.
Disagree 100%! As noted it was to ensure that no sim pilot, online or offline could input trim changes faster than a RL pilot could have.


Originally posted by heywooood:
People who have no concept of flying or flight control but rather are only interested in online stats and who vehemently and aggresively challenge the offline players desire to have realistic flight control response to trim input.
Disagree 100%! Offline pilots also desire realism! Which is why the ˜delay' is active both online and offline.


Originally posted by heywooood:
Worried about gamer 'exploits' Oleg?
I doubt it, in that he fixed it by adding the ˜delay'


Originally posted by heywooood:
Have seperate flight controls for online users and realistic controls for offline enthusiasts.
I don't think you can refer to people who want to cheat offline using unrealistically fast trim inputs as enthusiasts?

But maybe Oleg could make it part of the option menu?

You know for guys like you that like to disable stalls, enable unlimited ammo and fuel, etc.

Maybe Oleg can add one more option for guys like you that enables newb fast trim inputs?

Philipscdrw
02-07-2007, 11:51 AM
What's the big deal about trim and control forces? Flying an aeroplane, you simply push/pull the controls to make the aeroplane move as you desire, and if you want to stay at that attitude you adjust the trim so you don't need to put force on the controls to keep the aircraft moving as you desire. What else is there to discuss about trim? It's not really rocket science...

And the current setup in Il-2 appears accurate to me.

I have trim on a slider. (It's a consolation for using a CHProducts yoke with Il-2...) It works the same way I use it in gliders: push control column to hold aircraft in desired attitude, then apply trim until I don't need to push the yoke to keep the aircraft in that position.

Flaps on a slider, in my opinion, is an exploit. Real Spitfire flaps existed in three states: Up, Down 85?, or in transit. So being able to command 45? flap on a Spitfire is unhistorical. Yes, anyone can do it if they have a spare controller axis, but anyone can listen to the enemy's Teamspeak channel and that's cheating... I don't care really - if the enemy's trying to evade me then I've already failed and should probably disengage!

AKA_TAGERT
02-08-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
What's the big deal about trim and control forces?
Nothing IMHO!

But this forum is known for making a mountain out of a mole hill!

heywooood
02-08-2007, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Eh, the flaps were never on a delay.....


No - but their settings are over simplified and not accurately modeled in most cases (from a control point of view) - the pilot can control the flaps by degree (in R/L) in most types and isn't handcuffed by 'combat' 'takeoff' and 'landing' ratchets.

The trim control inputs ARE delayed WRT actuation of the trim surfaces and this innaccuracy is TIED to the innaccuracy of the flap control inputs. By 'tied' I mean the reason behind it was gamer related and not a limitation of the software or the way these controls actually work in R/L.
Thats all I was saying or trying to say.

AKA_TAGERT
02-10-2007, 08:43 AM
keep trying

TopGunBkk
02-10-2007, 02:33 PM
Sometimes in THE BIG Top
you see a message that reads,"Cheating has been detected", I wouldnt know how to cheat.

Theres forms of cheating like vulching
your on ground some hack blows your plane up and you don't have a chance to take off.

Bearcat99
02-10-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
What's the big deal about trim and control forces? Flying an aeroplane, you simply push/pull the controls to make the aeroplane move as you desire, and if you want to stay at that attitude you adjust the trim so you don't need to put force on the controls to keep the aircraft moving as you desire. What else is there to discuss about trim? It's not really rocket science...

And the current setup in Il-2 appears accurate to me.

I have trim on a slider. (It's a consolation for using a CHProducts yoke with Il-2...) It works the same way I use it in gliders: push control column to hold aircraft in desired attitude, then apply trim until I don't need to push the yoke to keep the aircraft in that position.

Flaps on a slider, in my opinion, is an exploit. Real Spitfire flaps existed in three states: Up, Down 85?, or in transit. So being able to command 45? flap on a Spitfire is unhistorical. Yes, anyone can do it if they have a spare controller axis, but anyone can listen to the enemy's Teamspeak channel and that's cheating... I don't care really - if the enemy's trying to evade me then I've already failed and should probably disengage!

I can concede that on the Spits.... but that is something that can actually be corrected I think.