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WilhelmSchulz.
05-18-2006, 07:08 PM
Russian navy plans "very serious" global exercises (http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060517-020454-5146r)

Sounds Ivan is geting more agressive.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gifCeleon what is realy happening? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Sergeant_Uhanov
05-18-2006, 10:55 PM
stop peeing in your shorts boy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
Russia is slowly rising from the dust, that's what's happening

Celeon999
05-19-2006, 03:23 AM
I think they should spend more attention on paying their soldiers an acceptable salary than pumping the money into expensive exercises and new vessels. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The morale within the russian military is already dead low. Money is only one of the reasonsfor that.

The shortages of housing and other social things for the military personnel is another.

But the biggest problem is the russian military
hierarchy.

The east german army had the same style of "tradition", if you like to call it this way, which lead to over 700 training accidents and about 90 suicides within 15 years.

Im talking about professional soldiers and already higher ranking conscript soldiers using lower ranks or fresh arrived conscript soldiers as their personal servants and an outlet for their frustration.

This is no "tradition" like older veterans often use to call it.

This is simply sick and weakens comeradeship and discipline more than most people seem to care. It spreads hatred and destroys morale.

Or ask what kind of psychological help veterans who served in Chechnya recieve.

The same way the usa treated vietnam veterans. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

A much more wider reformation of the military is necessary. More money alone does not solve the problem.

The_Silent_O
05-19-2006, 05:28 AM
The same way the usa treated vietnam veterans.

CEL be careful what you mean here...The US Government has not ever forgotton the Viet Nam veteran. They are well taken care of through various agencies (Silent_O "senior" is a 30 year veteran who served two tours in Viet Nam). He enjoys a great retirement and exceptional medical benefits at no charge.

Where the Viet Nam veteran got shorted was in public image. The anti-war movement during that time was very powerful, backed by a very liberal Hollywood and media (Think "Apocalyse now" great story, but a misrepresentation of the professional US Army and US Navy).

I think the problem with Russian Army is the word "Conscript" The US Army moved away from a draft to an all volunteer army and most agree that this is a better system. You have people that want to do this job and it is a calling, similar to the priesthood. It is full of rewards but it can be stressful as a career (frequent moves, uncertain futures, etc).

The Silent_O would never have learned to love Germany (all of it) if it wasn't for the US Army. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Celeon999
05-19-2006, 06:11 AM
CEL be careful what you mean here...The US Government has not ever forgotton the Viet Nam veteran. They are well taken care of through various agencies (Silent_O "senior" is a 30 year veteran who served two tours in Viet Nam). He enjoys a great retirement and exceptional medical benefits at no charge.



Yes, but compare the overall treatment from the official side compared to the generous benefits ww-2 veterans received.

The vast majority of soldiers who served in Vietnam were treated like veterans of second class.

Not only the anti-war attitude among the people but also the goverment side treated them with an "vietnam was not really a war afterall" attitude.

Similar to that Korean "police operation" thing.

Or think about the veterans that developed health problems due to exposure of agent orange or other chemicals.

Did they recieved help ? Nope.

They had to go into lawsuits against their own goverment first to get justice. But did they get justice ? Not really.

The U.S department of Veteran Affairs awarded compensation to about 1.800 of 250.000 claimants. The army itself never confessed that they did something wrong neither spoke out an official excuse.

Not to mention other things like the experiements of project MK Ultra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_Ultra) which were also carried out during the vietnam war.

This is what i mean by comparing this with the treatment of russian veterans. There are many similarities.

But now we are already hijacking this thread dont we ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HeibgesU999
05-19-2006, 11:57 AM
From VA Website

About one-third of the adult homeless population have served their country in the Armed Services. On any given day, as many as 200,000 veterans (male and female) are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. Many other veterans are considered near homeless or at risk because of their poverty, lack of support from family and friends, and dismal living conditions in cheap hotels or in overcrowded or substandard housing.

Right now, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during that war -- and a small number of Desert Storm veterans are also appearing in the homeless population. Atlthough many homeless veterans served in combat in Vietnam and suffer from PTSD, at this time, epidemiologic studies do not suggest that there is a causal connection between military service, service in Vietnam, or exposure to combat and homelessness among veterans. Family background, access to support from family and friends, and various personal characteristics (rather than military service) seem to be the stronger indicators of risk of homelessness.

Almost all homeless veterans are male (about three percent are women), the vast majority are single, and most come from poor, disadvantaged backgrounds. Homeless veterans tend to be older and more educated than homeless non-veterans. But similar to the general population of homeless adult males, about 45% of homeless veterans suffer from mental illness and (with considerable overlap) slightly more than 70% suffer from alcohol or other drug abuse problems. Roughly 56% are African American or Hispanic

Thank you Ronald Reagan for dumping Vets on street like garbage.

The_Silent_O
05-19-2006, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
From VA Website

About one-third of the adult homeless population have served their country in the Armed Services. On any given day, as many as 200,000 veterans (male and female) are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. Many other veterans are considered near homeless or at risk because of their poverty, lack of support from family and friends, and dismal living conditions in cheap hotels or in overcrowded or substandard housing.

Right now, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during that war -- and a small number of Desert Storm veterans are also appearing in the homeless population. Atlthough many homeless veterans served in combat in Vietnam and suffer from PTSD, at this time, epidemiologic studies do not suggest that there is a causal connection between military service, service in Vietnam, or exposure to combat and homelessness among veterans. Family background, access to support from family and friends, and various personal characteristics (rather than military service) seem to be the stronger indicators of risk of homelessness.

Almost all homeless veterans are male (about three percent are women), the vast majority are single, and most come from poor, disadvantaged backgrounds. Homeless veterans tend to be older and more educated than homeless non-veterans. But similar to the general population of homeless adult males, about 45% of homeless veterans suffer from mental illness and (with considerable overlap) slightly more than 70% suffer from alcohol or other drug abuse problems. Roughly 56% are African American or Hispanic

Thank you Ronald Reagan for dumping Vets on street like garbage.

HeibgesU999,

Make sure you read closely what you post, because what you posted clearly states:


Family background, access to support from family and friends, and various personal characteristics <span class="ev_code_RED">(rather than military service)</span> seem to be the stronger indicators of risk of homelessness.

In other words, there is a pre-existing characteristic, prior than their military service that makes them more prone to being homeless. It is not the military or their military service that made them that way. It was the military that probably offered them a chance to have a stable career.


But <span class="ev_code_RED">similar to the general population of homeless adult males</span>, about 45% of homeless veterans suffer from mental illness and (with considerable overlap) slightly more than 70% suffer from alcohol or other drug abuse problems.

So the author here is saying that there is no difference in mental illness rates between a homeless veteran and a homeless person. So "big deal".

It's not Ronald Reagan's fault, the VA has been managed by many administrations over the many years. These people are on the street because they cannot operate in a normal society, whether that is their fault or somebody elses is to be argued on a case by case basis. But if 70% have an addiction to alchohol or drugs that's a pretty good indicator that it is their choice they are on the streets.

bunkerratt
05-19-2006, 01:22 PM
ty otto.....semper fi !!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Celeon999
05-19-2006, 01:48 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif It was not Celeons intention to start a controversy . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

It was just ment to be an example http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The_Silent_O
05-19-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif It was not Celeons intention to start a controversy . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

It was just ment to be an example http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No worries, I'll stop...I have a deep love for the career I've chosen and grew up in.

I'm also very sensitive to how people have characterized Viet Nam veterans (my father being one). The media and hollywood would have you believe that many have had failed lives and participated in something they should be ashamed of, when it's quite the opposite. I know many all are successful and proud of their work and service to the nation.

HeibgesU999
05-19-2006, 03:18 PM
I would never disparage any Veterans. Just by the very fact they are veterans, demands that regardless of their history, we should have done everything in our power to help them.

But as a veteran myself, as the son of a decortated WWII combat infantryman (Guadalcanal, Munda, Battle of Ipo Dam) and the nephew of a bomber crewman who spend 2 years in a Luftstalag, I have to remember that most important of creedo:

Never Leave a Man Behind!

That creedo doesn't say:

It's okay to leave a man behind, if his dad was a drunk, or his mother had bi-polar disease, because he was predisposed to being left behind.

We left a lot of men, and a few women, behind, and we left them behind here in there own country.

StgShultz
05-19-2006, 04:12 PM
I think your argument could apply to all veteran's from all countries.
I know my country NZ & Aus & Eng also have poor records for looking after service men, including those that were sent to the atomic tests in the pacific.
Sure they get a couple of extra dollars each week - but never an apology nor decent payouts or help for the families once these guys have died from cancer.
It is the government that hold the purse strings.