PDA

View Full Version : Whats the deal with the unbeatable Spit



Gustavflyer
02-21-2005, 06:33 PM
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later..............

Scragbat
02-21-2005, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
...but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None at all??? I must be flying a different Spit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
02-21-2005, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Its not really faster and more manuverable than a 109. Its very similar to it actually.
2) It looses energy but it looses it slowly. Which is the correct characteristic of the aircraft....how much or how little I don't know, only that comparatively to a high wingloading fighter like a 190 and more or less like a 109 the Spitfire looses less energy. Its got a big wing, its good good wing loading...compair the size of wing on a Spitfire and then have a go at the FW190. Its a bigger difference than most people realize.
3) The lack of energy loss can be a disadvantage. A FW190 pilot can, in a high speed situation for instance, pull much harder and effect a much better manuver than any Spitfire. It can be translated into a zoom climb...one which I think may be overdone but not seriously so. I've lost air battles because I couldn't manage the Spitfires speed and I got too fast. The 109 has the same issue...except that it can bleed energy if the pilot wants to.
4) The Spitfire displays the same characteristics as the Yaks do. They are similar aircraft in some ways (while being diametrically opposed in others) and both are capable of easily sustained turns and climbs that you fight with in other aircraft.

Now, maybe I haven't fought the Spitfire IX enough in recent days but the last time I went on a FW190 stretch and flew nothing but this plane in whatever variant was given to me...I had few troubles with the Spitfire IX's....that was AEP 2.04 and PF3.01. Maybe they changed, maybe its totally overblown now but I've been flying it and it doesn't seem all that different. IT was a **** good plane flying against some **** good opponents. And its really not all that different than its contemporaries...

But nobody ever seems mentions the 109s amazing vertical manuvering...or the FW190s incredible roll rate beyond what the pilot should be physically capable of (nor any other plane for that matter) or the Yak's unbelievable dogfighting capabilities that put the other aircraft to shame when it comes to ease of turn and positional manuvering. The Spitfire is the target...

Read Pierre Closterman, read Arthur Bishop, read any pilot memoire of people who flew the Spitfire in combat. It was one of the best for what they needed it to be.

The Spitfire isn't unbeatable...but its one of the best...and the next time you go to fight it, treat it as the competent and capable opponent that it is.

AND...should it be the case that the aircraft is well exceeding performance specifications then I will be the VERY FIRST person to argue that FM tuning is required. Because the first and foremost thing of a historical simulation of anything is history. Its subjective to a point and you can argue the finer details till we're all blue in the face...but Oleg has the numbers, we've got the numbers, we know whats acceptable and we know by how much all aircraft in the simulation are off by.

Sorry if I have to speak my mind (rather than sugarcoat it) in a big long drawn out thing but this really keeps coming up and it really needs to stop targeting one plane when its some and indeed all of them.

And if you are indeed having trouble taking on the Spitfire maybe the thing to do is ask for help with your air combat skills. I do...all the time. Sometimes it wakes me upto stuff that I was being stupid about before. I'll be the first to sign up and say here's what I do...and you'll get other people who are willing to do the same. ACM isn't a secret...its a finely practiced art and sometimes we all need a kick to get ourselves going again.

I'm really not sure what this meant to be.

MrOblongo
02-21-2005, 09:47 PM
Well physical resistance and the guts of the pilot are things that are not in the game... and those make a HUGE difference in the real life. Maybe a Yak can make a constant 6G turn... but i dont know if someone can stay in that for 10 minutes without a G-Suit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .... my brother flew in a Mirage Pantera and he was puking with 5G and a G-Suit... well hes just a medic anyway, not a pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ..

p1ngu666
02-21-2005, 10:07 PM
spit IX, and 8 should have good all round performance, and they do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
a g2 is equal, and better in some areas than IX, g6as is **** nimble AND **** fast and climb..
g10,g14,k4 all have a large slab of performance in hand, at low level

IX outclimbs 190's at nearly all alts, so it can beat them.

in a equal 1 v 1 fight, its one of the best....

i think theres a mixture of dealusions of grandure on alot of the lw fliers, and lack of knowledge tooo
seen lots of posts like "i thought i only hadto worry about p51 and p47 up high whats this spit doing" spitfire has same engine as a p51, and at any given time, it was one of the best intercepters in the world, certainly at height...

p1ngu666
02-21-2005, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrOblongo:
Well physical resistance and the guts of the pilot are things that are not in the game... and those make a HUGE difference in the real life. Maybe a Yak can make a constant 6G turn... but i dont know if someone can stay in that for 10 minutes without a G-Suit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .... my brother flew in a Mirage Pantera and he was puking with 5G and a G-Suit... well hes just a medic anyway, not a pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there was a post by someone awhile ago, about modeling physical effects... someone wanted oleg to put in fatigue... me and lexx_luther pointed out lots of things that would need tobe modeled too. dont think it pleased some of the bnz crowd http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

pourshot
02-21-2005, 10:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Von_Rat
02-21-2005, 10:20 PM
spit9 had a more realistic fm when it first came out, but the whining was heard all the way to moscow, hence the spit9 we have now.

oh ping666, according to that graph that you yourself posted, the spit9 we have in game is climbing to well hi up.
________________________________________________
seen lots of posts like "i thought i only hadto worry about p51 and p47 up high whats this spit doing" spitfire has same engine as a p51, and at any given time, it was one of the best intercepters in the world, certainly at height...
________________________________________________

there was a post by someone awhile ago, about modeling physical effects... someone wanted oleg to put in fatigue... me and lexx_luther pointed out lots of things that would need tobe modeled too. dont think it pleased some of the bnz crowd
______________________________________________--

fatiuge would affect tnb more than bnz flyers, many times i don't even blackout when doing bnz, if bnz is done right you just don't pull g's like the tnb crowd. im all for modeling fatiuge, force a little relisim in the tnb crowd.

Von_Rat
02-21-2005, 11:00 PM
lol aren't there 2 L's in troll.

TAGERT.
02-22-2005, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Give me a T
Give me a R
Give me a O
Give me a L
Give me a L
What that spell!

WWMaxGunz
02-22-2005, 01:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do know that there is a speed and flat turn for every plane where it does not slow
down in that turn? Be sure that IRL the Spitfire had a tighter best turn than contemporary
109 just from design. Not all pilots who flew them could do that so don't bother with your
favorite stories, rather look to test pilots and official tests than stories you should not
base true understanding on.

Funny but just weeks ago or was it just last week I was reading posts about 7JG77 wiping
up Spits online and saying clearly that Spits have no chance against FW's using the right
tactics. Other people who fly FW's online are saying that too, but not all. And then
come multiple threads declaring Spits as Uber -- it's almost like a reaction.

Here is a story. It is about the Channel fights of Spitfires when the FW's began to show.
Story says the 109's did not stay to fight but the FW's did. 109's hit and ran. What
does that mean?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-22-2005, 01:21 AM
bleh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
ban both Spit MkIX and late bf109's
get rid of those anti grav n00b planes with uber firepower
Late bf109s SUCK
Spitfire MkIX SUCK
now im the only one who says that around here cus im the allied pro luftwaffle ally whiner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
friends let friends fly Jugs or Butchers.fact http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fish6891
02-22-2005, 01:35 AM
Focke-Wulfs pwnzor all of j00z, be sure :]

Fehler
02-22-2005, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
there was a post by someone awhile ago, about modeling physical effects... someone wanted oleg to put in fatigue... me and lexx_luther pointed out lots of things that would need tobe modeled too. dont think it pleased some of the bnz crowd http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it was me. But it is the arcade T&B squad that would suffer more than the B&Z crowd. It does not take much prolonged effort to push a plane into a dive, and other than steep pull-outs not much prolonged effort there either.

But in a turn fight, stick forces can reach heavy loads for longer periods of time. Thus, fatigue.

Now the arguments against adding in a fatigue model were based on utter nonsense. "Well fatigue can be attributed to how long a pilot had been flying, what he ate, his general health condition, blah blah blah." While probably all true in the real world, the variables are just too many to model. That's why I called for an "Average" or best guess Pilot Model by Oleg and his team. What we have now is NO muscular fatigue during maneuvering like all our pilots are stroid ingesting, super-humans that can make continuous flip flop maneuvers without penalty. Is that even close to realistic? No way!

If you modeled the entire game based on exact variables, then each and every plane would be slightly different than the next. Your P51 at start would be slightly different than my P51. An inperfection in your aluminum may make your plane shed it's wings at say 14.765 G's, while another may last to 15.234 G's. Your engine may overheat slightly faster than mine because the cast Iron in mine may have a higher nickel content. The people that assembled your engine may have used been on the lower end of the tolerance chart than mine, and my engine may be built slightly "Tighter" than yours. The truth is, even in planes made at the same factory in sucession, there are minor variances, but this isnt modeled in the game is it? Holy $hit, how do we have engine overheating in the game then? How do we have over-reving? How do we have structural limit damage? Based on your logic, we should'nt have any of those things because they are not exact. But we do have those things because 1C has made a best guess "Average" and applied it to the FM.

So, instead of having a system with some compromise, that would tend to get us closer to reality, we would rather have pilots that can do things a real pilot cannot. But then we scream for accurate flight models? Who cares? A plane doesnt fly itself, and in the game there is no Pilot Model except for the black/red outs. Hey, who is to say that I cant physically take a black out better than you? I have an average heart rate of 48BPM and usually my blood pressure sits at 100/75. I run between 1-5 miles a day. I am kind of tall and thin framed, so I may black out a little faster than a guy with a shorter, squat-ier frame. But that's not modeled! We must make Oleg do away with red/black out effects immediately! How dare he try to add some sort of realism with exact parameters! (Sarcasm)

I am totally convinced that the planes in this game are represented very well. But I am equally convinced that the ability of an average real pilot is not even close. That's why there are so may complaints about "UFO's". "You cant tell me plane X could do that in real life!" Well, plane X flown by a machine that did not feel the effects of gravity, inertia, muscular fatigue, blackout, etc. might have made any plane look like a UFO. Currently we have planes that "Lock up" at high speeds when, for the most part, one whimpy wristed pilot may have felt something was impossible to control, while the next thought it was very tolerable. (Bf109, P-38 for example)

In any event, the game is still fun, but it's a game-u-lation, not a simulation.

As for the Spit in the game... I think it does what a Spit should do, mostly. The question one should be asking him/her self is, could a pilot make the plane do what he/she is observing?

Hey.. if pilot fatigue was not that important... why are most modern fighters fly-by-wire now? I'll give you a hint... So the pilot doesnt have to overcome muscular fatigue in constant maneuvering. And because of that, a computer limits the amount of deflection the control surfaces can have because of that frail little thing called the "Pilot" cant handle what the plane is actually capable of.

Now go play the game and have fun, but dont fool yourself into thinking it's exactly like real air combat.

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2005, 03:18 AM
Fehler, modern fighers are computer controlled because pilots do not have the reaction time to control modern unstable designs. You may be thinking of "hydraulic" or other mechanically boosted controls, which means control limits are needed to prevent the mechanically assisted pilot from breaking the plane.

Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hey..if pilot fatigue was not that important... why are most modern fighters fly-by-wire now? I'll give you a hint... So the pilot doesnt have to overcome muscular fatigue in constant maneuvering. And because of that, a computer limits the amount of deflection the control surfaces can have because of that frail little thing called the "Pilot" cant handle what the plane is actually capable of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found another real life pilot account... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This combat also illustrates that despite its exceptional high altitude performance the P-38 did have limitations fighting the nimble Type 1 fighter at low level. Five of the 9th's pilots encountered a single OSCAR with the following results:

"By this time, the enemy fighters were well thinned out, I saw one below me on the water being worked over by two P-38s. Three more of us joined the party. <span class="ev_code_yellow">For 15 minutes the five of us made pass after pass at this fighter, although we didn€t get it.</span> When he got the opportunity the pilot would straighten momentarily up-coast, sucking us with him. He never seemed to have much throttle on and lazily turned toward us when we got in range, but never came head-on at anyone or fired a shot. Its canopy must have been open the whole time€¦15 minutes of this maneuvering and we returned to base."

Another of the P-38 pilots reported "This pilot was pretty good. He kept close to the water and would turn gradually until we were on him, then would slip down to the water in a tight turn." He also observed, "This Oscar had a green fuselage and brown spots in leopard fashion."

Tuluvu's Air War~> http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/tuluvu/tuluvu_6.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He never seemed to have much throttle on ...

If so, there would not be an issue of stick control forces at low throttle at sea level (ie...no chance to gain high speeds).

Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now the arguments against adding in a fatigue model were based on utter nonsense. "Well fatigue can be attributed to how long a pilot had been flying, what he ate, his general health condition, blah blah blah." <span class="ev_code_yellow">While probably all true in the real world</span>, the variables are just too many to model. That's why I called for an "Average" or best guess Pilot Model by Oleg and his team.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You only call for pure TnB Stamina moddeling. You have to model all forms of pilot fatigue if you model only one to suit the Needs of the internet BnZ Community. If you want to talk about real life Aviation Medicine, its a fascinating topic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I suggest the Angry BnZ simmers fail on the internet dogfight servers because they are not flying BnZ missions with a historical war fighting purpose, much like half a squadron of real life P~38s wasted their efforts on a lone "insane" OSCAR pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Its "okay" I guess if there are no Bettys or Vals around.


Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In any event, the game is still fun, but it's a game-u-lation, not a simulation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When they shoot em down, its a Simulation.
When they get shot down (or can't hit OSCARS), its a Game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I suggest 3.01 aircraft dots made BnZ realistic (and useful) without text icons. That may be what we really need.

KIMURA
02-22-2005, 04:52 AM
Agreed to WWMaxGunz

See the online statistics of Queensland-Server - the box right below. It's easy to see that the 109G-6 fells twice as much to the guns of a Spit than the 190A-6 does. On the opposite, the kill/loss 190A-6 vs. IXc is equal, althought the 190 is much more tricky to fly in combat than the IX. Also the 190A-6kill/loss ratio is 2.14 compared to the 1.81 of the Spit IXc.

http://by.sturmovik.de/index.php?target=stats&lang=DE&s=server

anarchy52
02-22-2005, 05:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
1) Its not really faster and more manuverable than a 109. Its very similar to it actually.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pardon me, which sim are we talking about?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Its got a big wing, its good good wing loading...compair the size of wing on a Spitfire and then have a go at the FW190. Its a bigger difference than most people realize.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OT a bit: P-47 for instance has almost identical wingloading (weight/wing area) as FW-190 and worse powerloading (power/wing area), signifficantly heavier yet does not share FW-190s "high wingload" downsides and energy bleed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3) The lack of energy loss can be a disadvantage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For Bf-109 it is an advantage since it can loose speed and reach it's optimum manuverability speed. 190 on the other hand must keep it's energy to survive. What I personally hate about FB 190 is that while some other heavy fighters which should/were equal/inferior to FW-190 can effectivelly B'n'Z and energy fight while FW-190 is almost always confined to single pass hit & run.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
4) The Spitfire displays the same characteristics as the Yaks do. They are similar aircraft in some ways (while being diametrically opposed in others) and both are capable of easily sustained turns and climbs that you fight with in other aircraft.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, Yugoslav army pilots (Yak-3, Yak-9, Spit IX, Spit XIV (IIRC), P-47) considered Spits signifficantly superior to Yaks due to Yak's tendency to spin even in high speed turns and advised Yak's tactics for fighting Spits should be to keep the fight in vertical. There's much more to fighter's performance then raw wingloading, powerloading and mass.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But nobody ever seems mentions the 109s amazing vertical manuvering...or the FW190s incredible roll rate beyond what the pilot should be physically capable of...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most ac in FB have exgregated roll rates, relative roll rates are on the other hand for most ac although FW-190 seems to less insane rollrate just as pony is not ultramanuverable at high speed any more (still can pull 14G and loose wings, but not 30G as before http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). Unfortunatelly, FW-190 can't really use historical getaway tactics using it's roll rate advantage.

In team vs team 190s have a fair chance even a slight advantage, one-on-one Spit vs 190: only if spit pilot is inexperienced or gets bounced.

Fehler
02-22-2005, 05:23 AM
Lexx, you are totally wrong on several points.

1. The F16 airframe can easily complete maneuvers that a pilot cannot withstand, thus computer controlling the fly-by-wire is necessary. The great thing about fly-by-wire is that a pilot does not have to exert huge amounts of stick force to make tight maneuvers. (That's the wntire purpose of it)The bad thing is that a pilot can, for lack of a better term, oversteer the plane past his physical ability to control it. The plane can make the maneuver that the pilot cannot which would mean crash boom, no more 27 million dollar plane and no more pilot. The computer is there to make sure this does not happen. The F-16 is NOT an unstable airframe like you described in your post; just the opposite. Perhaps you may be confusing the computer system in the B-2 with fly-by-wire of an F-16. The B-2 airframe is too unstable for a pilot to handle, even in level flight, thus the computers are there to make the corrections. This is a complex trade-off because the B-2 is built around stealth at all cost. This no stabalizing control surfaces in the standard fashion. Computers continuously adjust for stabilization instead. Two different issues, both solved by computers, but very different issue indeed.

2. Your pilot account. What does this have to do with the topic of pilot fatigue induced by continuous hard G maneuvering? The account clearly states the evasive maneuvering was done at low throttle and lazy turns followed by tight quick turns to avoid being hit. So where is the continuous high G I am talking about.. Oh there is none.. Duh! You conclude that account with the brilliant statement "If so, there would not be an issue of stick control forces at low throttle at sea level" Great, you agree with my point. No high G, no large amount of fatigue induced, no noticable stamina loss. Perfect, just like we need it in the game. You notice the pilot did not try to evade with continuous tight turning? Your account proves my point entirely. In the game he could have yanked straight back on the stick and spun on his tail for an hour if he wanted. The REAL pilot didnt do that... perhaps because he knew he couldnt?!?!?!?

3. I am not calling for T&B stamina modeling. (However I do find it ironic that modeling of this nature in the game gets the least amount of support from the yank and crankers) I am calling for the induced fatigue that comes with CONTINUOUS HEAVY MANEUVERING FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME. It's not nuclear science. I am not talking about diet, sleep deprivation, and all the cr@p you want to muddy the waters with because you must like unrealistic flight simulation. If you have ever lifted weights, you would know that you cant simply keep lifting heavy forever without getting tired. You can do it in the game though, through continuous high G maneuvers. It's not even remotely realistic and the maneuvers you see online all day and night attest to this.

It's really a moot point anyway because the IL2 game engine is on it's last legs and the developer is working on bigger and better things.

Let me ask you bluntly, do you or do you not want the planes, as well as the maneuvers one could actually make in these planes, to act in the manner they did in real life?

If the elevator was heavy in a Bf109 at high speeds over 400MPH, we all want that modeled because it was a real issue for the 109 pilot. The elevator locked up because a normal pilot could not pull hard enough to overcome the forces on the control surface, correct? It was not because the cables suddenly became shorter and thus the stick wouldnt travel as far. It was because a real pilot cound not, through leverage and strength, manipulate the aircraft in the manner necessary for easy pull-out, prior to compression that is.

We all want that in the game.. it's realistic or so they say.

Sometimes bombers would have to make steep dives to extinguish engine fires. At times, the angle required was so steep that it would require the strength of both the pilot and co-pilot to pull off the maneuver. So after pulling on 50-70 pounds of pressure for a long period of time, you are in effect saying that you like the ability to do it endlessly in the game? Then in the same breath you talk about historic accuracy and simulation?

If your position is purely based on the thought that since we cant model all the variables of fatigue, then we should model none of them, then why do you fly IL2? Blackouts are a variable of fatigue. That's why some people in real life, with proper conditioning and training are able to withstand higher G stress than others of basically similar physical attributes.

We already have compromises in the game that make an attempt to further the "Simulation of air combat." I mentioned some of them earlier in this thread. No simulation can model every single aspect of flight from metalurgy to medicine and every variable in between. But to ignore such an important portion of air combat is insane in my opinion.

Whether you wish to believe this or not:

Real men could not make some of the continuous maneivers we see in the game now without penalty. (Fact)

A system that reduces a virtual pilot's ability to make these unrealistic maneuvers continuously for long periods of time, would further the simulation of air combat that this game is trying to represent. (Fact)

That system, although not perfect, would be a great addition to the game. There are other ideas like this already in place; headshake, blackout/redout, etc. They are not perfect either but do add a great deal to the experience. (Fact)

And lastly... Tellatubbies are the devil! (Fact!) ROFL

MEGILE
02-22-2005, 05:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

DarthBane_
02-22-2005, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Its not really faster and more manuverable than a 109. Its very similar to it actually.
2) It looses energy but it looses it slowly. Which is the correct characteristic of the aircraft....how much or how little I don't know, only that comparatively to a high wingloading fighter like a 190 and more or less like a 109 the Spitfire looses less energy. Its got a big wing, its good good wing loading...compair the size of wing on a Spitfire and then have a go at the FW190. Its a bigger difference than most people realize.
3) The lack of energy loss can be a disadvantage. A FW190 pilot can, in a high speed situation for instance, pull much harder and effect a much better manuver than any Spitfire. It can be translated into a zoom climb...one which I think may be overdone but not seriously so. I've lost air battles because I couldn't manage the Spitfires speed and I got too fast. The 109 has the same issue...except that it can bleed energy if the pilot wants to.
4) The Spitfire displays the same characteristics as the Yaks do. They are similar aircraft in some ways (while being diametrically opposed in others) and both are capable of easily sustained turns and climbs that you fight with in other aircraft.

Now, maybe I haven't fought the Spitfire IX enough in recent days but the last time I went on a FW190 stretch and flew nothing but this plane in whatever variant was given to me...I had few troubles with the Spitfire IX's....that was AEP 2.04 and PF3.01. Maybe they changed, maybe its totally overblown now but I've been flying it and it doesn't seem all that different. IT was a **** good plane flying against some **** good opponents. And its really not all that different than its contemporaries...

But nobody ever seems mentions the 109s amazing vertical manuvering...or the FW190s incredible roll rate beyond what the pilot should be physically capable of (nor any other plane for that matter) or the Yak's unbelievable dogfighting capabilities that put the other aircraft to shame when it comes to ease of turn and positional manuvering. The Spitfire is the target...

Read Pierre Closterman, read Arthur Bishop, read any pilot memoire of people who flew the Spitfire in combat. It was one of the best for what they needed it to be.

The Spitfire isn't unbeatable...but its one of the best...and the next time you go to fight it, treat it as the competent and capable opponent that it is.

AND...should it be the case that the aircraft is well exceeding performance specifications then I will be the VERY FIRST person to argue that FM tuning is required. Because the first and foremost thing of a historical simulation of anything is history. Its subjective to a point and you can argue the finer details till we're all blue in the face...but Oleg has the numbers, we've got the numbers, we know whats acceptable and we know by how much all aircraft in the simulation are off by.

Sorry if I have to speak my mind (rather than sugarcoat it) in a big long drawn out thing but this really keeps coming up and it really needs to stop targeting one plane when its some and indeed all of them.

And if you are indeed having trouble taking on the Spitfire maybe the thing to do is ask for help with your air combat skills. I do...all the time. Sometimes it wakes me upto stuff that I was being stupid about before. I'll be the first to sign up and say here's what I do...and you'll get other people who are willing to do the same. ACM isn't a secret...its a finely practiced art and sometimes we all need a kick to get ourselves going again.

I'm really not sure what this meant to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very long post. But the fact is: spit is ufo in this game. You should watch the title of the thread, instead you whine about other planes not mentioned in title. Make your own thread and then whine about 109 and 190. And things got out of hand with spit FM data. Someone mistaken it with x-wing. That is ok for some funboys but it should be banned from servers untill it is fixed. Not a small fix.

ImpStarDuece
02-22-2005, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Lexx, you are totally wrong on several points.

1. The F16 airframe can easily complete maneuvers that a pilot cannot withstand, thus computer controlling the fly-by-wire is necessary. The great thing about fly-by-wire is that a pilot does not have to exert huge amounts of stick force to make tight maneuvers. (That's the wntire purpose of it)The bad thing is that a pilot can, for lack of a better term, oversteer the plane past his physical ability to control it. The plane can make the maneuver that the pilot cannot which would mean crash boom, no more 27 million dollar plane and no more pilot. The computer is there to make sure this does not happen. The F-16 is NOT an unstable airframe like you described in your post; just the opposite. Perhaps you may be confusing the computer system in the B-2 with fly-by-wire of an F-16. The B-2 airframe is too unstable for a pilot to handle, even in level flight, thus the computers are there to make the corrections. This is a complex trade-off because the B-2 is built around stealth at all cost. This no stabalizing control surfaces in the standard fashion. Computers continuously adjust for stabilization instead. Two different issues, both solved by computers, but very different issue indeed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I agree with Lexx's description of modern fighter jets, including of the F-16. The F-16 was one of the first "relaxed stability" airframes. Another name for it is 'dynamic instability'. The F-16 NEEDS a computer automated flight-controls system jus to keep it flying right. The upshot of this is an extreemly manuverable airframe, the downside is that a human pilot simply cannot properly control the aiframe without assistance from the FBW technology.

VFA195-MaxPower
02-22-2005, 07:02 AM
I must agree with ImpStarDuece. From what I understand, the F16 is only flyable by a human because of the computer input to the control surfaces. The F16 has no back-up mechanical link from the stick to the control surfaces because, in the event of a computer failure, the F16 will invariably fall out of control.

Fehler
02-22-2005, 07:53 AM
Well, I will have to ask my brother in law to explain it again, but I distinctly recall him talking about a pilot's ability to over control the aircraft because it is so nimble and the airframe can way outperform what a pilot can do in it, thus the need for the computer system. I am aware that there is no mechanical redundancy for the controls and the plane relies completely on electrical inputs.

By the way, my brother-in-law is in the Singapore Air Force and is one of the lead technical liasons to the US. (Talk about a great gig... he gets to come over here to the US and is paid a salary on top of his own for 6 months every other year [US tax free] just to tinker with new technology that Singapore leases from the US Government, and to keep up to date on the F16!) He makes a killing and has a blast... plus we get to see him often.

Unfortunately, English is not always his strength, and I am sure he simplified his descriptions to me since I am not an aircraft mechanic.

I do remember those planes "Lawn darting" when they first came into the inventory but I think that had to do more with the power plant than the airframe and computer.

p1ngu666
02-22-2005, 08:13 AM
well, we mentioned fatigue of constant high alt flying, and need to correct course (hold rudder and alirons)

u could put in purposing, and other rapid movements make pilot feel ill, and loose strength...

i think 190 had that problem if u used max roll rate, imagine if u was spun round that quick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

in my dads fs2004, alot of jets have mental roll rates, but elivators are like a p38's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

von_rat, ill look into that when i can, but i think i choose a test prop, and as the alt's listed in the test didnt all match up, there are less dots, so u dont get a curve...

tobe fair, ill look into the k4's climb rate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

when i fly the spitfire, it doesnt feel uber, when i fly against it, yeah theres some uberness

still, at most onwhine heights, a fw190, or 109 can outspeed it, 109 probably outclimb it too

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2005, 08:32 AM
Hey Fehler.

These pilot accounts only show real life is not as "simple" as pilots automatically getting tired from avoiding BnZ attacks -- I say this because its the internet BnZ dogfighters who post they are "sick and tired"(tm) of their targets evading them when they start theads about wanting TnB Stamina modded. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BnZ Tip:: I wonder if most successful historical BnZ attacks against fighters involved a target that never saw the attacking BnZ plane. This has nothing to do with internet dogfight servers (text icons and stuff like that).

A realistic combat sim would model at least the more important aspects of Aviation Medicine, and pilot fatigue from maneuver falls under this.

--

pingu, I just thought of another one...high altitude exposure to Cosmic Rays... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Cosmic Ray Stamina

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-22-2005, 08:43 AM
I find that the FW-190 can have a pretty good acceleration in even a slight dive.

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarthBane_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Its not really faster and more manuverable than a 109. Its very similar to it actually.
2) It looses energy but it looses it slowly. Which is the correct characteristic of the aircraft....how much or how little I don't know, only that comparatively to a high wingloading fighter like a 190 and more or less like a 109 the Spitfire looses less energy. Its got a big wing, its good good wing loading...compair the size of wing on a Spitfire and then have a go at the FW190. Its a bigger difference than most people realize.
3) The lack of energy loss can be a disadvantage. A FW190 pilot can, in a high speed situation for instance, pull much harder and effect a much better manuver than any Spitfire. It can be translated into a zoom climb...one which I think may be overdone but not seriously so. I've lost air battles because I couldn't manage the Spitfires speed and I got too fast. The 109 has the same issue...except that it can bleed energy if the pilot wants to.
4) The Spitfire displays the same characteristics as the Yaks do. They are similar aircraft in some ways (while being diametrically opposed in others) and both are capable of easily sustained turns and climbs that you fight with in other aircraft.

Now, maybe I haven't fought the Spitfire IX enough in recent days but the last time I went on a FW190 stretch and flew nothing but this plane in whatever variant was given to me...I had few troubles with the Spitfire IX's....that was AEP 2.04 and PF3.01. Maybe they changed, maybe its totally overblown now but I've been flying it and it doesn't seem all that different. IT was a **** good plane flying against some **** good opponents. And its really not all that different than its contemporaries...

But nobody ever seems mentions the 109s amazing vertical manuvering...or the FW190s incredible roll rate beyond what the pilot should be physically capable of (nor any other plane for that matter) or the Yak's unbelievable dogfighting capabilities that put the other aircraft to shame when it comes to ease of turn and positional manuvering. The Spitfire is the target...

Read Pierre Closterman, read Arthur Bishop, read any pilot memoire of people who flew the Spitfire in combat. It was one of the best for what they needed it to be.

The Spitfire isn't unbeatable...but its one of the best...and the next time you go to fight it, treat it as the competent and capable opponent that it is.

AND...should it be the case that the aircraft is well exceeding performance specifications then I will be the VERY FIRST person to argue that FM tuning is required. Because the first and foremost thing of a historical simulation of anything is history. Its subjective to a point and you can argue the finer details till we're all blue in the face...but Oleg has the numbers, we've got the numbers, we know whats acceptable and we know by how much all aircraft in the simulation are off by.

Sorry if I have to speak my mind (rather than sugarcoat it) in a big long drawn out thing but this really keeps coming up and it really needs to stop targeting one plane when its some and indeed all of them.

And if you are indeed having trouble taking on the Spitfire maybe the thing to do is ask for help with your air combat skills. I do...all the time. Sometimes it wakes me upto stuff that I was being stupid about before. I'll be the first to sign up and say here's what I do...and you'll get other people who are willing to do the same. ACM isn't a secret...its a finely practiced art and sometimes we all need a kick to get ourselves going again.

I'm really not sure what this meant to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very long post. But the fact is: spit is ufo in this game. You should watch the title of the thread, instead you whine about other planes not mentioned in title. Make your own thread and then whine about 109 and 190. And things got out of hand with spit FM data. Someone mistaken it with x-wing. That is ok for some funboys but it should be banned from servers untill it is fixed. Not a small fix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
See...posts like this one and the people who write like that are part of the problem I'm aiming at in my post here.

The problems are not Spitfire specific...but people like to make them be. I don't even want to guess why.

So yes its entirely valid to bring up other aircraft in the discussion because the original point of the discussion is incorrect in its basic formulation.

So do tell us all how the Spitfire IS a UFO because people sound very certain and then come out and say NOTHING at all. Oh sorry...apparently its an X-Wing. Whatever that means (I get the pop culture reference). Or they make some vague assumptions. You guys aren't convincing me one bit...not a bit.

Ironically enough, attempts may be made to lable me as a fanboy but frankly I fly the Spitfire as much as I fly the FW190 and I enjoy both immensely as impressive and powerful fighting machines. Frankly, there are some days I wonder if my FW190 is overmodeled....because the Spitfires I shot down had no chance....none at all. So much for being UFOs...

MOhz
02-22-2005, 09:46 AM
Hi guys, I do not want to intervene here, but concerning Lexx and Fehler: you are both right! There are actually different types of Fly-By-Wire, and what you guys have said are both incorporated in the F16. You guys can check it out at www.howstuffworks.com (http://www.howstuffworks.com). Just search for fly-by-wire and they give you informative but overlookable info over 5 short pages.

I personnally would prefer adding "fatigue" modelling.

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2005, 09:58 AM
Thanks, and Fehler and I may have found a point to agree on (and I "forgot" to post about mmm)...

That P~38 pilot wrote that the OSCAR looked like it was going at low throttle, so stick forces and gee forces may not have been very tiring. Of course we really need the "insane" OSCAR pilot's account. However, in his book, Saburo has a similar account when he evaded BnZ attacks by 16 Hellcats during a 30 minute period of momentary Insanity.

Maintaining high speed and manuevering, BnZ pilots may get exhausted from control forces and gee forces earlier than low speed TnB pilots doing slow speed manuevers.


________________________________
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/smiliegenerator/ablage/96/84.png

BlackShrike
02-22-2005, 11:18 AM
back to topic. original thread starter. the spits are NOT faster than 109s and 190s and doras.
In fact LW planes can always pull away from spits when everyone flys correct.

anytime i fly a spit i can not catch any lw plane.

to gain an edge on fws and ME109 the spit really has to get to about 7k high.

also another posting earlier...
"Here is a story. It is about the Channel fights of Spitfires when the FW's began to show.
Story says the 109's did not stay to fight but the FW's did. 109's hit and ran. What
does that mean?"

...this means the FW190 had alot more fuel than the me109. dur.

JG7_Rall
02-22-2005, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MOhz:
Hi guys, I do not want to intervene here, but concerning Lexx and Fehler: you are both right! There are actually different types of Fly-By-Wire, and what you guys have said are both incorporated in the F16. You guys can check it out at http://www.howstuffworks.com. Just search for fly-by-wire and they give you informative but overlookable info over 5 short pages.

I personnally would prefer adding "fatigue" modelling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes!

Fehler's overall description of Fly-by-Wire is pretty accurate. However, in the case of the F16 specifically, if the computers weren't there to correct the plane constantly and keep it stable, it would flip up violently because it's tail heavy and, at speeds high enough, would literally fall apart from such violent G forces. This is true in some other jets too, but you guys were specifically talking about the F16 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

TooCooL34
02-22-2005, 12:20 PM
Spit.. uber.. I think its gunsight is too uber! I don't care their maneuvers. I can turn on a dime in spit but their biggest advantage is their gunsight is almost no cockpit view!

If it can't be modified cause it really was then remove the bar in my 190 or at least implement 6DOF just in 190! With ages, my Force is depleted I can't predict foe's path under the bar any more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Von_Rat
02-22-2005, 12:37 PM
excellant post fehler.

except for that part about tele tubbies,,,
TELE TUBBIES ARE 13337 ROXXERS,,,LOL.

i don't know how you guys do BNZ, but when i do it its very relexed way of flying, no hard turns, no hard pull outs. nice gentle
turning arc's. usually i don't even accelerrate hard in my dives. theres no way it could be more fatiuging than these insane yank and bank fests i see.

hell the most stessfull part of the way i fly bnz is the split second timing of my shooting as i fly by target.

yes 190s and late 109s have higher top speed than spit, but spits have very,,, cough,,, generous,, cough,,,gag,,, e retention and accellaration, so that top speed advantage is often totally useless.

TooCooL34
02-22-2005, 12:52 PM
Anyway, I agree with you Fehler. It's the man factor, not the machine factor that ruins this game. 99% correct reproduction of an a/c FM is just a dream and not possible. (I don't need that.) Limited pilot ability is more realistic and easier job.

p1ngu666
02-22-2005, 12:52 PM
your flying higher, probably longer (on a dogfight server anyways)
flying faster requires greater mental effort too

but flying high has it advantages too..

Von_Rat
02-22-2005, 12:58 PM
flying faster if your not pulling g's, only requires much greater mental effort if your near somthing, relatively speaking.
anyway i thought we were talking about physical stress.

TooCooL34
02-22-2005, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
flying faster if your not pulling g's, only requires much greater mental effort if your near somthing, relatively speaking.
anyway i thought we were talking about physical stress. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think p1ngu got wrong thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
See post below, 'A-A theory'

StellarRat
02-22-2005, 01:02 PM
The Spit is not a UFO. It has strengths and weaknesses. If you stay around to T and B with it in a 190 or 109 then you're a fool. If you B and Z it you'll do alright. I've seen plenty of Spits get shot down online. I've shot down lots of Spits in a variety of different planes online. Historically, the Spit was very easy to fly and it was a REALLY good dogfighter, one of the best, so don't dogfight with it, make your attack run and leave.

Nubarus
02-22-2005, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Spit.. uber.. I think its gunsight is too uber! I don't care their maneuvers. I can turn on a dime in spit but their biggest advantage is their gunsight is almost no cockpit view! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This debate is pretty old really and the first cockpit shots posted regarding the Spitfire where really bad.
The gunsight was positioned way too low so I send an email to a British WWII museum and asked if they could provide me with a clear view of the Spitfire gunsight viewed from inside the cockpit.

I got a mail back with a picture and according to this picture the Spitfire gunsight was re-positioned accordingly.

So I don't really see what proof you want to put up against this to show that the gunsight in the Spitfire in FB is incorrect.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/pages/Spitfire-Gun-Sight-2.html

SeminoleX
02-22-2005, 04:50 PM
Since I only shoot down Sptifires and never fly them I couldn't say if they are over modeled in their capabilities or not. Pity that.

p1ngu666
02-22-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCooL34:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
flying faster if your not pulling g's, only requires much greater mental effort if your near somthing, relatively speaking.
anyway i thought we were talking about physical stress. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think p1ngu got wrong thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
See post below, 'A-A theory' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

true, i was thinkin of navigation and stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bearcat99
02-22-2005, 09:17 PM
Read this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=4391038382).

Badsight.
02-22-2005, 09:22 PM
just did & hes wrong

p1ngu666
02-22-2005, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
just did & hes wrong <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 10:03 PM
We have such reasoned posters, don't we. Good link BTW!

darkhorizon11
02-22-2005, 10:36 PM
Luftwhiners unite!

Earth! - whines that no plane carrying that amount of firepower can accelerate that fast!

Fire! -the whiner of the Spits "infinite" energy!

Wind! -whiner that the Spit can't be fast at all altitudes!

Water! -whines there MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SPIT BECAUSE HE CAN'T SHOOT IT DOWN EVERYTIME WITH HIS EYES CLOSED

With our forces combined we are Captain Pla... errr, Erich Hartmann! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TooCooL34
02-22-2005, 11:40 PM
Ooops, I didn't say Spit's gunsight was wrong. It's wonderfully made right!
I was just talking about.. *cough*.. 19... gunsi..*cough*.. 6dof.. bar... *cough*. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-23-2005, 01:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Luftwhiners unite!

Earth! - whines that no plane carrying that amount of firepower can accelerate that fast!

Fire! -the whiner of the Spits "infinite" energy!

Wind! -whiner that the Spit can't be fast at all altitudes!

Water! -whines there MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SPIT BECAUSE HE CAN'T SHOOT IT DOWN EVERYTIME WITH HIS EYES CLOSED

With our forces combined we are Captain Pla... errr, Erich Hartmann! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dude you missed out heart!

MEGILE
02-23-2005, 05:17 AM
Spit is uber and I hate it

Why can't I outturn it in my BF-109?!?! Rall did, but not me.. wtf?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
Oleg has it wrong.
Spitfire is one of the greats, but not the greatest.... until the XIV.

DingleRoad
02-23-2005, 06:06 AM
I you don't like it, the solution is as was told to Goering in 1940.
Get yourself a Spitfire ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tigertalon
02-23-2005, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Read http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=4391038382. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice read. Good pilot.

However, I cannot support the idea that it is the pilot and not the plane. Once, on an unrestricted plane set DF server, where we were all flying Spits, Ki84s, K4s, La7s, Yak3s, I jumped into, guess, J8A!

I shot down at least ten Yak3s and La7s, before getting myself shot down (by Ki84c). Because they can outturn almost everything (and is all they know how to do), they tried to turn against me - in J8A!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Those were obviously all noob pilots.

But if you fly Bf109E and meet pilot, which has good experience in yak3, you WILL go down, no matter how good you are. I flied Yak3 in this sim maybe twice in my life, yet I am ready to take this bird against you in your Bf109E every day of the week and I claim that I will win you 5:1 at least. If not, you get... em... not 100$, because I don't want the thread locked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but a large pizza and a beer. Deal?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-23-2005, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
Spit is uber and I hate it

Why can't I outturn it in my BF-109?!?! Rall did, but not me.. wtf?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
Oleg has it wrong.
Spitfire is one of the greats, but not the greatest.... until the XIV. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bleh always the same with you luftwaffle whine willy's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LilHorse
02-23-2005, 11:33 AM
You guys could have saved yourselves a lot of keyboard clatter had you just paid attention to Tagert's post on the first page.

Has anybody else noticed that the original poster has not shown up here again?

He's a TROLL!

x__CRASH__x
02-23-2005, 01:09 PM
JG27_Gustav isn't a troll. Look at his posts. Only 12. He's just frustrated with some of the **** he sees online. I see it to. Spit is a tough nut to crack. I haven't found a place that it deosn't fight well. No matter what altitude I meet one at, it will always out manuver me and out 'E' me unless the pilot makes a mistake. And that is how I force my kill. I try to put him in a situation where he will take the spit out of it's envelope. But often I can't do that, and I can't handle one alone.

JG27*CRASH

HellToupee
02-23-2005, 01:22 PM
wanna shoot one down, wait till it latches on the tail of the friendly and then go after him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif works for me unless the 109 the spits chasing trys to outturn it but only succeeds in out turning me the 190 trying to help him and i cant shoot the spitty.

LStarosta
02-23-2005, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:

fact <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You think you're being funny by stealing my catch phrase?

x__CRASH__x
02-23-2005, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HellToupee:
wanna shoot one down, wait till it latches on the tail of the friendly and then go after him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif works for me unless the 109 the spits chasing trys to outturn it but only succeeds in out turning me the 190 trying to help him and i cant shoot the spitty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or worse yet, you tell your wingman to to straighten out so you can get off a shot. You fire at the spit and slice off his wing. But with the wing gone, the other rounds slices off your wingman's wing. 2 kills, 1 pull of the trigger.

That has happened to me twice. Now all my squadmates turn real real hard trying to avoid the spitfire behind them, and MY fire as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

sunflower1
02-23-2005, 02:25 PM
I saw a blue pilot call out "3 Omnithopters in sight" and I knew what he meant immediately. Fun plane to fly.

LilHorse
02-23-2005, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
JG27_Gustav isn't a troll. Look at his posts. Only 12. He's just frustrated with some of the **** he sees online. I see it to. Spit is a tough nut to crack. I haven't found a place that it deosn't fight well. No matter what altitude I meet one at, it will always out manuver me and out 'E' me unless the pilot makes a mistake. And that is how I force my kill. I try to put him in a situation where he will take the spit out of it's envelope. But often I can't do that, and I can't handle one alone.

JG27*CRASH <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe me, Crash, I know how hard it is. The thing is, everybody does. IRL I love the Spit. But in game I'm usually up against it. And even when I fly Allied I don't take it up. I prefer something more challenging. It really is a plane that your average Joe can look like Johnny Johnson in.

But coming here and whining (once again, I'm mostly a 109 flyer) because Spits hand out the a$$ in a DF room or scripted server (which these days are little more than DF rooms) is something that we hear a lot of. If it really bothers ppl then they have to resort to the tried and true where LW is concerned. Teamwork and BnZ. And when things get dicey, get the heck outta Dodge.

I'd still rather take my lumps in a 109 with pods slung underneath than rack up the kills in an insta-ace ride.

x__CRASH__x
02-23-2005, 03:17 PM
People do silly things when they get angry. I got rammed by a fellow blue in War Clouds when he was trying to shoot over my shoulder at the P-51 I had been twisting with for almost a minute. I got upset and typed out a potty word. Sparx was there and showed me the door. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-23-2005, 03:57 PM
Spit meet 109K4...Spit you dropped something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif IMO the 109 family has one of the biggest advantages in the game...the ability to slow down to all but a stop on command. "Accurate? Probably not" But this is a huge advantage in scissors, break hard left cut the throttle, break hard right throttle up, repeat as necessary. Few planes in the game can match the 109s ability to come to a stop and accelerate. And when you are talking 109K4 if you are getting caught by Spits you are doing something wrong. Is the Spit overmodeled? Ill leave that to you self-proclaimed experts. Nonetheless it is very beatable. IMHO ofcoarse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Franzen
02-23-2005, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
IS this plane modeled correctly, I mean it flies like a jet. I know it was faster and more manuverable than a 109 but the Spit does not lose ANY energy at all. It can fly level and straight and then just shoot upward like a rocket and not skip a beat. It seems too much for me. A mediocre pilot can fly this thing and literally be unbeatable, I am curious, I think it is overdone. Perhaps I am wrong so some enlightenment would be nice, later.............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Give me a _T_
Give me a _R_
Give me a _O_
Give me a _L_
Give me a _L_
What that spell! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, a historical moment, for once Tagert and I agree. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Gustavflyer
02-23-2005, 10:05 PM
Troll? I ask a question and am accused of trolling. I have shot down many spits in WC, however it is the plane to beat in the game right now. All you "troll" calling guys, that's your opinion and I will not do any name calling in return. See I am a nice pilot.

p1ngu666
02-23-2005, 10:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
Troll? I ask a question and am accused of trolling. I have shot down many spits in WC, however it is the plane to beat in the game right now. All you "troll" calling guys, that's your opinion and I will not do any name calling in return. See I am a nice pilot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hm that or a g6as or k4. i dont think 190 is the leading lw plane atm, it was awhile ago tho.
and yes i know theres lots of good 190 fliers about etc etc http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-23-2005, 10:43 PM
wtf is with the german whines??? seriously its getting so annoying especially when the german ac are the best planes in the game.

x__CRASH__x
02-24-2005, 01:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
wtf is with the german whines??? seriously its getting so annoying especially when the german ac are the best planes in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*kkkkssssshhhhtt* Kettle! Come in Kettle! This is Pot! Over! *kkkssshhhttt*


Serious Leadspitter. I've been on comms with you in War Clouds. We're all using the comms to fight. You did nothing but complain about the 190. And maybe the 109 too for all I know. I try not to pay attention to you.

WOLFMondo
02-24-2005, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
wtf is with the german whines??? seriously its getting so annoying especially when the german ac are the best planes in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They all balance out in the end although the guys who always 100% of the time fly blue whine about the red planes and the guys who 100% of the time fly red whine about the blue planes mainly owing to the fact they never ever fly for the other side.

I've learnt to live with the fact not all these planes are 100% accurate but Oleg&team know a darn sight more than 99% of us on these boards about these planes and how planes fly etc so I can live with that.

Fish6891
02-24-2005, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
wtf is with the german whines??? seriously its getting so annoying especially when the german ac are the best planes in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They all balance out in the end although the guys who always 100% of the time fly blue whine about the red planes and the guys who 100% of the time fly red whine about the blue planes mainly owing to the fact they never ever fly for the other side.

I've learnt to live with the fact not all these planes are 100% accurate but Oleg&team know a darn sight more than 99% of us on these boards about these planes and how planes fly etc so I can live with that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Balanced?! HA! YoU nIcE?! 190s and TA OWN this sim!!!!!111111oneoneone11o1neo1neeneon111eno1eo1

Fish6891
02-24-2005, 05:29 AM
Ok my previous post was simply in reply to Mondo, but now i've gone ahead and read about 5 of the posts that came b4 Mondo's....

Seriously guys, who cares how good the Spit or 109 is? If you're in a spit FW is gonna shoot you down, there is nothing you can do, and if you're in a 109 FW will TK you for kicks. These aircraft are simply inferior to the 190, and so the inevitable becomes.

MEGILE
02-24-2005, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>if you're in a 109 FW will TK you for kicks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fish, j00 knowz it!

BBB_Hyperion
02-24-2005, 06:34 AM
Pssst Fish this thread is about unbeatable Spitfire. The archivement of shooting down a unbeatable plane is far greater than shooting down a inferior one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif. In this context spit must be unbeatable to blame the spit pilots beeing a inferior Pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif when getting shoot down and beeing average when shooting other planes but never good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Conclusion a downed Spit is an archivement => A Plane that got shoot down by spit was something a average pilot could archive and dont needs to be mentioned.

So to boost morale Spit must be unbeatable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Enjoy the time until Spit 14 arrives http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MEGILE
02-24-2005, 06:48 AM
Imagine SpitIX with +25 Boost.. it would bring a whole new meaning to UBER.

WOLFMondo
02-24-2005, 07:14 AM
Fish you n00b http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, those 109's are gonna be auderves and an appetizer for the Tempest, Ta's an apertif, the 190A's a main course and the D9s a little dessert. BF110's nothing more than an after dinner mint!:P

You got the FW tk for kicks the wrong way round:P...unless you fly for a certain squad who's favorite hobby is to Tkhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

geetarman
02-24-2005, 07:50 AM
It's ok Gus- you can always come back to your old flying mates on the red side. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We miss ya! Worrky and PAgan say hi

Franzen
02-24-2005, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
Troll? I ask a question and am accused of trolling. I have shot down many spits in WC, however it is the plane to beat in the game right now. All you "troll" calling guys, that's your opinion and I will not do any name calling in return. See I am a nice pilot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did he call us "troll calling guyz"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Where are the mods when you need'em? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
But on a serious note, I've found the spits and spit pilots quite easy to shoot down. No, I'm not trolling, that is actually my experience. When I fly blue I fly Fw190A4 or the Bf109G2. When I fly red, I fly the spits. I do think the spit has some good qualities but to be honest, it hasn't been the pilots I've met.
IMHO, the spit has only two good qualities, first, the guns, Very nice. Second, the low stall speed, very nice for TnB. But compared to the 109 and 190, it's not enough. These two planes can get in and out on the spit so easily. As long as you stay out of the spits crosshairs, you'll be fine, and it isn't difficult to do so.
But when I fly the spit, I can down a lot of 109s. The 190s are very hard to beat cause they are too fast, in the right hands.

Simply put, it's the pilot, not the plane. If the spit is shooting you down, you are doing something wrong. I don't know about reality but in this game the spit is not better. You can't blame the spit, it must be something else then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 10:38 AM
The new MK. VIII CW pwns joo!

I've been flying this sweet aircraft for the past month and she does it all. Climbs up to meet those scaredy cat 109s and FWs, out turns everything it can't out run and out runs anything it can't out turn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As for the 109 slow down BS, when a Mk. VIII CW Ace gets on yer a*s*s, using manual prop pitch with a button assigned to instant zero pitch and a quick zero throttle, the CW's roll rate becomes the deciding factor in any scissors with a 109.

I laugh at 109s online no matter who is flying them. Although, that sweet little 109-G2 still has a soft spot in my heart. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 11:00 AM
Usual outcome for LW pilots against my Mk. VIII

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/9954/ace056fo.jpg

MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Von_Rat
02-24-2005, 11:24 AM
you guys realize that if they lower the drag on 09s so that they don't slow down so fast, that they would retain e much better. you can't have it both ways. i for one would love to give up some drag, even though i couldnt slow down as fast, i would retain e better.

HayateAce
02-24-2005, 11:31 AM
I agree with original poster that teh 109 has arcade flight model like kids game.

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newse/may/nazi2.jpg

"Luftwaffles want to believe."

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 12:16 PM
The funny thing about 109s is that they were never this good at turning in the game and could never retain the turning circles they do now, but somewhere in AEP, the LuftWhiners must have gotten to Oleg and he succumbed.

I like the fact that the 109s can hang with the Allied/Russian birds nowadays in T and B, because it makes it more of a challenge for me, but they have changed.

I'll tell ya my number one reason that proves why Oleg is not biased abut Russian planes in this sim...the Yak 3 went from IL2-Uber to goober somewhere in FB and hasn't come back since. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As for the current La-7s against the Mk. VIII CW:

(Sung to the tune of Old Gray Mare)

The old La-7 it ain't what is used to be,
ain't what it used to be, ain't what it used to be.

The old La-7 it ain't what is used to be,
the Mk. VIII pwns it nowwwwwwww.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Von_Rat
02-24-2005, 02:16 PM
spit9s weren't good as they are now at turning when they 1st came out either. monumental whining ensued and poof it was changed.

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-24-2005, 02:24 PM
I have a question. Why after all these years in this sim where most seem to be adults has the phase from the teenage FPS crowd "pwned jooz" been showing up so often? I even see it in HL chat. Come on fellas I been around for awhile and I know that you are able to articulate what you have to say better then that. Most of you are far to clever and have too much wit for that ****.

IMHO ofcoarse.

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-24-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Usual outcome for LW pilots against my Mk. VIII

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/9954/ace056fo.jpg

MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly Warclouds abit. I think you will find your Spit dies just as easy. Its time to move out of the arcade servers Slick. You been around long enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nubarus
02-24-2005, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
spit9s weren't good as they are now at turning when they 1st came out either. monumental whining ensued and poof it was changed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your post is based on what?

All I see so far is whining from you about apparent whining.

If the turn rate wasn't correct and people post about it it's whining?

There was a guy around here once who was also crying about the spit IX turnrate compared to his beloved bf109G6 and stated that the spit IX doesn't have a turn rate advantage large enough to give it a tactical advantage.

Later he was going on about how well the Ta152 could turn on the deck against good allied turners and gave the Tempest V as an example.

When I posted back that the Tempest V was a bad example to compare it too he then made an intersting claim.
He claimed that the Bf109G6 only had a slightly worse turn rate then the Tempest V and that the turn advantage of the Tempest V was not large enough to give it a tactical advantage over the Bf109G6.

In the mean time people came up with tactical trials between the Spitfire IX and the Bf109G6 performed in the UK and he brushed em all off with "damaged german plane" and brit pilots don't know how to fly german planes" style comments.

So I then asked him to explain why during tactical trails between the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V the Spit XIV could out turn the Tempest V with ease in either direction and how these trails stand up against his earlier claim about the Bf109 vs Spit IX.

Naturally he tried to dodge this with a couple of stupid retorts like "brits cannot fly german planes" (This pretty much showed me how well he could read since I wasn't talking about brit vs german plane trails but brit vs brit plane trails) and in the end it came down to this: According to his very well informed sources the brit pilots couldn't even fly their own british build planes well enough to provide decent and credible tactical trails.

So from my point of view rat, you can take your whining about apparent whining and shove it where the sun don't shine.

x__CRASH__x
02-24-2005, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

109's have been turning about the same since FB was released. 1.1 was the worst as they added about 1000kg to the airplane.

I think what you are seeing is vPilots getting better at flying it.

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Usual outcome for LW pilots against my Mk. VIII

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/9954/ace056fo.jpg

MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly Warclouds abit. I think you will find your Spit dies just as easy. Its time to move out of the arcade servers Slick. You been around long enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only time I'll ever need to fly Full Real is at a LAN tournament. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Full Real allows even mediocre pilots to score kills, because usually half the time the guy doesn't even see you coming, lmao.

True skill is assessed when both can see each other anytime they want in externals and one still dominates the snot out of them.

Besides, if Full real pilots are more skilled, then they should have no problem downing me with externals ON and everything else in difficulty set to ON, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

109's have been turning about the same since FB was released. 1.1 was the worst as they added about 1000kg to the airplane.

I think what you are seeing is vPilots getting better at flying it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

109s got a boost in a subsequent FB or AEP patch, I don't remember which one. Be sure.

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 04:16 PM
Besides, waaaaay too many more shenanigans are available to FR servers. Especially when they turn-off padlock, but have Track IR; the recent log file abuse coming to light and the ever-popular Speed Gear Aces. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I like being able to visually spot maneuvering warp in externals, so I can laugh at the user, while still kicking their a*s*s.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

pwns joo is just making a mockery of those that use the term seriously. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
02-24-2005, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Usual outcome for LW pilots against my Mk. VIII

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/9954/ace056fo.jpg

MWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly Warclouds abit. I think you will find your Spit dies just as easy. Its time to move out of the arcade servers Slick. You been around long enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only time I'll ever need to fly Full Real is at a LAN tournament. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Full Real allows even mediocre pilots to score kills, because usually half the time the guy doesn't even see you coming, lmao.

True skill is assessed when both can see each other anytime they want in externals and one still dominates the snot out of them.

Besides, if Full real pilots are more skilled, then they should have no problem downing me with externals ON and everything else in difficulty set to ON, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifI use to make the same excuses too...many years ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 04:53 PM
Sure thing. Obviously, you don't believe FR has better pilots or you would have offered to attempt to take me out.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I always believe what people say because it is true for them.

You on FR is the funny part considering how you fly and what you use to fly with.

carguy_
02-24-2005, 05:15 PM
On the serious part,Me109 in FB v1.0 was a UFO and has been downgraded with every patch ever since.

SlickStick
02-24-2005, 06:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
On the serious part,Me109 in FB v1.0 was a UFO and has been downgraded with every patch ever since. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you have waaaay more experience in a 109 than I, I defer to your knowledge.

I just can't seem to recall being able to turn a 109 the way I can these days, and I truly recall them getting better in a patch, that maybe just fixed them from the porking of a previous patch as Crash stated above.

VW-IceFire
02-24-2005, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
On the serious part,Me109 in FB v1.0 was a UFO and has been downgraded with every patch ever since. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I used to fly the 109 alot in the earlier patches and I remember, although I can't think of the reasons why anymore, it getting better between 1.0 and then 1.22. I was a particular of the Bf 109K-4 in the online servers back when 1.01 was the norm. It was a good plane, still is...but I prefer the FW190 now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-24-2005, 07:47 PM
me complain on comms? you got the wrong person I never discuss fms when on comms in fact i dont say much except about the fight is all alt grid howmany and direction the fight is going. I dont tell my life story or ***** about fms on comms.

Maybe someone was using my name on TS jg27crash becuase i didnt use wc comms or fly there in a long time. You know the people in there constantly complain too on comms nonstop then only person I heard have the sense to say anything was kurfurst many months ago about using comms for the game and not to keep *****ing

Badsight.
02-24-2005, 10:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
True skill is assessed when both can see each other anytime they want in externals and one still dominates the snot out of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
true DF skill is showen in Full Real

when you dont have the crutch of externals on

when you have to rely on DF knowledge to bring your bandit into your gunsite without constant visual contact

externals are a crutch that allows the dogfight to maintain intensity , but doesnt require the same knowledge & understanding that externals-off dogfighting does

locked cockpit dogfighting requires more skill

p1ngu666
02-25-2005, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
On the serious part,Me109 in FB v1.0 was a UFO and has been downgraded with every patch ever since. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I used to fly the 109 alot in the earlier patches and I remember, although I can't think of the reasons why anymore, it getting better between 1.0 and then 1.22. I was a particular of the Bf 109K-4 in the online servers back when 1.01 was the norm. It was a good plane, still is...but I prefer the FW190 now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

109 got worse, and recently its got better. i think pf was when it got better...
its actually fairly tough plane to shoot down, and its easier to fly than it was before.

hardly anyone speaks of russian aircraft being downgraded tho. not just ubers like la7, yak3 (i185 biggest uber) but stuff like il2, tb3 are MUCH weaker than before, its so bad its like a joke http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

FR, and externals are different, diff skills needed. just play what u want, and dont b!tch at ppl cos they fly sumin else http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 02:14 AM
109's have many differnt wack problems introduced & resolved all the way thru untill 3.0

the one shot oil windscreen

the K4 & G2 without a rudder

the insane overheating leading to engine frying

their best representation was in FB v1.22 , just before AEP

MEGILE
02-25-2005, 05:21 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Blue-Lexus
02-25-2005, 05:54 AM
Ive been flying the spits since they came out. I would not say they are unbeatable. In fact if I wasnt in love with them i would fly a 109 or a 190. A 109 because there guns are so acurate(one shot and i am dead). A 190 because i cant catch one when it decides to run.

Yes the spit turns well but the black-outs stop you from using it unless you dump all your E alond with your advantage. the 109 does not have such an acute black-out problem.

I fly a lot on WC along with a lot of experienced pilots who can kill very efectivly in a 109 / 190 or even a Spitfire.

My conclusion is that it does not matter what you fly, its your skill as a pilot that counts. If you cant kill a spitfire maybe theres a better pilot in it.

PBNA-Boosher
02-25-2005, 06:04 AM
OOH! Shoot the merlin, it likes to belch flame.

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
True skill is assessed when both can see each other anytime they want in externals and one still dominates the snot out of them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
true DF skill is showen in Full Real

when you dont have the crutch of externals on

when you have to rely on DF knowledge to bring your bandit into your gunsite without constant visual contact

externals are a crutch that allows the dogfight to maintain intensity , but doesnt require the same knowledge & understanding that externals-off dogfighting does

locked cockpit dogfighting requires more skill <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even considering the honor factor, the main difference between FR and Externals only is technology. There is a larger techology advantage under FR conditions and whoever has the most, has the advantage.

It takes more literal "game skill" to fly with Ext than it does in FR. Take that Bellum thread about the log cheat **** and the picture that guy posted of his setup for example.

Using Track IR, while you turn off padlock on the server, having a 3 monitor wide view and other techology advantages, play a much larger role in FR.

FR is just not that exciting for me, as it's not very well simulated looking at a 17" monitor without all the tech stuff.

I don't mind being the "King of External Pad". There are more than enough who like to fly the same way to keep me busy, and if I ever decide to fly FR always, I'll always have my skill advantage first, technology second. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HeinzBar
02-25-2005, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue-Lexus:
Ive been flying the spits since they came out. I would not say they are unbeatable. In fact if I wasnt in love with them i would fly a 109 or a 190. A 109 because there guns are so acurate(one shot and i am dead). A 190 because i cant catch one when it decides to run.

Yes the spit turns well but the black-outs stop you from using it unless you dump all your E alond with your advantage. the 109 does not have such an acute black-out problem.

I fly a lot on WC along with a lot of experienced pilots who can kill very efectivly in a 109 / 190 or even a Spitfire.

My conclusion is that it does not matter what you fly, its your skill as a pilot that counts. If you cant kill a spitfire maybe theres a better pilot in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
No disrepect, but attributing the blackout to the spit being worse is wrong. Blackout/redout occurs equally throughout the sim...it's a matter of G.

As to the guns on the 109, you must be referring to the mk108. Although powerful, it's far from accurate. It has a short range and a lot of drop. Most people using this noob cannon fire it at close range w/devastating effect. If the 151/20 was properly modeled, the use of the mk108 would not be so abundant.

With the 190, running away won't get you kills. Don't get me wrong, I've been flying the fw190 since the original and it's still my favorite bird. Does anyone remember the pathetic wreck the A4/A5 used to be when they was first released? The 190 has always been the black sheep of this sim and has always had the most trouble in one form or another. You will not find a plane that has been the objective of more critical discussion than the fw190.

The problem people are having w/ the Spit is the ridiculous e-retention. Many times, and I'm sure everyone has seen it, even the head-in-sand spit-lover, the spit flying in concentric circles at low speed(<300kph) only to pull up and continue a spiral climb in ever tightning turns. Once the speed has dropped to prevent the continuous climb, one only has to do the same horizontal, concentric turn to build up some speed and start the climb again. That's the major problem w/ the spit.

Currently, the spit IX has the same reputation as the original La5fn. It's labeled as a noob plane and each spit driver is considered the lesser pilot for flying it. It's really a shame too. The spit was a great plane and has a great legend. Unfortunately, as it's modeled now, the disrepect given to the Spit IX and it's driver will continue.

The old saying it's the pilot is only 1/2 right. Two equally skilled pilots flying disimilar aircraft are matched. The aircraft w/ superior performance will win most of the time. This is not directed at you, but you hear that phrase so often I wonder if this is a forum or a parrot convention.

WR,
HB

MEGILE
02-25-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeinzBar:

Currently, the spit IX has the same reputation as the original La5fn. It's labeled as a noob plane and each spit driver is considered the lesser pilot for flying it. It's really a shame too. The spit was a great plane and has a great legend. Unfortunately, as it's modeled now, the disrepect given to the Spit IX and it's driver will continue.

HB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disrespect given to Spitfire pilots? WTF

As a person who flies the BF-109 more than the spitfire, I have every respect for the Spitfire pilots.
Not wanting to sound like Sir.Robin here, but when flying a BF-109K4 the enemey is flying a slower plane, with lower sustained climb.
What more could you ask for?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Disrespect my a$$.

HeinzBar
02-25-2005, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Not even considering the honor factor, the main difference between FR and Externals only is technology. There is a larger techology advantage under FR conditions and whoever has the most, has the advantage.

It takes more literal "game skill" to fly with Ext than it does in FR. Take that Bellum thread about the log cheat **** and the picture that guy posted of his setup for example.

Using Track IR, while you turn off padlock on the server, having a 3 monitor wide view and other techology advantages, play a much larger role in FR.

FR is just not that exciting for me, as it's not very well simulated looking at a 17" monitor without all the tech stuff.

I don't mind being the "King of External Pad". There are more than enough who like to fly the same way to keep me busy, and if I ever decide to fly FR always, I'll always have my skill advantage first, technology second. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
I disagee w/ the technology edge will win-the-day comment. I fly w/out TiR, I don't have 3 monitors (1x19inch for me), and I definitely don't have a high end machine (amd 1.7ghz, ati9700, 768mb pc2100). I feel I do alright and I fly on near FR servers (WC & GG).

I honestly don't understand how it takes more gaming skill to press the external key or use padlock vs having to do everything manually? Padlock will find the target for you, externals will allow you to see the targets for you and to see potential threats well before being in danger. With externals and padlock (we won't going any lower than those two on the DF scale), the whole idea of SA goes out the window. Lost visual? Pan around while constanly clicking PL, presto! bandit found. Need to check your six? press one key, presto! six is clear. Fly w/ the crutches off, one actually has to constantly move his plane to check his six, worry about the bandit from above and below stalking him sight unseen. Not to mention if a bandit is actually on your six, what to do? Crutches on: one can push a button and watch how the bandit reacts to your moves. Crutches off: you are never quite sure what that bandit is doing while you're jinking for your life. Now, how much more skill does it take to out fly a bandit on your six when you can't see him?

Each is entiled to fly their way, but I have to disagree w/ the statement of it takes more skill to fly w/ crutches on than off.

HB

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 08:56 AM
nubarus wrote

So from my point of view rat, you can take your whining about apparent whining and shove it where the sun don't shine.
________________________________________________

up yours nubarus,, i was replying to slicksticks assumption that 109s were improved because of whining. so i guess he was whinging about whining too. but i guess you didnt bother reading previous posts before you decided to start with the insults.

HeinzBar
02-25-2005, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:

Disrespect given to Spitfire pilots? WTF

As a person who flies the BF-109 more than the spitfire, I have every respect for the Spitfire pilots.
Not wanting to sound like Sir.Robin here, but when flying a BF-109K4 the enemey is flying a slower plane, with lower sustained climb.
What more could you ask for?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Disrespect my a$$. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
Don't take my word for it. Ask around in WC or any other semi-serious DF server and you'll find that the majority of folks there have a lower opinion of the spit IX and its driver than any other plane in the western front planeset.

I respect what the spit can do in relation to the potential damage it can do. Do I respect the fm model..no. I place a p51, p47, bf109, fw190 FM & driver well above the spit fm & driver. The skill level it takes to fly the above mentioned planes is far and away more substantial than the spit IX. Given two pilots that have an equal number of kills but in different AC, I can't help but think lesser of the Spit IX driver as being the lesser skilled of the two. That's probably an asinine statement on my part, and I'm sure many will disagree, but it's also a feeling that many share.

WR,
HB

notgoodknight
02-25-2005, 09:08 AM
I agree with megile and I am/was the top pilot at warclouds for an extended period of time. Anyone can fly blue and just fly in packs, remain near their airbase, or shoot down p38s and get 200 points a pop. More respect, in my eyes, in the eyes of the games greatest pilot, should be given to spit drivers who challenge multiple bandits on their own and emerge victorious. Its just harder to stay alive in a spit and the best pilots fly it. Fw190 do not require evasive action, just stick-stirring, extension, and a wingman. bf109 requires much more flying ability than a fw190, even if a fw requires better aim- it still has a ton of ammo and you can spray and pray with it. No respect to fw drivers from me, sorry. I just butcher everyone in them.

WOLFMondo
02-25-2005, 09:24 AM
IMO the 109 is just as much as a percieved n00b plane as the Spitfires. To add the 109's in late war servers are faster and can pull off the same moves but have much great deceleration and acceleration than the Spitfires and have that massive uber cannon strapped on the front. 109's are like flying 4X4 rally cars. Not to say all 109 drivers are n00bs because I know there not, some know there machines inside and out and are skilled at flying them and nice guys too!

How can the Spitfire's be n00b planes? Its not like the La7 and us uber quick, its slow, it accelerates slowly, its dive is slow to build up, its maximum dive speed is lower than that of its RL counterpart by quite some margin. Its roll speed is horrible, especially at high speeds. Spitfires IX's and VIII's cannot run away so how do you expect people to use them? Would you run from a 190 or 109 in a plane with a serious speed disadvantage or would you turn against them? Knowing it has a great climb wouldn't you use that to your advantage? Its like saying a 190 is a n00b plane because all you have to do to get anyone of your 6 is roll and dive and run. Works against any plane.

When I fly a Spitfire its not because its easy to fly (a historically correct aspect) its because of what it is. As someone said months ago, its up there with King Arthur and Excalibre or Robin Hood as a legend albeit a living one.

RedNeckerson
02-25-2005, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notgoodknight:
I am/was the top pilot at warclouds for an extended period of time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, yay!

WTG!

You should mention that in every single post you make!

Nubarus
02-25-2005, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
nubarus wrote

So from my point of view rat, you can take your whining about apparent whining and shove it where the sun don't shine.
________________________________________________

up yours nubarus,, i was replying to slicksticks assumption that 109s were improved because of whining. so i guess he was whinging about whining too. but i guess you didnt bother reading previous posts before you decided to start with the insults. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah I see, so you counter his assumption with your own assumption.

That's really clever...... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MEGILE
02-25-2005, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don't take my word for it. Ask around in WC or any other semi-serious DF server and you'll find that the majority of folks there have a lower opinion of the spit IX and its driver than any other plane in the western front planeset. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Childish nonsense. People can fly what they like.
The only time a Spitfire can touch a BF-109K4 is when it turns. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You should mention that in every single post you make! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be ace hatin' the goodkn1ght http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HeinzBar
02-25-2005, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notgoodknight:
Fw190 do not require evasive action, just stick-stirring, extension, and a wingman. bf109 requires much more flying ability than a fw190, even if a fw requires better aim- it still has a ton of ammo and you can spray and pray with it. No respect to fw drivers from me, sorry. I just butcher everyone in them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GK,
I'm glad you agree. Only the spit would allow one to fly in WC in lone wolf terms and get away w/ it on a regular basis. I'm glad to see it pointed out that the fw doesn't require evasive action because it only has one...run. Planes like the fw, the p47, the p51 take far more skill to fly as they also involve planning.

You're always talking a good game about being a leading ace, well, the stats hold true. You've got a good k/d ratio on WC. However, you're more noted for coming in and snatching a kill away from a mate than actually earning it. I'm not saying you don't have skill, you do. But, you're not respected for flying the spit IX to get those kills. Your team mates in AFJ are more respected for flying more difficult planes like the p51, p47, & the p38. Before you crown yourself king, perhaps you should take some tips from your superiors, Mantis & Mastiff. Now, those are pilots to be respected for their skills.

HB

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 10:10 AM
Heinz, I hear what you are saying and knew some would post how successful they are without technology aids, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

All the things you mention are happening on both sides by both fighters in externals. That's what makes it the more level playing field and thus requires more skill to get away from someone who can see everything you are doing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I would be AS successful flying FR as I am now and as I know since I fly it part-time, as it's sooooooo easy to sneak around and just gun down unaware bogeys. I'm smart about this game and I'm smart about the way I fly. I know the planes, their advantages/disadvantages extremely well and I have a keen sense for situational awareness.

A slight adjustment to stick settings/controls and the more-flying-than-killing world of full real could be mine. I choose the adrenaline way to play this game, but can identify with the immersion aspect others prefer.

MEGILE
02-25-2005, 10:12 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'm not seeing the logic....
Spitfire IXc is slow.
Spitfire IXc has lower sustained climb than BF-109K4.
Spitfire IXc has slower acceleration than late-lufts.
Spitfire IXc has poor roll rate at high speed.
Spitfire IXc has a low diving speed.

Spitfire can... turn.

Someone point out where Spitfire is superior to late-war lufts? I don't see it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 10:18 AM
The difference is that the Spit IX goes fast enough to stay close and a smart Spitfire pilot knows how to get guns on a B and Zer in certain passes.

In most any plane, as long as you have a 1500m or so cushion above someone, you can hold the advantage in this game until you make a mistake. That doesn't mean you won't be shooting at a hard target in that Spitfire pilot below, who may have great evasive moves, but altitude advantage is hard to take away from any plane in this game.

You have to try to lure him into thinking he's got a shot if he makes one more little turn on the way down and usually that's where the tables turn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HeinzBar
02-25-2005, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Heinz, I hear what you are saying and knew some would post how successful they are without technology aids, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

All the things you mention are happening on both sides by both fighters in externals. That's what makes it the more level playing field and thus requires more skill to get away from someone who can see everything you are doing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I would be AS successful flying FR as I am now and as I know since I fly it part-time, as it's sooooooo easy to sneak around and just gun down unaware bogeys. I'm smart about this game and I'm smart about the way I fly. I know the planes, their advantages/disadvantages extremely well and I have a keen sense for situational awareness.

A slight adjustment to stick settings/controls and the more-flying-than-killing world of full real could be mine. I choose the adrenaline way to play this game, but can identify with the immersion aspect others prefer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! Slick,
Rgr that. I understand where you're coming from. I didn't mean to give the impression that externals and such are a bad thing. I used to love CrazyIvan's coops w/ externals on. Sometimes, it's just great to be outside the plane and admire the environment....my favorite being the early morning snow maps w/ the sun just over the horizon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree about the adrenaline rush...great fun. I just find my rush of constantly being paranoid by being bounced by that unseen bandit like a well flown p51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HB

notgoodknight
02-25-2005, 10:35 AM
respectfully, watching any of jv44 fly the spit, except for maybe, vonheide, would be exceptionally funny. Turn fighting is an art, and it is far from easy. Id like to see what jv44 could do, if they couldn't just run away or find the nearest cloud. Your assumption that the spitfire requires no skill is erroneous and many aces would agree. I've seen jv44 try to fly it on several occasions- with disastrous results.
!S

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 11:29 AM
cough,,,im jv44, you better check my spitfire stats under the name red_rat before shooting your mouth off goodknight.

i have 23 kills to 2 deaths under the red_rat name, one of those deaths was in a p51 i beleive. anyway i had 23 kills with spit before my 1st death. not as good as your stats to be sure, but hardly somthing thats exceptionally funny, or a disastrous result as you say in your post.

oh i rarely flew the spit before then, but since the spit is a instant ace maker, i didn't really need to, as my red_rat stats show.

considering my k/d with german planes under name von_rat is only 5 to 1. i'd say yes the spit is a easy ride.

StellarRat
02-25-2005, 11:33 AM
Why don't JV44 and AFJ have a squad match with WC settings? I'd love to watch that one.

Of course, Fish is better than any of either squads pilots.

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 11:41 AM
Smells like Fish, eat all you wish. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

doh

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 11:51 AM
nubarus,, i guess in your world its fine for red to make assumptions, but you feel duty bound to call out a blue player who does it.

i was just giving tit for tat.

robban75
02-25-2005, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire IXc is slow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only at SL really.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire IXc has lower sustained climb than BF-109K4. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No prop plane in the game outclimbs the K-4, not even close.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire IXc has slower acceleration than late-lufts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only at the higher speeds, only at SL, and only because of it slower topspeed there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire IXc has poor roll rate at high speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compared to the Fw 190, yes, to other planes I'd say it's equal to most.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire IXc has a low diving speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly, it has better dive acceleration than a Fw 190A-6. The A-6 will only outdive the Spit at transonic speeds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Spitfire can... turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, not gonna argue with you there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Someone point out where Spitfire is superior to late-war lufts? I don't see it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
the main difference between FR and Externals only is technology. There is a larger techology advantage under FR conditions and whoever has the most, has the advantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ahh , no

the main difference between the two is that you need TRUE DF UNDERSTANDING to be successfull without constant visual contact

having constant visual contact makes up for a lack of ACM & DF

when you pass in a locked pit situation & dont have constant visual contact , your ACM knowledge comes into play as you get your bandit into youre gunsite

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
It takes more literal "game skill" to fly with Ext than it does in FR. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
less skill , your relying on a crutch (always having constant visual contact) to maintain intensity , rather than true DF understanding

you dont need trackir to kill in locked pit

you dont need padlock to kill in locked pit

a lack of skill would be the reason to want either

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
There is a larger techology advantage under FR conditions and whoever has the most, has the advantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>technology dont make you fly better than the other guy , technology dont make you deflection shoot better than the other guy , technology dont give you better DF understanding than the other guy , your statement would be true if you had typed the following :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
There is a larger understanding & experience needed under FR conditions and whoever has the most, has the advantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 12:59 PM
Badsight as you and the WUAF found out, you're not even close to my level. Also, you put too much separation on the situational awareness that is required between the two methods of playing this game.

What you describe about FR, is the same with externals. Same skills are needed as a basis for both. You just have more hiding places from the view of the bandit in FR. And you need to be able to find him before he finds you in most cases.

Track IR lets you follow planes more naturally instead of having to use a hat or mouse. Gunnery with locked pit and FR are exactly the same. I don't shoot from externals, either.

p1ngu666
02-25-2005, 01:06 PM
i agree with goodknight. in a dora, if im trouble, i can just run, give details where i am and get help, or the chaser gives up.

p51 can run from most stuff too



spit can outclimb, some apponents, sometimes. spit hasto fight... much like flying i16

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Badsight as you and the WUAF found out, you're not even close to my level. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
What you describe about FR, is the same with externals. Same skills are needed as a basis for both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>another LOL
externals on makes it FAR eaiser to maintain intensity

plz dont let your ego get so offended so eaisly , i fly all settings too , im not BS you

locked pit requires the most understanding & knowledge & skill to be effective in & Slick , have you even tried trackir ?

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 01:17 PM
spit can disengauge from a hi fight, i did it plenty of times as red_rat. if your low and slow and get caught by multiple enemy planes, your in deep doo doo, as you should be in any plane.

if your low and slow in a dora, your chances of running away from multiple enemys are slim also.

the difference is, smart dora drivers don't get caught low and slow, neither do smart spit flyers. the dumb spit flyers get caught low and slow by multiple enemys, then come in here and complain spit can't run.

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Badsight as you and the WUAF found out, you're not even close to my level. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
What you describe about FR, is the same with externals. Same skills are needed as a basis for both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>another LOL
externals on makes it FAR eaiser to maintain intensity

plz dont let your ego get so offended so eaisly , i fly all settings too , im not BS you

locked pit requires the most understanding & knowledge & skill to be effective in & Slick , have you even tried trackir ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can put on a show for the forums, but both you and I know what happened that day I stopped by for a flight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

No need to have to try Track IR, I've seen tracks of its use.

To end this, suffice to say FR requires different tactics than Externals. I just think you create too much spearation between the two. It ain't that hard to fly FR, as some would have people believe.

In my experience, it's always been the ones who can't hang with the intensity that convert to FR or become B and Zers and chime about how much better it is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

notgoodknight
02-25-2005, 02:32 PM
You can't just say, i got 20 kills and 2 deaths in the spit, therefore it is better than the german counterparts. It could be a freak occourance, which is very likely in your case von rat. You have to fly it over an extended period of time and eventually the stats will even out.

HayateAce
02-25-2005, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notgoodknight:
I agree with megile and I am/was the top pilot at warclouds for an extended period of time. Anyone can fly blue and just fly in packs, remain near their airbase, or shoot down p38s and get 200 points a pop. More respect, in my eyes, in the eyes of the games greatest pilot, should be given to spit drivers who challenge multiple bandits on their own and emerge victorious. Its just harder to stay alive in a spit and the best pilots fly it. Fw190 do not require evasive action, just stick-stirring, extension, and a wingman. bf109 requires much more flying ability than a fw190, even if a fw requires better aim- it still has a ton of ammo and you can spray and pray with it. No respect to fw drivers from me, sorry. I just butcher everyone in them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.pardee-quality-methods.com/images/hammer_nail.jpg

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
You can put on a show for the forums, but both you and I know what happened that day I stopped by for a flight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i sure do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif thats why i replied with a " LOL " http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
No need to have to try Track IR, I've seen tracks of its use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ahh so you know nothing about it then , just go try it before you talk about its effectiveness anymore

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 03:16 PM
Badsight. wrote: "I can't publically admit how you kicked the collective a*s*s*es of my squad's best in about the first 20-30mins on our server."

I understand. Perception is 90% of reality. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 03:17 PM
_______________________________________________
goodknight said
You can't just say, i got 20 kills and 2 deaths in the spit, therefore it is better than the german counterparts. It could be a freak occourance, which is very likely in your case von rat. You have to fly it over an extended period of time and eventually the stats will even out.
________________________________________________

goodknight, i noticed that you stopped playing more than 3 weeks ago, are you afraid of your stats evening out also.

you get 1 more kill against you, and your precious stats wouldn't be quite so impressive would they. if you got killed twice more your k/d would be rather mediocore compared to quite a few other pilots in warclouds.

my stats might even out if i continued flying spit, as yours would also. but i would also learn the spit better, so maybe not. but i perfer german aircraft.

oh as far as flying spit over a extended period of time, my redrat player has slighty more hours in spit than yours. so my stats had just about the same amount of time to even out as yours. i'll admit your better shot, obviuosly because you have more than twice as many kills in about same time period. hmm maybe your stats are just a freak occurrence.

and despite my statment about spit being ace maker, the main point i was making, was disproving your comments about jv44, that we can't fly spits well, etc.

btw it was 23 kills to 1 death in spit, other death was in p51 i beleive.

Lav69
02-25-2005, 03:45 PM
All you saturday afternoon fighter pilots crack me up. Some of you talk like you've flown the real thing. Theres always an uber plane somewhere. Depends on the latest patch. Ki84, Spit, LA7, P51, - heard'em all called "UBER". Who cares. Juts fly the game and enjoy. If thats not possible then go play something else. ITS A VIDEO GAME FOR CRYIN-OUT-LOUD!!!!

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Badsight. wrote: "I can't publically admit how you kicked the collective a*s*s*es of my squad's best in about the first 20-30mins on our server."

I understand. Perception _is_ 90% of reality. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lol , you went down time after time , remarkably quickly too considering how short a time you spent flying with my old squad & it wasnt even the best pilots in that squad that chopped you up

not having any backup sucks huh ? if cant handel being nothing special then there is always this forum i guess

p1ngu666
02-25-2005, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
spit can disengauge from a hi fight, i did it plenty of times as red_rat. if your low and slow and get caught by multiple enemy planes, your in deep doo doo, as you should be in any plane.

if your low and slow in a dora, your chances of running away from multiple enemys are slim also.

the difference is, smart dora drivers don't get caught low and slow, neither do smart spit flyers. the dumb spit flyers get caught low and slow by multiple enemys, then come in here and complain spit can't run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

depends on the spit, and what u against, and u haveto land at some point http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

if i remmber correctly, most lw pilots rate there ability to extend, or drag or run away highly, so do i infact, as ive used dora, and a9 on straffing and bomb runs, i straff till i get in trouble then i run and drag bandits to friendlys or they break off.

btw ive done good trade shooting down fighters in b25, inc spits, yak3, ki84c etc. that doesnt mean the b25 is a good fighter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Badsight. wrote: "I can't publically admit how you kicked the collective a*s*s*es of my squad's best in about the first 20-30mins on our server."

I understand. Perception _is_ 90% of reality. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lol , you went down time after time , remarkably quickly too considering how short a time you spent flying with my old squad & it wasnt even the best pilots in that squad that chopped you up

not having any backup sucks huh ? if cant handel being nothing special then there is always this forum i guess <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a shame. To think, I thought you had some substance to you. You have a very convenient memory. Anytime you'd like it refreshed, just say the word.

(whisper)It's not like all the Aces don't know you guys weren't that good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

notgoodknight
02-25-2005, 05:19 PM
me not playing on warclouds has nothing to with my stats. 1 of 2 things happened:

either jv44 got sick of being beat and banned me.

or Sparx went on a power trip again and abused his admin power because i gave honest feedback about his server.

by the way the one death i had was from a friendly that crashed into me on the runway. i am unbeatable no matter what plane i fly.

i expected to well exceed hartmann's record of 352 in the spit had i not been banned. I just don't really see myself getting shot down, honest truth, especially in a server like warclouds with a high concentration of new pilots. its not the spit thats unbeatable, its me.

Badsight.
02-25-2005, 05:24 PM
sorry Slick but to me , "substance" isnt butt kissing . its something i never do

you can put down my old squad all you want , but i know what they were , & the emphasis was always on fun . the best in that squad are eaisly your equal , because in reality , your nothing special . remember im talking reality here & not your imagination

i dont have a convienient memory , when you joined a room that that squad was flying in & i was present , you got shot down as we all do , what most people dont have tho is a problem with others not thinking they are the greatest

Lucius_Esox
02-25-2005, 05:38 PM
Good grief,
This for me is the d/side to online IL2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Von_Rat
02-25-2005, 05:48 PM
goodknight,, you only have 2 kills against jv44, hardly enough for you to claim jv44 got sick of being beat by you.
i also seem to remember you getting shot down by jv44rall, not killed unfournatly.

as far as you being unbeatable, i know ive nailed you several times myself, before stats started. of course you've have shot me down more i'm sure. but your far from unbeatable.

SlickStick
02-25-2005, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
sorry Slick but to me , "substance" isnt butt kissing . its something i never do

you can put down my old squad all you want , but i know what they were , & the emphasis was always on fun . the best in that squad are eaisly your equal , because in reality , your nothing special . remember im talking reality here & not your imagination

i dont have a convienient memory , when you joined a room that that squad was flying in & i was present , you got shot down as we all do , what most people dont have tho is a problem with others not thinking they are the greatest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had 900 points in the first 30 mins...closest next 200 or so. And I don't think I'm the greatest, I just sit awfully high on the food chain.

steiner562
02-25-2005, 07:39 PM
"Friends dont let friends fly arcade".prob the only good/true quote you'll ever from GK and sums it all uphttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

x__CRASH__x
02-25-2005, 11:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notgoodknight:
me not playing on warclouds has nothing to with my stats. 1 of 2 things happened:

either jv44 got sick of being beat and banned me.

or Sparx went on a power trip again and abused his admin power because i gave honest feedback about his server. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaaaahh ..... it's ... too ...... stupid ...

Owlsphone
02-26-2005, 12:11 AM
IBTL.

It's a game boys. Let it go.

Vipez-
02-26-2005, 06:02 AM
ah i love these arrogant dudes saying nobody can shoot them down im so uber ace (like GoodKnight)

gives much more satisfaction to shoot them down eventually..

Nubarus
02-26-2005, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
nubarus,, i guess in your world its fine for red to make assumptions, but you feel duty bound to call out a blue player who does it.

i was just giving tit for tat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, from my world it shows you are just the same as him.

The fact that you keep defending yourself for doing just the same is laughable at best really.

It's like calling someone a dirty thief when your a thief yourself.

I call that the pot calling the kettle black.

You should have just told him he shouldn't make assumptions like that without real proof, but instead you did the same and felt justified doing it.

Pretty stupid really.

Lucius_Esox
02-26-2005, 06:48 AM
Vipez-
My sentiments entirely: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-26-2005, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notgoodknight:
i am unbeatable no matter what plane i fly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
yes i noticed that yesterday on greatergreen
P47D (me) vs 109K4 (you)
low level at medium speed fight lasted to passes and two burst then you went down smokin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Von_Rat
02-26-2005, 07:34 AM
nubarus speaking of stupid, how come you didn't point his assumption out to him, oh i get it its ok for reds not blues ehhh. i don't see you jumping on leadspitter or hayate ace, for their whinging about whining. your not only stupid, your a hypocrite too.

you seem to keep defending your bias, its laughable really.

if you wish to keep going with the insults till one of us is banned or thread is locked, fine by me.

Nubarus
02-26-2005, 07:49 AM
Von Rat, everything you seem to do so far is keep on assuming and keep on blaming others for your own stupidity.

Is there anything else you can do?

For your sake I hope you can, if you can't then I feel sorry for you.

p1ngu666
02-26-2005, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:


Is there anything else you can do?

For your sake I hope you can, if you can't then I feel sorry for you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

he can live on warclouds http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

i live on teh lobby, coop and forum mind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nubarus
02-26-2005, 07:54 AM
And to answer your question.

I don't know anything about the LW planes so everybody can make claims that may or may not be accurate so I have no idea if they are assuming in any way.
Unlike the Spitfire since I was personally involved with the collection of the data to iron out mistakes.

I was wise enough to not do it via this forum to prevent threads getting pooped on by the likes such as yourself but took the direct way to avoid threads like the one we see here.

Von_Rat
02-26-2005, 07:58 AM
blaming others for my stupidity, i made mistake of trying to justify my whine about whiners to a hypocrite like you,thats the only stupid thing i've done so far.

you still haven't answered my question. how come no comments about ceaseless whines about whiners from leadspitter or hayate ace??

i feel sorry for someone whose so dimwitted they can't see their own bias.

p1ngu666
02-26-2005, 08:02 AM
hayate ace is amusing tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leadspitter too, and ive know him for ages, just how he is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
02-26-2005, 08:03 AM
good point p1ngu666.. im getting carried away. apologys. im outta this thread for good.

Nubarus
02-26-2005, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
blaming others for my stupidity, i made mistake of trying to justify my whine about whiners to a hypocrite like you,thats the only stupid thing i've done so far.

you still haven't answered my question. how come no comments about ceaseless whines about whiners from leadspitter or hayate ace??

i feel sorry for someone whose so dimwitted they can't see their own bias. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I already did explain it, seems you are too dense to see it.

But here goes.

This comment: "spit9s weren't good as they are now at turning when they 1st came out either. monumental whining ensued and poof it was changed." I see this as an insult to those that spend a lot of time seeking out the needed information and presented it to Oleg.

That includes me too just in case you missed that too.

That is why I took your incredible dumb statement and quoted it.

MEGILE
02-26-2005, 11:17 AM
Leadspitter and Gkn1ght are both aces, and know a thing or two about dogfighting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Sure i've seen them get shot down, but I've also seen them go out and shoot 7 bandits down in one sortie without blinking.

Von_Rat
02-27-2005, 12:46 AM
ok nubarus lets leave your bias aside, and get back to my statment.

so what you got hold of some documents, big fricking deal. the spit is screwed up. you want proof, get in game and play, or are you to stupid to see somthings wrong.

myself and others, mostly others, have posted tests from in game, and compared to real life spit data, in some cases provided by spit fan boys like yourself. it shows spit in game is wrong.

im not going to rehash it all here for your benifet.

Franzen
02-27-2005, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
good point p1ngu666.. im getting carried away. apologys. im outta this thread for good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Von_Rat
02-27-2005, 01:25 AM
yeah i know franzen. just couldn't help myself. lol.

Franzen
02-27-2005, 01:30 AM
These threads can either be therapy or a slow working poison leading to insanity. Depends how you take it. My wife always comes into the room to see what I'm laughing about, then frowns when she see I'm reading GD.

BTW, you were just introduced to my wife; this time she's laughing. I think she's starting to understand. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Von_Rat
02-27-2005, 01:37 AM
hello franzens wife.

ok, ok, i think your right about the poison part. i guess its my arguementive nature, my ex wife really hated it. notice the ex part. lol.

alright this time i'll keep my promise and not even open this thread again.

i also get laugh outta these threads, then i go and do somthing stupid, like acttually post in them. lol.

Sig.Hirsch
02-27-2005, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'm not seeing the logic....
Spitfire IXc is slow.
Spitfire IXc has lower sustained climb than BF-109K4.
Spitfire IXc has slower acceleration than late-lufts.
Spitfire IXc has poor roll rate at high speed.
Spitfire IXc has a low diving speed.

Spitfire can... turn.

Someone point out where Spitfire is superior to late-war lufts? I don't see it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit IX is not to be compared with K4 in terms of speed nor climb , when we'll have the Spit XIV , we'll talk .

But , apart from the K4 , name me a plane which climbs better than Spit IX ingame ?

Spit accelerates very good .
Spit is one of the best if not the best turner of the game generally speaking (all speed mixed up )
Spit has the best armament you can find in the game
Spit is more solid than any Bf
Spit almost never overheats
Spit always win in sustained turn against any LW plane , and is a fantastic boom and zoom plane and turn and burn .
Spit has a fantastic cockpit view , with rearview mirror
Spit has a great autonomy and is a tough plane to down .
Spit has a decent diving speed , and good diving acceleration

The ONLY thing where Spit is weak is :

1) Speed : because it's the 9 not the 14 , when there will be the 14 ....
2) Rollrate : true , it's rollrate is not good , luckily , otherwise there would bne nothing to do .

To conclude , i'm not here to expose my records in dogfight , Bellum , and coop , to justify any **** i could say , but when you say that it's easier to fly a Focke Wulf than a Spit , i really want to laugh , and the same is applyable if someone would have said that Bf-109 is harder than P-47 for instance .

BTW the GoodKnight i knew (who was modest , and very very good ) , it's been like 8 months or more i've not seen him , was JG53_Goodknight , i doubt he would have said that , was that name stealing or the same guy for =AFJ= ?

HayateAce
02-27-2005, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Good grief,
This for me is the d/side to online IL2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaaa!

The day you stop seeing spirited "discussions such as this, is the day FB dies. There are numerous, competitive egomaniacs online who think they must be the best. Of course these threads are ******ed.

What more could you want?

HayateAce
02-27-2005, 08:34 AM
Oh yes, and thanks Judd Hirsch for your usual bag of whiney lies.

notgoodknight
02-27-2005, 08:39 AM
never get off the boat. absolutely god**** right. unless youre goin all the way. goodknight got off the boat.

he could have gone for general,...but he went for himself instead.

i heard his voice on teamspeak and it really put the hook in me.

I saw a snail, crawling, slithering along the edge of sharp razor. thats my dream, thats my nitemare. crawling, slithering, on the edge, and surviving.

the horror, the horror, the horror.