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View Full Version : What's the advantage of fast roll rate?



XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:53 PM
I know the theory, I think. But last night I was flying against some Lagg3's in 190 A5 and a few got on my tail. I could outroll the Lagg's all night. But sooner or later, I have to pull back on the stick (they were too close to outrun and too low to outdive) and the manueverability/ stability was the usual easy stall for a 190. So the climb/ turn rate was slow. Even if I rolled so fast that I was 180 degrees opposite orientation of the Yak, my turn was so slow (cuz I didn't want to stall), he easily rolled back over, probably pulled back on his stick and pulled lead on me. I'm not sure I understand how roll rate helps in some situations.

Needless to say, the Lagg never killed me, I stalled and ate a few trees. Added to that, two other missions in a 109 G-2, and both times Yaks ate me up. I think I'm gonna fly a few Russian planes tonight to rebuild my confidence, maybe an La5FN or I-16.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:53 PM
I know the theory, I think. But last night I was flying against some Lagg3's in 190 A5 and a few got on my tail. I could outroll the Lagg's all night. But sooner or later, I have to pull back on the stick (they were too close to outrun and too low to outdive) and the manueverability/ stability was the usual easy stall for a 190. So the climb/ turn rate was slow. Even if I rolled so fast that I was 180 degrees opposite orientation of the Yak, my turn was so slow (cuz I didn't want to stall), he easily rolled back over, probably pulled back on his stick and pulled lead on me. I'm not sure I understand how roll rate helps in some situations.

Needless to say, the Lagg never killed me, I stalled and ate a few trees. Added to that, two other missions in a 109 G-2, and both times Yaks ate me up. I think I'm gonna fly a few Russian planes tonight to rebuild my confidence, maybe an La5FN or I-16.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 03:02 PM
It's very helpfun when you want to change the direction you'll turn in very fast. Try it in a steep dive. A simple roll will change the direction you'll pull up in very very fast.



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fluke39
07-18-2003, 03:06 PM
not quite what your asking but - i think the i-16 is quite sh*te to be honest - it is uber as an AI plane but as soon as i get behind the stick about the first shot takes out me or my engine - the La5FN however is a different story.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 03:10 PM
In a 190, cut throttle to about 50%-75%, and engage in scissors until your opponent breaks off or passes you. Just in case you don't know what scissoring is, it's weaving back and forth and your opponent tries to follow but usually overshoots. This is when roll rate comes in very handy.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 03:59 PM
tmdgm1 wrote:
.
- But sooner or later, I have to pull back on the
- stick (they were too close to outrun and too low to
- outdive) and the manueverability/ stability was the
- usual easy stall for a 190.



I don't mean to sound obvious, but if you're in almost any axis plane in this situation...it spells disaster. Keep your E up bro and call for help.




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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 04:15 PM
IIRC, in RL, roll to get in an opposite vertical plane as the bandit on your six and then pull on the stick. From the bandit's point of view, you would disappear underneath his nose and he couldn't track you. You would go "out of plane" - think woodworking (the two boards were out of plane).

Needless to say, if you're on a server with PL, it's not that effective. The PL tracks you while you're under the bandit's nose.

And if you're on a server with cockpit off, it's not effective at all. The wonder woman view goes through aluminum and steel.

Also, rolling and scissors are not really offensive moves. If you're caught low and slow in a FW, keep trying to shake them, head for home and call for help.

You might be able to force an overshoot once, twice if you're lucky. But if you don't nail them in one burst or if there's more than two bandits chasing you, you're fighting a purely defensive battle.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 04:23 PM
Roll rate is a meassure of agility of an aircraft, and is primary important for changing the lateral direction of the aircrafts lift vector. As lift is responsible for turning an aircraft, roll performance is indicative of an aircrafts ability to change it´s plane of maneuver. Superior roll rates can prevent an opponent to align fuselages, matching bank angle etc., it is particulary important in guns defense maneuvers, such a jinking, or when trying to generate angle off the tail for out of plane maneuvers after an opponent positioned himself in the rear quarter, with little or no angle off the tail.
The FW-190´s do have superior roll performance to pretty much any aircraft in FB, the difficult part is to dose elevator input to change the lift vector to produce enough angle off tail without stalling the aircraft. When using FW190´s low Joystick sensitivity settings might be necessary, also unloading G´s before rolling is preferable, i.e. break turn, if the opponent is following through and tracking- center the stick, roll about 90? in any direction, pull on the stick, repeat etc.

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.



Message Edited on 07/18/0303:23PM by Oak_Groove

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 04:33 PM
Join the infantry pal...Your in over your head obviously.....

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 04:44 PM
"The FW-190´s do have superior roll performance to pretty much any aircraft in FB, the difficult part is to dose elevator input to change the lift vector to produce enough angle off tail without stalling the aircraft"

This statement summarizes my question. I can roll fast, but trying to 'dose' elevator input to change lift vector without stalling is the problem I was having. I would always stall. Or, I wouldn't pull back enough on the stick and the Lagg could pull back more on his stick to pull lead and pop pop pop. So then what's so great about roll rate. Well summarized Oakgroove. You're advice is probably correct. I just need more practice.

And yup, I shouldn't have been low and relatively slow. I just got too eager as my wingmen were getting sliced and diced.

Thanks for the advice

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:11 PM
Yep, practice is the key as well as fighting the urge to turn and maintain visual contact. All that does is scrub off your energy.

Play the vertical game and only once you've achieved sufficient altitude (for the FW it's at or above 2000M). Try to engage WITH a friendly and if two passes don't do the trick, consider easier prey or better circumstances.



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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 05:35 PM
tmdgm1 wrote:
- "The FW-190´s do have superior roll performance to
- pretty much any aircraft in FB, the difficult part
- is to dose elevator input to change the lift vector
- to produce enough angle off tail without stalling
- the aircraft"
-
- This statement summarizes my question. I can roll
- fast, but trying to 'dose' elevator input to change
- lift vector without stalling is the problem I was
- having. I would always stall. Or, I wouldn't pull
- back enough on the stick and the Lagg could pull
- back more on his stick to pull lead and pop pop pop.
- So then what's so great about roll rate. Well
- summarized Oakgroove. You're advice is probably
- correct. I just need more practice.


Oak Groove gets it spot on. But what doesn't get fully brought out is that the ability to quickly change your lift vector will only help you in instantaneous turn performance and it plays no part in sustained turn performance. So, the idea in the case of your defensive situation is not to turn quickly and then try to hold that turn, but to turn quickly and then do it again and again. Put simply "jinking".

The problem with all this jinking is that it can quickly rob you of E. And since you said you found yourself low and slow, losing more E would be a very bad thing. So the best advice is don't get in that position (outta altitude, outta speed and outta luck). Try to outrun and call for help. Finding a cloud can help too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

BTW vector turning can come in very handy in the offensive allowing you to get a quick firing solution on an a/c that might have better sustained turn or tighter turn radius. The trick is, again, not to stay in the turn but break off and set up again.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 06:14 PM
One other small note. As you said yourself, as you 'out-role' the Lagg and begin a (gentle) turn, he is also rolling but is now forced to pull harder (even though he can do it easily). This burns more energy (speed) off of him. This is an important part of energy fighting. Force the enemy to bleed energy while you build it. It is not very dangerous to have an enemy 'behind' you if you are 1000m higher than him, or if you are going 300kph faster than him.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 06:19 PM
tmdgm1 wrote:
- What's the advantage of fast roll rate?



The advantage of a fast roll rate is like the advantage of a quick first step on a cut move in basketball or football.



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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 06:21 PM
I would think this is obvious. You can't turn until you roll first. Take a P-47 and try and stay with Fw190. The Fw will turn right fast, you turn the best you can int P-47, but your behind because you can't get it turned. While your still banked over to the right, the Fw turn fast to the left. You have to wait forever for the P-47 togo from rolled over right all the way to rolled left. Meanwhile the Fw is gone.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the La7 as much as i'd like too. It's roll rate is terrible. I use full rudder with my turns to help, but it still gets left behind.

Think of a plane with a slow roll rate like a race car with slow steering. It wouldn't be as good as a race car with fast steering. Would it?

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:41 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I would think this is obvious. You can't turn until
- you roll first. Take a P-47 and try and stay with
- Fw190. The Fw will turn right fast, you turn the
- best you can int P-47, but your behind because you
- can't get it turned. While your still banked over to
- the right, the Fw turn fast to the left. You have to
- wait forever for the P-47 togo from rolled over
- right all the way to rolled left. Meanwhile the Fw
- is gone.


This is why I can't wait for the patch to fix the T-Bolt's roll. 'Cause I hate it when that FW gets gone /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:43 PM
It's not fixed enough to stay with a Fw190.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 07:47 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- It's not fixed enough to stay with a Fw190.


Unless you're really high up. But then nobody goes there too often in this sim. Oh well.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:34 PM
A fast roll rate allows you to reverse the direction of your turn quickly which can make up for a poor turn rate. But it can only go so far. In the release version of FB the Fw 190's high speed turn rate and even its roll rate are unrealistically slow. In the patch beta's that issue is fixed. The Fw 190's will soundly out manuever all russian planes in high speed fights once the first patch is released. In high speed fights a higher roll rate can make all the difference. This is because when you reach high speeds you will black out before you reach your planes maximum turn rate. But you can "cheat" this turn rate limit by reversing the direction of your turn very quickly if you have a high roll rate. This allows you to out maneuver a plane that can turn normally turn with you if not out turn you/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I hope this answers your question.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:49 PM
The advantage of good roll rate is that you can more quickly reorient your lift vector than a plane that doesn't have good roll rate. And reorienting your lift vector is what maneuvering is all about during a dogfight.

But the differences need to be pronounced to make a big impact. E.g. at slow speeds the differences in roll rate don't have to make the big difference. But at high speeds it could play a vital part in your tactics.

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:59 PM
Buzz, Lignite, Maj Death, Oak Groove et.al. have all mentioned good points. One more option I'd like to add to the discussion is the rolling scissors. Here you're doing a continuous barrel roll, flying around the surface of an imaginary cylinder like the stripe on a barber pole. The idea is to fly a more tightly packed stripe, around a wider cylinder than the other guy, and force him to overshoot down the middle. While this requires turn rate the 190 doesn't have, what you can do instead is fly a tighter stripe around a very narrow cylinder by rolling fast with a little back pressure held in. This is like the overshoot I just described, but since you're in front, it will be an extention instead. The slower rolling pursuer won't be able to roll fast enough to get in plane with you and pull lead for a shot. Be careful at low altitude, since you'll have to vary backstick pressure as you go around, or the rolling scissors will tilt down into the ground pretty quick. Rolling unloaded won' help much, since your pursuer can put bullets through you while out of plane (if your bank changes without moving your center of gravity, it doesn't do much to upset his aim.) He can also lag off his roll rate and try for a snap shot as you pass through his gunsight periodically during your tighter spiral, but you'll deny him a tracking shot. As Lignite mentioned, you're not trying to out-turn him in either a rolling or horizontal scissors, you're trying to get out of synch with him and get an opportunity to get away, either by pointing in another direction before he can, or making him bleed so much energy by pulling lead each time you reverse that you slowly walk away from him. Keeping sight over your shoulder is tough to do while defensively scissoring too. Something like Track IR (or a fast thumb on the hat switch) would help.

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