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Tater-SW-
11-22-2004, 10:24 AM
A few things about para frags in PF:

1. They are timed fuses, which would not matter if they were dropped at proper altitude by AI. I can't find any ref that says they had timed fuses except that some were set as very long delay to attack repair crews after the attack (minutes of hours delay).

2. AI drops too high. Given the timed fuses, almost all the frags blow in the air, which DID NOT HAPPEN.

3. The B-25G and B-25H do not have parafrag loadouts. They should.

4. The AI cannot be made to fly level, low alt (treetop, 10-50m?) parafrag bomb runs.

5. They bombs seem to do more damage when they burst in the air than on the ground. I tested this by having AI bomb a string of planes ready for takeoff with my player plane holding up the front of the line. You can then look at the damage on your own plane from varios strikes (use a bomber to get more crew checks for wounds).

Simple fix? Dump the timed fuses, or make them long enough that they will burst on the ground with AI flying/bombing level as low as is realistic for the AI to do (they pop up at anything below 100m, maybe higher).

tater

BinaryFalcon
11-22-2004, 12:08 PM
I haven't done any research on them, so take all of this with a truckload of salt, but...

The name parafrag seems to imply "fragmentation", which, along with the size of the munition and number and method of delivery suggests that they were intended for use against soft and semi-hardened targets.

Because of that, an air burst would generally be much more effective than if it went off on the ground, as it would spread the shrapnel over a larger area and not really allow personnel to "hit the deck" in the hopes of getting below the explosion.

In short, they seem to me like they were intended as large, air dropped grenades hung from parachutes.

However, admittedly, I'm just guessing here.

Tater-SW-
11-22-2004, 12:38 PM
Yeah, but I have dozens of images of them dropping, none blowing in air. The definitions on the USAF site say that they were ******ed to allow attackers to escape the blast. Also, the delay would have to be bloody short considering they were dropped from treetop height.

Nothing I have ever read has nmentioned air bursts for them, though the 5th AF used 1000 and 2000lb air burst frag bombs dropped from higher alt (10k feet i think). OTOH, any ref I have that mentions the fusing at all says "contatct fused."

tater

Tater-SW-
11-23-2004, 03:08 PM
The damage radius of the parafrags is pretty variable. Or at least it seems that it's unpredictable.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/close_frag_no_joy.jpg

The crater next to the Hamp in the lower right is from a parafrag. It actually blew up a heartbeat before it would have hit the ground. Had it hit the ground there would be no crater. I wonder if they do more damage in air than on ground---not more because they spread the joy around more with an airburst, but idf they actually fake this by having a bigger explosion instead of dealing with fragments.

tater

butch2k
11-23-2004, 03:12 PM
They will be corrected, they should be impact fused only.

Tater-SW-
11-23-2004, 03:17 PM
Yeah, I know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was posting this last bit because the explosion force needs to setill be decent enough to damage things, even at ground level. I was very surprised an air-burst, which right now seems more dangerous to planes at any given distance, could happen so close and not cream a static plane.

I tested with hitting AI planes and some times a near miss holes the AI plane (you can see fuel leaking out, pretty darn cool), but sometimes they seem to do nothing. I guess that is pretty realistic, you'd only get fires if the plane was fueled up anyway, typically.

tater

Da_Godfatha
11-23-2004, 03:20 PM
I used them the other night to get rid of a pesky Ki-84c. It is real funny when you drop them from high up and the one following you runs into a cloud of parafrags. You should have read the names that guy and his buddies called me, now THAT was funny! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tater-SW-
11-23-2004, 03:22 PM
Yeah, when a plane get hit hard and dumps them it can make a mess of a formation if you have a few flights of bombers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tater

Aaron_GT
11-24-2004, 09:48 AM
"1. They are timed fuses, which would not matter if they were dropped at proper altitude by AI. I can't find any ref that says they had timed fuses except that some were set as very long delay to attack repair crews after the attack (minutes of hours delay)."

That also sounds like a class of runway denial bomb that the RAF used. (I can't remember off hand if they were 60lb or 100lb bombs).

"2. AI drops too high. Given the timed fuses, almost all the frags blow in the air, which DID NOT HAPPEN."

I think the problem is that if the AI flies really low it has a tendency to crash!

"4. The AI cannot be made to fly level, low alt (treetop, 10-50m?) parafrag bomb runs."

I've seen pictures of USAAF planes dropping from what look to be higher altitudes than this as well as very low. Was 10-50m the SOP? I would imagine that the SOP for attacking wooded targets (which is where I've seen higher drops) is tree level plus 10-50m, which might mean more like 100m from the ground (depending on tree height - I've not measured the height of trees in the Pacific jungle recently :-))

"5. They bombs seem to do more damage when they burst in the air than on the ground."

That would make sense, even if the fusing might be incorrect

Tater-SW-
11-24-2004, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I realize that air bursts should spread the joy around more, but an air burst several meters above a plane seems to do far more damage than a ground burst right next to it. That seems goofy.

The could certainly drop higher if the bombs wouldn't blow in the air as they do at this moment (hopefully to be corrected).

Parafrags were typically dropped from treetop height to avoid AAA fire. You come in masked by the trees, and by the time the AAA has a shot, they are already ducking due to frags raingin down on them. SOP seems to have been medium alt level bombing, followed by a treetop sweep with parafrags. Sometimes they dumped phosphorous bombs to supress the AAA (and blind it with low-lying white smoke). I'm sure they were also dropped from slightly higher alts as well as you suggest. It probably varied depending on what their recon showed in terms of AAA positions.

Regardless, the reson for ******ing the bombs was to let the planes dropping escape the blast, NOT for them to blow in air. The fact they needed to escape the blast of a 10kg bomb suggests a pretty low alt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

tater

butch2k
11-24-2004, 11:26 AM
The fuse were not ******ed they were armed after about 2sec, which is quite different. A ******ed fuse will explode while siting on the ground, a bomb which hit the ground before it is armed won't.
The M120A1 fuse which was standard issue on the AN-M40A1 bombs was armed after about 2 sec of flight and exploded on impact only. Drop them two low and they won't explode being armed after they hit the ground.

Tater-SW-
11-24-2004, 12:15 PM
Butch, this is very useful information. I have pics of parafrags falling from drops that are clearly VERY low, I assume they then took a couple seconds to fall.

I didn't mean the FUSE was ******ed, but rather that the fall of the BOMB was ******s (by the parachute).

tater

Aaron_GT
11-24-2004, 03:40 PM
"Yeah, I realize that air bursts should spread the joy around more, but an air burst several meters above a plane seems to do far more damage than a ground burst right next to it. That seems goofy."

Nope - the air burst should still likely do more damage.

A plane below an airburst will subtend a greater angle at the point of explosion than a plane relative to a ground burst unless the groundburst is very close as the plane has relatively large area from above (fuselage plus wings) but relatively small area from the side, unless they are very close and effectively catch the under part of the wing in the blast. So the plane will take more total damage from an airburst and AFAIK the damage model for static planes in the sim is relatively simple.

In real life on objects which naturally have a more complex damage model there will be more differences, of course, as critical hits come into play a bit more.

Tater-SW-
11-24-2004, 04:40 PM
I realize the geometry favors the air burst, but an airbust at 50m+ above and a burst at 5m next to the plane may or may not deliver the same number of fragments per m^2. The surface area is 10^2 greater for the airburst in that case. parafrags had ~1200 fragments, so that is about 0.4 frags/m^2 for 50m, and 3.8/m^2 at 5m. the area of the target (planview) would have to be 10 times the side area just to equal 1m^2 of the 5m distrant target. (and i assume 50% of the ground burst frags are directed harmlessly at the ground (perfect spherical distribution).

The geometry of the target matters, 5m dead 6 on the ground of a tail dragger would present a small area vs plan-view at 50m.

more typical might be 5m ground vs 15m air, that's 9 times lower frags/m^2 rather than 100. I tested with static and with AI planes, and the ground burst still seem to have little effect most times.

tater

Tater-SW-
11-26-2004, 04:56 PM
Oleg changed the fuse, and now they work great. Given the limittations of the AI in low-alt attacks and terrain avoidance, they can at least make a realistic drop and have the ord explode on target instead of harmlessly in the air!

Woot!

tater

Aaron_GT
11-26-2004, 05:15 PM
"I realize the geometry favors the air burst, but an airbust at 50m+ above and a burst at 5m next to the plane may or may not deliver the same number of fragments per m^2."

Sorry - I didn't realise you were talking about such different distances. My bad.

Tater-SW-
11-26-2004, 10:22 PM
I did more testing now that they burst on impact as they are supposed to (though I think I had a few collide and set each other off in the air, heheh). I think they are fine, any more damage and they'd be super weapons, frankly. Try setting several flights of planes with your own as lead plane to TO. If you don;t TO, the rest will sit there. Have some strafers come in and drop frags. You can see the planes getting damaged, see your own crew getting hit. very nicely done.

tater

A.K.Davis
11-27-2004, 02:14 AM
Just don't drop them too low, because they arm instantly. Shredded myself pretty good earlier. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tater-SW-
11-27-2004, 09:45 AM
That would be what butch2k was getting at regarding arming taking 2 seconds. You want a 2 second fall for RL to be safe (even if not modelled in PF) which is roughly 20m for an un******ed bomb dropped level. The chute buys you a little lower drop.

tater

A.K.Davis
11-27-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
The fuse were not ******ed they were armed after about 2sec, which is quite different. A ******ed fuse will explode while siting on the ground, a bomb which hit the ground before it is armed won't.
The M120A1 fuse which was standard issue on the AN-M40A1 bombs was armed after about 2 sec of flight and exploded on impact only. Drop them two low and they won't explode being armed after they hit the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Butch2k is saying that if the bomb hit the ground before arming, it would not detonate. It is a contact fuse, but armed 2 seconds after release.

In PF, they arm instantly, so you need a little alt or they'll hit the ground beneath your plane before the chute deploys and send shrapnel up your ***.

Tater-SW-
11-27-2004, 01:41 PM
Yeah, I wasn't clear, I said 2 seconds in Real Life (RL), NOT in PF. They had a reason for the arming delay---so if they dropped too low, they wouldn't get creamed (or if a chute streamered). Since this isn't an option in PF, we have to be careful (I did the math to see what kind of min alt would have been historical, and 20m is right for no parachute, so it's reasonable to assume 15m+ should be OK in PF if the explosions are modeled right.

Interestingly, if the bombs hit an OBJECT they make the big air-burst explosion, but if they hit the ground it's only a little puff.

tater

Tater-SW-
11-28-2004, 12:15 AM
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/fragattack.jpg
WOOT! Thanks, Oleg!

tater