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View Full Version : Hydraulic FFB joysticks?



Bearcat99
02-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Paccus Hawk (http://www.guru3d.com/article/paccus-fluid-head-force-feedback-hawk-joystick-interview/) coming soon... if the price is right...

We'll see... @ 250-400 Euros.. I'll be using my trusty MSFFB2 till thew brand new unused spare in the closet dies... which considering this one is 7 years old and I have spare switches.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif wont be for a while.

Choctaw111
02-20-2009, 08:58 AM
It sure is exotic, but what advantages does this have over the electric driven MSFF sticks? Will it have less play and be more precise?

rnzoli
02-20-2009, 09:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Oil splashed windscreen will feel extra real!!!

To keep it simple and affordable we let the fluid leak a little.

I don't know what's the point with this. My guess is that electric motors are not so good at "dampening" effects, the control logic needs a bit too much time to calculate motion speed and the necessary counter force, so it becomes too "coarse", so maybe a hydraulic solution will take care of very smooth dampening.

But is it worth it? I would love to have that thing for my long joystick, where strong forces are needed, and which would need very large motors...but with a desktop arrangement, come on...

Urufu_Shinjiro
02-20-2009, 09:56 AM
I see a really cool platform for an extended handle mod, lol.

Tully__
02-20-2009, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
It sure is exotic, but what advantages does this have over the electric driven MSFF sticks? Will it have less play and be more precise?
It's really hard to tell at this early stage, but it potentially has a number of advantages.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Electric FFB often has a very fine, fast vibration in the feel. Hydraulics should avoid this.,
<LI>Damping should be better. From the comment about the hydraulics being designed to leak, it seems to me that they have deliberately left a "vent" in the hydraulic pistons to allow the stick to be moved in the opposite direction to the hydraulic force. This will also provide some damping and should give very effective and smooth feel if the leakage rate is correctly chosen.
<LI>Accuracy will depend on the sensors and ADC they choose to use. According to the article they're currently using hall effect sensors. These are very stable and provided they're also using good quality ADC chips should virtually eliminate any calibration issues. They also mention converting to optical sensors. If they mean digital optical sensors with absolute positioning built into the sensor, this will completely eliminate calibration issues.
<LI>If the stick's internal electronics combine sensor information with hydraulic pressure control, in games or applications where no FFB is available and the user has chosen to have centering force turned on, the stick should return to axis centre regardless of calibration. MS FFB sticks already do this, so it's not new, but again the hydraulics should have a smoother more polished feel about it than the electrics do. [/list]

On the other hand, I see a potential down side. As the hydraulics are designed to be "leaky", whenever the joystick is generating force the hydraulic motors will be running. Hopefully there will be good sound damping, but if this isn't done well it's going to be another environmental noise to add to fan noise, hdd noise and so forth that you'll have to put up with while playing games.

ElAurens
02-20-2009, 04:15 PM
The last thing I want is leaking hydraulic fluid in my house.

Perhaps they need to speak to Honda or Toyota to learn how to build things that don't leak.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, I'm not buying the "to keep is simple we let it leak" BS. That is poor engineering, or poor component (read, cheap) choices.

Skoshi Tiger
02-20-2009, 04:54 PM
Being the proud owner of a 1972 Valiant Charger, All I can say is that oil leaks are just part of the joys of owning a truly classic piece of equipment.

If you read the article it also says that the fluid is reused. So I would assume that the hydrolic acctuators have fairly slack tolerences (Which cause the leak), but then they have a scavenging system that reclaims the fluid and puts it back into the system. I think any 'leaks' would internal and have no effect on the operation of the stick.

maybe if they tighed up the tolerences or put in seals they would have made a system that required periodic mantenance. Not what the average Joe wants to do with 400 Euro Joystick!

Tully__
02-20-2009, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The last thing I want is leaking hydraulic fluid in my house.

Perhaps they need to speak to Honda or Toyota to learn how to build things that don't leak.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, I'm not buying the "to keep is simple we let it leak" BS. That is poor engineering, or poor component (read, cheap) choices.

Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
If you read the article it also says that the fluid is reused. So I would assume that the hydrolic acctuators have fairly slack tolerences (Which cause the leak), but then they have a scavenging system that reclaims the fluid and puts it back into the system. I think any 'leaks' would internal and have no effect on the operation of the stick.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif with Skoshi Tiger. If they didn't have a "leak" then you would not be able to move the stick against the force without blowing a seal or tipping the joystick base. Hydraulic systems don't lend themselves to have the actuators pushed in the opposite direction to what the pump is trying to achieve unless there is some sort of let off valve or other means for fluid to escape the actuator piston. My interpretation is that fluid is allowed to pass the piston either by deliberately loose tolerances or by a vent in the piston. The space beyond the piston would be a scavenge space that leads to the fluid reservoir, not to the outside of the hydraulic system.

In addition to allowing the user to input joystick movement in the direction opposite to where the pump force is pushing, this would also provide some hydraulic damping. I think the term "leak" was inappropriately used, perhaps a better term would by "fluid bypass" or "pressure relief". If I were designing the system, this seems like a very good way to achieve what I've described above and I'd probably do it the same way if I were to use hydraulics.

ElAurens
02-21-2009, 08:26 AM
OK, I can understand "fluid bypass" or "pressure relief" a lot better in that context.


Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Not what the average Joe wants to do with 400 Euro Joystick!

The "Average Joe" doesn't buy a $503.64 USD (at current exchange rate) joystick.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Not that it isn't an interesting technical exercise, but at those prices it will be relegated to the same niche as the Tarmac Aces stuff.

Engadin
02-21-2009, 09:07 AM
"To keep it simple and affordable we let the fluid leak a little".

I guess - this is my humble opinnion based on the feeling I'd rather pay 350 euro instead of 1,500 for this joystick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - the word "affordable" explains it all: you can get the hidraulic mechanism a bit/lot more precise and clean also [you know, 'pro' or 'industrial' quality], but that would be notably at expenses of the cost, naturally. So, if they allow it to leak a bit after 4 years of R&D, it's because they already found the point of balance between new FFB inmersion/market price/easyness of action, use and maintenance ("keep it simple"). These guys look smart, so they would not try to put into the market something too expensive or with the same FFB feeling as I get from my SW FFB2 today but a huge lot more greasy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

engadin.