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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:00 PM
How is it that this Me162 looks startlingly like the Pe-2?
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http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/me162.jpg

And why was it a failure when the Pe-2 plainly wasn't? I can't find much info on it, anybody help?
Cheers.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:00 PM
How is it that this Me162 looks startlingly like the Pe-2?
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http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/me162.jpg

And why was it a failure when the Pe-2 plainly wasn't? I can't find much info on it, anybody help?
Cheers.

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:05 PM
Who do u think?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif GERMANS who else!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif They copy everything they see/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:05 PM
OOPS...

Luftwaffe fans are going to eat you alive for this "insinuation" ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:06 PM
You all copied me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:12 PM
I don`t see a reason why they shouldn`t copy succesfull designs.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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Cpt.LoneRanger
07-22-2003, 09:21 PM
"How is it that this Me162 looks startlingly like the Pe-2?"

Ehm, if you think the Me162 and the Pe-2 look alike, you should invest some money in a new pair of glasses... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:26 PM
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/bf162-1.jpg


Type: Light Bomber
Origin: Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG
Models: V1 to V3
First Flight: Spring 1937
Service Delivery: None
Final Delivery: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 600Aa
Type: Inverted V12 Liquid Cooled
Number: Two Horsepower: 986 hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 17.16m (56 ft. 3 in.)
Length: 12.75m (41 ft. 10 in.)
Height: 3.58m (11 ft. 9 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty: 4400kg (9,700 lbs.)
Loaded: 5800kg (12,787 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 480km/h (298 mph)
Initial climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A
Range: 485 Miles (780 km)

Armament:
Ten 110 lb. (50kg) bombs
And additional two 551 lb. (250kg) externally aso verload.

Avionics: N/A



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comments:
This aircraft was derived from the Bf 110 in response to a 1935 RLM specification for a Schnellbomber (Fast Bomber). The German propaganda department release a picture in 1939-1940 of this aircraft and called it the Messerschmitt Jaguar. The Bf 161 was a similar aircraft with a different nose and was to be used as a reconnaissance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:11 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- "How is it that this Me162 looks startlingly like
- the Pe-2?"
-
- Ehm, if you think the Me162 and the Pe-2 look alike,
- you should invest some money in a new pair of
- glasses... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger
-
-

I asked the question because I didn't know what plane it was when I first found the pic, and the Pe-2 was the nearest I could think of.
Can you see a resemblance now? After all, a twin inline-engined, two-tailfin light bomber with glass-panelled nose?
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http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/grab0000.jpg




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Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:53 PM
i do remember reeding somewhere that a russian designer

it might be (andrei?) Tupolev

or (insert first name here) Petlyakov

was inprisoned for giving infoematio to the german regarding designs for airplanes

-although it could have been a rumour, and stalin inprisoned tupolev/petlyakov because of this rumour

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:30 AM
For your info .

Petlyakov PE2

In 1938 Vladimir Petlyakov was in a jail when he was ordered to project an high quote fighter, designated Vl-100. After the beginning of the testings, due to the changing of requests, the role of the plane was changed and it was designed as a dive bomber. Modified with the introduction of a third crew member, the PB.100 entered in production at the end of 1940 and in 1941 was the standard light bomber of the Russian AF, and was built in a big quantity. From the plane it was derivated the Pe-3, a night interceptor built in few hundreds of exemplars. The production stopped at the beginning of the 1945 and the plane remained in service for some years, also in the friendly countries &acutes AFs
(Polony, Finland, Checoslovakia )

Me162

To the same bomber advertisement, after which the Ju 88 developed, Messerschmitt already led away 1936 from the twin-engine destroyer BF 110 a three-seat bomber version, which received the designation BF 162 Jaguar and as Messerschmitt BF 162 V-1 in the spring 1937 was finished. All parts corresponded at this time to the running BF 110 B up to the trunk. The trunk however was broader and possessed a completely glassed nose and a widened pilot's compartment cover. In September 1937 the Messerschmitt BF 162 V-2 (D-AOBE) was flown, which the V-1 corresponded perfectly. Despite the low-power engines it showed up that the samples were good very fast and at all in the flight performances.

And when you look carefull you see the me162 looks alot like the bf110.

Well twin engine bomber design with equal engines and with equal loadout planed fitted in a plane design may result in a similar shape to get best aerodynamics and stability. But in this case Messerschmitt was first . However there were much design copies .)

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:15 AM
Isn't copying enemy technology what war is all about? It's called progression. You have to keep up with your enemy so that they don't get the upper hand on you for very long.

Why did the russians copy the Stg44, improve it, and call it an AK47? Because they could! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:26 AM
oleg86 wrote:
- Who do u think?<img
- GERMANS who else! They copy everything they
- see-


Whoa buddy, you got it wrong. The Reds copy everything. T34 suspension, B29 (or TU4) Ak47, everything!


<img src=http://www.Super-Guppy.com/jg2899.jpg>
Executive Officer- I./JG28

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:09 AM
m preddy wrote:
Whoa buddy you got it wrong.The Reds copy everything.T34 suspension.B29[orTu4]AK47.everything.

Couldn`t just Germans copy everything and win the war,
or I am missing something.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:12 AM
russians and the us copied many designs of the germans


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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:01 AM
Dear LeadSpitter.
I am not asking what US or USSR did copy from the Germans.
I am asking.Why the Germans were so great in everything and they still lost the war? And why US and USSR were so bad in almost everything and they won the wor? Why???
Just please don't tell me USSR outnambered the Germans.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:22 AM
Gustoy wrote:
- Dear LeadSpitter.
- I am not asking what US or USSR did copy from the
- Germans.
- I am asking.Why the Germans were so great in
- everything and they still lost the war? And why US
- and USSR were so bad in almost everything and they
- won the wor? Why???
- Just please don't tell me USSR outnambered the
- Germans.
-
-


Why they lost the war? My friend there are hundreds of reasons but I would focus on three.

a) Production. A war needs huge amount of production. You have to have continuous supplies in big amounts (as U.K. and U.S.S.R.) and you have to have factories that can't be destroyed (as U.S. or eastern U.S.S.R.). Germany did not have any of these. They did not even have their own oil!

b) Population/Army number. Yes my friend it is so important. Soviets lost 20 million people in this war and still they had millions of people to fight against Germans. Americans did not even have to lose so many people, but if they had too they could have millions of soldiers.

c) Reason. There was not an instinct reason for Germans to fight. All of their opponents fought for their own land, for their own mothers and sisters. Germans fought for what? For Moscow? To live in Stallingrad or to save their mother from the Egyptians? How could a German fight with all his inside for an aggresive war? It is just impossible. People fight like Archangels (I'd rather not say hell!) when they are defending their own land, people, culture. Their own existence.

Take care man!

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:27 AM
>> Just please don't tell me USSR outnambered the Germans.

Why? Because it's a fact?

Perhaps Germany copied the Lada (Mercedes G-Model)
and the ZIL (Maybach), also?

...then it would be clear why this nation is doing
quite well :-)

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:29 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- russians and the us copied many designs of the
- germans

Okay, I'll swallow the bait. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

What did they copy? And when you say "many", do you mean like in "more than the Germans copied from the Allies"? Just curious. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:30 AM
d) Money to pay that stuff. Germany was isolated, there was no international money flow possible./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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fluke39
07-23-2003, 11:44 AM
Slush69 wrote:
-
- LeadSpitter_ wrote:
-- russians and the us copied many designs of the
-- germans
-


they certainly did after the war but i don't know about during the war
i think the japs copy some of the british planes ( or so brits believied in wartime - examples:

Sunderland & Emily

hmm thats about the only one actually i have and article on it but i'm sure it's just propaganda -names a few others but their no where near as blatent as the one above :
Thunderbolt and 'frank'
Hurricane and 'tony'
martin maryland and can't remeber of the top of my head - i'll look it up in a minute /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:35 PM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 01:38 PM
What is the deal w/ everthing german being superior and all other countries products and people being inferior... isnt that what started the war and got Germany's A$$ kicked in the first place?

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:53 PM
BBB_Hyperion wrote:
- For your info .
-
- Petlyakov PE2
-
- In 1938 Vladimir Petlyakov was in a jail when he was
- ordered to project an high quote fighter, designated
- Vl-100. After the beginning of the testings, due to
- the changing of requests, the role of the plane was
- changed and it was designed as a dive bomber.
- Modified with the introduction of a third crew
- member, the PB.100 entered in production at the end
- of 1940 and in 1941 was the standard light bomber of
- the Russian AF, and was built in a big quantity.
- From the plane it was derivated the Pe-3, a night
- interceptor built in few hundreds of exemplars. The
- production stopped at the beginning of the 1945 and
- the plane remained in service for some years, also
- in the friendly countries ┤s AFs
- (Polony, Finland, Checoslovakia )
-
- Me162
-
- To the same bomber advertisement, after which the Ju
- 88 developed, Messerschmitt already led away 1936
- from the twin-engine destroyer BF 110 a three-seat
- bomber version, which received the designation BF
- 162 Jaguar and as Messerschmitt BF 162 V-1 in the
- spring 1937 was finished. All parts corresponded at
- this time to the running BF 110 B up to the trunk.
- The trunk however was broader and possessed a
- completely glassed nose and a widened pilot's
- compartment cover. In September 1937 the
- Messerschmitt BF 162 V-2 (D-AOBE) was flown, which
- the V-1 corresponded perfectly. Despite the
- low-power engines it showed up that the samples were
- good very fast and at all in the flight
- performances.
-
- And when you look carefull you see the me162 looks
- alot like the bf110.
-
- Well twin engine bomber design with equal engines
- and with equal loadout planed fitted in a plane
- design may result in a similar shape to get best
- aerodynamics and stability. But in this case
- Messerschmitt was first . However there were much
- design copies .)


Very much true. Me-162 preceded the Pe-2 by many years. Still soviet authorities claimed that Petlyakov and Tupolev sold the plans for VI-100 to the germans simply because Bf-110 and Me-162 had aerodynamic similarities with VI-100. Fact remains that Bf-110 and Me-162 flew before VI-100 plans were completed (Bf-110 flew in '36 and was designed beginning with '34, VI-100 project started in '36).

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:01 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- BBB_Hyperion wrote:
-- For your info .
--
-- Petlyakov PE2
--
-- In 1938 Vladimir Petlyakov was in a jail when he was
-- ordered to project an high quote fighter, designated
-- Vl-100. After the beginning of the testings, due to
-- the changing of requests, the role of the plane was
-- changed and it was designed as a dive bomber.
-- Modified with the introduction of a third crew
-- member, the PB.100 entered in production at the end
-- of 1940 and in 1941 was the standard light bomber of
-- the Russian AF, and was built in a big quantity.
-- From the plane it was derivated the Pe-3, a night
-- interceptor built in few hundreds of exemplars. The
-- production stopped at the beginning of the 1945 and
-- the plane remained in service for some years, also
-- in the friendly countries „~s AFs
-- (Polony, Finland, Checoslovakia )
--
-- Me162
--
-- To the same bomber advertisement, after which the Ju
-- 88 developed, Messerschmitt already led away 1936
-- from the twin-engine destroyer BF 110 a three-seat
-- bomber version, which received the designation BF
-- 162 Jaguar and as Messerschmitt BF 162 V-1 in the
-- spring 1937 was finished. All parts corresponded at
-- this time to the running BF 110 B up to the trunk.
-- The trunk however was broader and possessed a
-- completely glassed nose and a widened pilot's
-- compartment cover. In September 1937 the
-- Messerschmitt BF 162 V-2 (D-AOBE) was flown, which
-- the V-1 corresponded perfectly. Despite the
-- low-power engines it showed up that the samples were
-- good very fast and at all in the flight
-- performances.
--
-- And when you look carefull you see the me162 looks
-- alot like the bf110.
--
-- Well twin engine bomber design with equal engines
-- and with equal loadout planed fitted in a plane
-- design may result in a similar shape to get best
-- aerodynamics and stability. But in this case
-- Messerschmitt was first . However there were much
-- design copies .)
-
-
- Very much true. Me-162 preceded the Pe-2 by many
- years. Still soviet authorities claimed that
- Petlyakov and Tupolev sold the plans for VI-100 to
- the germans simply because Bf-110 and Me-162 had
- aerodynamic similarities with VI-100. Fact remains
- that Bf-110 and Me-162 flew before VI-100 plans were
- completed (Bf-110 flew in '36 and was designed
- beginning with '34, VI-100 project started in '36).
-
-

Cheers guys, very interesting stuff. I suspect that it was the glazed nose that made me think of the Pe-2 rather than the Bf110.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance.