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View Full Version : Oleg, the 20mm MGs MUST be fixed!



Fish6891
11-16-2004, 10:21 PM
I usually fly in the 1944 Dora, I must say its outrageous the amount of 20mm ammo it often takes to down even a spitfire! Some 15 or more 20mm rounds smack into the enemy and still it can fly on at times, outrageous! The German 20mm is outrageously undermodelled! These outrages...they will not be forgotten! Nono!

Regards,
The Flying Fish

(Don't mean to whine, but I do honestly believe the 20mm MGs need attention)

BSS_CUDA
11-16-2004, 10:45 PM
no problem with the 20's on the C corsair http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Korolov
11-17-2004, 01:02 AM
I don't know what you're talking about. Spitfire snaps like a twig when hit by D-9's guns.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

MEAKO
11-17-2004, 01:37 AM
I fly spits regular and have been taken out by various types of FW190 in its first 2 second burst. Its a plane where if it hits you it can be deadly ao i can't agree with ouu.

anarchy52
11-17-2004, 02:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEAKO:
I fly spits regular and have been taken out by various types of FW190 in its first 2 second burst. Its a plane where if it hits you it can be deadly ao i can't agree with ouu. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to puke...

It has been discussed in a very long thread some time ago "An idea for the future + MG151/20" that something is indeed wrong with MG151/20 as it is much less powerfull then any other 20mm in the game while it should come up pretty good compared with other cannons.


Here's the link: educate yourself
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=1981019822



Nobody claims that MG151/20 can not take out a fighter with 2 sec burst (on D9 that's 40+ 20mm shells, on 190A it's 80+ ). Other 20mm cannons need 2-5 shells to seriously cripple or cause catastrophic structural failure.

I'm sick of people trying to keep the unfair advantage of their favorite planes over other planes. I hate being forced to use bomber-killer bastard weapon Mk108 on FW190 because 4xMG151/20 are just not powerful anough to combat effectivelly with enemy fighters (not to mention bombers).

Do not continue this thread, nothing will change, you're wasting your time. I tried with argumented discussion backed by data and evidence and accomplished nothing.

carguy_
11-17-2004, 03:06 AM
This is a big problem,although the MK108 fix made it a superb weapon,now because of small MF greatly effective also vs fighters.

MG151/20 is too weak although I tore some planes in half with a half second burst from single MG151/20.Aiming in the main body is highly ineffective,go for the wings,wingtips if you can.


The main reason is simple.I bang 20 hits into a P51/Spitfire and he`s smoking but he continues to pose a threat.Entirely not the case with MK108.

Vipez-
11-17-2004, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEAKO:
I fly spits regular and have been taken out by various types of FW190 in its first 2 second burst. Its a plane where if it hits you it can be deadly ao i can't agree with ouu. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe that is the problem, two seconds can be a long time.. compare it to four hispanos, it takes about 0.1 sec to archieve the same result..

Kosmos_04
11-17-2004, 05:43 AM
Some light reading?http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

sikira_SG
11-17-2004, 06:46 AM
The MG151/20mm ammobelt should consist with x % of mine-shells.
Here is a link that gives a view of energy output on different guns/ammo from ww2.
This is from Rings nice site.

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/air.jpg

Cheers

Sikira

arrow80
11-17-2004, 07:24 AM
well I have tracks where I emptied half of my amno load in an A-4 into a Spit and it still keeps flying just with brown smoke from engine and some fuel leaks...sometimes I can kill it quite quickly, but often it needs 20+ hits do bring down. From the other side I feel myself like in a paper plane 1 - 3 hits from spit and the wing goes off, fuel burns, plane explodes etc. I also get the impression that something is wrong here, but can live with it..

A.K.Davis
11-17-2004, 07:49 AM
bah...I tire of this discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-17-2004, 09:23 AM
its like this:

the Hispano cannons are just as powerfull as mk108s on a mustang as hispano's on 190/109

the MG151/20 are peashooters compared to all other 20s in the game wich is rediculous to say the least

data was given to back it up but nothing changed
we just have to life with it
151/20s are simply not as important as 50cals it seems http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

faustnik
11-17-2004, 09:55 AM
Oleg has been sent a lot of material (tracks, sreenshots, historical data)on this issue. He knows that there are questions about the MG151/20 DM. It's his call to make now.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
I don't know what you're talking about. Spitfire snaps like a twig when hit by D-9's guns.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Korolov,

There is no question that the Mg151s can shoot down planes in PF. The question is why the Hipspano and ShVak are 200% to 250% more effective in the sim than the Mg151/20?

***************

The AP rounds are doing more damage than the HE and MGL shells. The Hispano and ShVak have 50% AP while the MG151/20 has only 20% AP. I think this is where the issue comes from.

NN_EnigmuS
11-17-2004, 10:04 AM
like revi for fw faustnik http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

anyway if mg151/20 are corrected will be please to use them on g14/g10 too

Sig.Hirsch
11-17-2004, 10:06 AM
It's a drama , but it will never be fixed i presume , some people posted all the proofs some months ago , the velocity of the MG/151 rounds is indeed lower than HS or Shvak which were better weapons , with better penetration , but the HE rounds of the MG/151 and its power was largely enough to down any fighter in one pass (read reports , accounts , MG151 was considered as an excellent weapon by specialists ). and it's not the case in the game except versus japanese planes (try to down a wooden lagg-3 in one pass with a Me-109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
(Germans used the delta wood in 44 because they had some shortages on iron , and the russians got rid of it and built the La-9 with metal after the war ASAP , so don't tell me that delta wood equal metal , it's just not honest

anyway , sadly if we'd have had someone like Gibbage on your side asking for a fix , it'd have been immediately done (SuperBrowning .50 cal )

But i can live with it , it's a great game and prolly the best , and i respect the work of Oleg and his team (honestly ) , so i accepted that for some " game balancing" reasons , the german planes were castrated on their fire power , i just hope it won't be the same for BoB .

tigertalon
11-17-2004, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I usually fly in the 1944 Dora, I must say its outrageous the amount of 20mm ammo it often takes to down even a spitfire! Some 15 or more 20mm rounds smack into the enemy and still it can fly on at times, outrageous! The German 20mm is outrageously undermodelled! These outrages...they will not be forgotten! Nono!

Regards,
The Flying Fish

(Don't mean to whine, but I do honestly believe the 20mm MGs need attention) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with that completely. It probably has to do with both: MG151/20 are a bit weaker than SHVAK or Hispano, and german planes IMO are a bit more vulnerable (compare yak/bf series), so result is catastrophic for axis planes (at least russkies are very durable).

Mk108 is deadly, but IMO still a bit underpowered. German claims during WW2 were, that it was needed ON AVERAGE 3 MK108 shots, and 20-25 20mm to down a B17, while only 1 MK108 hit was usualy liable to down any twin engined aircraft. I'm sure a lot of people here has seen pictures of damaged allied 4-engined bombers, who have suffered Mk108 hit...

But here, many times you pepper a fighter with 20+ 20mm (Mg151/20) shells, but he flies on like almost nothing happened.

tigertalon
11-17-2004, 10:21 AM
I wanted to add one more thing: We should not forget that everybody here has much more skill in FB than any real pilot in real air-combat. We have that miraculous button "refly", which enables us to improve our skills very much, that is why we are all exellent marksmen compared to WW2 pilots.

Can you imagine a guy, who would play a computer for a first time. You would show him a plane, give him 30 hours to learn to fly (and not to shoot, as most WW2 pilots had no opportunity to shoot at flying targets during training), and then throw him into a battle...

More than 80 percent of fighter kills IRL in WW2 was because pilot did not see the attacker, who was able to cripple him in one pass...

Well, I know I have posted no data or reliable source, I posted just MHO, but anyone who read at least one 200 paged book about WW2 air combat is going to agree.

Yes, Mg151/20 does need some tweaking.

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 10:24 AM
I don`t get it... tried Dora agaisnt all spits that in the game... some went down from 1/2 birst, some from 1 sec... hey, maybe my install screwed up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG77Von_Hess
11-17-2004, 10:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
I wish my install was screwd up like yours Ivan.

Regards.

VH.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-17-2004, 10:32 AM
Hi,

Same ol', same ol'.

I thought we'd all be used to the fact that the 151/20 is porked and will never be fixed by now.

A little bird close to the development once told me that the Hispano was modelled to be 300% more effective than the 151/20 and, from what I've seen when up in the blue stuff, I'm inclined to believe that figure.

Look on the bright side - it's even more satisfying to down planes when you know things have been biased against you and makes the comments regarding the misuse of the mk108 even more ridiculous.

Cheers,
Norris

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 10:33 AM
I can post tracks, Korolov can too

faustnik
11-17-2004, 10:35 AM
For Ivan, Korolov and the other disbelievers:


Mg151/20
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Mg151vFw190test.jpg

Hispano
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Hispanovs190.jpg

ShVak
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Laggvs190.jpg

Like I said the Mg151/20 shoot down planes so, it's not that big a deal. Acting like the issue does not exist is sort of condescending though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Nobody is saying the "sim is porked" or anything like that, just that there are some small issues with the DM.

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 10:37 AM
Hey, don`t go bananas on me faust, not your style http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
All i said, i tried to duplicate what original poster said and some others and i couldn`t.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Hey, don`t go bananas on me faust, not your style http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
All i said, i tried to duplicate what original poster said and some others and i couldn`t. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Ivan. I spent a lot of time researching and carefully testing this issue. It's a area of interest I can understand, unlike flight models. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Again, it's a small issue, certainly not a showstopper.

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 10:47 AM
Let`s hook up online and see how it goes. Convince me and who knows http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OldMan____
11-17-2004, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
It's a drama , but it will never be fixed i presume , some people posted all the proofs some months ago , the velocity of the MG/151 rounds is indeed lower than HS or Shvak which were better weapons , with better penetration , but the HE rounds of the MG/151 and its power was largely enough to down any fighter in one pass (read reports , accounts , MG151 was considered as an excellent weapon by specialists ). and it's not the case in the game except versus japanese planes (try to down a wooden lagg-3 in one pass with a Me-109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
(Germans used the delta wood in 44 because they had some shortages on iron , and the russians got rid of it and built the La-9 with metal after the war ASAP , so don't tell me that delta wood equal metal , it's just not honest

anyway , sadly if we'd have had someone like Gibbage on your side asking for a fix , it'd have been immediately done (SuperBrowning .50 cal )

But i can live with it , it's a great game and prolly the best , and i respect the work of Oleg and his team (honestly ) , so i accepted that for some " game balancing" reasons , the german planes were castrated on their fire power , i just hope it won't be the same for BoB . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow!! planes made of IRON !!

faustnik
11-17-2004, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Let`s hook up online and see how it goes. Convince me and who knows http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not the one I need to convince, but, always happy to fly with you online. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The issue is best examined offline, replaying tracks at very slow speeds with arcade=1enabled.

Sig.Hirsch
11-17-2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>wow!! planes made of IRON !! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
sorry i wish i could speak english fluently , i meant steel for iron http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

thompet03
11-17-2004, 12:33 PM
I would send you money if you come here and do your install for me..

p1ngu666
11-17-2004, 01:04 PM
cheer up, il2s cannons turned useless even against 109 before pf
still dunno if there **** in pf cos ive not flown em wid pf :\/

also, makin mk108 more powerful would make it like flyin a ki84c

faustnik
11-17-2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
cheer up, il2s cannons turned useless even against 109 before pf
still dunno if there **** in pf cos ive not flown em wid pf :\/

also, makin mk108 more powerful would make it like flyin a ki84c <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Who said anything about making the Mk108s more powerful!?! Those things are uber enough!

I didn't know the YVa cannons had an issue P1ngu. Those are my favorite weapons from IL-2 days. I will check them out thoroughly!

anarchy52
11-17-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I didn't know the YVa cannons had an issue P1ngu. Those are my favorite weapons from IL-2 days. I will check them out thoroughly! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly Bellum mostly and I can tell You that LaGG's cannon has an effect similar to mk108 at least on BF-109
1-2 hits wing breaks off or fuselage cut in half
I'm not making this up stats are posted in mission reports

Korolov
11-17-2004, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Korolov,

There is no question that the Mg151s can shoot down planes in PF. The question is why the Hipspano and ShVak are 200% to 250% more effective in the sim than the Mg151/20?

***************

The AP rounds are doing more damage than the HE and MGL shells. The Hispano and ShVak have 50% AP while the MG151/20 has only 20% AP. I think this is where the issue comes from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying that we should nerf the Hispano and ShVak? Nevermind, that's a cheap shot... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Seriously, I don't have a clue of what's wrong with your 151s. In testing the Dora last night vs Spitfires of various types, the damage that resulted to the Spitfire was either a wing snapping off, tail feathers coming off, or a PK. PK's were most common - probably due to the AP rounds.

Today, I tested the 151s and the Hispano, and heres what I got:

MG151/20 on the Bf-109G-6/AS
http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/151_bf109.jpg

MG151/20 on the Fw-190A-8
http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/151_fw190.jpg

Hispano on the P-400
http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/hispano_p39.jpg

They all seem pretty consistent except for the Fw-190, which of course mounts four of the guns - so obviously, the effectiveness will quadruple.

Using the 190 above IMO is a bad example as it's prone to all forms of DM troubles currently.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 03:46 PM
What 190 DM troubles?

Use the single mounted guns to do your testing Korolov, the best ones I have found are Bg109G, P-38 and Yak 9.

That's a great Yak hit, try more sample and compare the Mg151 relative to the Hispano and ShVak.

The problem is not limited to the Mg151, but is tied to 20mm HE rounds doing very little damage. The Hispano and ShVak use 50%/50% AP/HE belts. The Mg151/20 uses 20%/80% AP/HE. So, the Mg151 is more effected by the HE weakness. In your shots, a couple AP rounds from any of the guns you tested will kill the Yak's engine from that range. The Mg151 will probably use 6 shots to kill the Yak's engine. The Hispan 3 and the Shvak 3. On a more heavily armored target the difference will be much greater.

I'll say it again:

I am not saying that the Mg151/20s do not work, they shoot stuff down fine. I am saying they are weak realitive to the Hispano and ShVak and that good sources say they should not be.

Korolov
11-17-2004, 03:50 PM
Note that I only did the 190 to show comparison of the effectiveness of the 151 when mounted in batteries. The other two were performed with the Bf-109 and P-400 - or did you miss the comments on those?

And you totally missed the point of my post. In terms of absolute power, the MG151 is on par with the Hispano.

Additionally, the 190 DM is still incorrect - note that a few hits to the rear fuselage still results in a massive fuel leak or a fire to the fuel tank. Unless you think thats OK to have, of course.

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 03:53 PM
http://www.krohn.org/kp/photos/Sumo/cd85-s09.jpg

faustnik
11-17-2004, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Note that I only did the 190 to show comparison of the effectiveness of the 151 when mounted in batteries. The other two were performed with the Bf-109 and P-400 - or did you miss the comments on those?

And you totally missed the point of my post. In terms of absolute power, the MG151 is on par with the Hispano.

Additionally, the 190 DM is still incorrect - note that a few hits to the rear fuselage still results in a massive fuel leak or a fire to the fuel tank. Unless you think thats OK to have, of course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to get testy.

The Mg151/20 is not on par with the Hispano in power, no way.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
http://www.krohn.org/kp/photos/Sumo/cd85-s09.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Korolov is the fat one! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Korolov
11-17-2004, 03:57 PM
The results of my tests suggest that it is. They are very close in ability to dish out damage.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
The results of my tests suggest that it is. They are very close in ability to dish out damage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I suggest further testing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Korolov
11-17-2004, 04:14 PM
*Sigh* I give up. No point - I've tested these weapons since last night. No matter how much testing I do, you'll always think the 151 is porked.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

faustnik
11-17-2004, 04:20 PM
Putting words in my mouth now Korolov???

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

I'm not saying the Mg151 is porked. I am saying 20mm HE rounds are having little effect.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/HispanoTest.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/Mg151test.jpg

Willey
11-17-2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I don`t get it... tried Dora agaisnt all spits that in the game... some went down from 1/2 birst, some from 1 sec... hey, maybe my install screwed up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1s is much. 25 20mm shells, mosty 25g PETN. FB models the early - before mid-'44 - 18,6g MG shell and I suspect it even models just 18,6g TNT! That should kill even a tough bomber. If you need that to down a fighter, then it's too much.

crazyivan1970
11-17-2004, 04:32 PM
I gotta see how much of that 1c birst actually landed on the target lol

Korolov
11-17-2004, 04:34 PM
I might be putting things into your mouth, sure. But that's only because most people can't shoot for ****. Of all the times I've tested, I've had what, Yak wings snapping off from one hit, or a Spitfire taking a entire ammo load or Hispanos doing barely any damage.

So, I'll ask this: How do you think the damage of all cannons should be? Do you think that the 151/20 should be identicle to the Mk108? ShVak? Maybe similar to .50 cal? (ugh)

Look, I'm not saying that there's no issue - I've been known to miss things before - but 151/20 of all types - AP, MG, and HE - all seem to be quite effective. I don't think a screenshot from either of us will convince the other.

If it really bothers you guys, you can always email Oleg with your proof. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sig.Hirsch
11-17-2004, 04:37 PM
Korolov , the problem is about the HE rounds of MG/151 which are uneffective , and that's why it is so weak .

LEXX_Luthor
11-17-2004, 04:48 PM
All you have to do is select one screenshot out of many and post it.

A real test would post all screenshots of all tests to show how often all those arrows cluster up. That's just how you conduct tests for other people besides the tester/testerette.

faustnik
11-17-2004, 04:49 PM
Yeah Korolov, I did email quite a few tracks to Oleg. He said he would look at it if they had time which is as much as I could ask for.

The Mg151 damage should be different from any of the guns you listed. Tt's not as easy as saying "make it like the Hispano". It is closest to the ShVak in ballistic characteristics, but, the belt load is different the ShVak is AP-HE. The Mg151 load is AP-HE-HE-MS-MS. What I am saying is that the HE rounds for ALL the 20mm guns are having little effect.

The issue is not "really bothering me", I can still down my targets from my 190, but, it does exist.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/bigfoot.jpg

NorrisMcWhirter
11-17-2004, 04:52 PM
Hi,

I wondered how long it would be before the 'learn to shoot' gag would come out.

Couldn't help but notice how many of those shots show planes hit almost 'straight and level'; why not do the tests again from the high angles of incidence associated with bnz?

To add to the pot, the 151/20s appear inconsistent; Hispano fire that will consistently damage the target where it seems that the time on target needs to be higher to inflict a similar level of damage (like, maybe, waiting for the 1 shell in four that does the real work?)

Cheers,
Norris

LEXX_Luthor
11-17-2004, 05:01 PM
What target?

LEXX_Luthor
11-17-2004, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>try to down a wooden lagg-3 in one pass with a Me-109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lagg was super tough, but almost no modern flight simmers know about this, and toughness was *supposed* to be its only real combat advantage. Was tough like P~40 (although some say FB P~40 suffers from weak DM). Its these boasts like lagg above that destroy crediblity. The sad thing is 151 may be Porked, but we won't learn it here, and noboby will believe it.

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-17-2004, 05:48 PM
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/idealcart.jpg

You can see a huge visual difference between the MG 151 and the Hispano

MG 151 20x82 would generate 29,000 joules
Hispano 20x110 would generate 47-50,000 joules

Both firing around 750rpm. There is really no question that the Hispanos are more powerfull then the MG 151s.

I can understand the arguement the the MG 151s are to inconsistant after all that is what many people including myself wanted to be corrected with the Browning .50cals. It was proved over and over again untill finally Oleg changed it.

The funny thing is that many I see posting here heavily critized the Browning threads stating that we just wanted UBER .50s...which was not the case. Hopefully the consistancy problem will be changed for the MG 151s. Im all for fixes and historical modeling, its just too bad that many dont share that view. No flame here...Good luck.

Charts for CARTRIDGE DESTRUCTIVENESS,GUN POWER AND EFFICIENCY,FIGHTER FIREPOWER
Can be found here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

=S=

Korolov
11-17-2004, 05:53 PM
Sorry Faustnik for losing my cool earlier... I should have eaten something before posting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I do have these tracks you can review, however -

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_151hispanotrk.zip

The D-9 taking off a Spitfire wing is mostly a 2 out of 5 instance, more often than not the Spitfire died from a PK rather than catastrophic failure.

The other two took the B-17G, La-5FN, and P-51D and tested them against the Hispano on the P-38J and the MG151 equipped on the Bf-109G-6/AS. I'd take the Hispano track with a grain of salt because I can't hit sh*t in the P-38 lately, but you can see the La-5FN went out pretty quickly and the P-51D just flat out blew up.

Through these tracks, it seems as if cannon fire is pretty comparable through all types of shells. HE seems to encourage incenidary damage, while AP causes catastrophic damage more often than not.

Another part of the problem is, we don't know where the HE/MS round is detonating at, inside or outside the structure in any incident. It also appears that the 151 has a lower ROF compared to the Hispano, although that could just be my impressions.

sikira_SG
11-17-2004, 06:25 PM
I posted a really nice page link in the first page of this page that I hardly think anyone looked at so far :-(

Here it is again:

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/air.jpg

As you can see here,the Hispano as more Kinetic energy but do by all means compare the explosive filling energy output in joules between the shells.

The total enerhy output for a ordinary MG151/20
he shell is 52703 joules (ki 31062+E he 21640)
The longer distance on the shoot the less ki E you will have left.

Now, a standard Hispano 20 mm he mk1 shell will dish out a quite impressive 75818 joules (ki 48074 + E he 27744)
So you can basically say that the Hispano standard he shell should be aprox 1/3 more powerfull compared to the stand mg 151/20 he shell if fired from the same distance as ki E is
lost along the way but He-e is kept intact until it detonate.Notable is that hispano shells have more explosive filling compared to the 151 shell,but they still manage to produce
about the same energy output.The reason is that the german filling (PETN) is a bit more powerfull compared to TNT used to fill the hispano shell.
Now the reason for writing so much is that I would like to get to the so called mine shell that is supposed to be a part of the 151 ammobelt.Not sure about the exact historical proportions should be 2/5 shells or so..not sure,
but lets look at the actuall power of this shell according to the table that I posted here.
Mg151/20mm Minegeschossen (18 g PETN) 135277 j
(Ke 27076 + E he 108201) Now that is a horsekick :-)

Now if you compare thoose figures from Havoks post : "MG 151 20x82 would generate 29,000 joules
Hispano 20x110 would generate 47-50,000 joules"
It is abit different.
Oki guys..you got some figures here discuss S!

JV44_Sikira

clint-ruin
11-17-2004, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
lagg was super tough, but almost no modern flight simmers know about this, and toughness was *supposed* to be its only real combat advantage. Was tough like P~40, although some say FB P~40 suffers from weak DM. Its these amatuer boasts that destroy any crediblity. The sad thing is 151 may be Porked, but we won't learn it here, and noboby will believe it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks lexx.

Stiglr, wood was replaced with metal for performance and weight reasons, not because of any great toughness advantage of aluminium over multi-ply wood. The difference between the La7 and La5 isn't that much other than continous empty weight reduction work and cleaning up the airframe. With a much more powerful engine and added systems, empty weight went from 2600kg to 2640kg. The last time people were discussing delta wood here the comparison came up that it's much more similar to multilayered carbon fibre than simple plywood you buy at the store. Just that it's far too heavy to use a lot of, in high performace aircraft.
RE: 151/20 vs ShVAK/Hispano. People can always fight about this one, what a show :>

It is possible to kill off any aircraft with one single drawn round from any of the guns. That's really not debatable. It is possible to be just as effective with the 151/20 as with the Hispano as with anything else. The kinds of hits that are effective with both guns differ, and from some of the more common locations people fire from [6 o'clock on a target especially], the APs absolutely dominate in terms of damage over HE shells from the same gun.

Easiest penetration test is to fire off a HE shell at an engine directly and then fire off the AP round to another target in the same place. The 20mm HEs are much much less likely to kill the engine in one hit - at most you can expect the visual damage to be advanced one or two levels at most. An AP through the engine absolutely kills it dead in the vast majority of cases. The HE shells tend to be effective at killing the wing surface of a target and killing its handling - a couple of shells in the right place will make any agile aircraft almost unusable. The AP shells will, with not a lot more work on the shooters part, burrow through to snap the wing spar in half - or with the APIs, light up the fuel tanks.

I think that a very slight tweak is needed to a few distinct areas - to do this properly with full volume/pressure calculations on every hit location simply isn't possible, you'd need new DMs for just about every object most likely. But increasing the incendiary effects only of all HE shells, and perhaps concentrating the fragments - say in a cone from the point of impact so they're more likely to all hit the same DM segment - would be a good start.

PS Norris, about whining and its effect on the game:


(Q): MGs aren€t modelled correct for MG17/MG131 and Mk108 is a joke too.
(A): Las t my post on that theme. Will be responcible for that theme only after trelease of FB and Only for FB. Thats all and finish.
As for MK-108... Ok, I'm tired of such stupid things. I now say you fair thing, that 108 is modelled better than it was (trajectory a bit better and hit weight is 5% higher). And NS-37 worse that it was. That was done only because of "Lufwhiners"! Thats all what I wanted to say today. I'm really tired of such things.
Link: 08/16/02 03:13PM

I am sure you can find some US side partisan who'll be game to swap you the 2.01 .50 cal for the old MK108 :>

faustnik
11-17-2004, 06:35 PM
Well, Havok is 100% correct about the AP ability of the Hispano, it's a very hard hitting gun. Sikira brings up the improtant question of HE effectiveness, the Mg151 has a big edge here. Here is what the recognized expert Anthony Willaims has to say about the subject:

"If we compare the values with the few data known from ballistic tests, we have some indications that the factors assumed in the calculations are realistic. The 20x80RB M-Geschoss and the 20x110 (Hispano) HE were rated as about equal; the greater blast effect of the M-Geschoss was countered by the greater penetration and kinetic damage inflicted by the Hispano. They do indeed emerge with similar scores."


************

Thanks for posting the tracks Korolov, I will look at them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-17-2004, 07:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Well, Havok is 100% correct about the AP ability of the Hispano, it's a very hard hitting gun. Sikira brings up the improtant question of HE effectiveness, the Mg151 has a big edge here. Here is what the recognized expert Anthony Willaims has to say about the subject:

"If we compare the values with the few data known from ballistic tests, we have some indications that the factors assumed in the calculations are realistic. The 20x80RB M-Geschoss and the 20x110 (Hispano) HE were rated as about equal; the greater blast effect of the M-Geschoss was countered by the greater penetration and kinetic damage inflicted by the Hispano. They do indeed emerge with similar scores."


************

Thanks for posting the tracks Korolov, I will look at them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes when certain factors were to equal out the performance difference between the Hispano 20mm and the 20x80RB is minimal. But as far as I know we have the MG 151 20x82...no 20x80RBs.

=S=

JG77Von_Hess
11-18-2004, 12:34 AM
Hello Fellow Il2. Players!

May i ask at what distance you guys normally fire from in a persue sitiuation? I have a rule of no more then 10 plane lenghts, roughly 100 meters and less. this is the case for 95% of all my firerings on enemy fighters.

I could understand the argumentation against increasing the AP rounds penetration values for the Mg151/20 in a static situation if the target was light AFVs, in this case we are shooting at WW2 fighters(my tests and experiences) This would have been good for a discussion in a tank sim. In short getting hit by 20mms are bad news, no matter whos the sender!

For an easy understanding in the power difference of LMG/HMG/ACannons(20/30mms) Go to an army demonstration and look for your self, Ill bet that u will be surprised. And for the nit pickers--> IM NOT Comparing The guns fitted on a BMP2 or Bradly to a Hispano/Mg151/20.

I do find the diffence of beeing hit by 20mms in IL2 in its current state too big, and i seriously hope it will change some day.

Keep up the good debate!

Regards.

VH.

sikira_SG
11-18-2004, 01:43 AM
Hi again guys S!

Ring is a very cool dude that made a movie that
shows a bit how different ammo works in IRL.
Check it out,its quite cool. Last shoot is with
a 20 mm he shell,and it will illustrate the point of the destructive power of he against aluminium. S!

http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/wing-test.wmv

Cheers.

JV44_Sikira

ImpStarDuece
11-18-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

To add to the pot, the 151/20s appear _inconsistent_; Hispano fire that will consistently damage the target where it seems that the time on target needs to be higher to inflict a similar level of damage (like, maybe, waiting for the 1 shell in four that does the real work?)

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have been flying 2.04 so i dont know how applicable this is but i have to agree with Norris on this point. Gernerally i have found the MG 151/20 to be significantly less powwerful than the Hisapno and ShVak. However, usually this is only in the region of 15-20%.

What I HAVE found in doing some fairly extensive testing is that there is a massive level of inconsistency in the effects of the MG 151/20. Shooting at a P-47 i could generally see and know with the Hispano and the ShVak when a shot would be effective. With the MG151/20 it felt a lot more random. Sometimes i could slice a Jug in half with a short burst for dead six. Othertimes it would fly on after 3 2 second bursts.

faustnik
11-18-2004, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

Yes when certain factors were to equal out the performance difference between the Hispano 20mm and the 20x80RB is minimal. But as far as I know we have the MG 151 20x82...no 20x80RBs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havok,

The 20x80RB refers to the MgFF M-Geschoss shell. The 20x82 M-Geschoss shell is the one used by the Mg151/20. Both projectiles were the same weight with the same explosive content content.


This is from Flying Guns of World War IIwhich is finally available from Amazon USA. Interestingly, Williams and Gustin list the Mg151/20 as having greater overall power and efficiency than the Hispano MkII.

Danschnell
11-18-2004, 12:01 PM
I know that the MG151/20 is comparitively undermodelled when I can still shoot down 6 P40s in one mission with the ammo from only the two 7.92mm machine guns on the Ki43!

Carnage2681
11-18-2004, 12:32 PM
Hmm, you tired of a 20 mm discussion, lets start a oil window discussion, this really p*ss me off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Btw, i agree that the german 20 mm seems to be weaker than oters

sikira_SG
11-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Bump !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Cheers!

JV44_Sikira

NorrisMcWhirter
11-20-2004, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danschnell:
I know that the MG151/20 is comparitively undermodelled when I can still shoot down 6 P40s in one mission with the ammo from only the two 7.92mm machine guns on the Ki43! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

Good point. I tried the Oscar out in the DCG and shot down 3 P40s and 1 P39 with short bursts of these mgs.

Try the 7.92mm mgs on the 109 for comparison.

Cheers,
Norris

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-20-2004, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

Yes when certain factors were to equal out the performance difference between the Hispano 20mm and the 20x80RB is minimal. But as far as I know we have the MG 151 20x82...no 20x80RBs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havok,

The 20x80RB refers to the MgFF M-Geschoss shell. The 20x82 M-Geschoss shell is the one used by the Mg151/20. Both projectiles were the same weight with the same explosive content content.


This is from _Flying Guns of World War II_which is finally available from Amazon USA. Interestingly, Williams and Gustin list the Mg151/20 as having greater overall power and efficiency than the Hispano MkII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MG 151/20 uses the 20x82 round. The MG-FF uses the 20x80RB round. It is the MG-FF and 20x80RB that has about equal performance to the Hispano 20x110. The aircraft in question in this thread use the MG 151/20. The Hispano 20x110 is clearly superior to it.

=S=

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-20-2004, 01:15 PM
Wait till the Tempest gets here.
4 Hispanos the MK.V version. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

anarchy52
11-21-2004, 03:57 AM
Update:

Seems to me that MG151/20 is fixed in 3.01m.

:-)

Thank you Oleg.

Kwiatos
11-21-2004, 03:48 PM
fixed? in which way? 20mm and 30mm german cannons are very weak. and where are tracers?

OldMan____
11-21-2004, 04:07 PM
beg your pardon? 30 mm weak?Mk108 can put anything down with 2 or 3 hits.. and Mk103 can put anything down TWICE with a single hit.

OldMan____
11-21-2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
Update:

Seems to me that MG151/20 is fixed in 3.01m.

:-)

Thank you Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

looks like about the same as before... in other words.. as good as Shvaks, a little bit worse than hispano. So pretty Ok for me. Now that I can see where I shoot, my real firepower rating has improved a lot

faustnik
11-21-2004, 07:44 PM
All HE rounds seem unchanged in 3.01. The 20mm HE rounds could still use some looking at.

p1ngu666
11-21-2004, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
This is from _Flying Guns of World War II_which is finally available from Amazon USA. Interestingly, Williams and Gustin list the Mg151/20 as having greater overall power and efficiency than the Hispano MkII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe the luftwhiner vampires got to him? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

sorry, cheap joke but i couldnt resist http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG52_Meyer
11-21-2004, 08:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
Update:

Seems to me that MG151/20 is fixed in 3.01m.

:-)

Thank you Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Riddler http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actually I didn't noticed much difference with the 3.00 Mg151/20..

faustnik
11-21-2004, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:

Yes when certain factors were to equal out the performance difference between the Hispano 20mm and the 20x80RB is minimal. But as far as I know we have the MG 151 20x82...no 20x80RBs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havok,

The 20x80RB refers to the MgFF M-Geschoss shell. The 20x82 M-Geschoss shell is the one used by the Mg151/20. Both projectiles were the same weight with the same explosive content content.


This is from _Flying Guns of World War II_which is finally available from Amazon USA. Interestingly, Williams and Gustin list the Mg151/20 as having greater overall power and efficiency than the Hispano MkII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MG 151/20 uses the 20x82 round. The MG-FF uses the 20x80RB round. It is the MG-FF and 20x80RB that has about equal performance to the Hispano 20x110. The aircraft in question in this thread use the MG 151/20. The Hispano 20x110 is clearly superior to it.

=S= <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havok,

The explosive charge in both the MgFF MS projectile and the Mg151/20 MS projectile are the same, or do you know something that the experts in the field do not?

anarchy52
11-22-2004, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG52_Meyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
Update:

Seems to me that MG151/20 is fixed in 3.01m.

:-)

Thank you Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Riddler http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actually I didn't noticed much difference with the 3.00 Mg151/20.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! Meyer

In 2.04 it was almost impossible to make a single pass B'n'Z kill/cripple with single 20mm.
I don't play for personal stats, the most interesting factor in bellum reports for me is the Airhits and hit percentage. Before 3.01 there was a great difference in those factors between VVS and LW - LW had much more hits/kill on average then VVS. In 3.01 games I've noticed these values to be closer to each other.

This for instance would not be possible in 2.04:
http://il2fb-bellum.com.ar/rep/rep_01385.html
4 kills with 99 hits, all of them single burst only one had to be finished off with second.

Or even better example:
127 hits - 2 LaGGs and an Il-2 + a good burst in head-on on Pe-2 (one engine light smoke) all planes that do not burn or shed wings or lose engine easily:
http://il2fb-bellum.com.ar/rep/rep_01401.html

The other thing is that supposedly MG17 MGs are not as useless as they used to be.

A while ago I was using a test mission (shhot the tail of B-17) and noticed that MG151/20 all shells had HE "blossom" while hispano and shvak had characteristic HE "blossom" and AP straight through arrow. What I see in 3.01 is that not all MG151/20 shells produce HE effect. The "improved" effect of MG151/20 might be the result of adding AP shells in the belt composition. I'm not sure if HE effect of minegeschoss has been taken into account since the do not seem more powerfull then other 20mm HE.

For instance the "russian Mk108" 23mm Vya usually breaks the Bf-109 with single shell now compare it to MG151/20 MG round:

23mm Vya 23x152B
HE round weight: 467g
HE projectile weight: 200g
HE content: 7% = 14g
---------------------------
20mm MG151/20 20x81
MG round weight: 183g
MG projectile weight: 92g
MG content: 22% = 20,24g

while Vya wins in kinetic energy department due to high muzzle velocity and heavy shell, in terms of HE 20mm MG beats 23mm easily. Il-2 engine does seem to favor kinetic energy and laminated wood over chemical energy and aluminium http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Be as it may 3.01 IS an improvement

WWMaxGunz
11-22-2004, 06:59 AM
When KE damage hits a solid target, all of the energy goes to the target directly
forward. HE energy does not, but IMO it should not be seen as omnidirectional and
evenly spread either. How spread depends on the shell. I don't think these are
shaped charge at all, some blast goes to little effect and other should turn solid
parts they hit into fragments or lever against the total structure which I expect
with hammering of non-penetrating KE strikes, even some that penetrate. Whatever
is hit, whatever holds it is also jarred. Still, is it accurate to just add KE to
HE energy and say that is the effect or even potential? HE energy is rarely going
to be near 100% applied, KE will every time the shell is stopped but only then.

anarchy52
11-22-2004, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
HE energy is rarely going
to be near 100% applied, KE will every time the shell is stopped but only then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, any AP hits areas that aren't in engine, spars or similar will just overpenetrate. 20mm AP will go through a wing still retaining most of it's energy therefore target will also absorb very little energy.
The kind of effect that is most signifficant in case of overpenetrating is incidentary (API round, aircraft skin fragments, sparks etc). A hole of 20-30mm in diameter would not degrade performance as much as it does in FB(remember 2.04 FW-190? 2-3 hits by .50 cal and plane is barely flyable). I think 3.0/3.01 models this much better then 2.04 IMHO.

As for chemical energy/blast effect transfer to target - delayed action fuses improved the effectiveness of HE shells dramatically. Tests with mk108 rounds nicely ilustrate that point: if shell penetrates the skin and explodes inside the hollow fuselage the effect is just astonishing.

JG52_Meyer
11-22-2004, 09:37 AM
S! Riddler

Maybe you right and it is a little better.. but i'm not so sure. But I should test more before I can come up with a definitive conclusion.

Nevertheless the Hispano beats it easily, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I agree with the Vya, what a monster http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

VW-IceFire
11-22-2004, 09:53 AM
Subjectively the MG151/20 seems a bit better now than before. I'm not sure if its just circumstance and its still not the same as the Hispano but the differences are smaller by a bit it seems.

Maybe its the DM's rather than the gun too.

Sig.Hirsch
11-22-2004, 09:56 AM
yes , i agree with you Icefire , it depends the planes you're shooting at , it's probably the DM that were changed and not the gun , but that 's an improvment that i'm happy with anyway

WWMaxGunz
11-22-2004, 05:10 PM
S! Anarchy!

Most people tested the shells from dead or near dead six. AP has much better chances of
catching something solid from there, you agree? Through the fuselage from rear or front,
the chance of hitting armored or vital spot is pretty high. Getting through is the point
in the model I think. For getting through the armor as opposed to blowing out the panels
or compartment what a large HE shell does, but only just on the armor or metal mass and
just with the DM function of destroying*/applying strength to* that one thing I think it
would work good if some percentage of the explosive power would be added to the KE of the
strike since what the shell blows up directly against should receive a very hard hammering
from shell metal and shock force driven at approximately mach 7 into what it strikes.
Not the full, 100% explosive energy, but some good fraction should simulate the hit, no??

The rest... that shockwave can blow holes as has been shown. The size of the blast and
the geometry of where it occurs with the place it occurs in are critical, you can get from
being dissappointed to unbelieving amazed even if you have realistic expectations. I think
that is why most military explosives uses tend to go for extra overkill, because of the
variations and doubt unlike say mining and quarrying, building destructions (now there is
a field where they are getting like art!) where things are more controlled and the goals are
not to have too much. Just for contrast.

Anyway, I also see the KE + fraction of explosive energy as a better way to assign values
to the weapons -- but IMO without including range effects, it's still not so good to say
this gun is so much and that one is so much more. Maybe not great with ranges either if
target is not factored.