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Cooper4F
07-18-2006, 11:37 AM
Hi Guys,
Fellow aviation and flight sim ethusiast in the USAF here. I just got PF, and I'm enjoying it. I finally have a computer where I can both it and IL-2:FB at full specs which is cool. I still need to get AEP.

I'm obviously somewhat behind and thus I don't know what is taboo on this forum and what is not.

As such, I'm going to risk asking about something that's important to me.

The P-40 Warhawk is my favorite airplane of WWII, and I feel it is a very underrated airplane and unfortunately some "authors" don't give it the credit it deserves.

I love to fly it in the game, and despite the variety of versions I'm still left wondering why the P-40N (the most numerous version and very important in the Pacific in particular....) isn't included.

Furthermore, I was also wondering about the loadout options. They seem limited compared to other airplanes in the game, and I was wondering if this could be addressed in a future patch?

I have the following suggestions for P-40 loadout options.

A lot of people don't realize the P-40 was actually used to carry the same three-shot 4.5-inch rocket pods you see on the P-47 in the game. It was the first aircraft to carry them.

Here are my suggestions:

P-40B/Tomahawk IIA - okay, no changes there

P-40C/Tomahawk IIB - the option to carry a 500-lb. bomb should be added as well.

P-40E - actually had two small wing hardpoints for 100-lb. bombs in addition to the centerline. Loadout options should be:

1x 75-gal. drop tank
1x 100-lb. bomb
2x 100-lb. bombs
3x 100-lb. bombs
2x 100-lb. bombs, 1x 75-gal. drop tank
1x250-lb. bomb
1x250 bomb, 2x 100 bombs
1x500 bomb
1x500 bomb, 2x100 bombs

P-40M - also had three hardpoints, but these could carry 500-lb. weapons as well

1x 75 gal. drop tank
1x 100 bomb
2x 100 bombs
3x 100 bombs
2 100 bombs, 1x 75 gal. drop tank
1x 250 bomb
2x 250 bomb
3x 250 bomb
2x 250 bomb, 1 75 gal. drop tank
1x 500 bomb
2x 500 bomb
3x 500 bomb
2x 500 bomb, 1x 75 gal. drop tank
3x 100-lb. bombs

P-40N (if it ever gets included) - same as P-40M but it could also carry 1,000-lb. bombs so I propose the same options as the P-40M but I'll add in 1,000 lb. weapons and and the three-shot 4.5-inch rocket pods

1x 1000 lb. bomb
2x 1000 lb. bombs
2x 1000 lb. bombs, 1x 75 gal. tanks
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x75 gal. tank
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x 500 lb. bomb
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x 1000-lb. bomb

I realize most of you reading this are going...."who cares", but I'd just like to give the P-40 some love and I'd like to be able to do more than just drop one bomb per mission. I want some options available like those seen on the P-47 and P-38.

Oleg I don't know if you will see this message, but please consider implementing my suggestions. I really would enjoy the game that much more if they were implemented. I know I'm not the only one that plays the game and this may sound selfish, but hopefully there are a few P-40 fans out there who agree with me.

Anyone who wants to please post on this thread and tell me what you think about my suggestion as well as the chances it might get implemented?

P.S. This is a copy-paste of a post I made over in the Pacific Fighters forum. It's directed at Oleg namely.

I realize that you're a very busy man, and I'm sure people bother you all this time with this kinda stuff, but I just thought it important to post this because the P-40 seems to be so incredibly underrated, and I think that a flight sim as great as the Il-2 and its successors deserves the most accurate P-40 experience possible.

The improvements I suggested were agreed upon by others that took part in the other thread, and I was just wondering what chance there would be of a small patch that could address these issues. Perhaps inclusion of the P-40N itself may not be feasible (although I hope so in any future games), but at least the weapons loadouts for the existing models can be changed....

If you have the time please post back here or reply to cooperlivingston@gmail.com and let me know what you think of my proposal and what the chances are of it being implemented. Thank you for your time and your work....it's truly a great experience.

-Cooper

VW-IceFire
07-18-2006, 12:35 PM
I'm all for it man...but I think its not likely to happen. Lots of planes are missing lots of armaments and the American planes in paticular have some unusual and sometimes incorrect loadouts. The P-47 has the 500lb and 1000lb combinations swapped, the Mustang lacks bazooka tube rockets, and the Dauntless can carry three 500lb bombs which is apparently not possible. Meanwhile the real loadout of one 500lb and two 100lb is missing. There are some errors here and there...probably in other planes too and we just don't know it.

I think its a lost cause here but I have high hopes for the future. The P-40F and P-40N will hopefully be in a future Storm of War game after Battle of Britain. I look forward to those two models and their armaments.

Chuck_Older
07-18-2006, 03:27 PM
Rudder inputs for all P-40s is too light according to pilot accounts

The H81A-2 we have is supposed to be the AVG machine...except it is too slow and mimics the 'Standard' H81A-2 instead of the planes actually sent to the AVG- which suffered reduction gear failure due to the more powerful and virtually hand-fit engines they received.(there was no extra production line capacity, so out of spec parts that were technically rejected on tolerance issues were hand-fit to provide engines for the planes; these engines turned out to be about 20% more powerful than the regular Alison...at least according to AVG veteran Erik Shilling, and he was there). They claimed that their "P-40Bs" could reach 370 mph in level flight. A far cry from our early mark P-40s. When we get the Ki-27, the AVG's most common opponent, the AVG Hawks will be too slow, not nimble enough ( which is fine and correct), and won't dive well enough- making a ruination of a historical planeset that is one of the most historically important we could ask for in my opinion, by hamstringing the AVG plane. Speed is it's best asset, they could disengage, speed away, climb, and make another attack. Not so with the planes we have. Oleg can't be an in-depth expert on everything, but I'm afraid that nevertheless, some big research mistakes were made. It's even questionable that the AVG got H81A-2s, some researchers suggest they were a block of -3s

Also it is very well documented that AVG H81s carried bombs on jury rigged bomb crutches- and we can't carry bombs on an H81A-2

At this late date I do not expect a fix for this. I've given up even trying to get correct codes on P-51Ds, which by the way Oleg if you're reading http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I brought up for over two years

JG7_SITH
07-18-2006, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Cooper4F:

Furthermore, I was also wondering about the loadout options. They seem limited compared to other airplanes in the game, and I was wondering if this could be addressed in a future patch?

A lot of people don't realize the P-40 was actually used to carry the same three-shot 4.5-inch rocket pods you see on the P-47 in the game. It was the first aircraft to carry them.

Here are my suggestions:

P-40B/Tomahawk IIA - okay, no changes there

P-40C/Tomahawk IIB - the option to carry a 500-lb. bomb should be added as well.

P-40E - actually had two small wing hardpoints for 100-lb. bombs in addition to the centerline. Loadout options should be:

1x 75-gal. drop tank
1x 100-lb. bomb
2x 100-lb. bombs
3x 100-lb. bombs
2x 100-lb. bombs, 1x 75-gal. drop tank
1x250-lb. bomb
1x250 bomb, 2x 100 bombs
1x500 bomb
1x500 bomb, 2x100 bombs

P-40M - also had three hardpoints, but these could carry 500-lb. weapons as well

1x 75 gal. drop tank
1x 100 bomb
2x 100 bombs
3x 100 bombs
2 100 bombs, 1x 75 gal. drop tank
1x 250 bomb
2x 250 bomb
3x 250 bomb
2x 250 bomb, 1 75 gal. drop tank
1x 500 bomb
2x 500 bomb
3x 500 bomb
2x 500 bomb, 1x 75 gal. drop tank
3x 100-lb. bombs

P-40N (if it ever gets included) - same as P-40M but it could also carry 1,000-lb. bombs so I propose the same options as the P-40M but I'll add in 1,000 lb. weapons and and the three-shot 4.5-inch rocket pods

1x 1000 lb. bomb
2x 1000 lb. bombs
2x 1000 lb. bombs, 1x 75 gal. tanks
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x75 gal. tank
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x 500 lb. bomb
2x 4.5-inch rocket pods, 1x 1000-lb. bomb

I realize most of you reading this are going...."who cares", but I'd just like to give the P-40 some love and I'd like to be able to do more than just drop one bomb per mission. I want some options available like those seen on the P-47 and P-38.


-Cooper

S!
Not saying I'm one of those guys who don't care . But GOOD LUCK on this one m8.

Some of us have been asking Oleg the same thing ever since IL-2 came out . However its for the load out of the F2 % F4 .

GL !

VW-IceFire
07-18-2006, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Rudder inputs for all P-40s is too light according to pilot accounts

The H81A-2 we have is supposed to be the AVG machine...except it is too slow and mimics the 'Standard' H81A-2 instead of the planes actually sent to the AVG- which suffered reduction gear failure due to the more powerful and virtually hand-fit engines they received.(there was no extra production line capacity, so out of spec parts that were technically rejected on tolerance issues were hand-fit to provide engines for the planes; these engines turned out to be about 20% more powerful than the regular Alison...at least according to AVG veteran Erik Shilling, and he was there). They claimed that their "P-40Bs" could reach 370 mph in level flight. A far cry from our early mark P-40s. When we get the Ki-27, the AVG's most common opponent, the AVG Hawks will be too slow, not nimble enough ( which is fine and correct), and won't dive well enough- making a ruination of a historical planeset that is one of the most historically important we could ask for in my opinion, by hamstringing the AVG plane. Speed is it's best asset, they could disengage, speed away, climb, and make another attack. Not so with the planes we have. Oleg can't be an in-depth expert on everything, but I'm afraid that nevertheless, some big research mistakes were made. It's even questionable that the AVG got H81A-2s, some researchers suggest they were a block of -3s

Also it is very well documented that AVG H81s carried bombs on jury rigged bomb crutches- and we can't carry bombs on an H81A-2

At this late date I do not expect a fix for this. I've given up even trying to get correct codes on P-51Ds, which by the way Oleg if you're reading http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I brought up for over two years
Definately there are issues here and there.

As a mission and campaign designer...we do have to make do. Storm Clouds (my Tempest campaign) makes due with the fact that we don't have a Tempest boosted to performance levels at the time I'm trying to recreate so you have a similar situation with the Hawk 81A-2...the overal flavour is there just not quite the way it should be. One could hope that things could be improved....

Are you plotting a return to the AVG with all of the new and useful planes for that scenario?

WWMaxGunz
07-18-2006, 11:35 PM
There has been trouble with US aircraft manufacturers that yes wanted and got real money
over copyright issues on plane names and model exactnesses.

Complain to Grumman and the others.

IIJG69_Kartofe
07-19-2006, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
There has been trouble with US aircraft manufacturers that yes wanted and got real money
over copyright issues on plane names and model exactnesses.

Complain to Grumman and the others.

Do you mean that incorrect pefs or loadouts on some US planes are made intentionally?

U978
07-19-2006, 03:55 AM
Before adding any new plane, I'm also in favour of fixing few thinsg in planes currently available.

Not only the payload, but also few (only few, but important imho) other things, like the P51-D 20NA flight model ("stall, stall, and stall" is a good summary of it), its important wobbling while firing, and some late-war planes uber resistance to 0.50 caliber (ok, it's late war, it's 0.50 VS improved protections, but some planes can really stand too many bullets, and I'm especially thinking about the Focke-Wulfs).

But honestly, I don't expect things to change anymore before BoB. The coming add-ons will not change the existing FMs, ammo effect,...

Chuck_Older
07-19-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
There has been trouble with US aircraft manufacturers that yes wanted and got real money
over copyright issues on plane names and model exactnesses.

Complain to Grumman and the others.

...I...don't beleive this to be the case in this scenario. Tweaking flight performance and load-out in the sim shouldn't have much to do with the oft-misunderstood 'copyright' issue that prevented some planes from being flyable- we already have the P-40s we are talking about, and performance has been changed on them before- recall the duck-walking P-40B, C, and H-81A-2 from PF's release? they don't do that anymore

And also, for example, Grumman aircraft we DO have supposedly have had FM tweaks concerning yaw instability while firing guns

Chuck_Older
07-19-2006, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Are you plotting a return to the AVG with all of the new and useful planes for that scenario?

No. I've been doing it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You and Cooper especially may be interested:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/1101061264

It works from it's own campaign branch now, with custom menu music, icon in the campaign selection screen, and also custom medals and rank

More missions on updated maps, new missions on new maps I've made, and if I can manage it, lots of custom skins by me (with help from some good templates), better and more historical background (I have very good ref now, Tex Hill's book is a wealth of info and I also have "days of the Ching Pao", which lists every AVG action), and even a little bitsy taste of service in the US Armed Forces as a Marine aviator in the summer of '41, at Pearl

All that even if we don't get the Ki-21 and/or Ki-27. It's taking longer than I expected but what doesn't?

VW-IceFire
07-20-2006, 04:22 PM
Right on! I look forward to it. I think alot of people tend to overlook some of the fabulous campaigns that get put out by the community with alot of research and care given to try and allow for a fun experience that goes well above and beyond the basics.

Hopefully the new addon will be a great boon to you. The Manchuria map, the Ki-21 and Ki-27 and so forth. I'm finishing up with Storm Clouds Part Two and by that time hopefully we'll have the B6N AI so I can use it in large quantities for my next campaign which will feature Hellcats and the Marianas Turkey Shoot.

PlaneEater
07-20-2006, 07:13 PM
Chuck, don't expect a factually acurate AVG plane. Oleg didn't even know who the Flying Tigers were until I filled him in. I seriously doubt he has the time, patience, or interest in correcting or refining the H81 to match the hand-fitted Allison research.

The H81-A2 we have--and I'm surprised we got one at all--is simply a copy-paste FM from the B and C, the same as the RAF Tomahawk versions. That's all it ever will be, barring the decryption of the .sfs files and the means for the community to adjust the FM.

Chuck_Older
07-21-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by PlaneEater:
Chuck, don't expect a factually acurate AVG plane. Oleg didn't even know who the Flying Tigers were until I filled him in. I seriously doubt he has the time, patience, or interest in correcting or refining the H81 to match the hand-fitted Allison research.

The H81-A2 we have--and I'm surprised we got one at all--is simply a copy-paste FM from the B and C, the same as the RAF Tomahawk versions. That's all it ever will be, barring the decryption of the .sfs files and the means for the community to adjust the FM.

I absolutely agree, Planeater, the AVG machines we have are P-40Bs. It's interesting that Oleg didn't know anything about the AVG. Like I posted, Oleg can't be an in-depth expert on everything, but I'm afraid that nevertheless, some big research mistakes were made.

The AVG is probably the most important unknown footnote to the war in Asia. Still to this day few people know much more about them than they were the Flying Tigers. Schoolkids in the USA certainly aren't taught enough American History to know. I can still dream that The H81A-2 gets fixed though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif