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View Full Version : Realism, priorities and modeling of Bombers in BOB



avimimus
07-14-2005, 07:59 AM

LEXX_Luthor
07-14-2005, 05:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
More versions/types and less gunners
Top gunner position is fairly important from a air warfare simulation standpoint. Side gunners and lower belly gunners are almost never used.

So far the "majority" are Voting for the Perfect Bomber. They are shovelling their own pit to fall into. When they get somebody else's Perfect Bomber, they will wish they could change their Vote. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Only a very few will be Happy.

Bill Gunsten wrote that in the future, strategic bombers could become so expensive that only one (1) bomber can be made. If it has a flat tire, the war won't be able to start. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

p1ngu666
07-14-2005, 07:30 PM
well, navigator sat and did maths for nearly the entire mission http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

english and german aircraft had less gunners

2 or 3 mostly..

avimimus
07-14-2005, 08:05 PM
Yes, when it comes to "Perfect" bomber modeling, I too wonder how many people will be happy with going through a thirty minute start-up checklist. I also wonder how many people will be happy if five years after BOB is released they have to choose between the only four bombers modeled (eg. Blenhiem, He-111, B-24 and Pe-2.)

Ah, but those requesting more roles (pathfinder, transport, asw) are almost neck-in-neck.

The Navigator is probably the most important crew man in night bombing (which may have been more important then day bombing in many cases).
Navigation beacons and radio control are also very important.
Maybe a joint radio/navigator/commander position could be modeled someday.

Anyway in a few years (1) bomber will be able to destroy sixty or so cities so I am sure that if the U.S., China and the USSR work together they could build a fleet of (5) or so aircraft and gain world domination. Thankfully some elites just don't get along (of course that also leads to possible use of these weapons) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .

MEGILE
07-14-2005, 08:20 PM
Blenheim! w00t

FritzGryphon
07-14-2005, 08:41 PM
If BoB has even one flyable level bomber per nation, I'd dance in the street.

As for the navigator, I don't think it'd be a very popular position in coop missions. But if the pencil and calculator are properly modeled, I'd use it! Purely for my amuesment, of course; its' not like the pilot would listen to me.

Personally, I like the current simplified bomber operation, especially the pilot/bombardier combo and the level stab. I can think of nothing worse than having some noob dropping my bombs for me after I have carried them to the target.

Fix the gunner killed/lose control of plane bug, and I'll strip while dancing in the street.

Tater-SW-
07-14-2005, 09:18 PM
If you cannot see the gunner position from the cockpit or the bombadier's position, then there is no point in making a player-position for it a priority (if you can, the area is getting a 3D model anyway, so why not).

Far better to have more flyable types, and let the AI do the gunning. Adding the gun positions in later patches is always an option, but in the meantime we have more toys to play with.

tater

Aaron_GT
07-16-2005, 04:56 AM
Can we have the best of both worlds?

A couple of bombers on each side modelled to intense detail, and then the others modelled with much less detail giving us a decent number of flyables?

This having been said, given the typical LW bomber crew accomodation it might be hard to model just the pilot position as so many positions are visible.

I'd say for the LW you'd need the He-111 at good detail. The Do17Z was the other main level bomber type, but the Ju87 for raids on Chain Home might be more interesting.

For the RAF, the Blenheim and Wellington would be good types to model for 1940. The Whitley would be a bit too much on the rubbish side!

Kurfurst__
07-16-2005, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Can we have the best of both worlds?

A couple of bombers on each side modelled to intense detail, and then the others modelled with much less detail giving us a decent number of flyables?

This having been said, given the typical LW bomber crew accomodation it might be hard to model just the pilot position as so many positions are visible.

I'd say for the LW you'd need the He-111 at good detail. The Do17Z was the other main level bomber type, but the Ju87 for raids on Chain Home might be more interesting.

For the RAF, the Blenheim and Wellington would be good types to model for 1940. The Whitley would be a bit too much on the rubbish side!


Good choice of selection. The He 111 is a must-have: by far the most important German bomber in 1940, if not through the war. It could be easily upgraded to more advanced versions too... Same goes to the Wellington. Most produced British bomber.

As for the Do-17, modelling it flyable would be a waste of time IMHO. It was out of production at war start and nobody would fly it if he could fly the much better Heinkel. The Me 110 have equivalent, if not better qualities...A MUCH better choice would be the Ju 88, which again could be upgraded later, and would be very popular choice, also a very important one.

Ju 87, must-be, no question about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kurfurst__
07-16-2005, 12:57 PM
Besides... the navigator/bombardier position is a must have in Luftwaffe bombers. Unlike in other air forces, in the Luftwaffe the nav/bombardier was the commander of the bomber (makes a lot of sense imho), and not the pilot who only flew the plane.

F19_Olli72
07-16-2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
As for the Do-17, modelling it flyable would be a waste of time IMHO. It was out of production at war start and nobody would fly it if he could fly the much better Heinkel. The Me 110 have equivalent, if not better qualities...A MUCH better choice would be the Ju 88, which again could be upgraded later, and would be very popular choice, also a very important one.


I feel i have to correct you on some points:

#1 Dornier 17 was still in production in wartime, about 1700 Do-17z's was produced 1939-1940.

#2 Do17 wasnt rare during BoB, in fact it was used extensively both for channel ops and ground bombing. There was about many Dorniers as Ju88s, some 350 - 400 aircrafts. But as Oleg already decided to model the italian Fiat Br.20 numbers of aircraft used seems to have little influence of what should be modelled (at least according to the developers).

#3 Id certainly take a Dornier before Heinkel, so your already wrong there. If nothing else Dornier was faster and more maneouvrable (remember that further developments gave some nightfighter variants as with Ju-88).

#4 Performance alone isnt a qualification to be modelled flyable or not, otherwise we wouldnt have Gloster Gladiator and Fiat Cr.42, P.11 etc in FB.

It could take a beating too:
http://web.wt.net/~kikuko/Do17depot/html/Do-17survival.htm

FritzGryphon
07-16-2005, 04:08 PM
If Germany is to have flyable level bomber in BoB, I'd cross my fingers for Do-17 as well.

If for no other reason than it would be new. He-111 and soon Ju-88 will be playable in PF. Would be a shame to see the same bomber modeled again in BoB.

LEXX_Luthor
07-16-2005, 04:46 PM
Flybable Do~217 is a must have.

I would like Ju~86, maybe for Polish addon, as it was my Fave bomber when I was just a Squish. Anyway a Spanish Civil WAR sim would bring flight simming out of the "niche" market that all the repeated P-51/Bf/Fw dogfight games got us into over the years. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

KOM.Nausicaa
07-17-2005, 03:57 AM
Hi,

F19_Olli72 is right. All of the important Luftwaffe bombers types where extensively used in the BoB and the Do17 series was part of that. In fact in the early phases of the BoB, like the "Kanalkampf", (July 1940) it was more used then the Heinckel, since attacks where carried mainly against shipping and harbour installations. The He 111 did not have a torpedo at that time and so the LW employed bombers types against shipping that where able to execute dive bombing. But the Do17 was really used throughout the whole BoB, also on the english mainland, against small targets such as railway junctions f. example. As the Ju87 dissapeared from the BoB-theatre later on, the He 111, Do17, Ju88 and Me110 (yes) stayed throughout the whole conflict.

Bomber types used in the BoB (July-October 1940)

Do 17:

E-2
E-3
M (Bramo 323A)
P-1 (Recon. Camera in Bomb Bay)
U (New bulged forward fuselage)
Z-1
Z-2 (six machine guns)
Z-3 (recon)

Do 215:

B-1 (Recon)
B-4 (Recon)

Heinkel HE 111:

D (Dustbin turret)
P-1
P-2
P-5
H-1
H-2
H-3 (some fitted with 20 mm guns in the nose)
H-4 (2000lb or one 4000lb bomb externally)
H-5 (external bomb load 5,510lb)

Ju 87:

B-1
B-2
R (additional fuel tanks under the wings)

Ju 88:

I-I (first production model)
A-1
A-5 (wing span increased to 65ft 10 1/2 in.)

Me 110:

C-1
C-2 (revised electrics)
C-4 (Main variant operated)
C-4B (Fighter Bomber)
C-5 (Camera replacing nose cannon)
D-0
D-1

Units of the Luftwaffe using the Do17 during the BoB:

2.(F)22 (Aukl.Gr.22 Stab)
3.(F)22 (Aukl.Gr.22 Stab)

1.(F)22 (Aukl.Gr.122 Stab)

KG2 Stab, I, II, III
KG3 Stab, I, II, III
St.G2 Stab
2.(F)11

1.(F)123 (Aukl.Gr.123 Stab)
2.(F)123 (Aukl.Gr.123 Stab)
3.(F)123 (Aukl.Gr.123 Stab)

KG26 Stab, I, II, III and reserve Staffel

3./(F)31

K.Fl.Gr. 606

Aukl.Gr.123 Stab

4./(F)121
4./(F)14

St.G.3 Stab

This list is complete.

Nausicaa

Kurfurst__
07-17-2005, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
I feel i have to correct you on some points:

#1 Dornier 17 was still in production in wartime, about 1700 Do-17z's was produced 1939-1940.

I stand corrected, I was recalling the Battlefield series iirc.


#2 Do17 wasnt rare during BoB, in fact it was used extensively both for channel ops and ground bombing. There was about many Dorniers as Ju88s, some 350 - 400 aircrafts. But as Oleg already decided to model the italian Fiat Br.20 numbers of aircraft used seems to have little influence of what should be modelled (at least according to the developers).

That`s not the point... if Oleg modells the Do 17, it`s cocpit cannot be upgraded so easily to later models as could be the Ju 88... the Do 17 was removed for service, so it would delay development of later add-on flyable bombers, if Oleg has to model the Do17 fist, then do the Ju 88(s) from sratch...

It would be nice though, I don`t know a sim where it was flyable ever, but still...




#3 Id certainly take a Dornier before Heinkel, so your already wrong there. If nothing else Dornier was faster and more maneouvrable (remember that further developments gave some nightfighter variants as with Ju-88).

Hmm, the Do17 was pretty much as slow as the Heinkel, not if that, 10-20 kph would matter. It was known to be tough, but the Heinkel was as well. As for nightfighter variants, that was the Do 217N, but that`s a completely different plane than the Do17, being a much bigger.

csThor
07-17-2005, 07:24 AM
Personally I think all three bombers - the Ju 88, the Do-17 and the He 111 - need to be flyable in BoB. Back then it wasn't a free choice for the crews what to fly and leaving one or two out would only limit mission/campaign diversity.

Kurfurst__
07-17-2005, 07:38 AM
Of course I`d like that too... but there`s the developers capacity to do it... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

csThor
07-17-2005, 10:37 AM
Well ... since we don't have myriads of different planes it might be possible after all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Wait a minute. What Oleg needs to do is set modding standards to allow all three bombers to be modded Flyable. Then we go from there.

If modding standards are too high to allow major (tactical) bombers to be made Flyable, then we will get dumped into the same situation we have today with very few tactical bombers compared to all the dogfighter planes.

FritzGryphon
07-18-2005, 08:18 PM
I don't think standards are a problem.

Look at IL2/FB/PF for example. A lot of the 3rd party cockpits look poor.

Planes that don't make it are usually rejected because thay are not finished, or have errors. Quality is not a big factor (just look at P.11 and P47).

LEXX_Luthor
07-19-2005, 03:15 AM
Fritz::
I don't think standards are a problem.

Look at IL2/FB/PF for example. A lot of the 3rd party cockpits look poor.
Partially correct. Its not entirely the Quality causing the problem, but the Quantity of crew stations that no flight simmer has any interest in using. Nobody wants to fly side gunner -- and -- few resources are available on these types of crew stations. Its a double whammy.

In fact, I read that Oleg is using new methods of texturing that make things easier and/or much better looking for the same effort expended. That's as far as I know how to put it. But 6 bomber crew stations is as hard to mod and find resources for as 6 single seat Ace Dogfighter cockpits, and you only get one plane. Something went wrong here.

p1ngu666
07-19-2005, 08:12 AM
hm
welligton, some whitleys, lanc, hallifax and maybe stirling all used same rear turret

so u have 1 less todo, if u make one of them.
2 gunner, pilot and bomb aimer

F19_Olli72
07-21-2005, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
As for nightfighter variants, that was the Do 217N, but that`s a completely different plane than the Do17, being a much bigger.

Do 17 was produced in nightfighterversions; Do 17 Z-10 had the same lenght and wingspan as the previous Do 17 Z bomberversions. It had forward firing mg's as well as cannons. Also it had Lichtenstein C1 radar and Spanner-II Anlage infrared detection device.

And there were nightfighter versions of Do 215 (215 B-5), which was an export version of Do 17 Z.

JG53Frankyboy
07-21-2005, 05:04 AM
for gameplay i hope that maddox will make the Ju88A-1 flyable for his "BoB" game.
because it would be more interesting for gameplay than the He111 and Do17 .
it can level- AND divebomb.

also for later updates its cockpit could me modified for later versions like Ju88A-4 , Ju88A-4/Torp .....
important for his planed MTO adon.

so , if i would have to select:
Ju88 - and not He111/Do17 as flyable.

JG53Frankyboy
07-21-2005, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
If Germany is to have flyable level bomber in BoB, I'd cross my fingers for Do-17 as well.

If for no other reason than it would be new. He-111 and soon Ju-88 will be playable in PF. Would be a shame to see the same bomber modeled again in BoB.

well, with that reason also no Hurricane Mk.I, Bf109E-4 , Ju87B would be "needed" for BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FritzGryphon
07-21-2005, 08:27 PM
Of course. Much better to have flyable Lysander, Defiant, He-51 and Bf-108.

Spitfire and 109, so overdone...

But seriously, I'd say the BoB-specific nature of Do-17 works in its favor, not against. Ju-88 and Heinkel used in all theatres, and kind of 'generic', but Dornier is pure BoB plane. It's the only opportunity for it to be flyable, ever.

If not, there will be addons and addons, all the way back to the Russia, and people will say "Where's the Dornier? Him name is Hopkin Green Dornier. I'll find my Dornier." But they won't find, because of all the 3rd party post war whiz-bang fighters will be made instead, and no one will have time for the poor, neglected cr@p planes anymore. What a world.

F19_Olli72
07-22-2005, 04:31 AM
Personally i think Oleg & Co should ask for specific models by 3d party modellers this time around. Planes that actually took part in BoB (or the following theatres of addons).

I hope Oleg wont be so lenient about accepting prototypes or fantasy planes in BoB as he was with FB/PF.

KOM.Nausicaa
07-22-2005, 06:51 AM
Guys you have to see the whole thing also from the POV of the General Public, a public Oleg has to count with as his products still have to succeed on the economical level as well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, and not only on the technical or historical level.
From this perspective BoB just has to have flyable bombers. The bombers like the distinct He111 and Stuka (just as example) are mythical and even known to a public that knows planes or WW2 history only superficially compared to people like here. More over, BoB (if we define it as being from July to October '40---an interpretation that can be discussed) was a theatre that was "active" over a relative short period of time, with a relatively small number of distinct planes. Maybe that and the ferocity of the combats is the reason it's so well known today, and why it has that touch of "legend" to it. Not many planes flew in the BoB, and not many versions, if you compare it to a geographically and chronologiocally "stretched" theatre like the eastern front, or the PTO.

If you want to bring out a new flight-sim with a new engine, and therefor as stand-alone, you must include a minimum of 10-15 flyable planes.
Well, seen the relatively small number of distinct planes that play an important part in the BoB, this number of 10-15 planes minimum in order to be able to ask a price of 50 euros brings us to the conclusion that planes like the He111 and the Stuka, and maybe also the Ju88 and the Do17 just have to be flyable. There was just not enough around in the BoB to make this choice really hard. Others
can be discussed, like the Italian involvement, which was in reality very short and
quite unsuccessfull, or planes like the Defiant, which where really quickly out of the conflict.



My guess of flyable planes in the upcoming BoB is the following:

British:

Spitfire Mk1, (maybe also MkII)
Hurricane Mk1 (maybe also MkIIa)
Defiant Mk1
Bristol Blenheim
Goster Gladiator Mk1 (maybe also MkII)

German:

Bf109 E-1, E-3 (maybe also E-4/B)
Ju 87 B-1, B-2
He111 probably H-1, H-2 and H-3 (can be discussed)
Me 110 C-4 and C-4B
Ju 88
Do 17

Ok let's make the count. That's eleven different aircraft, if I don't count the sub-versions. A minimum that should be flyable to be able to sell a game. But as you notice I have already covered a good part of the BoB and almost all of the really important planes of that theatre.

Here is my guess for AI planes only:

British

Fairy Fulmar Mk1
Grumman Martlet Mk1
Wellington (why not, but not really a BoB plane though, but I saw dev shots, so maybe yes)
Lysander

German

He 115 (seaplane)
He 59
Do 215
Fw 200 (strange to put that in, because it was operating from Brest over the Atlantic only, but oh well)

Italian

Fiat Br20
Fiat Cr42
Fiat G50

So what do we have in total now: 22 planes, without counting the sub-variants. Eleven of them flyable. By this list the BoB theatre is already fairly well covered. Correct me if I have forgotten something really important. I don't think so. Some things can be discussed, like the Me 109 B, but I think this list is pretty correct and could be a game that you can sell for the price of 50 bucks.

That brings me to the conclusion that bombers like the He111 etc just have to be flyable. And as the Brits also need a heavy or two in order not to feel treated unfairly, I would include the Blenheim or/and the Wellington as flyable too. I just don't have the pain of needing to choose from so many planes, because of the historical facts of the airwar during the BoB.



Best,

Nausicaa

avimimus
07-22-2005, 07:15 AM
Do-17Z also had a very small cross-section and could be a hard target. Some of the best crews operated Do-17s and it was very important.
I would personally prefer it to the Ju-88 and wait for the Ju-88 to be released in the '41 or '42 add-ons that will inevitably follow.

I would also really enjoy being able to strike back using a blenheim. It would be very good for the Med and Finland.

avimimus
07-22-2005, 07:19 AM
Did the Do-17 not have dive-bomber versions?
The -215 did!

Excellent list KOM.Nausicaa!
If only Oleg would provide such a variety (I expect more sub-variants initially).

KOM.Nausicaa
07-22-2005, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by avimimus:
Did the Do-17 not have dive-bomber versions?
The -215 did!

Excellent list KOM.Nausicaa!
If only Oleg would provide such a variety (I expect more sub-variants initially).

The Do215 was in all main respects similar to the Do17Z except for it's power plants of two DB 601A inline engines. It was seen only in small numbers during the BoB and in most cases in a reconnaissance role.

Used variants:
Do 215 B-1 Recon, equipped with cameras
Do 215 B-4 Different Camera equipment

That is why I made it AI plane only in my list.
Thanks for the compliments BTW.

You are right about the subvariants. You can get loose on that one, as there are so many around, especially on the german side. But I was more interested in the planetypes in general that were used in the BoB.

Yes, the Do17 was used as a dive-bomber on shipping and on land-targets. If you call "dive-bombing" a 40? degree angle attack.

Best,

Nausicaa

F19_Olli72
07-22-2005, 08:01 AM
Im pretty sure cockpit WIP shots was posted of Fiat BR.20 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But for some reason all dev shots of BoB has been removed or lost?

KOM.Nausicaa
07-22-2005, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Im pretty sure cockpit WIP shots was posted of Fiat BR.20 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But for some reason all dev shots of BoB has been removed or lost?

Here are some very good links, but I don't know if it's complete...
http://www.9-1939.pl/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=61