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View Full Version : Tin openers: NS-37 vs BK 3,7cm (Flak 18) vs Vickers S



TinyTim
03-31-2010, 06:55 PM
Recent ressurection of a necrotrhead about Ju-87G-2 Kanonvogel inspired me to do a quick test of the main 3 antitank cannons in the sim (note - Vickers S was added together with Hurricane MkIId by a 3rd party mod!)

I picked a target that all 3 cannons are able to destroy, but not too easily - an early Sherman tank. I lined up 20 Shermans (to statistically smooth out the results), shot them all up and counted the hits needed. Attack was always very similar - an approach nearly horizontally, shooting into the side of the tank. Shots were fired individually until tank was destroyed. I checked the nubmer of the hits via arcade=1.

Results:

1. Vickers S (AP ammo, Hurricane MkIId):

http://www.shrani.si/f/c/ye/2Faue43E/vickers.jpg

Average hits per kill: 15

Considering only direct hits are counted, and that ammo drums on Hurri IId carry 12 rounds per gun, Sherman is nearly indestructible target for a Vickers S gun in this kind of attack.

2. BK 3,7cm

http://www.shrani.si/f/35/kb/11l9TAqa/flak18.jpg

Average hits per kill: 4,4

3. NS-37

http://www.shrani.si/f/T/Z6/1JzxGsfm/ns-37.jpg

Average hits per kill: 3,9


Let's also take a look at the comparison of real guns:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Gun Ammo Shell Muzzle Energy ROF
weight velocity (joules) (/min)
(grams) (m/s)
NS-37 37x195 760 880 294k 250
BK 3,7 37x263B 405 1140 263k 160
Vickers S 40x158R 1130 615 214k 100
</pre>

http://www.shrani.si/f/b/W6/4d9P6pB3/tankbusters.jpg
(image taken from http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)


Considering NS-37 has by far the largest ammosupply (50 rounds per gun as opposed to 12 at both BK 3,7 and Vickers), highest rate of fire (which makes it possible to hit the target more times during a single pass) and highest muzzle energy definitely makes it the best choice for tank hunting with 37/40mm guns.

JtD
04-01-2010, 12:02 AM
Are you sure there is a random factor? I've had the impression that it only mattered where you hit, and if you hit the right spots, a fixed number of hits would be destroy the target.

For instance, it looked to me as if a hit against the tracks does not work very well, but if you hit the side of the tank, 2 hits (1 salvo) are always enough. Never tested that, so it's just an impression. Did you look into it?

DKoor
04-01-2010, 01:12 AM
Great stuffhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

I adore mudmoving... developed this love some time ago.

M_Gunz
04-01-2010, 01:50 AM
LOL, a controlled test instead of a bunch of assertions! That's a REALLY GOOD JOB there Tim!

I think that the Stuka is probably a better plane to attack from steeply above though and top armor
is generally much thinner than front and side armor and also thinner than rear armor.

JtD
04-01-2010, 03:23 AM
Did a bit of Stuka tank busting myself now, I think there are random effect. Had a row of 12 tanks set up, gave each a salvo of two round, on average killed 6 out of the 12.

Shooting the turret sides is less effective than shooting the side of the body, but there it looked as if you could hit exactly the same spot on two tanks and one would blow up and the other one wouldn't.

TinyTim, did you keep record how many of your targets blew up with the first salvo (after only two hits)?

TinyTim
04-01-2010, 03:55 AM
I *think* the damage modelling of tanks is pretty simplistic, with (at least roughly) equal probability a tank will blow up no matter where you hit (during the same kind of approach), and no matter whether you hit it before or not. It appears that whenever a hit on the tank is recorded, a probability for blowing up is calculated. I did some testing about this a long time ago, but didn't care to retest now. I doubt much has changed since then tho. Maybe something like StugIII or a SU would be a better target in this regard, having no cupola.

(As a sidenote: Case seems to be abit different if a tank was subject to a near miss with a bomb before a cannon attack. Sometimes it's possible to finish off such tanks with a 20mm - but this is just an observation from online playing, I've never thoroughly tested this effect.)

With Flak18, 9 tanks blew up with first salvo, with NS-37 10, and with Vickers S none of them (two of them even absorbed more than 40 hits with this cannon before blowing up).

JtD
04-01-2010, 04:29 AM
I always thought there was some sort of accumulated damage (also coming from the online 20mm observation), just randomness seems to be a bit poor...maybe a combination of both?

At any rate, I agree that it is very simplistic.

Thanks for testing & sharing, TT.

Choctaw111
04-01-2010, 05:48 AM
The NS37 is a very powerful gun with plenty of ammo when mounted in the Il2.
I have had so much fun with this plane.

JG52Karaya-X
04-01-2010, 08:17 AM
Does anybody have info on the HE shells the Vickers S gun fired? Points of interest are projectile weight, explosive charge weight and muzzle velocity. Thanks for any pointers!

ytareh
04-01-2010, 09:24 AM
Tiny Tim I reckon medium /heavy tanks are easier to destroy from above and less so from behind) in my IL2 experience

TinyTim
04-01-2010, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by ytareh:
Tiny Tim I reckon medium /heavy tanks are easier to destroy from above and less so from behind) in my IL2 experience

Of course, the idea here isn't finding the easiest way to destroy a tank, it's to compare the effectiveness of selected 3 antitank cannons - that's exactly why I picked the target (and an approach) which isn't easily destroyed (if I picked a truck, all of them would explode at first hit, so no comparison between cannons can be made).

Shooting vertically into the roof it's possible to destroy a Tiger with .50cals in IL-2 1946. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sillius_Sodus
04-01-2010, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
Shooting vertically into the roof it's possible to destroy a Tiger with .50cals in IL-2 1946. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah, but have to bounce them off the ground first... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KG26_Alpha
04-01-2010, 11:18 AM
Re the BK 37

This might be of interest.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/s...d.php?t=13324&page=3 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=13324&page=3)

TinyTim
04-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Shooting vertically into the roof it's possible to destroy a Tiger with .50cals in IL-2 1946. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah, but have to bounce them off the ground first... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.shrani.si/f/1v/4/qpQYCkX/50calseattigersforbreakf.jpg

JtD
04-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
Re the BK 37

This might be of interest.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/s...d.php?t=13324&page=3 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=13324&page=3)

I had a sortie where I shot 25 rounds, scored 20 hits and killed 15 Sherman tanks plus one fighter with it. Or so. So 1 hit = 1 kill is absolutely true.

LEBillfish
04-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Shooting vertically into the roof it's possible to destroy a Tiger with .50cals in IL-2 1946. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah, but have to bounce them off the ground first... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's only if you want to flip them over..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

K2

Jure_502
04-02-2010, 10:01 AM
Great experiment! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Originally posted by TinyTim:
(As a sidenote: Case seems to be abit different if a tank was subject to a near miss with a bomb before a cannon attack. Sometimes it's possible to finish off such tanks with a 20mm - but this is just an observation from online playing, I've never thoroughly tested this effect.)

Thanks for this info, just tryied it online - confirmed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif