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robban75
02-25-2006, 07:06 AM
I have been doing multiple dogfights against the 4.04 AI. Me in a D-9 and AI flying the boosted Spit IX. In order not to get shot down in the merge, a violent evasive manouver is necessary. Or you will get shot down. Dogfighting is extremely difficult. Should you ever get behind the AI, it will most likely try and dive away. When the speed is high enough, the AI will start a high G barrelroll. Even with blackout turned off I couldn't follow this manouver. Much because I couldn't match the roll rate of the AI flown Spit. If the AI ever gets a firing sollution, for even 1/10th of a second, it will hit you 90% of the time. The +25 Spit was a lethal adversary in the 4.03, but in 4.04 it is a killer! As I mentioned earlier I flew the engagements with blackout off(and overheat off). I had full power and MW50 throughout the entire fight.
It seems torque has been decreased. Allowing for extreme climb angles. Something which the AI seems to take great advantage of.


This is no Spit bash. It's all about the AI. Which has turned from good to far too good. Just my opinion.

Other than this I'm all positive about the 4.04. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

carguy_
02-25-2006, 07:10 AM
Dogfighting with ace AI is now tougher but not too tough at all.Mostly outrolling your opponent works.


Immediately I noticed that AI again has impossible aim.Once you get in his gunsite it`s all over.Half second of a mistake and down you go.

OldMan____
02-25-2006, 07:11 AM
I really didn´t noticed it. I always hated IA isntant "on aim shot" capability.


But I agree that AI (as alwyas) is able to roll better and ignore G effects.

I really think veteran Ai is themost beleivable one, since it won´t shoot you in a 0.0000000001second snapshot.

fighter_966
02-25-2006, 07:17 AM
I noticed that too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Iam flying merged 404
campaign , I dont have complains for difficulty
but some ufo ai movements should be checked (their uber sharpshooting mostly should be little tamed )but mostly its fine .Dogfighting
is about violent evasive and it is difficult..Thanks Oleg and company http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Chuck_Older
02-25-2006, 07:24 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif SuperAI had been away? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Manuel29
02-25-2006, 07:30 AM
Yesterday im my dogfight the AI has done a roll SO fast that I've thought I was playing with x4 time compr. (I usually use it when my enemy tries to run away).

It wasn't so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

DaimonSyrius
02-25-2006, 07:39 AM
I noticed today how the ace AI would be getting shots on me no matter the deflection I tried to force on them. Now, the slightest window of opportunity I give them, they're shooting [too?] well, IMO. I remember the many complaints about how, in earlier patches, it was all too easy to avoid their shooting that way, and it was true IMO. I like them now getting harder to fight against.

Cheers,
S.

robban75
02-25-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Manuel29:
Yesterday im my dogfight the AI has done a roll SO fast that I've thought I was playing with x4 time compr. (I usually use it when my enemy tries to run away).

It wasn't so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Was it the La-7? All AI flown planes roll fast, but the La-7 is king in this department. 360deg/sec rolls are common.

Manuel29
02-25-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
Was it the La-7? All AI flown planes roll fast, but the La-7 is king in this department. 360deg/sec rolls are common.

SpitV... and I was flying a Bf109-F4. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Monty_Thrud
02-25-2006, 08:16 AM
This is no Spit bash


So you don't offend us meek Spitfire fans...could you please replace spit with U-2VS...thank you very gladly... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


Actually i have to say the AI is rather harder...and just like R'n'R...i like it like it, yes i do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-25-2006, 08:20 AM
Friendly AI are still kill stealing dolts

Monty_Thrud
02-25-2006, 08:25 AM
Just like online http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Grey_Mouser67
02-25-2006, 08:28 AM
The AI are into negative g manuevers....

The eyes in the back of thier heads are back...at .3 they will aileron roll and negative g dive every time.

They are more aggressive...this is a good thing....I had a Fw firing at me from .65 Km away...never did that before...he missed.

They are definitely more challenging, but I'd like to be able to approach one from low six and suprise him or have the AI not pulling manuevers that normal people can't...that destroys the immersion... as well as the speedy AI bug...I have gone to flying without overheat to even up the odds a bit, but that ruins immersion.

robban75
02-25-2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is no Spit bash


So you don't offend us meek Spitfire fans...could you please replace spit with U-2VS...thank you very gladly... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I wasn't flying against the U-2VS. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But if you like you could probably replace Sptifire with Bf 109, as they behave similarly to eachother. The AI is just much more effective in the Spit that's all.

Grey_Mouser67
02-25-2006, 08:51 AM
Something else I noticed...yesterday, a Fw had his flaps down as he was manuevering...I had hit him and we were low and slow...I just don't remember ever seeing AI use flaps before.

ploughman
02-25-2006, 08:51 AM
The thing I hate most about he AI is it's ability to break when you opened fire, even from a position where it could not possibly have eyeballed you. Of course this can be turned against it, a faster AI can be made to turn and lose energy just by some on targetish fire.

Still does my head in though as there's no possibility for stealthy kills.

Chadburn
02-25-2006, 09:07 AM
Something definitely changed with AI in this patch. They're zooming, rolling and turning in a completely unconvincing way. I have some stock co-op missions I fly, and 4.02 was not great but manageable. 4.03 is a step backwards, unfortunately. A dogfight agains AI looks and feels like an arcade game.

The most annoying part is that high speed fights against them are out of the question because of their insane manoeuvers. I'm always fighting black outs just trying to follow or evade.

The alternative is to slow the fight down and end up in turn fights, which is fine if you're in a turning plane, not if you're in a bnz plane.

And why can they pick you off so easily when you try to evade using high g barrel rolls, but they don't even fire when you turn slow circles in front of them?

One of the earlier patch read-me's said that AI now share the same fm as human players, but there's no way that's even remotely the case. Bottom line for me is it really takes the fun out of off-line play.

quasimodo_3
02-25-2006, 09:22 AM
Haven't seen anything from the AI to indicate they've gotten equipped with thrust vectoring but I have noticed that they're climbing sooner, faster and since I'm flying mostly P-51's vs 109's and 190's in QMB with all of the AI set at ace difficulty, they're hard to catch. Getting all the E I need in a dive to get within striking distance of just one bogie leaves all the other AI way up top ready to pounce. It changes strategy that might carry-over to the dogfight servers if I can ever figure out what it is I'm supposed to do.

Doug_Thompson
02-25-2006, 09:38 AM
Well, from the single-player perspective, this is a vast improvement.

AI shooting so bad, I did a little demonstration months ago. I started up the USMC career on Wake Island, left my plane on AI, recorded it, then watched the replay of about a dozen Zeros spill all their ammo while my Wildcat flew around in circles.

Something that needs to be checked out, though: Veteran and ace AI wouldn't seek out a head-to-head confrontation, but they wouldn't run away from one before. Now they seem more shy. May just be my imagination, though. I've only had it happen a couple of times.

Willey
02-25-2006, 09:43 AM
Cheaters, wherever I am, as soon as I hover my reticle over them, they start to do some really strange and naturally impossible evasion manoeuvers... http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

Ernst_Rohr
02-25-2006, 09:56 AM
Actually, I have been liking this change.

The AI is quite challenging, and it does seem to be playing to the AC's capabilities.

I had a Hurricane on Ki-43 fight (I was the 43) and it was a heck of a turn fight. I splashed the 1st Hurri pretty fast (which surprised me) but 2nd guy was a completely different story. I managed to stick in his six most of the time, but he really made me work like crazy to do it. After expending my ammo, the very shot up, but still flying Hurri, immediately broke away as I turned off from him and dove for the deck and home. I was pretty impressed!

Playing in a F4, I watched Zero's range me with the 7.7's several times, before cutting loose with the 20's, that was plenty realistic for me!

Overall, the AI has become more challenging, and I really like it. They make you work for those kills!

On that subject though, I still havent seen any truly omnipotent opponents. I snuck up and splashed a I-16 last night in a B-239, he never saw what hit him. Now his wingman on the other hand......

RegRag1977
02-25-2006, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Chadburn:
Something definitely changed with AI in this patch. They're zooming, rolling and turning in a completely unconvincing way. I have some stock co-op missions I fly, and 4.02 was not great but manageable. 4.03 is a step backwards, unfortunately. A dogfight agains AI looks and feels like an arcade game.

The most annoying part is that high speed fights against them are out of the question because of their insane manoeuvers. I'm always fighting black outs just trying to follow or evade.

The alternative is to slow the fight down and end up in turn fights, which is fine if you're in a turning plane, not if you're in a bnz plane.

And why can they pick you off so easily when you try to evade using high g barrel rolls, but they don't even fire when you turn slow circles in front of them?

One of the earlier patch read-me's said that AI now share the same fm as human players, but there's no way that's even remotely the case. Bottom line for me is it really takes the fun out of off-line play.

I agree 100%

Well explained! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

R_Target
02-25-2006, 10:50 AM
It seems about the same to me since the last major AI change (4.01? can't remember). They still do some pretty strange maneuvers. The one that bugs me is they hop up or drop down 10m right when you get in range for a deflection shot.

GuNzABlaZiN
02-25-2006, 10:54 AM
I'd have agree with the posts in this topic. I was fighting an MC.205 on Ace while flying a P38J. I had a very hard time keeping on him while he was doing very high G barrel rolls. I was blacked out most of the time, when the fight got down to the deck, he would do insane barrel rolls and scissors 10m off the ground. Not only did it look ridiculous, he would roll slowly to one side and then snap in an instant to another and then start doing scissors again. By doing this, he evetually crashed into the ground with little damage inflicted to his aircraft. Challenging? Of coarse. But realistic? H*ll no! Giving the AI such abilities does not make it better or more realistic. Its like in an FPS when as soon as you come around a corner, your head gets blown off by the AI. But then again, if the AI was even more complex, it would be very taxing on our computers so 16vs16 games would get quite laggy. Surely it can be improved a notch.

Chuck_Older
02-25-2006, 11:34 AM
My AI is doing the same things they have been doing almost forever. I see no AI behavorial changes in 4.04. They have been evading my gunsight for years, they have been performing -G maneuvers that I can't, they don't overheat, they don't lose track of your plane, and they are better shots than I am- in certain situations

Same old same old. You guys are just noticing their uncanny ability to know when you've solved the firing equation and break as your bullets are flying towards them just now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif And the barrel rolls...I think I've been seeing that since 3.04

robban75
02-25-2006, 11:37 AM
This is just for fun.

Jump into a D-9 '45 and fight against an ace P-39Q-10 a couple of times. Let me know how you did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Also, jump into a Yak-1b, and fight against an ace Bf 109G-2. Let me know how you did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

robban75
02-25-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
My AI is doing the same things they have been doing almost forever. I see no AI behavorial changes in 4.04. They have been evading my gunsight for years, they have been performing -G maneuvers that I can't, they don't overheat, they don't lose track of your plane, and they are better shots than I am- in certain situations

Same old same old. You guys are just noticing their uncanny ability to know when you've solved the firing equation and break as your bullets are flying towards them just now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif And the barrel rolls...I think I've been seeing that since 3.04

For me it's not that. It's their new found ability to use the scissor manouver. At least in the D-9 it's close to impossible to get behind them. And they seem to retain/regain E like crazy.

Jetbuff
02-25-2006, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
They are definitely more challenging, but I'd like to be able to approach one from low six and suprise him or have the AI not pulling manuevers that normal people can't...that destroys the immersion...
Set your gun convergence to 100m. They only jink after you are within that range, so shoot at 120m and they'll be perfectly steady. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

R_Target
02-25-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Set your gun convergence to 100m. They only jink after you are within that range, so shoot at 120m and they'll be perfectly steady. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ahh I was wondering about that. Last night I was goofing around with different convergence distances and noticed they would break at different distances, but I hadn't made the full connection yet.

Grey_Mouser67
02-25-2006, 01:09 PM
Generally speaking, I have my convergence set at 175 meters...I'll mess with it, but I've never noticed any difference.

I like the idea of more aggressive, formidable AI but not by virtue of superhuman capabilities and aircraft performance.

In general, the AI seem to climb more which is good, they are more aggressive which is good, they cover their wingmen much better which is good....but

They fly around w/ radiators closed, boost on and prop pitch at 100% all the time, they do negative G manuevers effortlessly and when diving they manage to outmanuever everything, not black out and retain their energy when you break off....often climbing up behind you and shooting you!

There are some elements of the AI behavior I find refreshing, but all in all I don't think this is how the AI should be performing...in addition, there is still an issue with AI wingmen not aggressively covering my six...when it is convenient or they are bored, they might shoot, but often they just fly in formation with the guy shooting at me!

I like the opportunity to engage a bandit or bounce them unawares...I'd like to see Oleg place some blind spots on the AI and some variability in terms of being suprised...odds rise when the bandit or his wingman is engaged with enemy or they are less likely to be suprised with experience...don't like the same old negative g nose over and roll to destroy my aim....not fun at all.

Lastly, not sure which patch it showed up but the AI are definitely vigilanties...if you shoot down their wingman, the other guy will fly off, use his amazing antigravity aircraft to climb above you and return a few minutes later...sometimes crossing an entire map to find you, hunt you down and shoot you....real pilots who lost their wingman joined up with the nearest friendly or headed home if there were no friendlies.

I appreciate the work Oleg puts into the AI, but there are a few things that need to be fixed...I don't understand the programming involved, but it seems like the AI aught to follow the same G limits etc that all aircraft do...

Anyone see an AI do a negative g manuever in an aircraft that doesn't do negative g manuevers yet? I'll have to test that one!

Chuck_Older
02-25-2006, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
My AI is doing the same things they have been doing almost forever. I see no AI behavorial changes in 4.04. They have been evading my gunsight for years, they have been performing -G maneuvers that I can't, they don't overheat, they don't lose track of your plane, and they are better shots than I am- in certain situations

Same old same old. You guys are just noticing their uncanny ability to know when you've solved the firing equation and break as your bullets are flying towards them just now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif And the barrel rolls...I think I've been seeing that since 3.04

For me it's not that. It's their new found ability to use the scissor manouver. At least in the D-9 it's close to impossible to get behind them. And they seem to retain/regain E like crazy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, yes. They scissors quite well. But I refuse the scissors on them if possible. I routinely turn off engine overheat and blackouts when playing against AI now. They cheat, so do I. When they blackout, I'll turn it back on, and when they overheat, I'll turn that back on, too

CornbreadPattie
02-25-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
I really think veteran Ai is themost beleivable one, since it won´t shoot you in a 0.0000000001second snapshot.

Well they won't but I will. I think the ace level is the most realistic since there are several humans out there who are willing to spare a few rounds for the possibility of that lucky shot.

ploughman
02-25-2006, 01:27 PM
You know I really need to start thinking sideways. I've been watching the AI cheating it's logical little head off for years now and not once has it occurred to me to even the field a little by switching off black out and over-heat. Thanks for that. They are toast.

Blutarski2004
02-25-2006, 01:34 PM
Do you think that the AI FM was licensed from "Crimson Skies"?

Grey_Mouser67
02-25-2006, 02:02 PM
I can hardly stand to fly offline now...I am disgusted with AI.

I just had a Fw out barrel roll me in my B Mustang at 300mph and 20,000 ft and flatten out and just leave me in the dust...we were co alt and co energy! That kind of krapola combined with the ambitious damage model of the Fw makes offline flying with normal settings about useless.

Hello Crimson Skies!

SeaFireLIV
02-25-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I can hardly stand to fly offline now...I am disgusted with AI.

I just had a Fw out barrel roll me in my B Mustang at 300mph and 20,000 ft and flatten out and just leave me in the dust...we were co alt and co energy! That kind of krapola combined with the ambitious damage model of the Fw makes offline flying with normal settings about useless.

Hello Crimson Skies!
I had almost this exact situation in Campaign. I was in an LA5 chasing a lone 190 (not sure of version, but it was 1942 sept).

Still, I`m not complaining as, for me, it`s too early to say. In fact, I was pleased that he barrelled me me out (realistcally) and got away. Still testing...

WTE_Ibis
02-25-2006, 02:26 PM
I have several one on one dogfights set up in QMB where I practiced against ace Spit and another against ace 190, needless to say they were not too difficult.
I loaded up the Spit df after 04 and bloody hell he downed first time, second time I made him work for it. Came as a big surprise but I like it.
Concentrates the mind, though they can pull some amazing manouvers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Art-J
02-25-2006, 02:34 PM
Little OT, but it's amusing to see a thread about new "super AI" started here, while the thread about "new AI being so stupid" started "just next door" (in PF forum) at the same time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Cheers - Art

Zentaurus
02-25-2006, 03:32 PM
the new AI is superb, finally this game gets a bit more challenging again...

in II/JG54 we fly an internal campaign, mostly against AI.. we always set them on ace level and put in real big numbers of them in order to provide some challenge...after the patch we flew a mission and unexpectedly most of us got shot down. Something like this didnt happen to us for months..
i think its good, they are on ace level..so they should shoot like Ace...i mean i can still shoot better then them, so they are in no way exaggerated, what shooting is concerned they are now simply on the level of an excellent human pilot. If some dislike that just switch your AI level back...

and regarding the blackout maneuvres...i can follow them if in the same plane...and Ace pilots should also be very physically robust persons able to withstand G better then ordinary pilots...

i feel tempted to say....Stop whi....well i dont say it...

Its all very subjective, personally i am happy about an Ai which doesnt splash into the water anymore all of the time and which flys a bit more demanding..

II/JG54_Zent

NonWonderDog
02-25-2006, 03:35 PM
I've always been annoyed that the AI will always jink at the precise millisecond at which I pull my trigger, whether they "should" know I'm there or not.

Other than that, I haven't had enought time to notice any changes.

Chadburn
02-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Art-J:
Little OT, but it's amusing to see a thread about new "super AI" started here, while the thread about "new AI being so stupid" started "just next door" (in PF forum) at the same time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Cheers - Art

The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't think that the AI are tactically 'super'. What they currently are is gimmicky: no black outs or overheats and insane neg and pos g manoeuvers and as others note, jinking precisely when you fire on them.

As far as stupidity goes, one small example: Ask for cover from your wingman. "Roger, I'm with you," he'll glibly respond, and sure enough you look back and he's there. But obviously he wants you dead. He never fires a single round to cover your six despite the fact that 4 or 5 enemy planes have all converged on you. Suprisingly, the enemy don't seem particularly interested in shooting him either.

horseback
02-25-2006, 05:37 PM
Ask for cover from your wingman. "Roger, I'm with you," he'll glibly respond, and sure enough you look back and he's there. But obviously he wants you dead. He never fires a single round to cover your six despite the fact that 4 or 5 enemy planes have all converged on you. Suprisingly, the enemy don't seem particularly interested in shooting him either.
That's because the AI are all in league to destroy you...

I'm still in the 'exploration & test flight' phase with this patch in preparation for my next campaign mission, so this is disturbing news for me.

If we're going back to the dark days of FB 1.0, I'm going to be spending a lot more time in Falcon 4.0 or LOMAC...

cheers

horseback

Jetbuff
02-25-2006, 05:50 PM
I just had a frustrating 5 runs at my regular guns training mission. I usually down 5-8 aircraft in it depending on plane I'm flying and whether or not I'm "in the zone". Tonight, I could barely shoot down 2 in any run. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

And these are average AI mind you, not ace or even veteran and there's a tonne of friendlies to keep them occupied. The problem is two-fold from my perspective:

1. The AI itself now resorts to much more abrupt maneuvering even on the lower skill levels. Maneuvering that I simply cannot match with the new dampened controls. (I'm pretty definite on that now) I'm going to try 100% across the board later on and see if it helps.

2. I used to be able to keep the plane in trim but the slower responses (particularly rudder) are throwing me way off. e.g. I initiate a bank to the left and add left rudder, but by the time I've stepped on the ball, it's too late as I have stopped/reversed my bank and I have to start all over again. It's basically a feeling of constantly 'lagging' behind the game. I hope my response curve fiddling will improve this.

On the plus side, online, it may bode well for less erratic target behaviour.

SeaFireLIV
02-25-2006, 07:18 PM
I have a suspicion that taking away the `wobble` effect from the sim has caused this. y`see, the fighter AI would`ve been affected by this too and in 4.02/3 they were `slowed` by this effect. Perhaps even their AIM was slightly less accurate because of it as ours were...

I think when they hurriedly took this away in 4.04, they didn`t really test how much the FIGHTER AI would be affected. Now the AI is unaffected by `wobbles` restriction and can now fly like crazy...?

Just a theory...

Messaschnitzel
02-26-2006, 12:09 AM
To stay on an AI's tail in the 4.04 patch, I have had to switch off the blackout/redout option for the first time playing the game.

With the other patches before, I would just have to back off somewhat so I wouldn't lose complete virtual conciousness and try to line up for another shot. I have tried to use this method with no success with this patch. The AI will work it's way behind me after me losing conciousness/control of the plane. With the current patch, I have noticed that the AI will turn back earlier after extending away. I do like this because if I am flying a slower plane, The AI won't tend to leave me so far behind that I lose sight of him. (even if this is not realistic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) Before, I would either shoot a little at him or act as if I am going to peel off to get him to turn back.

I also have noticed in the new patch that after the the AI has eluded me thus far undamaged and is effectively controlling the fight, it will suddenly plow into the ground. I remember this in some of the earlier patches. Out of curiousity, what would cause the AI to do this?

On a side note, I remember that in the first patch that used the same player FM for the AI FM, I would sometimes cause the AI to spin out of control by leading him and firing a short burst in front of the aircraft during a turn. I don't know if the AI will still do this as I have not been able to cause this to happen for some time now. I miss that because it was fun to try to make them wipe out! I remember that the enemy would sometimes disappear because it had lost so much altitude due to a spin induced by the AI itself. By the time it had recovered from the spin, I had lost track of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

All in all, I have no complaints if I turn off the blackout/redout option. The rest is merely adapting to the conditions of the current patch for the game.

lowfighter
02-26-2006, 03:46 AM
Yeah, I think too the AI is doing more vertical fighting now (which is nice in principle) and more brutal maneuvres (which make AI look more gamish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). This aggresive maneuvres don't look at all convincing to me.

edit: I would prefer less cocky AI's, such that I don't need to adopt gamish flying MYSELF. It really kills the immersion, my only goal with FB is to get as much as possible into the atmosphere of the WWII airwar.

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2006, 04:50 AM
Those people who say they have to switch off REDOUT/BLACKOUT. This is totally unneeded. Your joystick settings are too twitchy or you feel the need to exactly pull too hard after the AI, causing youself this problem. I think this is actually a mirror effect of people saying certain planes don`t blackout when online, but offline, it`s the AI`s fault.

I see absolutely no need to switch off blackouts and will NEVER be doing this. The day I do this is the day I stop flying FB.

lowfighter
02-26-2006, 07:31 AM
I saw something I think I haven't seen before. A spit was closing on a damaged Ki84b, me behind trying to catch the spit. Spit opens fire, set the ki afire, AND pulls up at about 90? slope vertically, and it climbs and climbs, I'm on its tail and the moment our speed is near to stall I shoot him. Now I don't remember seeing such AI steep slope zooming up and I loved it. I think the moment he pulled up I had a slightly higher speed.

Chuck_Older
02-26-2006, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Those people who say they have to switch off REDOUT/BLACKOUT. This is totally unneeded. Your joystick settings are too twitchy or you feel the need to exactly pull too hard after the AI, causing youself this problem. I think this is actually a mirror effect of people saying certain planes don`t blackout when online, but offline, it`s the AI`s fault.

I see absolutely no need to switch off blackouts and will NEVER be doing this. The day I do this is the day I stop flying FB.

Well, to each his own! But to me, the AI can't blackout...but I have the option to choose to do so

If I could choose to have the AI black out, I'd switch blackout/redout back on.

In my book, giving the AI abilities the player can't have is the same thing as placing restrictions on the player while removing the same restrictions from the AI, which to me means I actively hamper myself because they don't play by all the rules I do. Those dirty stinking pixels ain't gonna get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2006, 10:09 AM
But Oleg has said himself that the AI will NOT make any manouevers that would cause it to black out. I do not know if this still applies to 4.04, but I have seen no need to switch off Blackouts at all.

Grey_Mouser67
02-26-2006, 10:21 AM
If I am flying on the edge of a blackout in turn...the other aircraft is closing on my so he is turning inside me...at equal or higher speed...then there is an issue.

In addition, the AI can take their aircraft beyond critical speeds...I remember diving away in a Fw from a Yak and having the Yak catch me at the bottom of the dive as my control surfaces were popping off...we all know the terminal dive speed of a Yak is poor.

I just reloaded 4.01...I think I'll do a little offline flying with that...just don't have the desync'd guns and the new planes unfortunately.

This is what drives me nuts about this game...every patch invariably brings in some really cool stuff and then proceeds to honk you off due to some "error" or "oversight".

I would dearly love to see Oleg adopt some "lean mfg principles" and release a series of small, mini patches, aimed at addressing one or two undesirable game characteristics at a time...his game is so complex that there always is the introduction of errors in his batch and queue process of releasing patches...

Lets start with the AI and then move onto
Mustang/Lightning performance
Fw, Lagg damage modelling
Radiator bug
P&W damage modelling...

And with a half dozen or so small patches, the game would be better than ever.

Messaschnitzel
02-26-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Well, to each his own! But to me, the AI can't blackout...but I have the option to choose to do so

If I could choose to have the AI black out, I'd switch blackout/redout back on.

In my book, giving the AI abilities the player can't have is the same thing as placing restrictions on the player while removing the same restrictions from the AI, which to me means I actively hamper myself because they don't play by all the rules I do. Those dirty stinking pixels ain't gonna get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

I feel the same way about this. As far as the other issues such as the AI not having to deal with overheating, dive stress limits, and other physics, the only thing that I am making a concession to is the blackout/redout option. The rest of the issues I have been able to adequately deal with so far.

[/QUOTE]Those dirty stinking pixels ain't gonna get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif[/QUOTE]

On a lighter note,

Sources exist that say the AI are not pixels. This is what the AI really look like:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/contamination/they_live5.jpg

Due to certain computer hardware and software manufacturing companies that are in cahoots with alien invaders, Your computer equipment has built in "stuff" (sorry...had to use nebulous tech jargon here... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) to prevent You from seeing what is really going on here.

Fortunately, there are a couple of IL2 pilots here that can help You:

http://fusionanomaly.net/theylivepiperfight.jpg

If You look at the photo, the pilot on the right (with the "sunglasses")has just seen the reality of the AI's appearance for the first time. Thus exposing the "myth" that it is entirely Oleg's fault that the AI is responsible for it's rude, cheating behavior.

Imagine that for every IL2 pilot out there in the world, there are 10 of the aliens that have access to Your computer and input devices. This is why IL2 pilots are made to look like inept Keystone Kops when they fly against the AI. They know Your every move before You do.

Too bad I haven't found a pair of those sunglasses yet.

Update: I have heard that the glasses cause severe headaches. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2006, 12:17 PM
wow, Messaschnitzel, I saw this film years ago as a teenager! Never seen it since. I thought it was pretty good, but 20 years later it may not be... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

sledgehammer2
02-26-2006, 12:34 PM
I am a strictly off-line flyer, and sometimes it seems like we just can't win. I hated the wobbles and the instability which made it difficult to line up a good shot in 4.02. I like the way 4.04 has dealt with that, bit OTOH I get incredibly frustrated with the AI that runs wide-*** open all the time. I just did a set-up with 2 Spit Vb's vs 2 Bf 109 F-2s. Seems like the Spit is damn near useless because of the engine always overheating. I really don't want to turn that option off but...

I love this sim and want it to be the best it can be, but sometimes I wonder if they will ever get it right. If it weren't for this I would say 4.04 is the best we have seen yet.

Messaschnitzel
02-26-2006, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
wow, Messaschnitzel, I saw this film years ago as a teenager! Never seen it since. I thought it was pretty good, but 20 years later it may not be... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I figured that a lot of the people here would recognize the movie! It is one of my favorites and is part of my collection. I saw this movie when it first came out and is as relevant now as it was then.

MrMojok
02-26-2006, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

Well, to each his own! But to me, the AI can't blackout...but I have the option to choose to do so

If I could choose to have the AI black out, I'd switch blackout/redout back on.

In my book, giving the AI abilities the player can't have is the same thing as placing restrictions on the player while removing the same restrictions from the AI, which to me means I actively hamper myself because they don't play by all the rules I do. Those dirty stinking pixels ain't gonna get away with it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

I am with Jimmy Clark fan here.

I had not though of turning off the blackouts, but it seems like a real good idea now that I think of it. What *I* had done to compensate for the AI "abilities" was to turn realistic gunnery off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I may switch that back on and turn off the blackouts and engine burnouts.

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2006, 01:06 PM
I can see it all now, everyone flying with no blackouts/redouts or realistic gunnery off and blaming the AI for it.

Strange... the `wobbles` got whined away... Will `hard to fight AI` be whined away too? I think people really ought to TRY a bit more before GIVING UP so easily. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

There are some issues with AI, but it`s not so bad some are making it... Have a little more backbone, pilots.

MrMojok
02-26-2006, 01:15 PM
I am not a whiner. I'm not playing online with you guys, I just fly offline campaigns to amuse myself. I don't see anything wrong with setting up the game up in a way that makes it the most fun for me. And if the current AI never changes again, that's fine with me.

I should add, even with all my 'cheating' I still get shot up pretty good at times. Probably I am just a bad pilot. But the point is, it's FUN ... to me.

sledgehammer2
02-26-2006, 01:18 PM
I agree somewhat with you SeaFire, I just wish the AI had more limitations imposed on them. Are we back to the days where they don't observe the same FM we do? I know there are some who say they never have although I don't agree.

horseback
02-26-2006, 01:21 PM
Sniper AI were what kept me playing the original Il-2 Sturmovik for a year or so after the initial release of Forgotten Battles (and I got it within a week of its release); the sheer idiocy of being unable to make a head-on merge with Rookie AI in the QMB without a radical E-sucking avoidance maneuver was, and is, unacceptable.

I can put up with the freaking ai gunners popping rounds into my a/c at 7 or 8 hundred meters, I can get around the x-ray vision letting them track me through clouds, I can live with their superduper SA, and I can even deal with the bald-faced lie that the ai are limited to the same FMs and DMs the player is (except for blackouts, redouts and overheating).

But when they give the fighter pilot ai the same gunnery skills the gunners have, coupled with all the rest of these built in advantages, well that's just wrong.

cheers

horseback

Messaschnitzel
02-26-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I can see it all now, everyone flying with no blackouts/redouts or realistic gunnery off and blaming the AI for it.

Strange... the `wobbles` got whined away... Will `hard to fight AI` be whined away too? I think people really ought to TRY a bit more before GIVING UP so easily. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

There are some issues with AI, but it`s not so bad some are making it... Have a little more backbone, pilots.

SeaFireLIV, How exactly are You dealing with the AI as far as blackouts are concerned? Have You had to modify Your methods to any degree, or are You still flying the same as the previous patch?

With the "style" that I am using that worked for previous patches, I have been using the appropriate BnZ or TnB suited for the particular plane type and situation.

For example, I find that when the AI has overshot the flight envelope for a specific plane in a dive and begins to pull up and turn,
I will pull up slightly and gently begin to drift out and follow on the upper outside of the AI in the turn. In the 4.04 patch, the screen will begin to fade out and I will have to back off of the turn while the AI will increase its turn and get away from pursuit with a couple of hard snap rolls and a negative G maneuver. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

This isn't that hard to deal with when flying one vs. one, but when dealing with one vs. multiple AI, it can cause problems in the form of me being the guest of honor at the St. Valentine's day Massacre. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Anyway, How do You personally deal with this successfully with all of switches set to realistic?

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:


Anyway, How do You personally deal with this successfully with all of switches set to realistic?

Man, this is hard to answer, cos, I don`t really analyse how I fly that much. There are also several aspects that may affect blackouts, for example, i`m only in 1942 flying the plain LA5 and Spit Vb against G2s. So far, the only really bad blackouts I`ve had is if I dive hard on a low target then pull up quickly.

If i`m chasing a bogey and I start to blackout, I`ll ease off the stick as soon as I notice this. Again, I always play with my combat flaps and don`t use boost too muc, so i keep my overall speed down in a digfight when close and chasing.

If I DO totally blackout, I call for help.

I have noticed pre-4.04 that in later 44-`45, faster aircraft, that blackouts come quicker. In these cases I`m always ready before hand to slow it down and not pull so hard. If the bogey pulls a move I can`t match, I`ll usually pull round to the side (at a slower speed) rather than up or too hard and track where he`s going then follow him again.

Thing is, in an LA5 or spit, all you need is a bit of flaps and a slow sustained turn and you should outturn a 109G2 or turn in a 109G2.

I`m not sure I`ve answered the question, but all I`ll say for now is, take it easy on the controls and especially speed (High speed + fast turn = Blackout) and track him until you`re back on him again.

Next time I fly i`ll watch myself and what i`m doing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

ploughman
02-26-2006, 03:51 PM
Only way I know how to deal with black outs in Spits against anyone is to add a vertical element to turns on the horizonatal, and a horizontal element to manouvers in the vertical and thus to tread more sky than the other guy. This keeps speed up and reduces the 'moment' (if you know what I mean) of "g" in the Spit. Think of it as barrel rolling into and out of most manouvers. It helps you keep behind most opponents without blacking out. When they've finished manouvering you can drop back directly in on their 6 and still be motoring.

Having said that, if I lose to the AI it's because I blacked out 'ploughed' a furrow.

Grey_Mouser67
02-26-2006, 08:26 PM
Had a new stupid AI trick today...actually caught a 109 on fire...not many fires these days as Fw's have grown asbestos armor...anyways the darn thing snap barrel rolls one revolution and instantly puts the fire out! The, heavily smoking, falls back into formation with the lead pilot...brilliant!

I can not express in words my feelings towards this new AI...it would not be fit. I thoroughly enjoy this game, and even when I was perturbed at things that were happening with FM's and DM's as they relate to online play, I could always find refuge offline.

Now there is no retreat...only constant aggrevation every time Darth Vader does his TieFighter barrel roll around my aircraft...almost makes me disoriented if I am moving at high speed and close to the enemy with him padlocked it is so fast.

In real life, changes of direction slow down with speed...you are traveling faster in a straight line, but can't change directions as easy...not in this game.

DoubleTap2005A
02-28-2006, 05:53 AM
Well Jeez, this thread makes me feel a whole lot better.

I spent last night dogfighting a couple of Ace Ki-84c's in my lone P-38L Late, and was getting PISSED that I was getting outmaneuvered so badly. Not that I am an ace, and I know I was stacking the odds against me, but the moves these guys pulled off seemed unreal to me.

Against the P-38 these guys were able to do a reversal after I blew threw them and start to GAIN on me under 1.0 while I was flying level! C'mon! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

They seem able to keep their speed up while doing reversals that were jaw dropping. No BandZing these guys, apparently.

They also definitely take snap shots and fire at longer ranges than I recall.

If I was able to get one, the other would get me eventually. The only tactic that seemed to work in the P-38 was a continuing series of hi and low yo-yo's with some flaps applied which eventually yielded at least something of a shot.

Evasive maneuvering yielded some interesting results. In one rolling maneuver with one 84 close behind me, I rolled some much and close to the ground the AI rolled sharply up and away from me and proceeded to roll all the way over and into the ground. Yeahh!

In another, he stuck on my *** during a roll and when I stop for a sec (my bad) be plugged me (Blaap!). Done.

I also noted they could take a beating. For laughs, I took a Mozzie in the last matchup and risked the head to head against them and came out on top by blasting the lead and getting a tag on the second. However, when I got behind the second one, I hit him several times with all the Mozzie's guns (and yes, I saw them hit) and all I got was a smoke trail. It took getting to point blank and opening up on him to incinerate him. Seems pretty tough.

The Ace AI should be tough, but it seemed like they were able to do things which are incredible.

Interestingly, the two planes which I had little trouble spanking them with were the Spit 25lbs, and the LaGG7 with trio cannons. I still had to be smart with my maneuvering, but it seemed that both could keep with them nomatter what and that I controlled the fight.

italianofalco
02-28-2006, 06:54 AM
yes I agree.. Now we have again an uber A.I. among with poor and predictable evasive manoveurs (This only--the VERY FEW times-- you can point the enemy aircraft in a sufficent shooting distance too...). I'm sorry because the first impression I had with the 4.04 I congratulated with Mr. Oleg and his development Team -but now I admit this 'cause probably I was mostly exiced about the resolution of "wobbies"- but now with this A.I. I'll stop to play off line since they hopefully adjust this -evidence-A.I.-CHEATING-http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif -Falco

lowfighter
02-28-2006, 07:38 AM
One thing which always helps me with the blackout: I use as much as possible roll maneuvres in combination with turn.More rolling+less turning=less blackout.
Flying AC like P47 and FW190 has teached me that.

Another thing: if I can anticipate the AI flightpath I can optimize my own flightpath. It's one of the esential rules I read, fly towards where the enemy WILL be, not where he is now. Unfortunately I often forget about this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jatro13th
02-28-2006, 10:13 AM
The thing I hate most about he AI is it's ability to break when you opened fire, even from a position where it could not possibly have eyeballed you. Of course this can be turned against it, a faster AI can be made to turn and lose energy just by some on targetish fire.


Not only that, Ive noticed since I began playing the sim ,that these bloody $#%^$%&*$ AI will take evasive actions even if you pull the trigger when you are winchester. Just a click from your trigger, and thats enough for the AI to know that you are firing, and where you are aiming at, because if you shoot away, the AI stays as it is. If you aim around them they start doing their UFO aerobatics!!

I HATE THIS!!!!!!!

It has a good thing though... When one of the weapons is empty and the AI is far away and you cant reach it, you can fire with the empty gun (sparing your ammo) and the AI will start making turns!!