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View Full Version : Ok 4.04 AI is annoying me



Airmail109
04-04-2006, 06:14 AM
I swear 4.03 was never as bad, but the AI are just uber now, theyre pulling some insane moves which u just cant follow, and they seem to be pulling off insanely good head on/high angle shots as well now. it used to be that flying online was harder...

slo_1_2_3
04-04-2006, 10:32 AM
All the more reason to killl them huh?

SeaFireLIV
04-04-2006, 11:06 AM
Old news, pal. haven`t touched offline 4.04 since....

F6_Ace
04-04-2006, 01:01 PM
Why worry about fixing the AI when there are extra planes to add? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Temporal_Mass
04-04-2006, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Why worry about fixing the AI when there are extra planes to add? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If the AI takes the fun out of it it really doesn't matter how many new planes you add...

lowfighter
04-04-2006, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Temporal_Mass:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Why worry about fixing the AI when there are extra planes to add? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If the AI takes the fun out of it it really doesn't matter how many new planes you add... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's just black humour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ominae-
04-04-2006, 02:15 PM
I'm sure it will get fixed eventually. As someone who has not touched online play much, I'll use this as an opportunity to train http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da_Godfatha
04-04-2006, 02:18 PM
Roger that Dude! I just wish these server admins would change the FLAK from Jedi-Master to at least normal. I was on a UK-ded server and got zapped by FLAK 3 times in a row at least 5 miles from the target. Geez, the fun is really going out of this game with every patch.

Oh well, it is a dead horse anyway! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif Long live the Cause! Long live BoB! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Temporal_Mass
04-04-2006, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Ominae-:
I'm sure it will get fixed eventually. As someone who has not touched online play much, I'll use this as an opportunity to train http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif \

But that's part of it, no? I see so many of these guys saying how great it is that the AI is harder to kill now. Fine for the vets, they have already learned their planes capabilities and those of their foes. But for us noobs who want to learn, what good is an AI Zero that can outdive a P-47 as a training aid? Or AI planes that can fly all day at 110% throttle with no overheat? How does that teach me proper CEM in combat? 'Fly online' is the answer I get. But I didn't buy this sim to fly online, and it wasn't sold as WoW/WWII online only. Eventually I will go online. But I would like to learn enough that I'm not flopping around in the air like a beached narwhal. And I should at least be able to get some basics doing that against the AI.

blakduk
04-04-2006, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I swear 4.03 was never as bad, but the AI are just uber now, theyre pulling some insane moves which u just cant follow, and they seem to be pulling off insanely good head on/high angle shots as well now. it used to be that flying online was harder...

I agree that the AI is now pulling off some amazing head on/high angle shots, but i cant agree with the rest.
I've tried a number of QMB exercises alternating between different planes (i take up an A6m Vs Wildcat, then swap to me in a Wildcat Vs an A6m etc). I can still kill them, even when they're on 'ace' skill level, if i fly my plane according to its abilities. I do have to be VERY careful to never allow them to get any angles on me as their aim is deadly.
I also think they seem to fly tactics better- if i create a mission in QMB against multiple opponents i have to really keep my distance and get a quick shot then away.
The AI maneuvores dont seem to be uber at all- i can easily follow them in turns etc and zoom climbs seem accurate for the various models, unlike in the original Il2 that had planes pulling awesome hammerhead turns etc.
I cant compare with online play, but the best tactic i find with AI is patience. Stay behind their wingline, wait for the opportunities to present themselves. They are ultimately fairly predictable if you observe them for long enough.
I find the toughest challenge is getting away from a head on pass with them- once that's achieved i can pretty much guarantee they're dead.

Grey_Mouser67
04-04-2006, 06:21 PM
The really disturbing thing to me is that there is a post about the new add on and a couple of "in the know" people have been over there and I can't get a simple question answered even though it has been asked 3 times....

Is the AI in the add-on the same as we have now or has it been adjusted...hopefully improved?

Divine-Wind
04-04-2006, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by blakduk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
I swear 4.03 was never as bad, but the AI are just uber now, theyre pulling some insane moves which u just cant follow, and they seem to be pulling off insanely good head on/high angle shots as well now. it used to be that flying
online was harder...
I agree that the AI is now pulling off some amazing head on/high angle shots, but i cant agree with the rest.
I've tried a number of QMB exercises alternating between different planes (i take up an A6m Vs Wildcat, then swap to me in a Wildcat Vs an A6m etc). I can still kill them, even when they're on 'ace' skill level, if i fly my plane according to its abilities. I do have to be VERY careful to never allow them to get any angles on me as their aim is deadly.
I also think they seem to fly tactics better- if i create a mission in QMB against multiple opponents i have to really keep my distance and get a quick shot then away.
The AI maneuvores dont seem to be uber at all- i can easily follow them in turns etc and zoom climbs seem accurate for the various models, unlike in the original Il2 that had planes pulling awesome hammerhead turns etc.
I cant compare with online play, but the best tactic i find with AI is patience. Stay behind their wingline, wait for the opportunities to present themselves. They are ultimately fairly predictable if you observe them for long enough.
I find the toughest challenge is getting away from a head on pass with them- once that's achieved i can pretty much guarantee they're dead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wouldn't say they don't pull off some crazy stunts. If an I-153 can keep up, even pull away, from a climbing Bf109 Gustav, then I think something is wrong.
If the 4.04 AI bugs you too much, then you can roll back to 4.03 (AI's fine there), or if you, learn to fly online.

mortoma
04-04-2006, 07:19 PM
I have been flying this sim offline since the first day the old IL2 demo came out for download. That was in 2001, IIRC. Consequently, nobody can tell me squat about this sim's AI. And I do know that every time a new patch comes out, people go on the forums and talk about the AI changing radically. But I seldom notice the AI being much different from one patch to the next and this time is no exception. I do feel the AI is slightly better if anything. They seem to use their planes advantages better and have a few more tricks up their sleeves now.

I do think they can pull off some good shots now, both head on and wierd angles, so I agree with people who are saying this.

Where I differ is I don't think that's a bad thing like they do. I think it's great. Why??? Because AI should be able to simulate the talent of a seasoned fighter pilots, if it's veteran or ace level AI!!! For one thing, they are pulling off shots like I pull off all the time, they should be able to do this. If I can do it then so should a computer controlled pilot that is veteran or ace level. I mean why shouldn't they be good shots?? In real life a pilot who had flown quite a few sorties and was a veteran or ace should both be able to pull of good manuevers AND make decent shots. What is wrong with AI being good marksman??

As far as the "amazing manuevers", they have always had some advantages, this did NOT change or improve with this patch so I wish people would quite mentioning it. Many things mentioned already in this thread are nothing new. Such as the AI being able to dive and not break up at the speed you would if you were flying the same plane. This was true even in the old IL2 demo
for God's sake!! Also the AI not overheating goes all the way to, you guessed it, the FRIKKEN
demo!! No blackouts for AI goes all the way back to guess when??? Yup, the old IL2 demo!! I'm not saying I like it or agree with it, just saying that half the stuff in this thread I'm seeing already is nothing new.

One person apparently is suggesting that the AI should be dumbed down again for noobs. But this is no answer and is not fair to us veteran simmers. They should just play on easier settings. But if they don't and stick with it, they will improve after some time. Fighting againt tough AI is the way to get better, not playing with baby level AI. Why should they change it back so people like me would have to play against AI that is too easy?? The AI is really still too easy for me even now. People who are new to the sim should just be patient, they'll get better, faster if they fight against half way decent AI. If you wanted to learn to play great Tennis, would you want to learn by playing with someone who sucked, or learn by playing with someone who'd challenge you?? Case dimissed.

BfHeFwMe
04-04-2006, 09:20 PM
Err, seasoned fighter pilots jumped fighters from the rear, or used manouver to get there. It's the rookies who went for the head on's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Nimits
04-04-2006, 09:29 PM
Err, seasoned fighter pilots jumped fighters from the rear, or used manouver to get there. It's the rookies who went for the head on's.

USN/USMC and IJN fighter pilots often went for headon runs (just alot more USN fighter pilots lived to tell about it). USN fighter pilots were trained basically to take snap shots from just about any angle on an enemy in range, and were generally pretty accurate. It was the newly trained pilots that more often just manuvered for stern shots.

knightflyte
04-05-2006, 12:04 AM
I myself have rolled back to 4.03. I also play with average to veteran AI (more often than not in QMB it's average). If it's a downloaded mission or a campaign I'll play the creators AI.

Playing with average AI in each sucessive patch I do notice a difference. I agree with you Mortima, on the things you've listed. They have been problems that have existed since the begining, but to me they feel very exagerated with this latest patch.

I am over all VERY happy with IL2/PF. I DO appreciate what we have, and am thankful for the continued support....so tho I wish the AI was more realistic, I'll live with what we have. Remember this gme was originally a tank buster/ defence flight sim. These new planes still follow the basic game engine that IL2 was developed for. We're expecting planesets that are totally different than the original creation to behave exactly as we'd expect them to in real life. I know Oleg and crew have worked on FM and AI, but he's still got to work in the IL2 game engine. What we hope for might not be capable in this old engine.

I hope with BoB that Oleg will find a better way to incorporate a more realistic AI. There's no reason why I should loose an E advantage to a slower and lower plane when I obviously have every advantage over my enemy. That's happening more often than not now, and it IS frustrating.

Again I love the sim. I'll be very happy if Oleg fixes it, but I'm not really going to shed a tear if he doesn't. 4.3 is pretty good for me.

F19_Ob
04-05-2006, 03:26 AM
Ai is probably the most difficult aspect of the sim since what really is done is faking intelligence and a lot of trade-offs has to be done.

However one simple option to the ai could be that one set shooting skill separately.
One example could be:
An ace AI flyer but an average shooter.
This would solve atleast some issues with the ai I think.


Well to be positive we can atleast set a more difficult level now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Monson74
04-05-2006, 03:50 AM
The AI gunnery is a little weird yes - they can make those incredible deflection shots but they can't hit a thing form dead six http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
The no overheat, no compression, no blackout & no E-loss is also a little off IMO, however, I do like that they go fast now - remember the eternal low-speed, low-level barrel-rolling of the old IL2-days?

WOLFMondo
04-05-2006, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Old news, pal. haven`t touched offline 4.04 since....

I've played more offline with this patch than any other. Tempest, Mosquito dgen campaigns as well as a few user made campaigns. I find the AI's ability to either be a crack shot and PK all the time or its ability to completely miss pretty annoying although the fact that AI planes have no structural limits or blacksouts is most frustrating.

Airmail109
04-05-2006, 04:38 AM
Ive been playing this sim for 4 years now.....and I havnt seen naything like it.....was trying out a Corsair campaing last night and came across 3 Raidens which manuvered like they were KI43s.......pulling some insane stuff....

thefruitbat
04-05-2006, 05:43 AM
when people say the ai is annoying me, would they care to clarify which ai?

To me, the 4 levels of ai, show vastly different charactaristics, For example lets talk about headons. Rookie/normal if you shoot from outside there shooting range they will decline the headon. Veteran you are taking a chance, Ace you will get hit.

To be fair if you go for a head on you deserve to get hit. If you lead turn the ace ai you will quickly be behind him controlling the inital merge, and he wont of had a chance to get a shot on you, so why go head on and give the other plane a chance to shoot u down?, to me thats pilot error.

As for following the ai in manauvers, i have little/no trouble following the ace ai in combat manauvers 1 on 1, sure you get close to black out, but to follow a plane in front of you dosent mean you have to have it in your gun sights all the time, Lag pursuit anyone?? If the fight starts at say 2000m it is often not untill i have forced the ai to loose its energy that i will shoot it down, normally low down, where it has few options left. i try to force the enemy to be where i want it to be. surely common sense.

When patch 4.04 came out i spent a day flying 1943 planes against each other, crimea 1000m disadvantage against 1 ace ai. i used:

190a5 1.65ata
la5f
hellcat
zero a6m5
f4u1a
spit IX
109 g2 (i prefer g2 to g6/g6 late, who need the extra amour if you dont get hit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
p51c.

Out of these i found the 51 the easiest to use, and the hardest to shoot down because of its speed. it was the first time i remember being boom and zoomed relentlessly by the ai, and was difficult to shoot the enemy down, althogh not difficult to avoid getting shot down myself, some of these fights went on for a long time, and were like games of chess, waiting for the error, either mine or the ai's. A coulpe of the fight i bugged out, since i had so much altitude by this time that i could safely get away.
Now why is this unrelistic? If the enemy is flying a faster plane than you which is suited to BnZ, and you have selected an ace, yes repeat an ACE to fight agaisnt, why should you expect it to slow down, and turn right in front of you, or decide to suddenly give up its altitude, just to satisfy you that you are great?

I think one of the main problems that is upsetting people is actually a combernation of the new ai's ability to BnZ, coupled with the EXISTING problem that they dont overheat. This makes it very hard agaisnt evenly matched planes, and one cant rely on speed alone to help you win the fight.

As to the ai pulling of impossible snapshots etc... I haven't seen them pull off anything that a human hasnt done to me online, whether it was luck or skill.

So far i have really been talking only about 1 on 1, of course fights dont really happen like this. Now, 1v4. If i am fighting agaisnt normal, no problem. Veteran is a real challenge. and ace is really hard even with an advantage like a 109e4 v hurri38. I have done it, but i have also been shot down laot trying to do it as well. And so it should be. Online I will turn and run if i see a 2 v 1 dissadvantage agaisnt me, or less i hold a signifcant energy advantage, because it is so hard to do, because of keeping your SA. Why should it be any different offline fighting what are supposed to be aces??? Before this patch, i found fighting 4 ace ai in a historrical match up doable, as long as i didnt do anyting stupid, and that always struck me as being unrealistic/to easy, because they didnt climb and try to gain an advantage, or use there speed to there advantage. Now they do, people are complaing??

I am well aware that the ai does 'cheat', but i feel that this is only to make it competative for us. Ai routines at the moment are just not simply good enough to be able to fight us on a level playing field. Until computers develop futher i think this is as good a comprimise as is possible.

All in all, i like the ai as it is now, sure it could be improved, but what couldnt? If u are struggling agaisnt the ai, turn there level down, problem solved.

just my thoughts anyway.

fruitbat

lowfighter
04-05-2006, 06:19 AM
If you compare AI craziness with online craziness, well then I agree: the AI is OK.
Now if you want the AI to simulate real life WWII way of combat flying, based on whatever real combat footage and even movies (which would tend to exagerate) I saw, the AI is doing maneuvres that probably most real pilots wouldn't do even in their most heroic dreams http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
If I want AI tougher? Yes! Make them cleverer!
Make them understand the strategic situation of the fight. Make different flights better coordinate.
Etc.
I know it's the toughest task making AI behaving inteligent...

thefruitbat
04-05-2006, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
If you compare AI craziness with online craziness, well then I agree: the AI is OK.
Now if you want the AI to simulate real life WWII way of combat flying, based on whatever real combat footage and even movies (which would tend to exagerate) I saw, the AI is doing maneuvres that probably most real pilots wouldn't do even in their most heroic dreams http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
If I want AI tougher? Yes! Make them cleverer!
Make them understand the strategic situation of the fight. Make different flights better coordinate.
Etc.
I know it's the toughest task making AI behaving inteligent...

I think your spot on here, but remember its not just the ai making crazy moves that real pilots wouldnt be able to do, so do we http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

until someone can think of a good way of moddelling fatigue, and the physical effects of throwing your plane around pulling high g etc, WE, as well as the ai, will continue to throw are planes all over the place is this 'unhistoric' manner.

I read a good thread in orr about the possibility of 2 hands v 1 hand stick control, giving better/less abitity to pull high g, which sounded interesting. But the problems of how to model the feeling of your stomach rising out through your mouth as you pull x g's is alwasys going to be a fudge of some kind, because whatever the work around, we are actually still just sat in front of our screens in the comfort of our homes.

until we are forced to fly in an historical manner, the ai wont be able to either, because there would be no contest, What i mean is, if we force the ai to suffer from all of these things, but we dont, kind of makes it just as unrealistic??

fruitbat

lowfighter
04-05-2006, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
If you compare AI craziness with online craziness, well then I agree: the AI is OK.
Now if you want the AI to simulate real life WWII way of combat flying, based on whatever real combat footage and even movies (which would tend to exagerate) I saw, the AI is doing maneuvres that probably most real pilots wouldn't do even in their most heroic dreams http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
If I want AI tougher? Yes! Make them cleverer!
Make them understand the strategic situation of the fight. Make different flights better coordinate.
Etc.
I know it's the toughest task making AI behaving inteligent...

I think your spot on here, but remember its not just the ai making crazy moves that real pilots wouldnt be able to do, so do we http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

until someone can think of a good way of moddelling fatigue, and the physical effects of throwing your plane around pulling high g etc, WE, as well as the ai, will continue to throw are planes all over the place is this 'unhistoric' manner.

I read a good thread in orr about the possibility of 2 hands v 1 hand stick control, giving better/less abitity to pull high g, which sounded interesting. But the problems of how to model the feeling of your stomach rising out through your mouth as you pull x g's is alwasys going to be a fudge of some kind, because whatever the work around, we are actually still just sat in front of our screens in the comfort of our homes.

until we are forced to fly in an historical manner, the ai wont be able to either, because there would be no contest, What i mean is, if we force the ai to suffer from all of these things, but we dont, kind of makes it just as unrealistic??

fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're spot on too, glad you touch it! I thought quite a lot about this paradox. Oleg has to find a compromise between :
fancy AI flying=more challenging for the virtual pilot
realistic AI flying=more boring and easier to cheat



At the moment I feel the balance is quite off in favor of the first.

thefruitbat
04-05-2006, 07:45 AM
yeah, it's definatley a paradox. Ai flying routines will always have to be balanced by
what the human player can acheive in there plane. It is much more fundemental problem than just 'the ai is **** etc.
I think that possibly the way to go, is to limit our flying to historical levels first, then write the ai routines to give 'balance'

this is what i am hopeing for in BoB. Of course if we are limited to historical flying, can u imagine the whines... my bloody pilot only pulled two heavy high speed turns, now he cant pull anymore near the limit, bloody girls blouse... why doesnt he go to the gym...

RegRag1977
04-05-2006, 09:24 AM
What i noticed with new AI (between other things people here already discussed) is the ridiculous way you can shoot them down.

As a matter of fact, for the fist time in the sim story SPEED KILLS. (but this won't matter for pilots riding turners)

You try to e fight versus a comparable or weaker aircraft: you cannot win even when you do everything right and the enemy is doing wrong "speed bleeder manoeuvers": enemy never loses energy, and is always in the optimal conditions...
The enemy never loses energy to the point that in the sim using e Tactics means death. At a moment you will at least be obliged to turn hard to avoid imposssible UFO manoeuvrers (PS i have never seen such ufo manoeuvers online, the AI is not something like combat online, where energy and gravity laws are the same for all...I know that because i'm a good pilot online)

The best thing to do, to win the fight is to slow down!!!!!

I slow down with my FW190A, AI enemy overshoots me like a noob blind pilot, then barrels roll around me providing me with cool snapshots possibility.

Its true that the new AI is nothing like real. But maybe pilots of Spitfire or Yaks (or good turners won't find new AI Strange, because with them, i too find the new AI challenging, when i can put my skin away from the deadly angles and follow, moment after moment each and every enemy's manoeuver...

Remember i'm not saying new AI is impossible to shoot down: it's the way, the tactics you are obliged to use to defeat them that make people angry about it. Everyone can shoot an AI ACE, not a miracle, so please don't call me "Ungrateful noob"; thank you guys.

Sorry for the poor english...