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View Full Version : Taxiing with He 111H.



jeroen_R90S
07-14-2005, 01:27 PM
Ok, last weekend me and a collegue I got into Il-2 were using 69GvIAP (thanks for letting us practise uninterrupted, 69th guys!) server to practice some torpedo runs and get used to the new FM.

Wow, taxiing that thing is really tough now, going straight it is not that bad, but when making a corner with either brakes or differential thrust, it just keeps spinning and spinning around it's axis, even when *really* careful.

I think from what I remember both engines rotated the same way, so there should be torque and the plane will taxi and fly straight if you either throttle up the left engine with about 10% or the right one down with the same amount and trim it properly.

It's just the waving and spinning that confuses me, does anyone have sources or info on the characteristics of the He 111? I fly it quite often and will eventually get used to it, but I was just wondering if it was really this bad on the real thing.

Haven't tried G4M1 yet, don't know whether it's engines counter rotate or that both turn the same way.

If the effects are overdone I'll record a track and mail that to 1C, but I just wanted to make sure my feeling is ok before bothering as I'm not very knowledgable on the 111.

Jeroen

EDIT: changed title to make it not sound whiney... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Slechtvalk
07-14-2005, 01:34 PM
Oh no again a whiner!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I am not taking the bait again. Fishing rods must be very cheap these days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Slechtvalk
07-14-2005, 01:39 PM
Seriously; I think you are right but you didn't flown a Heinkel did you?

Stackhouse25th
07-14-2005, 01:41 PM
If you know anything about airplanes and aviation. Then you would know that you can use differential thrust and differential braking, and rudder input along with tailwheel locking mechanism to produce ample turn radius at slow speeds during taxiing. This game does not model differential braking, but it does model differential thrust.

If you know any HE111 pilots be sure to ask them if the games he111 turn raidus is realistic...But they'll probably tell you they used a combination of diff thrust/braking.

i hope they model differential braking in BoB.

Atomic_Marten
07-14-2005, 01:44 PM
No it probably is not.

My suggestion: position plane in the direction of take off, then stop it completely and lock the tail wheel *then* firewall the throttle. Also make sure both engines are running.

jeroen_R90S
07-14-2005, 02:13 PM
Ok, maybe I wasn't clear enough so I'm using a more visual desctription since I'm not an aeronautical engineer either! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am sitting on the taxiway. I start both engines and both are idle. I select both engines, and slowly move forward. Both engines are running the same RPM ~20% throttle.

When approaching a corner I use differential braking (it is modeled!) to corner and release the brakes when halfway the corner.

After I release the brakes the plane keeps spinning around it's axis when I release them.
If I keep the throttle on ~20% for both engines it'll do that forever, until I slam the throttle immediately to 110% and after a few more spins it will more or less straighten itself.

I don't think it's torque or so, as it happens also when going left against the engine rotation.

It feels as if the rear fuselage is made of paper and the main wheels have no drag at all. The same occurs when using differential thrust and shutting down the throttle of the engine being used to 'pull' the plane through the curve.

I used 100% fuel and 2x torpedo, shouldn't that be enough weight to stop quickly on grass then taxiing slowly?

That's my question, would 20-30% throttle, combined with the wheels'drag on a grass strip normally be sufficient to more-or-less straighten it out by itself or at least make it swerve the other direction because of torque? Even counter-braking in the opposite direction does not seem to do much.

On the 262 steering with thrust was forbidden IRL, only wheel brakes. If that thing didn't straighten out more or less by itself, how did they taxi then, the nose wheel not being steerable?

Not whining, just asking.

Jeroen

fordfan25
07-14-2005, 02:43 PM
Was taxiing with He 111H really that tough?

yes. i always hated driveing that thing. made for a lousy taxi. course we called them Cabs.

vocatx
07-14-2005, 03:32 PM
I fly He-111 and the Betty fairly regularly. When 4.01 came out they apparently tried to model the inertia in a more realistic manner. In other words, if you are taxiing around a corner in a real aircraft, the tail will gain momentum and the aircraft will not magically go straight if you suddenly let off the brakes and go to nuetral rudder. A real aircraft will want to continue to swing. (Remember Isaac Newton?)

That being said, I do believe they over compensated a bit. I've never taxied a real 111 or Betty, so I can't be sure. The first few times I tried to taxi either one of these aircaft after 4.01 came out, I had a lot of trouble too. It's just like anything else; the more you practice at it, the better you will get.

I love the new FM, but there will probably be some tweaks to it in the next patch. This may be something that will be addressed. Of course, then there may be people saying they have trouble because the tail doesn't come around as well as it used to.

JG7_Rall
07-14-2005, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by vocatx:
I fly He-111 and the Betty fairly regularly. When 4.01 came out they apparently tried to model the inertia in a more realistic manner. In other words, if you are taxiing around a corner in a real aircraft, the tail will gain momentum and the aircraft will not magically go straight if you suddenly let off the brakes and go to nuetral rudder. A real aircraft will want to continue to swing. (Remember Isaac Newton?)

That being said, I do believe they over compensated a bit. I've never taxied a real 111 or Betty, so I can't be sure. The first few times I tried to taxi either one of these aircaft after 4.01 came out, I had a lot of trouble too. It's just like anything else; the more you practice at it, the better you will get.

I love the new FM, but there will probably be some tweaks to it in the next patch. This may be something that will be addressed. Of course, then there may be people saying they have trouble because the tail doesn't come around as well as it used to.


Agreed. However, while still holding down the brakes, once you release the rudder in game (so both brakes are acting fully now) it should stop swinging. Like you said, it's a bit overdone. I think it's just one of those 4.01 FM oddities that will hopefully be straitened out (pun intended) soon.

LStarosta
07-14-2005, 03:55 PM
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

Steve Prefontaine is the best.

Thank you for your time.

FritzGryphon
07-14-2005, 08:47 PM
I haven't tried this yet, but maybe a workaround solution would be to intermitantly use 'lock tailwheel' to stop the plane from doing donuts.

ColoradoBBQ
07-14-2005, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
I used 100% fuel and 2x torpedo, shouldn't that be enough weight to stop quickly on grass then taxiing slowly?

For a plane that heavy, tt takes a lot of differential braking and thrust to turn that plane but it will take as much braking and thrust to stop the plane from turning.

For an easier time turning, carefully throttle up slowly until the plane starts turning and counter with opposite thrust before you reach your desired direction.

han freak solo
07-14-2005, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Steve Prefontaine is the best.


At playing chess! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

flakwagen
07-15-2005, 01:11 AM
When I taxi I try to use a very light touch. I keep the throttle at 15% or 20%. I hold down the brake key and the left or right full rudder key. Then quickly gun the engine and throttle it back down to 15% or below. This usually prevents my aircraft from turning too far. I might have to compensate by turning the rudder in the opposite direction. Only let go of the brake key after the aircraft starts rolling streight forward.

One aircraft that does seem truly screwed up by 4.01m is the CR42. Taxiing this biplane is almost impossible. I'm skeptical of the idea that it was this hard to taxi a CR42 in real life, unless it was dragged into place by ground crew. It almost isn't worth the effort to fly it now.

Flak

Tooz_69GIAP
07-15-2005, 01:26 AM
Hi Jeroen,

I fly the bombers a lot (including the TB-3 - now that is a challenge to taxi!).

It has gotten more difficult to taxi since 4.01m in these aircraft, and it is to do with this momentum, and increased torque.

Basically, my finger rarely leaves the brake button while taxiing left or right. And I am constantly switching engines, and so forth.

Generally speaking though, if you wanna go left, idle your left engine, and throttle up very slowly your right engine, with full left rudder, until you start to swing in the direction you want to go. Use the brakes depending on if you are trying to taxi away from the hardstand, or simply just want to turn in a certain direction.

Now, the trick is to make sure you do not start to turn too quickly, otherwise you will pick up momentum, and even when you release rudder (or push it in the opposite direction), and idle the engine, you will continue to swing. If you do begin to swing too fast, idle the engine that bit sooner, so there is far less force pushing you to one side. It just takes some practice.

But once you are in position to take off, idle both engines, make sure you have selected "all" engines, lock your tailwheel <- this is importat - and then slowly increase throttle to about 90-95% making adjustments on your rudder to keep you straight on the runway. You don't really need 110% to take off in any aircraft I've found (unless you're going off a carrier), and it isn't necessarily good to do so as the torque can be tricky in some aircraft, so be careful with your throttle.

In the He-111, depending on how heavy you are (fuel, bombs), safe take off speed for me is generally around 160kph with take-off flaps.

Slechtvalk
07-15-2005, 01:52 AM
OK but the tb3 is now a joke and something really really really wrong with it since I can make a looping right after take off.

So probaly this heinkel shouldn't behave as it's behaving now aswell.
What about b-25 or A-20, notice anything similar with those compared with the heinkel while taxiing?

jeroen_R90S
07-15-2005, 02:12 AM
Thanks for the replies and advice everyone. I haven't flown the 111 much since 4.01m but in the time that I have I've gotten used to it a little ~just practice some more and I'll do fine.

Indeed I meant the momentum-effect, but English is not my native language so I could not find the right words, hence my little bedtime story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What I feel is that the effect might indeed be a little overdone. When I'm driving my camper van (3,5 tonnes) on a grass field and let it roll out freely, it stops rather quickly because the grass rolls much heavier then say, concrete. However, I don't think Oleg modeled the difference between grass and concrete airbases so I assume it's just the concrete that we have now.

In which case it still *feels* a little overdone, but I've never been near a real Heinkel so I can't tell if it is OK or not. I'll adapt to it, no problem, I like the Heinkel too much to give up flying her! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jeroen

PS1 I'm currently @ work and leaving for Malaysia this evening, could ask the pilot of KLM 747 for a momentum demonstration? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS2 I haven't tried the A-20 and B-25 yet. I suspect they will be easier because of steerable nose gear.

WWSensei
07-15-2005, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
This game does not model differential braking, but it does model differential thrust.

If you know any HE111 pilots be sure to ask them if the games he111 turn raidus is realistic...But they'll probably tell you they used a combination of diff thrust/braking.

i hope they model differential braking in BoB.

The game most certainly does model differential braking. It just doesn't model as American aircraft manufacturers did it. To apply right brake you apply brake and full right rudder. For left brake you apply brake and full left rudder. To brake both wheel you just apply brake. And by full rudder I mean full rudder and not just partial.

This is explained in the manual and is how Russian aircraft work (as well as some European mades ones though I can't list which ones). It's also been modelled that way since the original IL2.

Siwarrior
07-15-2005, 07:04 AM
I find the he111s hard to taxi but I always do something wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
07-15-2005, 10:02 AM
The B-25, A-20 and G4M1 all behave in the same way when taxiing - you need to be smooth and careful with the throttle, and normally need to differential thrust to pull your aircraft in one direction, or the other.

The TB-3, that's a difficult one to move around as the engines don't give too much thrust in the lower %s on the ground, but once you get enough revs up to move the thing, it's very difficult to get it to stop where you want (generally spins round way too much). Again it's a practice thing.

I don't know if the effect is overmodelled, but to be honest, it's not such a travesty that I will stop playing. However, the behaviour of the AI when flying multi engined bombers is a problem, a big problem. I compiled a bug report with tracks, and so on, a couple of weeks ago and sent it in to 1C. I haven't heard back from them, but I understand others have sent emails, so I suspect they know there is a problem, and are simply working on how to sort it out. I have hopes for 4.02.