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View Full Version : In-game difference between Dora 1944 and 1945 and between Kurfurst and Kurfurst C3?



mandrill7
11-05-2006, 08:49 AM
Can anyone explain the difference in the 2 above sub-types?

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MEGILE
11-05-2006, 09:25 AM
I think its the fuels

iirc, the Dora 44 uses C3, whereas the Dora 45 uses a lower grade, so instead uses MW50 boost.

Opposite for the kurfies tho, the high quality C3 fuel allows the engine to be boosted to a higher ATA, in this case 1.98<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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mandrill7
11-05-2006, 03:35 PM
Thanks. So the C3 is a specific-purpose adaptation of the Kurfurst?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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3.JG51_BigBear
11-05-2006, 04:03 PM
C3 fuel had very high octain content. Like a car, you need to specailly tune an engine to get the benefit of high octain fuels. Burning racing fuel in your sedan isn't going to do anything without retuning the engine.

C3 fuel required engines to be tuned for a higher boost pressure (ATA) to get the benefit from the higher octain content. The standard K4 is rated for 1.8 ATA and the C3 model is rated for 1.98 ATA. The high octain fuel combined with the increased boost pressure allowed for greater power, on average, than the lower boost pressure and MW50 boosting.

The contraversy with the C3 K-4 is that it appears that much, if not all, C3 fuel was reserved for Focke Wulf units and its also not 100% clear whether the C3 K-4 actually reached the units that the Luftwaffe cleared for the use of the fighter.

To answer your question, the K-4 was not a special purpose fighter, it was just tuned for greater performance.

Kurfurst__
11-05-2006, 06:23 PM
The C3 version 109K is an incorrect in-sim designation for the 'Bf 109K-4' that would run at 1.98ata boost for 2000 PS, introduced in March 1945 for 4 Bf 109 fighter Wings operating on the Western front.

As for 'C-3', or synthetic, nominally 96 octane avgas it was out there for a long long time, the fuel being there already in 1940 (an improved for of it, roughly equivalent of the allied 150 grade fuel, was introduced in the 2nd half of 1942). C-3 fuel was not rare either, F-T archieves estimates 2/3s of the latter war years avgas production was C-3.

As for 109s and C-3. The first 109E was running at 87 octane B-4, then C-3 was introduced for the 109E-/N and 109F-2, then with the DB 601E and 605A engines they reverted to 87 octane again. Early FW 190As were relying on 87 octane B-4 and most on C-3.

However, when MW 50 was introduced, all 109s were using C-3 fuel in combination of MW 50 for extra output in 1944. It was not until the end of the year the engines (DB 605AM and ASM) were cleared for operation with either B-4 or C-3 plus MW, resulting the same power. As for the G-10/K-4's DB 605D goes, it was designed from the start to operate on either fuel, though C-3 yielded more boost and power. Initially there seems to be some spark plug quality control problems (ca Jan 1945), so the already cleared 1.98ata rating was withdrawn until further tests, the engines, as they would give the same power at either B-4 or C-3 at the 1.8ata rating were reconverted to the B-4 version (pretty obvious choice). On 19th March OKL issued an order to reconvert the engines of 2-2 Gruppen from JG 27 and JG 53 on the West to C-3 use and 1.98ata boost; obviously the rating was re-cleared. There are photographs of JG 53's Bf 109K with the 'C3' fuel triangle on them. There's also material evidence of modifications actually being done. Furthermore, we have the immidatily available fuel stocks on airfields for Luftwaffenkommando West, where these Gruppes were stationed, and they show ca 50-50% B4/C3 availability in April 1945. Most of the fighters with the LWKdo West were 109s, btw. The ratio of B4/C3 available is entirely similiar for the Italian units in N-Italy in April 1945 as well.
Moreover German docs from 14 March 1945 note that 'since C-3 is available in unreduced quality for use' ('Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht') etc. In short, there's no sign that there was ever a specific shortage of C-3. Fuel situation on the whole was problematic of course, but it was equally bad for C3 and B4. The LW at that point was living up the huge stores of fuel it gathered during late 1943.

It isn't as clear as 190s having priority over 109s for C-3 - sadly this version was a bit fabricated by certain site not in full love with factuality and the 109 in general. Of course, for the BMW 801 powered 190s it was a must to have, but they were by March 1945 giving way to the Doras, which had Jumo 213 and were relying on B4 fuel entirely (I don't think they used C3 except occasionall, LW papers and DB memos show this). The B4/C3 distrubution was rather between Eastern and Western front, with the East having B4 as a primary fuel as noted in DB memos.

It's wrong to think of C-3 as it was something specially related to the 109K. C-3 was one of the standard LW avgas from early in the war, and it was used by a lot of engines and aircraft during the war. As far as the 109s go, we had seen that by end of 1944 most 109s, with the 605AM or ASM engines (ie. G-6s and G-14s) would do equally good on either B4 or C3 fuel, therefore it made a lot of sense to use the lower grade fuel for them. After the clearance of 1.98ata (ca. Feb-March 1945), the Bf 109G-14/ASC, Bf 109G-10, Bf 109K-4 having built with the DB 605D or DB 605ASC engines (ie. not only the 109K!) that were capable of running at 1.98ata if C3 fuel was used, they could sustain that higher boost and could produce more power if the higher grade fuel was available. All of them with those engines, not just the 109K. It's worth to mention that these planes were built and used in large qualities, and IMHO getting so hunged up that of the many-many Jagdgruppen using these planes, 4 were issued orders to use higher boost is bit curious. The equipment in those 4 Gruppen was never homogenous (both because of supply reasons and as the planes did not differ much in characteristics), and there were quite likely 1.98ata G-10s around as well in those four Gruppes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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mandrill7
11-05-2006, 10:09 PM
Thanks for the detailed responses.

I'm currently halfway through an offline campaign set in April 1945 on the Berlin map, tentatively (and melodramatically) entitled "The Bitter Last Weeks of the Reich". Most of the action is low level over the Seelow Heights, but there are also low level d/f's against USAAF fighter-bombers.

I initially started out to use the G-10, but the plane simply doesn't have the E to be satisfying against P-51's and La-7's. Thus, the search for a replacement choice - either the Dora or Kurfurst.

Would it be a reasonable choice to have a C3 powered Kurfurst in a primarily low level, anti-Soviet role at that point in the War? (I guess you could argue things were so desperate and chaotic, almost anything could take place anyway).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WOLFMondo
11-06-2006, 01:05 AM
If its 96 octane, how can it be comparable to 150 octane? Doesn't that defy logic a little bit?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

BBB_Hyperion
11-06-2006, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
If its 96 octane, how can it be comparable to 150 octane? Doesn't that defy logic a little bit?

Additives to the fuel made it comparable to 150 octane.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
11-06-2006, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
Would it be a reasonable choice to have a C3 powered Kurfurst in a primarily low level, anti-Soviet role at that point in the War? (I guess you could argue things were so desperate and chaotic, almost anything could take place anyway).

In LW fighter archives the G10 and K4 are often referred to as "Höhenjäger" (= high-altitude fighter) whereas the G14 and G6 were deemed "Jäger für niedrige Höhen" (= low-altitude fighter). I doubt the LW would have used their G10s and K4s on the Eastern Front in a large scale because most of the fighting there took place at relatively low altitudes and the G14 could do the job just as well. On the other hand there was a big need for high-performance high-alt fighters on the Western Front in the "Reichsverteidigung" - so that's where they mostly went. Anyway that doesn't mean there were no G10s or K4s at all in the East, just fewer than in the West...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ratsack
11-06-2006, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
If its 96 octane, how can it be comparable to 150 octane? Doesn't that defy logic a little bit?

The British octane measurement system that both the Brits and the U.S. used is different to the German octane measurement system. That's one source of confusion right there.

I have heard that the C3 fuel was nominally 96 octane by the German system, and that this roughly equivalent to the Allied 100/130 Avgas. Note here that 100/130 refers to the lean / rich ratings respectively.

However, the Germans reformulated their C3 fuel in mid-1942, as Kurfurst mentioned. This new formulation allowed the FW 190 A-3 and A-4 to run at 1.42 ATA consistently (some aircraft were derated prior to this: the A-4 we have in the game seems to be a neutered version of a derated A-4.).

I don't know what the Allied equivalent of the the new C3 formulation would have been, but Kurfurst isn't alone is suggesting it was roughly equivalent to the 100/150 juice (the 'purple' avgas) issued in the second half of 1944. I don't know enough about the respective measurement systems to express a firm opinion on that either way.

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Ruy Horta
11-06-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:Moreover German docs from 14 March 1945 note that 'since C-3 is available in unreduced quality for use' ('Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht') etc.

In short, there's no sign that there was ever a specific shortage of C-3. Fuel situation on the whole was problematic of course, but it was equally bad for C3 and B4. The LW at that point was living up the huge stores of fuel it gathered during late 1943.


Sorry, but I think you are mistaken in your translation of the German text. What it says is about the QUALITY of C3 not the QUANTITY. I haven't got access to the rest of the document, but based on this sentence alone your assumption is unfounded.

It is a well known fact that B4, being relatively simple to produce through synthetic means, was the prefered fuel for aircraft. Hence the tendency to go for mechanical and chemical boosting before the use of higher octane.

You'd have to show documents showing an abundance of C3 before I go against conventional wisdom - as in its "relative" rarity.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-06-2006, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kurfurst__:Moreover German docs from 14 March 1945 note that 'since C-3 is available in unreduced quality for use' ('Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht') etc.


Sorry, but I think you are mistaken in your translation of the German text. What it says is about the QUALITY of C3 not the QUANTITY. I haven't got access to the rest of the document, but based on this sentence alone your assumption is unfounded.

I don't think there's a mistake in the translation, though I'd like to see the translation of a native speaker. The sentence goes, it was also published on some sites :

"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben"

My translation would be :

'As the C3 avgas in uncompromised quality (unverminderter Qualität) is available for use, the engines 605 ASC and DC, in case they are built in this version, are not to be changed as formerly given'.

It seems to suggest C3 stocks has no quantity or quality problems. After all, if there were specific shortage of it, why wouldn't they'd use a phrase like 'though C3 quality is OK, there's little of it around'...?

Versus they actually say : it's available for use.

I think my translation is reasonably close, perhaps a native speaker can check?


It is a well known fact that B4, being relatively simple to produce through synthetic means, was the prefered fuel for aircraft. Hence the tendency to go for mechanical and chemical boosting before the use of higher octane.

Well known fact...? It sounds more like guesswork.


You'd have to show documents showing an abundance of C3 before I go against conventional wisdom - as in its "relative" rarity.

That's your own suggestion that there was 'abundance' - you are exaggrevating things to their absolutes. There was no abundance for certainly no specific shortage, at least all the things I've seen show this.

Now as for some documentation you requested :

Fischer Tropsch archieves :

(b) Composition and Specifications

There were two (2) grades of aviation gasoline produced in volume in Germany one the B-4 or blue grade and the other the C-3 or green grade. Both grades were loaded with the equivalent of 4.35 cubic centimeters tetraethyl lead per gallon. The B-4 grade was simply a fraction of the gasoline product from coal and coal tar hydrogenation. It contained normally 10 to 15 percent volume aromatics, 45 percent volume naphthenes, and the remainder paraffins. The octane number was 89 by a measurement corresponding to the C.F.R. motor method. The C-3 grade was a mixture of 10 to 15 percent volume of synthetic isoparaffins (alkylates and isooctanes) and 85 percent of an aromatized base stock produced by hydroforming types of operation on coal and coal tar hydrogenation gasolines. The C-3 grade was permitted to contain not more than 45 percent volume aromatics. This aromatic limitation sometimes required that the base stock component include some diluents other than the aromatic fraction, which could then be balanced if necessary by the inclusion of slightly more isoparaffin. (The C-3 grade corresponded roughly to the U. S. grade 130 gasoline, although the octane number of C-3 was specified to be only 95 and its lean mixture performance was somewhat poorer.)

....

The relative volumes of production of the two grades cannot be accurately given, but in the last war years the major volume, perhaps two-thirds (2/3) of this total has the C-3 grade. Every effort was being made toward the end of the war to increase isoparaffin production so that C-3 volume could be increased for fighter plane use. The isoparaffin usage in that grade had already been cut to a minimum.


Note that this says roughly 130 grade, but this was changed in late 1942 for higher rate (as noted the nominal octane difference are resulting from using different designation methods for fuel in various countries)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/C-3vs150grade.jpg

Also from the sate F-T site, highlights by Crumpp :
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/42_C3FUELRESULT.jpg

Some clues from US testing of FW 190 A from the original test paper :

a. Power plant and Associated Equipment

The airplane is powered with a BMW 801-D engine, fourteen cylinder, twin row radial engine equipped with a two speed internal supercharger. Propeller pitch and fuel mixture are automatically controlled by the throttle setting and require no attention from the pilot. 140 grade fuel was used for all tests since this grade fuel corresponds to the fuel used by the Germans; 140 grade fuel is superior to standard 100 octane (130 grade) fuel.

IIRC butch said that comparing apples to apples, ie. under same octane standard, C-3 was good as about 96/143 grade fuel by US/UK designation - and available in large quantities from end of 1942. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Now some actual fuel figures which are available.

On April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:
(this is the higher unit the 1.98ata JG 27 and 53 would belong to and being supplied from at the time)

B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters

109s being there mostly.

The other dataset is for the axis-Italian ANR's in Northern Italy - I guess they were not receiving priority over LW units. Almost all of them Bf 109Gs (and three 109Ks).

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/ANR_fuelsituation1945.jpg
Sources : The Italian Air War by d'Amico, Beamen etc.

Same thing shown, 50-50% B4/C3, basically.

This is the fuselage of a to-be restored G-6/AS. Note the fuel triangles :

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/G-6-ASinBelgium1.jpg

This is the Bf 109K of Fw. Strebel, WNr 334 210 of 11/JG 3.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/StrebelsK4_11JG3_Y4_334210.jpg

19 March 1945 equipment/fuel state of Luftflotte 6

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/C3-109.jpg


Now that's one curious stuff, found by Crumpp (thanks m8!).
It's the boost gauge of a 109K. Note it's upper boost limit was modified later...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/198ata-boostgauge.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
11-06-2006, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
I don't think there's a mistake in the translation, though I'd like to see the translation of a native speaker. The sentence goes, it was also published on some sites :

"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben"

Native speaker for the rescue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"As C3 fuel is available in uncompromised quality, the engines 605 ASC and DC, if built in this version, will be provided unchanged as usual."<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ruy Horta
11-06-2006, 10:00 AM
I'm not a native speaker, but being Dutch it is close enough and I am not unexperienced when it comes to reading German. The text doesn't say anything on the quantity, only that it is available. Quality yes.

Well I take a document on DB 603 development over Ubi forums and the internet. This document clearly discusses engine development in the terms I explained. Low vs high octane and the acceptance that at some point mechanical and chemical boosting cannot make up for higher octane fuel. Sorry, that's Daimler Benz speaking not Ruy Horta.

I'll stick to conventional wisdom when it comes to the availability of B4 over C3.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-06-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
I'm not a native speaker, but being Dutch it is close enough and I am not unexperienced when it comes to reading German. The text doesn't say anything on the quantity, only that it is available. Quality yes.

So your understanding on a document saying good quality C3 is available is that C3 is not available. Interesting interpretation.


Well I take a document on DB 603 development over Ubi forums and the internet. This document clearly discusses engine development in the terms I explained.

And which document of DB 603 development would that be specifically ?


Low vs high octane and the acceptance that at some point mechanical and chemical boosting cannot make up for higher octane fuel. Sorry, that's Daimler Benz speaking not Ruy Horta.

Obviously. Good thing that high octane fuel just as available as lower octane fuel as shown above, and frankly it's quite an achievement what DB got out of the lower grade fuels - it speaks of very good design effiency of their engines.


I'll stick to conventional wisdom when it comes to the availability of B4 over C3.

And I'll stick to similiar availability of C3 as in the case of B4 shown by DB documents, RLM documents, respected organisations as Fischer-Tropsch and reports of actual fuel storages instead of your conventional wisdom which doesn't seem to have any solid base, if you don't mind me pointing that out.

You rather sound like 'I made up my mind, C3 was in short supply, whatever the documents show or do not show and that's what I will keep repeaing'. I've seen no documents mentioning specific shortage of C3 - and we are all well aware from what sort of agenda the 'C3 shortage' is originating from. And if there's no supporting documentation of such shortage - it's must be just wishful thinking, then.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

Ruy Horta
11-06-2006, 12:11 PM
Kurfurst,

I won't enter a discussion with you.

The document I am talking about is one of thousands scanned from various archives, that's enough for me.

As for the translation, we are nitpicking, but again availability doesn't say anything about the quantity. It is available and of undiminished quality.

You have a way to turn off even those who are not biased, and I am hardly biased against the Jagdwaffe - if I were I'd better examine the thousands of $ I spent on that hobby.

Enjoy your thread.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
11-06-2006, 12:21 PM
Kurfurst: do you know of some sources for photos of spring 1944-era 109G-6/AS aircraft, esp of JG11? I am particularly looking for photos of them in the RLM76 overall high altitude scheme. Is there a website for that G-6/AS restoration? Many thanks, L

P.S. When exactly was the service introduction of the G-6/AS---around April 1944?

Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Kurfurst,

I won't enter a discussion with you.
The document I am talking about is one of thousands scanned from various archives, that's enough for me.

I won't complain about that, as I am here to learn, see new sides of the subject, and appearantly I can't learn anything from you on the subject because you just keep repeating the same old while ignoring completely what you were shown. If you could give me new info on C3 production, just the better for me. But you can not even give the reference to the DB paper you're talking about, which I may have as well so I could check, I presume that's the one speaking about DB 603 vs Jumo 213 development priorities.

Put it simply : you made a statement and when asked for your reasons, you elegantly leave without answering the question.


As for the translation, we are nitpicking, but again availability doesn't say anything about the quantity. It is available and of undiminished quality.

Than I am puzzled from what makes you think there was a C3-specific shortage. RE: Fischer Tropsch notes on production ratios.


You have a way to turn off even those who are not biased, and I am hardly biased against the Jagdwaffe - if I were I'd better examine the thousands of $ I spent on that hobby.

Enjoy your thread.

No, I am turning off those who are shown a wagonload rather convincing sources, which they then completely dismiss like it was not even there, and refer to some cloudy 'conventional wisdom' and really can't give any reason for why they are think as they think on the subject.

@Leitmotiv,

I've seen such photos, I think it's well known as IIRC it shows Specht's (?? can't remember the name correctly, ie. Knoke's unit CO) G-5/AS (same as G-6/AS but with pressurized cabin) with red legs (which points to the plane having MW50) at around
the end of March/early April. The plane was photoed as the CO was getting some medal at the time. I'll try to look up the photo and the detail, but the G-5/AS or G-6/AS clearly turned up in around March/April 1944. Production records show it was in production for some time by then. First flight tests were finalized January 1944.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

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Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

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Ratsack
11-07-2006, 02:54 AM
Hang on, hang on, there's something wrong here.

Where's the usual conga line of cheerleaders to do justice on the recidivist Kurfurst? Am I on the right forum...


Ratsack<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 03:59 AM
Yeah, wrong forum, the one for trolls is not here, Haya... I mean, Ratsack. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
You might as well leave now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

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"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Kurfurst: do you know of some sources for photos of spring 1944-era 109G-6/AS aircraft, esp of JG11? I am particularly looking for photos of them in the RLM76 overall high altitude scheme. Is there a website for that G-6/AS restoration? Many thanks, L

P.S. When exactly was the service introduction of the G-6/AS---around April 1944?

Ah, and there it is :

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/Specht_G5AS_8april1944.jpg

It's coming from Kagero no. 1030 'JG 11' by Marek Murawski. Somewhere else I saw it noted they identified the legs of the 109 as with red primer, a sign of MW50 being installed. Likely, as Knoke in his diary mentions at they got new planes 'with improved compressors and methanol injection' at around the same date.

As for the painting, it looks like the standard one to me.

Also this one of a G-14/AS, appearantly in full RLM 76 :

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/RLM76.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

csThor
11-07-2006, 10:27 AM
So your understanding on a document saying good quality C3 is available is that C3 is not available. Interesting interpretation.

Sorry, Kurfürst, but your translation is wishful thinking. The basic sentence:


"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben"

does not make any statement about the quantity of available fuel, not even the slightest. All it says is that the quality of the C3 batch has not been compromised. You cannot draw any conclusions about the available quantity of C3 - you'd need hard facts, supply reports, for that. The quoted sentence just says "Fuel C3 is still OK so issueing DB 605 ASC and 605DC is going to continue." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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leitmotiv
11-07-2006, 10:41 AM
Many thanks for the JG1 image, Kurfurst---I've been trying to find that for ages! Yes, I am familiar with the Specht G-5/AS. I have been trying to track down another JG11 G-5 or 6/AS since I realized years ago Knoke was describing one of these in his autobiography. Thanks for the service intro clarifications. Cheers, L

Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 10:53 AM
Thor, unfortunately you seem to rely on Horta's understanding of what I said, and his understanding is already suffering from reading comprehension problems.

Originally I merely said :

'Moreover German docs from 14 March 1945 note that 'since C-3 is available in unreduced quality for use' ('Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht') etc. In short, there's no sign that there was ever a specific shortage of C-3. Fuel situation on the whole was problematic of course, but it was equally bad for C3 and B4. The LW at that point was living up the huge stores of fuel it gathered during late 1943.'
I don't see what's the problem with that. There's a text saying C3 fuel available in unreduced quality. My conclusion was that this is no sign of quantity problems, after all they say it's available for use.
Disproving claims I did not make is a rather more like a strawmen arguementthan an arguement, but you probably started off from Ruy's post rather than my original one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Moreover here is the original German text, Karaya's translation, and my translation. They are the same.

Karaya's translation (native speaker)
"As C3 fuel is available in uncompromised quality, the engines 605 ASC and DC, if built in this version, will be provided unchanged as usual."

My translation was :
'As the C3 avgas in uncompromised quality is available for use, the engines 605 ASC and DC, in case they are built in this version, are not to be changed as formerly given'.

It's rather the same, so I am rather intrigued what makes it as 'your translation is wishful thinking.' of this text :

"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben"<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42333000/jpg/_42333631_puskasbudapest_ap203b.jpg
In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

csThor
11-07-2006, 11:01 AM
I am german so I guess I can understand german sentences quite fine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 11:08 AM
So what's your translation would be?

BTW Karaya is too, or maybe Schwyzerdütsch cos he has the same translation as me? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42333000/jpg/_42333631_puskasbudapest_ap203b.jpg
In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

JG53Frankyboy
11-07-2006, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
So what's your translation would be?

BTW Karaya is too, or maybe Schwyzerdütsch cos he has the same translation as me? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

the problem is YOUR interpratation:

"I don't think there's a mistake in the translation, though I'd like to see the translation of a native speaker. The sentence goes, it was also published on some sites :

"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben"

My translation would be :

'As the C3 avgas in uncompromised quality (unverminderter Qualität) is available for use, the engines 605 ASC and DC, in case they are built in this version, are not to be changed as formerly given'.

It seems to suggest C3 stocks has no quantity or quality problems. After all, if there were specific shortage of it, why wouldn't they'd use a phrase like 'though C3 quality is OK, there's little of it around'...?

Versus they actually say : it's available for use.

I think my translation is reasonably close, perhaps a native speaker can check?"

they only speak about quality, that no changes have to make about the DB605 engines that need that higher rated fuel.
but they say NOTHING about quantity !

actually, the word "falls" CAN be interpreted that these "C" engines were not the most common.
thats otherway round than yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

csThor
11-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben

My translation would be:

"As C3 fuel remains available in uncompromised quality [which is not a statement about the quantity of C3 except that quantity is not zero!] the engines of type 695 ASC and 605 DC, if they are being manufactured as these subtypes, will be issued unaltered as hitherto."

So the sentence just says that C3 supply is not zero (nada, niente, nitchevo) - it does not say "C3 supply is like B4 supply" or "C3 supply is superior to B4 supply". You cannot draw any conclusions about the actual quantity of C3 from it - it just says C3 is available (which noone doubts except the greatest Anti-german trolls).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 11:30 AM
Well, we can argue on the possible interpretations of the text - but then my interpretation of it, which was that there was no specific shortage of C3, is also based on the fuel storage and production rate reports, the actual numbers, so it's quite likely that while reading the text saying 'available' (by formal logic/Thor : >0), I also had in mind the other docs indeed showing it was readily availbe, hence even if my interpretation of the text itself in it's pure form may be incorrect by the rules of formal logic, in the full context (with the facts from others docs) it's still true in an absolute manner. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To rehearse those sources :

- Fischer-Tropsch believes that up to 2/3s of the late war German avgas production was made by C3

- Luftwaffekommando West in 22 April 1945 reports 45% of stock being made up by C3, 55% being B4

- In Northern Italy on 23 April 1945 reports 147 000 liter B4 vs. 116 000 liter C3 (again : 56% vs 44%).

Add to that these unit formations were made up from plane models that could happily run on B4 only, yet they were supplied with 50% 'luxury' fuel.

To get bacl a bit towards the subject without arguing too much a nitty detail, the real relevant point here is LWkdo West fuel status (iirc Thor was posting this a while ago), as all 4 Gruppen of JG 27 and 53 who seem to be cleared for 1.98ata on 19th March 1945 was subordinated to Luftwaffekommando West, briefly they had the neccesary high-octane around available to make us of the higher boost ratings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thus ends the sermon! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42333000/jpg/_42333631_puskasbudapest_ap203b.jpg
In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

csThor
11-07-2006, 11:31 AM
The list I posted was from bavaria in April 1945. It's a snippet, a piece of the puzzle. It would be certainly interesting to get the full picture someday, though I doubt the sources are still there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
11-07-2006, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
So what's your translation would be?

BTW Karaya is too, or maybe Schwyzerdütsch cos he has the same translation as me? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

No, I'm not Swiss but Austrian http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
actually, the word "falls" CAN be interpreted that these "C" engines were not the most common.
thats otherway round than yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think that was the case, it seems until 1.98ata was not released, many DC engines were reverting to DB standard. Makes a lot of sense since the DB and DC would provide about the same output at 1.8ata, and the DB one was less fuel sensitive (DC would only take C3, DB either B4 or C3, making it more flexible).

OTOH it's not really important, the DB/DC were as a matter of fact the same engine, with minor component differences and readily convertible into each other even in the field with a simple screwdriver, so I guess DB engines become DCs again as easily as when they were converted from DC to DB, whatever the situation allowed/demanded ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42333000/jpg/_42333631_puskasbudapest_ap203b.jpg
In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.

Kurfurst__
11-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
The list I posted was from bavaria in April 1945. It's a snippet, a piece of the puzzle. It would be certainly interesting to get the full picture someday, though I doubt the sources are still there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

AFAIK butch has more complete storage figures, but he can't post it because he made a promise to someone.

But, as far as 1.98ata goes, the LKdo West fuel status report is enough for us because as noted, all 1.98ata units were under LKdo West at the time (March-April).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42333000/jpg/_42333631_puskasbudapest_ap203b.jpg
In memoriam Puskás Ferenc,2 April 1927 - 17 November 2006.
Nyugodjon Békében - May he rest in Peace.

http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/
Kurfürst - Your Resource for Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance!

"The Me 109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be the Messer! Speedy, maneuverable (especially in the vertical) and extremely dynamic."
- Major Kozhemyako, Soviet fighter pilot of the VVS

Ignored Posters : AKA_Tagert, Wurkeri, Gibbage, LStarosta, Sergio_101.