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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:57 PM
Hi,

I really miss something in IL2's ground attack missions. I miss attacking soldiers. The target display seems really dull and artifical without any crew or service personel.

My dream scenario would be to go on a ground attack strafing mission, mowing down those rag-tag russian pesant soldiers like grass with my Bf 109. (I only fly German planes). Imagine a "human wave" attack of poorly trained Russian soldiers in progress, and what a couple of Lufwaffe aircrafts could do to them!

Is this option removed to create a more humane game or is it because the creators are Russian?

Danke,
Hannah

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:57 PM
Hi,

I really miss something in IL2's ground attack missions. I miss attacking soldiers. The target display seems really dull and artifical without any crew or service personel.

My dream scenario would be to go on a ground attack strafing mission, mowing down those rag-tag russian pesant soldiers like grass with my Bf 109. (I only fly German planes). Imagine a "human wave" attack of poorly trained Russian soldiers in progress, and what a couple of Lufwaffe aircrafts could do to them!

Is this option removed to create a more humane game or is it because the creators are Russian?

Danke,
Hannah

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:09 PM
I saw the following , but only one time. I was strafing a russian convoi with my ME 262. I was directly in a 6 o'clock position. And than, little soldier ran out of the trucks to save their lives.
Maybe it is normal and I only didn't saw them on other times but it was realy a great feeling. Soldiers as ground targets would be great /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:14 PM
Aside of a very bad taste that the Hannah presented; I doubt if there was a single soviet infantry attack repelled by aircraft. Soviet infantry tended to get pinned very easily when fired upon, thus Germans developed the tactics of firing all their guns, rifles, and MGs that opposed the attacking wave at the very last moment, in order to maximise the oppressive effect. In such a situation the use of aircraft would be very risky.

I think if the game implements destroying foot soldiers it will attract a wrong kind of people.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:16 PM
ice seen them leg it from u loads of times

unless you have certified, verified data and proof of this or have actually flown the planes that stop your whineing!

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:25 PM
Hannah_K wrote:

-
- Is this option removed to create a more humane game
- or is it because the creators are Russian?
-

The soldiers are there. As for the conspiracy thinking, I always like that. Especially when it makes no sense, as it does here. Or maybe it has never occured to you, that Soviet planes might strafe Axis troops as well?

cheers/slush

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fluke39
10-29-2003, 02:32 PM
hmmm

i wouldn't normally bother answering such a pathetic and disrespectful post, which is from either some nutter or a blatent troll. ( i suspect the latter)

but i'm going to post this anyway - not really for the benefit of the original poster but for others benefit.

the other day i found it could be good fun to attack pilots running from their planes after crash landings- as it is quite easy to imagine they are running and diving for cover from you, as opposed to just running from their aircraft.
combine a F2 view from the crashed aircraft(or F3 from yours)and it can be quite impressive to see the pilots run and take cover as you dive down and your bullets churn up the ground all around them, and then your aircraft roars past and away into the distance.

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:38 PM
fluke39 wrote:
-
- the other day i found it could be good fun to
- attack pilots running from their planes after crash
- landings- as it is quite easy to imagine they are
- running and diving for cover from you, as opposed to
- just running from their aircraft.

Hmmm, I really hope you did not find it was fun...
Somehow I cannot imagine a mentally healthy person finding fun in shooting defenceless people, and a grounded pilot is defenceless... I have never been in such a situation, but I hope even if I was ordered to shoot a running pilot I would regard it a duty rather than a pleasure.

Zayets
10-29-2003, 02:45 PM
You're sick but you don't know it!

Zayets out

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:52 PM
Well, Fluke, I find your answer somewhat inconsistent. I was referring to attacking soldiers which are legitimate combatants. This is allowed by the Geneva convention.

What you refer to is attacking a non-combatant, which a pilot in a grounded airplane is. This is, needless to say, a war crime as well as morally questionable. I resent being called a nutter for this reason.

Slush69: good point, you are right. I guess my mindset was from a Lufwaffe perspective. Besides the Soviet army seemed to use human wave tactics as opposed to the German army. Hence the high casulties rate. But I digress.

Hannah

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:10 PM
This is repulsive. There is no merit in this posting. Hopefully it is something that won't be seen or tolerated to offen on this messsage board in the future.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:12 PM
YOu guys are thinking the wrong way on this, and why its not in FB. Its not because it didnt happen (IT DID) its because this would most certainly add a Higher rating to the game.

Which is one of the reason they took the gore out.

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:34 PM
IIRC it was because of the ratings, that and framerates.

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:37 PM
Here was at least two cases, where fighters and bombers were used to stop Soviet assault.
First happened 5th March 1940, location Bay of Vyborg, Finland during Winter War.
Soviets did send their infrantry (here was men for 3 complete divisions) with weak support of tanks acrossing frozen bay.
Finnish HQ called all possible planes of FAF (over 100) to repel assault. At the end of day Soviets were succeeded to create permanent bridgehead to western side of bay, but not without heavy casualties. Nobody knows how many men they lost, but several thousands shouldn‚¬īt be too much.

Photo from attacking Finnish plane:
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400305ViipurinlahtiHavittajatHyokkaavat.jpg



Second case happened in area of Tali-Ihantala summer 1944, when German and Finnish air squadrons virtually wiped out of from this world maybe over 200 Soviet tanks and thousands men with their bombs.


PS. These both events would be good for scenario, but because here is no infrantry in this game, it is not possible to create historically, but then should use vehicles and tanks only instead.


----------------------------------------
"Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril -
Finland shows what free men can do."
Winston Churchill 1940
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Message Edited on 10/29/0304:39PM by Kunkkula

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:38 PM
Man that pic is creepy!

Nic

fluke39
10-29-2003, 03:39 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
-
- fluke39 wrote:
--
-- the other day i found it could be good fun to
-- attack pilots running from their planes after crash
-- landings- as it is quite easy to imagine they are
-- running and diving for cover from you, as opposed to
-- just running from their aircraft.
-
- Hmmm, I really hope you did not find it was fun...
- Somehow I cannot imagine a mentally healthy person
- finding fun in shooting defenceless people, and a
- grounded pilot is defenceless... I have never been
- in such a situation, but I hope even if I was
- ordered to shoot a running pilot I would regard it a
- duty rather than a pleasure.

And Hannah K wrote something along similar lines


1) Ok sorry maybe i was a bit harsh with my original statement about your post Hannah- upon re-reading of your post it was not quite as bad as i originally thought - but i still think it is in bad taste, and could have been worded alot more respectfully.


2) please note, nowhere in my post did i mention killing the pilots - i simply stated it was fun to strafe them while they ran for cover - now this was NOT meant in the way:

"it's fun to tear apart defenceless men running along the ground with 20mm exploding cannon shells"

but WAS meant in the way:

"it can look really impressive from an F3 view to see an aircraft dive down whilst the pilots apparently run for cover from the attacking airplane"

- which in my opinion does look good. if anything i try NOT to hit the pilots - as it seems to complete the effect as they dive to the floor seemingly to get out of the way of the airplane as it roars past a few feet above their heads.

i only mentioned this as yesterday i was attacking a downed aircraft just as the men were running away, and i switched to F3 view and happened to notice this "scenario" - i just thought it looked good from a cinematic point of view and also made the pilots AI look more sophisticated than it actually is.




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fluke39
10-29-2003, 03:43 PM
p,s - i just re-read my post, and admit i could have worded it a bit better

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:11 PM
oFZo wrote:
- IIRC it was because of the ratings, that and
- framerates.

Yep, these two factors would just kill this idea. The russian front seems a bit empty, but to put lots of soldiers on the ground would soak up heaps of computer power that in most player's minds would rather be used for keeping the a/c in the air.

An example of how tough this would be on your PC can be seen when you fly missions over Berlin with loads of ground units on the map. Each and every item is checked for its status, which is incredibly CPU intensive. On average PC's it's already pretty choppy. Add the necessary animations for humans and we're talking about a massive increase in the system requirements, putting the game beyond all but the most cutting edge PCs.

This reminds me of the post a while ago whining about the tracks not moving on the tanks... If it's not there, it's probably due to framerates!

Then of course there's the ratings aspect. Blood and guts, no matter how historically correct, will get a game a nasty rating.

Just imagine though...think of all the extra light AAA fire coming up from the ground! Not very effiective, but it'd suck being brought down by a single rifle bullet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


cheers,
Tony
(flying as "wombat" on HL)


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</map>


oh yeah, and I'm a Whirlwind whiner too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:29 PM
smells fishy in here. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:54 PM
I will say what I usually say in these threads,
at lest put a soldier operating the AAguns,
it look silly in the gost mode it is now,




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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:14 PM
- I will say what I usually say in these threads,
- at lest put a soldier operating the AAguns,
- it look silly in the gost mode it is now,

Completely agree that this is something to correct ... afterall, with soldiers and paratroopers in vehicles, guncrews at guns logically follows.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:00 PM
That was funny!

Folks, don't get all politically correct. Now you are worrying about what kind of customers will be attracted to FB? What, you never play UT, Q3, Return to CW, Rainbow six, etc, etc, etc???

If you really mean this, it is just plain SICK that any us enjoy simulating the death of other human beings!

Face it! we are animals that enjoy killing each other!

If you really believe what you all are saying you should stop playing FB now! If you don't, you are hypocrites!

The more real the game is the better. I totally agree that the landscape is barren. At most its just machines. I realize that we are already pushing our machines to the limit, but in the future, I expect to see normal traffic in cities, people working in the fields with tractors etc...

Wheither you attack them or not is up to you.. The game shouldn't be a straight jacket of politically correct behavior, but rather of the WAR... Were you there? Civvies never got shot? B17 tail gunners tried to kill my mom as a 10yr old school girl... Her dad was murdered by the Russians after surrendering... My dad was a Marine in Europe... Don't dare to preach unless you KNOW what you are talking about.

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Hawgdog
10-29-2003, 06:36 PM
bastids


I want to strafe livestock!
Whistling by in my P.11 you could here the cows moooo, like I can hear the sirens when strafing a base!!
YES THATS REALIZM Unless we have barn animals playing I dont see it as a problem

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:46 PM
Wait untill the US vehicles show up in-game...

I wonder how many signatures will feature an american soldier being strafed by german aircraft.



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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:55 PM
I find it ridiculous that someone who is playing a war game finds it disturbing to attack infantry units. Like a tank or airplane does not contain a human pilot.

War should be shown for the hell it is. Don't try to sanitize it, or hide the gore. This only serves to glorify war.

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 09:17 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
-
- Somehow I cannot imagine a mentally healthy person
- finding fun in shooting defenceless people, and a
- grounded pilot is defenceless...
-


Well, it seems that WW2 and all wars after were made only by insane people, since this attitudes were the common ones... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

C'mon, Hans, awake. You overestimate the quality of human being...

- Dux Corvan -



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</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 09:32 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
-
- Hmmm, I really hope you did not find it was fun...
- Somehow I cannot imagine a mentally healthy person
- finding fun in shooting defenceless people, and a
- grounded pilot is defenceless... I have never been
- in such a situation, but I hope even if I was
- ordered to shoot a running pilot I would regard it a
- duty rather than a pleasure.
-

Hi. Relax. This is a game....it's not like Fluke find pleasure in running out and shooting people. Ever play a first person shooter. <begin sarcasm>I hope you didn't enjoy yourself, because that s metally unhealthy.</end sarcasm>
Come on. It's a game....a game about war. Lighten up. Just because you take it far too seriously doesn't mean everybody else does.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 04:36 AM
Does anyone remember Jane's WWII fighters? They had numerous infantry units that ran around and could be strafed. It didn't really bother me then, but now I'm not sure if I'd feel guilty or not after reading some of the other posts/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif After all, strafing and bombing of infantry units was not uncommon during WWII. Remember the infamous Falaise pocket. Though I do draw the line at strafing a downed pilot.

From an economic standpoint I suppose it would make more sense to have a better rating for your game. I do think it would make a nice addition to the realism of the game however, but if it ends up slowing everything else down, I could just as easily live without it.

Perhaps they could at least have some deer running across the fields like in Jane's WWII. I found it rather amusing hunting a buck with a Bf 109 or P-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:43 AM
Why you said "Russian" How will you feel if someone post "Strafing German Soldiers" Let's forget it.


When I attacked some trucks then go tight turn, as I turn around, I looked at trucks, and can see one of crew run with white dot on it. I guess bullets didn't harm them, in other word, I can see crews killed from bombing attack which hitting trucks.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:54 AM
Rofl :P

Maybe someone should tell a few of you guys that this is just a game??

They aren't real men you are shooting you know??

As if Fluke or Hannah would do the same if they were real people??

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fluke39
10-30-2003, 10:08 AM
Cheers for the defence guys - and as has been said - it's only a game. ( well thats what i tell myself every time i get interrogated by the police, when someone else goes missing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

in truth - as i said in my last post - i don't generally strafe pilots and such - in fact sometimes i worry more about my mental health by the fact that i don't - as it shows i have trouble seperating FB from reality!!

but i don't see anything wrong with anyone who shoots ground troops.
i do still disagree with identifying one "Real life" group to strafe in particular.... (as in the title of this thread)

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:30 AM
Guys,

I suggest we close this thread. I got a good explanation of the reason for not having infantry as targets, i.e. CPU constraints. Thank you for that.

Some of the posters seem to confuse me with somebody that likes to machine gun down people in real life. Please don't. I'm fully aware of that it is just a video game. I have no dislike against Russians. I just prefer flying the Luftwaffe planes, which limts my target options.

Hawgdog, you have a good sense of humour! Your idea of livestock as target made me laugh so much I nearly fell off my office chair. I can imagine the scene: an aircraft flying attack rounds one after another, strafing a herd of innocent computer animated bellowing cows! I hope no bleeding hart moralist starts to flame you for this display of humour. At least you did not write "Russian livestock"!

Respect,
Hannah

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:51 AM
i remember on IL2 i strafed a german column with an I-16 the one with the 4 7.26mm machine guns to see if i could actually kill a car with one to test realism and for the first time i noticed twenty odd soldiers fly out of the cars, impressed i decided to shoot them instead and i think blood came out but it look like they had dropped a can of paint. I mean i was wowed by this i don't see why anyone should get angry when someone says they enjoy doing this as it is quite rewarding hitting such a small target. I mean if you get angry then how can you argue that you can tear them apart inside a perspex box and let them burn to death on the way down but not strafe them on the ground where you will probably get munched by flak anyway, and i think i have seen the soldiers shoot back im not sure on that. If you are going to flame about how we should not shoot defencless ground troops then you may as well go and flame in FPS forums like in the BF1942 forums where you are encouraged to strafe ground troops.

Wilhelm

fluke39
10-30-2003, 12:23 PM
Wilhelm_Hartas wrote:
- i remember on IL2 i strafed a german column with an
- I-16 the one with the 4 7.26mm machine guns to see
- if i could actually kill a car with one to test
- realism and for the first time i noticed twenty odd
- soldiers fly out of the cars, impressed i decided to
- shoot them instead and i think blood came out but it
- look like they had dropped a can of paint. I mean i
- was wowed by this i don't see why anyone should get
- angry when someone says they enjoy doing this as it
- is quite rewarding hitting such a small target. I
- mean if you get angry then how can you argue that
- you can tear them apart inside a perspex box and let
- them burn to death on the way down but not strafe
- them on the ground where you will probably get
- munched by flak anyway, and i think i have seen the
- soldiers shoot back im not sure on that. If you are
- going to flame about how we should not shoot
- defencless ground troops then you may as well go and
- flame in FPS forums like in the BF1942 forums where
- you are encouraged to strafe ground troops.
-
- Wilhelm



just as a kind of BTW, there isn't any blood and they don't shoot back (AAA shoots back but not the fleeing troops/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

but you are right that there is no real difference between blowing someone to bits in a plane and doing it to someone on the ground - especially when they're all pixels anyway.



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