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Crash_Moses
06-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Okay, Gents. I need some feedback from all you level bombing afficianados.

I've been working on a comprehensive level bombing guide for the B-25/PBJ and I think my bombing tables are pretty dang accurate. (Okay, they are scary accurate. Amazing accurate. They are "you won't believe how accurate they are" accurate).

But in the land of IL-2/PF things are never quite like they seem so I thought I'd enlist the help of some New Guinea pigs (Ha! Get it?) to verify my accuracy before I make the entire guide available.

What follows is an edited version of my bombing table instructions followed by the chart for a bomb run at 10,000ft. If some of y'all would be so kind as to set up a mission in the FMB to test the chart I truly would appreciate the feedback (positive, negative, or other).

I used object 177 and a fishing boat for my initial testing and I'd be happy to e-mail the mission to anyone who asks. Just PM me your e-mail address and I'll get it out to ya.

Also, if one of the mods could link this to the General Discussion Forum, I'd like to pick the brains of the non-PTO enthusiast crowd. Thanks in advance.

Well, here it is...don't be too hard on me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
-------------------------------------------------------------
DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE OF THE BOMBING TABLES

1. Engage level stabilizer. I like to engage the level stabilizer once I€m 50 to 100 feet above my target altitude. It€s much easier to adjust your altitude down using elevator trim than it is to climb.

Remember that the level stabilizer is not an autopilot (so don€t confuse it with the Toggle Level Autopilot command. They are not the same thing!) The level stabilizer will keep the B-25/PBJ straight and level so you want to make sure you€re pointed in the general direction of your target before you engage it.

2. Set Flaps. Flaps are sometimes required because at high altitudes and/or low speeds the B-25/PBJ is too heavy to maintain altitude otherwise.

An interesting historical note: The fuel pickup in the B-25/PBJ fuel tanks was too high to get all the fuel in the tanks (to the tune of about 40 gallons). Pilots would often fly with 1/4 flaps in order to use the remaining fuel and thus extend the aircraft€s€ range.

3. Verify throttle and prop pitch settings. I recommend setting these as soon as you reach altitude to give the plane time to settle.

Find the chart that matches your altitude, fuel level and payload and change your throttle and prop pitch accordingly.

For instance: If you€re going to drop ordinance from 10,000ft with 50% fuel and 4x500lbs bombs you would set your throttle to 74 and your prop pitch to 90. If your fuel level falls between two columns then use the settings for the nearest one (i.e. if you have 60% fuel then use the 50% fuel column).

NOTE: Some rows are split into two different variables. The upper numbers indicate the optimum setting. The lower numbers are a compromise for those who don€t have trim mapped to a knob or slider.

4. Center your rudder. At this point you should be headed more or less towards the target. Use your rudder trim to center the ball.

Important! Neutralize your trim before you take off! Your trim is not automatically centered when you start the game (I suspect this has something to do with joystick calibration). You must map keys to the Rudder Trim Neutral and Elevator Trim Neutral commands. If you don€t do this the trim settings in the bombing tables will not work! Once you€ve done this it takes 20-22 clicks of right rudder trim to center the ball (Engine torque is the deciding factor here).

5. Adjust your altitude. Use your elevator trim to adjust your altitude. Positive elevator trim will make the plane sink and negative elevator trim will make it climb.

How I do it: The best way is to start 50 to 100 feet above your target altitude. Apply slight positive elevator trim until you start to sink. I let my altitude dip slightly below my target altitude and then I apply full negative elevator trim until the needle climbs to the exact (exact!) altitude I want.

Now adjust the trim according to the Elev column in the bombing chart. Negative elevator trim makes the aircraft climb and positive elevator trim makes it sink.

There are three trim starting reference points. FP indicates full positive elevator trim, FN indicates full negative elevator trim, and N indicates the neutral position.

Use the keyboard (or HOTAS knob/slider) to reach full negative or full positive trim. You€ll know you€ve reached the limit when the control column stops moving. For neutral just hit the neutral elevator trim key. Once you€ve done this just tap the relevant trim key the required number of times.

For example: Using my previous example of 10,000ft, 50% fuel and 4x500lb bombs the Elev column gives me FP+37. Adjust your elevator trim to full positive and then hit the Elevator Trim Positive key 37 times.

Note: Depending on how far you are from the target you may have to adjust your trim slightly as time passes. Just keep an eye on it and if the plane starts to sink or climb adjust your elevator trim one or two clicks at a time to compensate.

6. Program the bombsight. If you haven€t done so already enter your altitude and TAS into the Norden.

I like to do this before I take off but it can be anytime before you drop your ordinance. It€s just easier to do it early and not have to worry about it. This can be done from the pilot€s seat so sometimes I€ll do it on the climb out.

Use the key mapped to Increase Sight altitude to...guess...increase sight altitude! Use Decrease Sight Altitude to decrease it. Use Increase Sight Velocity and Decrease Sight Velocity to adjust your TAS setting which is under the box marked €œTAS€ in the bombing chart.

Remember to allow for the height of your target above sea level. If your target is on a hill or mountain you may have to do a recon flight beforehand in order to determine the correct altitude. If your intelligence officer is any good he€ll have some relief maps with altitude markings provided before the mission but chances are yer just gonna hafta be a good guesser...

7. Line up on the target. Jump into cockpit #2 and hit the Toggle Gunsight key. You should see the bombsight and a view of the ground below. If not just wait a bit. The bombsight won€t kick on if the plane is still unstable. Use the Increase Sight Distance key to increase the bombsight angle. If you were paying attention in navigation class you should see your target ahead (hopefully far enough away to make some adjustments).

It€s doubtful you€ve managed to point the plane straight at the target but hopefully you€re not more than four or five degrees off. Use your rudder trim to swing the plane left or right to line the crosshairs up on the target. The farther you are away the faster the crosshairs will seem to move so it€s best to adjust early. If you wait too long the plane won€t be able to turn fast enough to line you up. If you can€t see the target directly pick a landmark you know is close (a river or lake perhaps). You did study the map before the mission didn€t you? Didn€t you?!

Once you can see the target raise and/or lower the bombsight angle to keep the target centered. Adjust the rudder trim right or left as needed. If you were smart and used my keypad layout you can make all your bombsight adjustments with just three fingers of one hand. At this point the only keys you should need to press are the rudder trim keys, the sight distance (angle) keys, and the toggle sight mode key.

Note: This is the point of no return. You are officially on your bomb run. You cannot stop. No matter what happens you must not lose sight of the target. Neither enemy fighters, flak, nor an engine fire is reason enough to stop. You will either deliver your ordinance or die trying. Mission accomplishment before troop welfare! Attack!

8. Automatic bombing. Verify your altitude and TAS settings and as soon as you have the target under your cross hairs press the toggle sight mode key. The bombsight should begin tracking the target. Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you should place the crosshairs so the bombs release just before the crosshairs reach the target.

If the bombsight settings are correct the bombsight should begin to creep down slowly. This is normal. As you approach the target the bombsight will begin to slow and eventually stop moving. This happens a few seconds before the bombs release so you€ll have to make some adjustments to keep the crosshairs on target. There are two methods you can use:

Method 1: Disengage the bombsight by hitting the toggle sight mode key and then reengage when the crosshairs are over the target. This can be tricky so it€s best to wait until the crosshairs have crept down a bit. You may have to do this a couple of times before the bombsight begins tracking correctly. As always practice is wise.

Method 2: Use the Increase and Decrease Sight Velocity keys to keep the crosshairs centered. You can change the bombsight velocity without disengaging the bombsight. Decreasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep up and increasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep down. I€ve found this method to be a little more accurate but it€s still easy to make an adjustment too late and accidentally drop your bombs. I don€t recommend using this method above 12,000 ft. Small changes have a big effect at high altitudes and you€ll end up releasing your ordinance before you want to.

9. Manual Bombing. Find the Manual Bombing Angle (MBA) on the bomb chart, line up with the target, set the bombsight angle using the Increase/Decrease Sight Distance keys and when the target passes under the crosshairs drop your ordinance (yelling €œPICKLE!€ is optional).

Manual bombing isn€t as accurate as using the automatic mode but it is fun. It€s also handy when you have several targets separated by more than a few hundred feet. You can spread your ordinance over a larger area by manual bombing. When manual bombing you use the same angle for all settings at a certain altitude but you still need to set your prop. pitch and throttle according to your payload. You should also try and drop your ordinance just a wee bit before the crosshairs cover the target to account for that second between thought and action. I don€t recommend manual bombing at high altitudes.

NOTE: Here's a little trick that will make manual bombing a little easier. Make sure your bombsight angle is 0 (pointed straight down) and when you are ready to release your bombs just hit the Toggle Sight Mode key (the key that turns the bombsight on and off). All your bombs will drop at once and you don't have to keep pounding the fire button when dropping multiple bombs.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bombingtables2.gif

Crash_Moses
06-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Okay, Gents. I need some feedback from all you level bombing afficianados.

I've been working on a comprehensive level bombing guide for the B-25/PBJ and I think my bombing tables are pretty dang accurate. (Okay, they are scary accurate. Amazing accurate. They are "you won't believe how accurate they are" accurate).

But in the land of IL-2/PF things are never quite like they seem so I thought I'd enlist the help of some New Guinea pigs (Ha! Get it?) to verify my accuracy before I make the entire guide available.

What follows is an edited version of my bombing table instructions followed by the chart for a bomb run at 10,000ft. If some of y'all would be so kind as to set up a mission in the FMB to test the chart I truly would appreciate the feedback (positive, negative, or other).

I used object 177 and a fishing boat for my initial testing and I'd be happy to e-mail the mission to anyone who asks. Just PM me your e-mail address and I'll get it out to ya.

Also, if one of the mods could link this to the General Discussion Forum, I'd like to pick the brains of the non-PTO enthusiast crowd. Thanks in advance.

Well, here it is...don't be too hard on me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
-------------------------------------------------------------
DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE OF THE BOMBING TABLES

1. Engage level stabilizer. I like to engage the level stabilizer once I€m 50 to 100 feet above my target altitude. It€s much easier to adjust your altitude down using elevator trim than it is to climb.

Remember that the level stabilizer is not an autopilot (so don€t confuse it with the Toggle Level Autopilot command. They are not the same thing!) The level stabilizer will keep the B-25/PBJ straight and level so you want to make sure you€re pointed in the general direction of your target before you engage it.

2. Set Flaps. Flaps are sometimes required because at high altitudes and/or low speeds the B-25/PBJ is too heavy to maintain altitude otherwise.

An interesting historical note: The fuel pickup in the B-25/PBJ fuel tanks was too high to get all the fuel in the tanks (to the tune of about 40 gallons). Pilots would often fly with 1/4 flaps in order to use the remaining fuel and thus extend the aircraft€s€ range.

3. Verify throttle and prop pitch settings. I recommend setting these as soon as you reach altitude to give the plane time to settle.

Find the chart that matches your altitude, fuel level and payload and change your throttle and prop pitch accordingly.

For instance: If you€re going to drop ordinance from 10,000ft with 50% fuel and 4x500lbs bombs you would set your throttle to 74 and your prop pitch to 90. If your fuel level falls between two columns then use the settings for the nearest one (i.e. if you have 60% fuel then use the 50% fuel column).

NOTE: Some rows are split into two different variables. The upper numbers indicate the optimum setting. The lower numbers are a compromise for those who don€t have trim mapped to a knob or slider.

4. Center your rudder. At this point you should be headed more or less towards the target. Use your rudder trim to center the ball.

Important! Neutralize your trim before you take off! Your trim is not automatically centered when you start the game (I suspect this has something to do with joystick calibration). You must map keys to the Rudder Trim Neutral and Elevator Trim Neutral commands. If you don€t do this the trim settings in the bombing tables will not work! Once you€ve done this it takes 20-22 clicks of right rudder trim to center the ball (Engine torque is the deciding factor here).

5. Adjust your altitude. Use your elevator trim to adjust your altitude. Positive elevator trim will make the plane sink and negative elevator trim will make it climb.

How I do it: The best way is to start 50 to 100 feet above your target altitude. Apply slight positive elevator trim until you start to sink. I let my altitude dip slightly below my target altitude and then I apply full negative elevator trim until the needle climbs to the exact (exact!) altitude I want.

Now adjust the trim according to the Elev column in the bombing chart. Negative elevator trim makes the aircraft climb and positive elevator trim makes it sink.

There are three trim starting reference points. FP indicates full positive elevator trim, FN indicates full negative elevator trim, and N indicates the neutral position.

Use the keyboard (or HOTAS knob/slider) to reach full negative or full positive trim. You€ll know you€ve reached the limit when the control column stops moving. For neutral just hit the neutral elevator trim key. Once you€ve done this just tap the relevant trim key the required number of times.

For example: Using my previous example of 10,000ft, 50% fuel and 4x500lb bombs the Elev column gives me FP+37. Adjust your elevator trim to full positive and then hit the Elevator Trim Positive key 37 times.

Note: Depending on how far you are from the target you may have to adjust your trim slightly as time passes. Just keep an eye on it and if the plane starts to sink or climb adjust your elevator trim one or two clicks at a time to compensate.

6. Program the bombsight. If you haven€t done so already enter your altitude and TAS into the Norden.

I like to do this before I take off but it can be anytime before you drop your ordinance. It€s just easier to do it early and not have to worry about it. This can be done from the pilot€s seat so sometimes I€ll do it on the climb out.

Use the key mapped to Increase Sight altitude to...guess...increase sight altitude! Use Decrease Sight Altitude to decrease it. Use Increase Sight Velocity and Decrease Sight Velocity to adjust your TAS setting which is under the box marked €œTAS€ in the bombing chart.

Remember to allow for the height of your target above sea level. If your target is on a hill or mountain you may have to do a recon flight beforehand in order to determine the correct altitude. If your intelligence officer is any good he€ll have some relief maps with altitude markings provided before the mission but chances are yer just gonna hafta be a good guesser...

7. Line up on the target. Jump into cockpit #2 and hit the Toggle Gunsight key. You should see the bombsight and a view of the ground below. If not just wait a bit. The bombsight won€t kick on if the plane is still unstable. Use the Increase Sight Distance key to increase the bombsight angle. If you were paying attention in navigation class you should see your target ahead (hopefully far enough away to make some adjustments).

It€s doubtful you€ve managed to point the plane straight at the target but hopefully you€re not more than four or five degrees off. Use your rudder trim to swing the plane left or right to line the crosshairs up on the target. The farther you are away the faster the crosshairs will seem to move so it€s best to adjust early. If you wait too long the plane won€t be able to turn fast enough to line you up. If you can€t see the target directly pick a landmark you know is close (a river or lake perhaps). You did study the map before the mission didn€t you? Didn€t you?!

Once you can see the target raise and/or lower the bombsight angle to keep the target centered. Adjust the rudder trim right or left as needed. If you were smart and used my keypad layout you can make all your bombsight adjustments with just three fingers of one hand. At this point the only keys you should need to press are the rudder trim keys, the sight distance (angle) keys, and the toggle sight mode key.

Note: This is the point of no return. You are officially on your bomb run. You cannot stop. No matter what happens you must not lose sight of the target. Neither enemy fighters, flak, nor an engine fire is reason enough to stop. You will either deliver your ordinance or die trying. Mission accomplishment before troop welfare! Attack!

8. Automatic bombing. Verify your altitude and TAS settings and as soon as you have the target under your cross hairs press the toggle sight mode key. The bombsight should begin tracking the target. Please note that the crosshairs indicate where the first set of bombs will hit. If you want to pickle the target with multiple bombs you should place the crosshairs so the bombs release just before the crosshairs reach the target.

If the bombsight settings are correct the bombsight should begin to creep down slowly. This is normal. As you approach the target the bombsight will begin to slow and eventually stop moving. This happens a few seconds before the bombs release so you€ll have to make some adjustments to keep the crosshairs on target. There are two methods you can use:

Method 1: Disengage the bombsight by hitting the toggle sight mode key and then reengage when the crosshairs are over the target. This can be tricky so it€s best to wait until the crosshairs have crept down a bit. You may have to do this a couple of times before the bombsight begins tracking correctly. As always practice is wise.

Method 2: Use the Increase and Decrease Sight Velocity keys to keep the crosshairs centered. You can change the bombsight velocity without disengaging the bombsight. Decreasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep up and increasing the velocity will cause the crosshairs to creep down. I€ve found this method to be a little more accurate but it€s still easy to make an adjustment too late and accidentally drop your bombs. I don€t recommend using this method above 12,000 ft. Small changes have a big effect at high altitudes and you€ll end up releasing your ordinance before you want to.

9. Manual Bombing. Find the Manual Bombing Angle (MBA) on the bomb chart, line up with the target, set the bombsight angle using the Increase/Decrease Sight Distance keys and when the target passes under the crosshairs drop your ordinance (yelling €œPICKLE!€ is optional).

Manual bombing isn€t as accurate as using the automatic mode but it is fun. It€s also handy when you have several targets separated by more than a few hundred feet. You can spread your ordinance over a larger area by manual bombing. When manual bombing you use the same angle for all settings at a certain altitude but you still need to set your prop. pitch and throttle according to your payload. You should also try and drop your ordinance just a wee bit before the crosshairs cover the target to account for that second between thought and action. I don€t recommend manual bombing at high altitudes.

NOTE: Here's a little trick that will make manual bombing a little easier. Make sure your bombsight angle is 0 (pointed straight down) and when you are ready to release your bombs just hit the Toggle Sight Mode key (the key that turns the bombsight on and off). All your bombs will drop at once and you don't have to keep pounding the fire button when dropping multiple bombs.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/bombingtables2.gif

Crash_Moses
06-07-2006, 09:28 PM
Ha! Made ya look...

Ernst_Rohr
06-07-2006, 10:57 PM
Looks good so far Crash, I ran a couple of quick missions and your table seems to be spot on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I need to run a couple of other configs to see, but so far, looks good!

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 06:19 AM
Thanks, Ernst! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Out of curiosity, do you use the keyboard to adjust prop pitch or do you have it assigned to a wheel or slider? I've found that I can get better accuracy when I make fine adjustments to prop pitch but I tested the table in increments of 10 because I figure not too many people can adjust prop pitch in smaller increments.

I'm working on some of the higher altitudes now and I'm finding that I can't achieve the same accuracy I could at 10,000ft. I mean, I can if I adjust the prop. pitch one or two percent but I'm trying to avoid that.

Hmmm...maybe I should start a poll...

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 02:49 PM
bumpity

Kernow
06-08-2006, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
...Once you€ve done this it takes 20 clicks of right rudder trim to center the ball (+/- 1 or 2. This is independent of altitude or speed. Don€t know why...it just is).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not what I find. I agree it takes about 20 taps of right rudder to centre the ball when climbing at 140 mph or so, but once the speed builds up when level I find I need to make a few taps on the left rudder trim key.

That makes sense too. With increased speed the trim that has been set is more effective at countering the engine torque effect, so less trim is needed. It's also usual to cruise at a lower power setting than is used in the climb, (if you actually want your formation to stay together - it seems most online 'leaders' don't, but that's another story) so less right trim is required in the first place.

Anyway, that's what I find. Otherwise what you say seems spot on.

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 04:53 PM
Roger that! Thanks for the feedback.

I've also noticed that the higher I am the more clicks I need to center the ball. At 10,000ft it was around 19 or 20 depending on speed and at 12,000ft it averages 20 or 21 which also makes sense. I've also found that if I don't neutral the rudder each time I fly it throws everything out of whack so now that's the first thing I do.

S!

Crash_Moses
06-08-2006, 09:38 PM
Bedtime bump. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ernst_Rohr
06-08-2006, 10:58 PM
I have prop pitch on a slider Crash. Since I fly Japanese birds all the time, its kind of a must have! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 06:41 AM
I agree. I use prop pitch and trim constantly. Those dang SBDs overheat fast!

Judging from the responses I have so far I'm thinking that the folks that might actually use my table probably have prop pitch assigned to an axis.

Kernow
06-09-2006, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
...I've also found that if I don't neutral the rudder each time I fly it throws everything out of whack so now that's the first thing I do.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed that in the past - and had some real 'interesting' take-offs as a result. However, I've not noticed it in a while, but that may well be because I always put all trims to neutral as part of my pre-landing checks now. That seems to keep the ball pretty central for landing and may well get carried forward to the next flight, so that I always spawn with neutral trim set.

Oh, I only have one slider, so my rpm is set on the kb or, more usually, by nudging the POV hat left or right since I got trackIR and didn't need the hat for looking around.

Crash_Moses
06-09-2006, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
...I've also found that if I don't neutral the rudder each time I fly it throws everything out of whack so now that's the first thing I do.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed that in the past - and had some real 'interesting' take-offs as a result. However, I've not noticed it in a while, but that may well be because I always put all trims to neutral as part of my pre-landing checks now. That seems to keep the ball pretty central for landing and may well get carried forward to the next flight, so that I always spawn with neutral trim set.

Oh, I only have one slider, so my rpm is set on the kb or, more usually, by nudging the POV hat left or right since I got trackIR and didn't need the hat for looking around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you should mention that. I was just browsing through my old B-25 manual and one of the steps in the pre-takeoff checklist is neutralizing (i.e. centering) the controls.

Crash_Moses
06-10-2006, 07:28 AM
Weekend warrior bumpity

Crash_Moses
06-10-2006, 10:09 PM
Check out my post count. All bumps. Every one of 'em...

Crash_Moses
06-11-2006, 04:17 PM
...and that's when they made me their chief.

Crash_Moses
06-12-2006, 02:12 PM
12,000ft table is done. Inserted it in my original post.

You'll notice that a couple of the fields have two values. The top value is the optimum setting for those with prop pitch on a wheel or slider. The bottom value is for those without...

Not that you care. Ungrateful wretches...harumph!

S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rebel_Yell_21
06-12-2006, 04:20 PM
Very nicely done tables for my fav flyable in this game.

Beats the hell outta my old notepad scratching.

Crash_Moses
06-12-2006, 08:07 PM
S!http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/salute.gif

I'm sorry I called you an ungrateful wretch...

Crash_Moses
06-17-2006, 08:20 AM
Oh, what the heck...bump!

Crash_Moses
06-18-2006, 08:40 PM
Ya know, I've been a thinkin'. This B-25 bug is really...well...bugging me. The accuracy of my tables is far outside the historical norm and I'm wondering if maybe the bug was introduced intentionally to balance gameplay and make it more historically accurate. I mean, if the bug wasn't there the B-25/PBJ would be the perfect plane and everybody would be flying it...
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(snicker)

joeap
06-20-2006, 03:42 AM
Hey Crash, seems like a very handy table. Been trying a few single missions and getting decent results will post back more.



*Didn't swallow bait*

Crash_Moses
06-20-2006, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
*Didn't swallow bait* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither did anybody else! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Guess I made it a little too obvious. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But yes, let me know how the tables work fer ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

S!

Crash_Moses
06-24-2006, 08:12 PM
400 posts...wahoo! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

joeap
06-25-2006, 04:17 AM
Crash, the tables seem to be very good, my skill with the B-25 is not though. I still get a bit too much drift compared with the other planes. Mind you at least I can see targets easier than with the russian bombsight on the Pe-2. IF I can get close to the parameters on your table I seem to hit better. What it is I overadjust when I see the slight drift on the sight.

zaelu
06-25-2006, 04:33 AM
I don't use any table while bombing (Actualy sometimes I use "Bombsight table 2" program).

I just get corect altitude from the target then make shure the crosshair stays put on the spot I want to bomb by varieing the bombsight velocity till it matches the correct value. Then light up a cigar.

Is this way so incorrect?

The Pe-2 is still the coolest level bomber :P.

Crash_Moses
06-25-2006, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Crash, the tables seem to be very good, my skill with the B-25 is not though. I still get a bit too much drift compared with the other planes. Mind you at least I can see targets easier than with the russian bombsight on the Pe-2. IF I can get close to the parameters on your table I seem to hit better. What it is I overadjust when I see the slight drift on the sight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know exactly what you're talking about, joeap. It's hard to know how many clicks of rudder trim you need to center yourself. I wish there was a slip indicator somewhere in the bomsight view...lol.

But this is what I do. Below is my control configuration for the bombsight. Notice that the rudder trim keys are on either side of the Toggle Sight Mode keys. This lets you make rudder adjustments and engagne/disengage the sight all with one hand as well as putting the Sight Distance keys within easy reach (e.g. bombsight angle). Try it this way and, as always, practice makes perfect!

S!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/image53.gif

Crash_Moses
06-25-2006, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaelu:
I don't use any table while bombing (Actualy sometimes I use "Bombsight table 2" program).

I just get corect altitude from the target then make shure the crosshair stays put on the spot I want to bomb by varieing the bombsight velocity till it matches the correct value. Then light up a cigar.

Is this way so incorrect?

The Pe-2 is still the coolest level bomber :P. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, your method is far from incorrect. I'm sure it works just fine (well, I know it does...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

But, as I've said earlier in the thread (and which I'll reiterate again), what I've tried to achieve with the bombing tables is complete accuracy. No guesswork, no Kentucky windage, no spray and pray. I know it seems a bit complicated but as far as I can tell it works very, very well.

I guess what I was originally going for was a way to hit ships reliably from any approach angle. Using Bombsight Table II (or other methods for that matter) I was only able to hit ships by approaching them lengthwise and that's hard to do if you don't know the ships' orientation before you take off. Now I can sink them from any angle. With ground targets the need for accuracy is much less. And remember too, these tables are for the B-25/PBJ which suffers from a small bug related to TAS and the bombsight.

And yes, the Pe-2 is very cool...but I've already given my heart to the PBJ. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

HellToupee
06-26-2006, 02:15 AM
i prefer that method for land targets tho over a table, because theres no way of knowing the true agl like ship targets, unless u fly over them first scraping the ground. Its still pretty accurate to can land the bombs on a carrier or bb from the side most of the time up to 16000ft and everytime from lengthwise. Plus the methods less effected by dammage ur plane receives eg find one of ur engines shot off on the approach.

leitmotiv
06-26-2006, 04:52 AM
Know where I can get a proper USN/USMC scheme for my PBJ, Crash_Moses?

zaelu
06-26-2006, 05:29 AM
Well if I have a ship to bomb and I'm in a dogfight server first time on the map... I make a fighter run to the ships to see how the problem looks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If I'm in a coop and have the same ingrat mission I send a team mate ahead.

Same thing I do if the target looks on a hill or a mountain... first I need the target elevation. You know... some teamates died for that "number" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

The bigest problem is to hit from 5Km Alt a moving ship. Hm... Now I realise that I never tried thinking it imposible.

Crash_Moses
06-26-2006, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Know where I can get a proper USN/USMC scheme for my PBJ, Crash_Moses? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do I ever!

I have a version that I've been working on for awhile but it's unfinished. Besides, the versions by Monguse are much better and, as far as I can tell, historically accurate.

Check out this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=45410...381042334#5381042334 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=45410763&m=3271071334&r=5381042334#5381042334)

and this one for some other links I think:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/789...821003334#6821003334 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/7891042334/r/6821003334#6821003334)

Crash_Moses
06-26-2006, 06:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaelu:
Well if I have a ship to bomb and I'm in a dogfight server first time on the map... I make a fighter run to the ships to see how the problem looks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If I'm in a coop and have the same ingrat mission I send a team mate ahead.

Same thing I do if the target looks on a hill or a mountain... first I need the target elevation. You know... some teamates died for that "number" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

The bigest problem is to hit from 5Km Alt a moving ship. Hm... Now I realise that I never tried thinking it imposible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehehe...I like to load up the map off-line to check it out.

Hmmm...that sounds like a good project...maps with the elevation marked.

Wonder how hard that would be....(wanders off mumbling and scratching his head).

leitmotiv
06-26-2006, 07:45 AM
In the blue! Just realized how much better the airplane looks in blue. Going to have to buy a Hasegawa 1:72 North American!

Crash_Moses
06-26-2006, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
In the blue! Just realized how much better the airplane looks in blue. Going to have to buy a Hasegawa 1:72 North American! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah...I've had my eye on that one for awhile. I really like some of the dark, dark blue paintjobs that VMSB-613 used for night missions. Absolutely wicked...

HellToupee
06-26-2006, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaelu:
The bigest problem is to hit from 5Km Alt a moving ship. Hm... Now I realise that I never tried thinking it imposible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you are attacking length ways u can use the auto tracking method of keeping the sight tracking the target, which seems to account for the ships speed towards and away from you in my testing, from other angles, good luck :P

leitmotiv
06-26-2006, 06:53 PM
That's exactly what I'm set to do, Crash_Moses!

joeap
06-28-2006, 01:38 AM
Crash_Moses, you rock dude! I got into the B-25, actually into a bomb training mission I got off someone on the missions forum and just added a B-25 to it. It is one of the Pacific islands with a bombing marker set up at one end. I was very careful to follow the parameters on your table, I chose 50% fuel and 6 250 lb bombs. 10 000 feet. I made sure (cause before I forgot) to adjust SC and make sure I was manually flying at 100 000 feet and in line before hitting level AP. I also zeroed all my trim before adjusting. Your keyboard assignments are excellent and far easier than mine, I just changed one or two small things.

I also started tracking a bit later...anyway I followed the table to the letter:

Result?

ALL 6 bombs fell in the circle.

ALL OF THEM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

I can't wait to try other combinations from the table. Now I can fly and bomb with the B-25 again, (and your keys make it easier for the other bombers too). Gonna recommend your tables on all the forums I visit.

Crash_Moses
06-28-2006, 06:31 AM
Aww shucks... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Outstanding! Glad to help. I'm two thirds done with 20,000ft and I'll post it as soon as I finish. Then I'll start in on 14,000ft.

S!

Platypus_1.JaVA
06-28-2006, 11:43 AM
Sooooo, what do I do when I want to bomb from any altitude and any airspeed?

WWSensei
06-28-2006, 11:52 AM
The "adjust bombsight parameters to maintain crosshairs" is also historical. I had an acquaintence who was a B-29 bombadier (he was also a consultant on "B-17: The Mighty Eighth" and he described that method as being the one the used.

Crash_Moses
06-28-2006, 12:20 PM
lol...well, I'm afraid you'd be back to doing it the old-fashioned way. The tables might be accurate enough to fudge it on an odd altitude (i.e. use the 10,000ft table at 11,000ft). But I don't know if that would work or not. Maybe you could try it out and let us know. I imagine I'll get around to it eventually.

Or maybe you could round up or down. If you're between 10,000ft and 11,000ft use the 10,000ft table. If you're between 11,000ft and 12,000ft use the 12,000ft table.

But it's not like the other methods don't work. They work just fine. It really depends on personal preference. I imagine there are a lot of pilots that don't want to mess around with a bunch of complicated tables. They just want to get up in the air and blow things up.

If you're honestly asking how, I'd use this technique for automatic bombing (manual bombing requires the use of some kind of table no matter what...unless you have the angles memorized).

1. Climb to altitude (whatever altitude you like). Engage your level stabilizer and adjust trim for level flight.

2. Adjust throttle until you get an IAS of 200 mph (or not...your choice).

3. Line up on your target using rudder trim for fine adjustments.

4. Enter your altitude into the bombsight.

5. Enter your speed into the bomsight.

6. Once your target is in the bombsight, adjust the bombsight velocity until it tracks the target accuratly (or as accuratly as you can make it in 10 mph increments).

7. The sight will never track perfectly so you'll have to disengage and reengage the sight in order to keep the target in the cross-hairs. As you get closer you'll have to make fewer adjustments.

8. When you're fairly close and it looks like the sight is tracking okay just wait for the bombs to drop.

9. I like to wait for the bombs to hit (the colors are pretty) but after that...head for the deck and beat feet home.

Crash_Moses
06-28-2006, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
The "adjust bombsight parameters to maintain crosshairs" is also historical. I had an acquaintence who was a B-29 bombadier (he was also a consultant on "B-17: The Mighty Eighth" and he described that method as being the one the used. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read that before also. Cool! Oleg does it again... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Crash_Moses
07-01-2006, 12:04 PM
Finally finished 20,000ft! Whew! (as always, you'll find it in the first post).

This one was a royal pain. Still not convinced it's 100% accurate so if you find any mistakes, yoller. I'll eventually go back and verify everything (again...sigh) but right now I have a week off and I'm going to try and finish up the full guide.

I've added a capitol N to the Trim column. It just designates neutral elevator trim so don't let it throw you. I'll eventually go back and change the other trim tables to match.

Well, gotta go mow the lawn before it rains. Happy bombing!

S!

Crash_Moses
07-09-2006, 09:14 PM
Me again!

In response to all the great feeback I've gotten I've made some changes to the tables and instructions to clear up some ambiguities and correct a few things. I also changed how the elevator trim settings are annotated.

Happy bombing!!

S!

Crash_Moses
07-10-2006, 02:54 PM
Awright, listen up maggots!

Finally finished 14,000ft (my favorite, I think).

But don't bother looking up top 'cause it ain't there. I also finished the full guide and the fellers at airwarfare.com have graciously offered to hide it...er...host it at their site. (Thanks, guys!)

Soooo...if you really, really want it yer gonna hafta download it from here:http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm#002

How's that for blatant sel***randizement? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

S!! (and I'm sorry I called you maggots...honest)

Crash_Moses
07-11-2006, 10:38 AM
For those of y'all having problems viewing the file in Wordpad here's a link to the Microsoft Word Viewer. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyi...B8FDF&displaylang=en (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displaylang=en)

S!

Crash_Moses
07-28-2006, 08:59 AM
EURO_Snoopy has finished the HTML version of the guide at airwarfare.com and I must say it looks pretty good (makes me want start learning how to do all that HTML stuff).

A big thanks to EURO_Snoopy and the folks at airwarfare.com...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

S!

Kernow
07-28-2006, 11:49 AM
Nice one CM. Just started reading it and going to put a link to it on the squad forums. Excellent work and nice instructional notes on the instruments. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[just one thing, however, I think you'll find the FAB bombs are just general purpose Soviet bombs measured in kg - they used quite a few B-25s too]

Crash_Moses
07-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Thanks!

Funny you should mention that. I had a hard time finding any kind of info on those and kinda just went with what I could Google and what I knew from experience. Thanks for the info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I had originally planned a more extensive section on the pros and cons of the different bomb loads but it started to turn into something almost as complicated as the tables themselves (at least as far as testing went).

Maybe I'll take that up again.

S!

FDokal
03-07-2012, 03:12 AM
Ok, I know that it's a long time ago but it's only now that I start to get interested by Bombers and that I read that marvelous guide. There is something bugging me though.

Crash Moses, In the "DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE OF THE BOMBING TABLES" chapter, at point "5. Adjust your altitude", you wrote: "Adjust your elevator trim to full positive and then hit the Elevator Trim Positive key 37 times." and it is repeated in the charts, ie "FP+37" ("FP = Full positive trim.", "+(x)= Number of clicks of positive trim.")

Since going Full Positive won't allow you to input any more positive trim command, ins't there a typo?


PS: no worries, I got the relevant card
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/DaGamingGuru/threadnecromancyns1nf0.jpg