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View Full Version : SoW:BoB Spitfire picture. Info request. What mark of Spitfire is it?



major_setback
04-23-2007, 04:29 AM
This is a question for you Spitfire experts out there.
What exact mark of Spitfire is it that we see in the development pictures from SoW:BoB?

I did some detective work and came up with a little bit of information,
but not enough to satisfy my curiosity.
What were the development marks at the very start of produdtion?

These two early Spitfires differ quite a lot in shape.
Are both different versions of the mkI?
The first one seems to be the one we see in development pictures,
it has the same code and nose shape.
This isn't the same mkI though that is seen elsewhere (compare with the second profile picture of the mk I).
What exactly are we seeing in the WIP shots?:

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire_dev.htm

http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/SpitfireI.htm

The Spitfire seen in WIP screenshots:
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire1_CB.jpg

The mkI:

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire1.jpg

mk1A:
http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/spitfire_dorsal.jpg

Development pictures:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/BoBImage2.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/PCG171.jpg

Bonus disc screen capture:
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/cap031.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/cap030.jpg


Here is a photo I found of a Spitfire using that code:
EDIT: the code is similar, but not the same!

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/spit_if.htm

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/img/spit_i/fzl.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
04-23-2007, 04:38 AM
thr Spitfire Mk.I changed in its "shape".........

at the beginning they had no armour, a two bladed, fixed blade angle, wooden propeller.
at the BoB time the most, almost all, had:
3 blade CSP
Rearview mirror
Front and rear armour.

to name the most obvious.

KIMURA
04-23-2007, 04:44 AM
The Spitfire in the screenshot is either a Spitfire Mk.Ia or Mk.IIa. The IIa differs from the Mk.I in the new Merlin XII engine and the add of further armor protection for the pilot. Externally a differece is hard to see.

F-LZ belongs to the 66.SQN.

luftluuver
04-23-2007, 04:44 AM
The Mk I went to 19 Sqd (the yellow 19) at Duxford 18-8-1938. It was the 8th production Spitfire and was SOC 18-4-1939, well before BoB.

ImpStarDuece
04-23-2007, 05:42 AM
Its a Mk Ia with bulged canopy, external armoured screen added and later type 'kidney' exhaust and slant rather than straight type aerial mast, but it looks like it doesn't have the later 'rounded' production cowl modification.

The Spitfire in the screen shots appears to be Mk IA, serial number X4321. If so, then its from the fifth production batch of an order for 500 Mk Is, constructed at Castle Bromwich and delivered between June 1940 and January 1941. It operated with No 65 (East India) Squadron, and was probably flown by Robert Stanford Tuck, who recorded 15 kill claims and numerous damageds during the BoB period.

Armored screen was implemented as standard after about the 200th production Spitfire, and then retrofitted to existing production fighters.

Early production Mk Is have small "Griffon-engine like" ridges on the nose, which carried through, to lesser and lesser degrees, until the Mk VI.

These are something of a hangover from the prototype, which actually had a slightly higher set cowling. The production Mk I had a more rounded, slightly fatter, nose, with the slight ridges for the Merlin cylinder banks. They got a little less pronounced on later production Mk Is which allowed less room for the cylinder banks.

I don't have 'Spitfire: The History' on hand, so I can't tell you much more. There is a full scale replica of X4321 at the Kent Battle of Britain museum though.

major_setback
04-23-2007, 06:20 AM
Great info all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

horseback
04-23-2007, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
thr Spitfire Mk.I changed in its "shape".........

at the beginning they had no armour, a two bladed, fixed blade angle, wooden propeller.
at the BoB time the most, almost all, had:
3 blade CSP
Rearview mirror
Front and rear armour.

to name the most obvious. A slight correction: at the time of the BoB, most Spits had a three bladed variable pitch prop. It seems to me that they were mostly two-pitch (coarse and fine).

True CSP props started showing up during the Battle, for both Spits and Hurris, with Spitfires often ending up with CSP units intended for the more numerous Hurricanes (these can be ID'd by their slightly oversized spinners).

The two types can be told apart by their different spinners; the two speed units appear to be more pointed, and the CSP units are more round/bulbous(and sometimes, a bit too big).

cheers

horseback

KIMURA
04-23-2007, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Its a Mk Ia with bulged canopy, external armoured screen added and later type 'kidney' exhaust and slant rather than straight type aerial mast, but it looks like it doesn't have the later 'rounded' production cowl modification.

The Spitfire in the screen shots appears to be Mk IA, serial number X4321. If so, then its from the fifth production batch of an order for 500 Mk Is, constructed at Castle Bromwich and delivered between June 1940 and January 1941. It operated with No 65 (East India) Squadron, and was probably flown by Robert Stanford Tuck, who recorded 15 kill claims and numerous damageds during the BoB period.

Armored screen was implemented as standard after about the 200th production Spitfire, and then retrofitted to existing production fighters.

Early production Mk Is have small "Griffon-engine like" ridges on the nose, which carried through, to lesser and lesser degrees, until the Mk VI.

These are something of a hangover from the prototype, which actually had a slightly higher set cowling. The production Mk I had a more rounded, slightly fatter, nose, with the slight ridges for the Merlin cylinder banks. They got a little less pronounced on later production Mk Is which allowed less room for the cylinder banks.

I don't have 'Spitfire: The History' on hand, so I can't tell you much more. There is a full scale replica of X4321 at the Kent Battle of Britain museum though.


Seems there's a mismatch in Olegs Spitfire skin. If your info about the serial is correct then the LZ squadron coding is wrong. LZ defined an a/c from the 66. Squadron not as one from the 65.Sqn. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

KIMURA
04-23-2007, 12:32 PM
So, I checked my sources for the X4321.
LZ is the code for the 66.Squadron.
The F was the personal a/c of P/O Crelin Bodie stationed @ Kenley. Bodie made a forced landing in this a/c on 7.September 40 near Hawkinge after a combat vs. 109s near Dover. X4321 was sent to Heston Aircraft Ltd for repairs and by December '40 restored to operational condition again. After that date that a/c served with OTUs No.58 & 303 and ended its career in a flying accident in 42.

ImpStarDuece
04-23-2007, 02:26 PM
Silly me, your right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I'm mildly dislexic, and so I swapped FZ-L (No 66 Squadron) with LZ-F (No 65 Squadron) after a quick run through of my sources. It only took me about three tries for my brain to realise what I'd done.

Give me a phone number, I sure I can c*ck it up worse http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

SirPapps
04-23-2007, 02:30 PM
another thing that make Mk.II's and I's differ from the Mk.Va for example would be the oil cooler under the wing. Early Mk.Va's had a fully circular oil cooler under the port wing, while the Mk.I's and II's of all subvariants were fitted with a half semi-circle oil cooler. Additionally, the Mk.I's and II's as well as early Mk.V's of both Va and Vb subvariants were fitted with fabric-covered ailerons which seriously slowed down roll rate at speeds exceeding 300-350 mph.

one thing that's really odd on that picture are the elvators and stabalizers. early variant spits had a different shape of both surfaces. Look at that 1st development picture. one can see how the line projecting from the tailfin, then to the second elevator joint suddenly makes a 90 degree turn. the early spitfires only had a 45 degree turn there. essentially cutting out that extra horn balance.

http://membres.lycos.fr/wings2/3vues/spit1_3v.jpg

compare thos elevators

horseback
04-23-2007, 02:57 PM
You're right about that extra horn balance, but I've always associated those with the Mk IX and later Marks. I can't count the number of Spit model stabilizers I've cut the elevators off of to pose 'realistically', and that extra bend (a pain to cut out, IMHO) is only seen after the first models of the Mk IX...

cheers

horseback

gx-warspite
04-23-2007, 04:54 PM
Zomg!

The exhaust manifold cover had 5 rivets, not 6! I'm so not buying this game.

faustnik
04-23-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by gx-warspite:
Zomg!

The exhaust manifold cover had 5 rivets, not 6! I'm so not buying this game.

No it has 6, the last one is just hard to see at that angle, we're all good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

BM357_Sniper
04-23-2007, 05:15 PM
So whats this one? I saw it at the airshow I was working at.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/lifeguardhall/sp.jpg

luftluuver
04-23-2007, 05:27 PM
Looks like the Grace Spit.

http://www.ml407.co.uk/pages/main.html

Taylortony
04-23-2007, 06:34 PM
Nope, its not the Grace's Spit, that has an innacurate cut down rear canopy that was designed by Nick Grace, no real spit trainers flew with that canopy, the correct one is the one fitted to the one in your picture.

It is more likely to be the one owned and operated by Bill Greenwood, Aspen, Colorado, USA.

TE308 N308WK Tr.IXc Bill Greenwood, Aspen, Colorado, USA.


Built Castle Bromwich, No RAF record, sold to Vickers Aviation as non-effective on 19.7.50. Conversion to 2-seater G-AWGB. To Irish Air Corps as 163 on 10.7.51. Struck off charge in 1961. Used in 'Battle of Britain' film in 1968. Bought by the late Don Plumb, of Windsor, Ontario who flew it as CF-RAF and C-FRAF from 1970 until he was killed in his Mustang about 1975. The rear cockpit was faired over to make it appear like a single-place Spitfire. Then owned by the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, in Rockland, Maine in 1975 as N92477. Two years later was sold by David B. Keith (aircraft broker) to Woodson K. "Woody" Woods, of Carefree, Arizona and placed in small aviation museum as N308WK . Later, the museum was liquidated, and he moved to Newport Beach, California. Later sold to Bill Greenwood, Aspen, Colorado in 1979 as N308WK.
Photographed at Oshkosh in 1995.
(photo by Dean Alexander)

http://www.militaryairshows.net/spits/036.jpg


details from http://www.military-airshows.co.uk/spitaw.htm