PDA

View Full Version : Beginner Guide to Prop Pitch Management



Pye
01-17-2004, 03:56 AM
The Variable Prop Pitch on a Bf109 Series can be set to Auto or Manual at any time before and during a mission.

Any New Pilot 'SHOULD' keep it set to AUTO until he/she is comfortable with flying and landing and general combat Manouvres. It does default to AUTO at startup so unless you change it, you are prepared to start.

Any attempt to try use Manual prop pitch management before you are ready could have long term negative affects and damage your confidence at wanting to become a proficient Pilot flying IL2:FB

Once you ask yourself 'What benefit can I get' or 'Why do others always use it?' then that is the time to start to learn and get to use it naturally as moving your Joystick throttle to get more speed.

ESSENTIAL Step Number 1
-------------------------

You Need 2 Buttons specifically assigned on your joystick for increasing and decreasing your Prop pitch angle.

These two buttons WILL be the most used buttons of all buttons (including keys ) you've ever assigned in any Flight Simulation you've ever had.

So with that in mind the best place is nearest your Thumb (on the hand that holds the joystick).

Because the Prop pitch values are Up and Down values. Ideally your buttons assigned should be positioned one above the other. The top button for Increase value and the bottom button for Decrease value.

These 2 keys are assigned IL2:FB keyboard SETUP. Then you should configer your Programable joystick to map to these keys.

The above is very important for comfort and ease of use. A Real pilot had a wheel that he could rotate with his left hand to increase and Decrease prop pitch when he needed.

Now go test for a test flight. Using Auto Prop Pitch ONLY take off and fly level. THis is just an excersise to find if you can comfortable using these two keys in during normal level flight or basic manouvres. Just practice using these two keys constantly. Click the up button 2 times, click the down button 3 times, click the up button, 4 times, down button 2 etc, different combinations of up and down.

Even though you aren't doing anything yet, You are preparing yourself for the natural movement of changing the prop pitch by reflex.

The stimulus for that reflex action will be be 2 things.
1) The sound of the Engine
and/or
2) the Dial in the cockpit that represents the Revs counter.

Essential Step Number 2
-----------------------------
Knowing why WW2 Pilots use Pop Pitch


So now you're comfortable with this thumb movement using these two buttons, It should have become second nature, a kind of a nervous but controlled thumb twitch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Up down, down up down down up etc.


Make sure you're on a Runway in the game and your engine is idling. 0 power setting.

Turn your Prop Pitch option to Manual.
(See your IL2:FB key control assignment for this)

Now click your thumb to decrease the prop pitch. It always Defaults to 100 percent. Clicking down and up shows the percent change in steps of 5 percent.

When you do this, the game is simulating the , Propellor Pitch or angle being adjusted mechanically.


Quick History lesson
Imaging the first planes ever made, Fixed Wooden props carved out of 1 chunk of wood. At a predetermined angle. Prop starts spinning and you get going flying. You fly level flight and thats perfect but if you start to climb your engine loses revolutions and therefore power, like a pedal bike or car going up hill with only one gear!! Argghh
History lesson over


The idea of gear change is not to stall when going to slow or to keep your engine from over rev'ing or our legs from going round so fast you can't provide anymore useful push on the pedal down stroke. ie, over-rev'ing (over-revolving) your legs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So because your prop is fixed in the same position your prop is trying to grab the same amount of air, as when you where flying straight and level. But the engine is under stress and losing more revs, due to it climbing. So Flicking your Prop Pitch control up from 75 percent to 80 percent in this example, will move the prop angle physically so as to grab less air, which means the Load on the engine is reduced and that will not make the revolutions drop to a critical stall speed.

It sounds complicated
----------------------------
but isn't!! (you knew I was going to say that!!! )

I now you want to fly and try ....... I can't stop you, so Off you go.... Try in a BF109 F4.

**DO NOT TRY Bf109 E4. This is for people with experience because it more sensative over revving and damages the engine very quick.

But first I Advise you to Set your Prop Pitch to 75% on take off. This will stop you damaging your engine on take off, keep the power setting at 70 percent, only using your Prop Pitch up and down buttons.

This is so you understand and feel and hear the effects that this setting have on your plane.

ESSENTIAL Step Number 3
---------------------------

So what did you Learn. You found out that when you click up (or increase prop pitch), your engine makes a louder noise, thats your engine revolving fast. If it revolves too fast it's called overrevving and will you damage your engine after a while. If you Lowered the percentage, you found the noise of the engine went down, thats because the engine revolutions have been decreased, the Prop is actually trying to 'bite' more air and the poor engine loses more revs and the work only gets harder for the engine , until it stalls!

Remember that the Throttle power settings aren't being used yet. Only to take off and and get your self in level flight to practice.


Essential Step Number 4


The objectives of Prop Pitch is to keep the engine running effiently ie. keep the engine cooler, when climbing, diving or just flying straight and running economically to conserve fuel.
or
it can be tuned to try and get the most speed it can, but also the prop can help reduce speed by creating more drag, when no engine power applied.

The Tachometer or Rev Counter

The Tach (as it is offetened shortened to can be viewed whilst flying in the WIDE view.
This allows you to see the tack whilst seeing the horison, the other views, can me used to get a closer view of the tack to find out what the numbers are.

The Tachometer shows how many revolutions per minute the engine is doing. Each plane cockcit may have it in a different place. But for the Bf100 F4 it is just right of the stick under the other dials. The Maximum we want to keep the needle is 25 that would mean 2500 revs per minute. Don't worry if you go over this temporary just reduce it to that 25 Golden figure. You are Better keeping it just under 25 if you can't get it dead on than just above it, to be on the safe side!!

Now you know what to look for in the cockpit as you fly, try again flying level and You will notice the Engine sound will change as it passes the 25! It sounds more stressed! of course it's running faster than it should. That will be your Audible signal to lower your revs. After a while practicing you will recognise the sounds naturally, without looking at the revs and lower your revs by reflex.

I will quote another Pilot wrote how he practiced. He describes the thought process that goes into controlling the Prop Pitch from level flight.

" <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Quote :


"I used the Bf109 F4 and started a quick mission with just the F4. I turned on the "Wide-View" so I could see the tack (RPMs) without having to change my view to see it. I then set my throttle to 85% and never touched it after that. Then using the prop pitch increasing or decreasing as needed I kept the RPMs at the 25 mark (2500) flying level. I then started a climb and noted that the RPMs started to drop so I increased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. Once I leveled back out the RPMs started to climb so I decreased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. If I started a dive the RPMs would increase so I decreased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. Remember don't touch the throttle when doing this, keep it at one setting and just use the prop pitch.

This helped out for me. I just kept doing it, climbing, diving and flying level. The whole time keeping an eye on the RPMs. I just chose the 85% and 2500 RPMs just for getting used to prop pitch." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So after a while you end up controlling your prop Pitch naturally and instinctivly and this will add another advanced aspect of your flight simulation that in return is very rewarding to use. The AUTO settings is great, but if you want to get a little bit more power out of your plane, as in a manual car, giving you the choice to change up to a higher gear when you want - then Manual Prop pitch is for you.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



Extra Information about Constant Speed Propellors
---------------------------------------

Other aircraft use different systems. Most common being the Constant Speed Propellor.
Both Variable Pitch and Constant Speed Propellors ARE BOTH variable pitch propellors!!

But the Constant speed propellor has the advantage that the Pilot sets the revolutions that he wants and the prop pitch is changed automatically! nice hey!

The term "constant speed" refers to a refinement in which the 'pilot' sets a rotational speed (RPM) at which he wants the prop to operate. Then a "governor" (a mechanical device to you and me) operates to maintain this speed. This 'governer' sits inside the propellor hub and moves the Prop Pitch automatically to maintain the pilots chosen RPM setting.

So for us pilots we can can set any rev limit we want (within limits, Of course!) without fear of over-revving the engine during combat manouvres. It can be set High revs for more Power or lower revs for Fuel Economy.

Obviously you don't want to run constant Speed propellors at a too high a Revoluton per minute (RPM) for too long also because it will over heat the engine and damage it.



JG3~Pye
www.luftwaffe.net (http://www.luftwaffe.net)



------------------------------------------------
Edited to add extra info on constant prop pitch propellors

[This message was edited by Pye on Sun January 18 2004 at 04:03 AM.]

Pye
01-17-2004, 03:56 AM
The Variable Prop Pitch on a Bf109 Series can be set to Auto or Manual at any time before and during a mission.

Any New Pilot 'SHOULD' keep it set to AUTO until he/she is comfortable with flying and landing and general combat Manouvres. It does default to AUTO at startup so unless you change it, you are prepared to start.

Any attempt to try use Manual prop pitch management before you are ready could have long term negative affects and damage your confidence at wanting to become a proficient Pilot flying IL2:FB

Once you ask yourself 'What benefit can I get' or 'Why do others always use it?' then that is the time to start to learn and get to use it naturally as moving your Joystick throttle to get more speed.

ESSENTIAL Step Number 1
-------------------------

You Need 2 Buttons specifically assigned on your joystick for increasing and decreasing your Prop pitch angle.

These two buttons WILL be the most used buttons of all buttons (including keys ) you've ever assigned in any Flight Simulation you've ever had.

So with that in mind the best place is nearest your Thumb (on the hand that holds the joystick).

Because the Prop pitch values are Up and Down values. Ideally your buttons assigned should be positioned one above the other. The top button for Increase value and the bottom button for Decrease value.

These 2 keys are assigned IL2:FB keyboard SETUP. Then you should configer your Programable joystick to map to these keys.

The above is very important for comfort and ease of use. A Real pilot had a wheel that he could rotate with his left hand to increase and Decrease prop pitch when he needed.

Now go test for a test flight. Using Auto Prop Pitch ONLY take off and fly level. THis is just an excersise to find if you can comfortable using these two keys in during normal level flight or basic manouvres. Just practice using these two keys constantly. Click the up button 2 times, click the down button 3 times, click the up button, 4 times, down button 2 etc, different combinations of up and down.

Even though you aren't doing anything yet, You are preparing yourself for the natural movement of changing the prop pitch by reflex.

The stimulus for that reflex action will be be 2 things.
1) The sound of the Engine
and/or
2) the Dial in the cockpit that represents the Revs counter.

Essential Step Number 2
-----------------------------
Knowing why WW2 Pilots use Pop Pitch


So now you're comfortable with this thumb movement using these two buttons, It should have become second nature, a kind of a nervous but controlled thumb twitch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Up down, down up down down up etc.


Make sure you're on a Runway in the game and your engine is idling. 0 power setting.

Turn your Prop Pitch option to Manual.
(See your IL2:FB key control assignment for this)

Now click your thumb to decrease the prop pitch. It always Defaults to 100 percent. Clicking down and up shows the percent change in steps of 5 percent.

When you do this, the game is simulating the , Propellor Pitch or angle being adjusted mechanically.


Quick History lesson
Imaging the first planes ever made, Fixed Wooden props carved out of 1 chunk of wood. At a predetermined angle. Prop starts spinning and you get going flying. You fly level flight and thats perfect but if you start to climb your engine loses revolutions and therefore power, like a pedal bike or car going up hill with only one gear!! Argghh
History lesson over


The idea of gear change is not to stall when going to slow or to keep your engine from over rev'ing or our legs from going round so fast you can't provide anymore useful push on the pedal down stroke. ie, over-rev'ing (over-revolving) your legs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So because your prop is fixed in the same position your prop is trying to grab the same amount of air, as when you where flying straight and level. But the engine is under stress and losing more revs, due to it climbing. So Flicking your Prop Pitch control up from 75 percent to 80 percent in this example, will move the prop angle physically so as to grab less air, which means the Load on the engine is reduced and that will not make the revolutions drop to a critical stall speed.

It sounds complicated
----------------------------
but isn't!! (you knew I was going to say that!!! )

I now you want to fly and try ....... I can't stop you, so Off you go.... Try in a BF109 F4.

**DO NOT TRY Bf109 E4. This is for people with experience because it more sensative over revving and damages the engine very quick.

But first I Advise you to Set your Prop Pitch to 75% on take off. This will stop you damaging your engine on take off, keep the power setting at 70 percent, only using your Prop Pitch up and down buttons.

This is so you understand and feel and hear the effects that this setting have on your plane.

ESSENTIAL Step Number 3
---------------------------

So what did you Learn. You found out that when you click up (or increase prop pitch), your engine makes a louder noise, thats your engine revolving fast. If it revolves too fast it's called overrevving and will you damage your engine after a while. If you Lowered the percentage, you found the noise of the engine went down, thats because the engine revolutions have been decreased, the Prop is actually trying to 'bite' more air and the poor engine loses more revs and the work only gets harder for the engine , until it stalls!

Remember that the Throttle power settings aren't being used yet. Only to take off and and get your self in level flight to practice.


Essential Step Number 4


The objectives of Prop Pitch is to keep the engine running effiently ie. keep the engine cooler, when climbing, diving or just flying straight and running economically to conserve fuel.
or
it can be tuned to try and get the most speed it can, but also the prop can help reduce speed by creating more drag, when no engine power applied.

The Tachometer or Rev Counter

The Tach (as it is offetened shortened to can be viewed whilst flying in the WIDE view.
This allows you to see the tack whilst seeing the horison, the other views, can me used to get a closer view of the tack to find out what the numbers are.

The Tachometer shows how many revolutions per minute the engine is doing. Each plane cockcit may have it in a different place. But for the Bf100 F4 it is just right of the stick under the other dials. The Maximum we want to keep the needle is 25 that would mean 2500 revs per minute. Don't worry if you go over this temporary just reduce it to that 25 Golden figure. You are Better keeping it just under 25 if you can't get it dead on than just above it, to be on the safe side!!

Now you know what to look for in the cockpit as you fly, try again flying level and You will notice the Engine sound will change as it passes the 25! It sounds more stressed! of course it's running faster than it should. That will be your Audible signal to lower your revs. After a while practicing you will recognise the sounds naturally, without looking at the revs and lower your revs by reflex.

I will quote another Pilot wrote how he practiced. He describes the thought process that goes into controlling the Prop Pitch from level flight.

" <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Quote :


"I used the Bf109 F4 and started a quick mission with just the F4. I turned on the "Wide-View" so I could see the tack (RPMs) without having to change my view to see it. I then set my throttle to 85% and never touched it after that. Then using the prop pitch increasing or decreasing as needed I kept the RPMs at the 25 mark (2500) flying level. I then started a climb and noted that the RPMs started to drop so I increased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. Once I leveled back out the RPMs started to climb so I decreased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. If I started a dive the RPMs would increase so I decreased the prop pitch to keep the RPMs at 25. Remember don't touch the throttle when doing this, keep it at one setting and just use the prop pitch.

This helped out for me. I just kept doing it, climbing, diving and flying level. The whole time keeping an eye on the RPMs. I just chose the 85% and 2500 RPMs just for getting used to prop pitch." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So after a while you end up controlling your prop Pitch naturally and instinctivly and this will add another advanced aspect of your flight simulation that in return is very rewarding to use. The AUTO settings is great, but if you want to get a little bit more power out of your plane, as in a manual car, giving you the choice to change up to a higher gear when you want - then Manual Prop pitch is for you.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



Extra Information about Constant Speed Propellors
---------------------------------------

Other aircraft use different systems. Most common being the Constant Speed Propellor.
Both Variable Pitch and Constant Speed Propellors ARE BOTH variable pitch propellors!!

But the Constant speed propellor has the advantage that the Pilot sets the revolutions that he wants and the prop pitch is changed automatically! nice hey!

The term "constant speed" refers to a refinement in which the 'pilot' sets a rotational speed (RPM) at which he wants the prop to operate. Then a "governor" (a mechanical device to you and me) operates to maintain this speed. This 'governer' sits inside the propellor hub and moves the Prop Pitch automatically to maintain the pilots chosen RPM setting.

So for us pilots we can can set any rev limit we want (within limits, Of course!) without fear of over-revving the engine during combat manouvres. It can be set High revs for more Power or lower revs for Fuel Economy.

Obviously you don't want to run constant Speed propellors at a too high a Revoluton per minute (RPM) for too long also because it will over heat the engine and damage it.



JG3~Pye
www.luftwaffe.net (http://www.luftwaffe.net)



------------------------------------------------
Edited to add extra info on constant prop pitch propellors

[This message was edited by Pye on Sun January 18 2004 at 04:03 AM.]

zednine
01-17-2004, 04:27 AM
Excellent post Pye.
Thanks for taking the time to pass on your experience to those of us who haven't yet sussed prop pitch and power settings.

repco
01-17-2004, 04:41 AM
Thanks for the clear explanation Pye, I think it's time I stepped up to manual prop pitch. Is it advantageous for all aircraft types, or specifically LW? (I realise what a total noob I sound now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Fornixx
01-17-2004, 05:13 AM
Great post Pye!

mllaneza
01-17-2004, 11:47 AM
I'm forwarding this to my work account, I want a PDF of this and I can make one there.

Veteran - Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1993-1951.

chunkylovepony
01-17-2004, 11:53 AM
Many thanks for this post!

So what if its slow and it can't climb for crap... http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/050104-new1.JPG

ZG77_Lignite
01-17-2004, 11:58 AM
A good explanation for the variable pitch prop type. Just a side note, this explanation is not valid for Constant Speed Props. I believe the Bf109 series is the only aircraft that uses this non-constant speed variable pitch propellor, other aircraft use different systems and work differently.

PlaneEater
01-17-2004, 12:08 PM
Now if we can just get an in-depth explanation of how to best fly THOSE... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lasst das Hollentor offen,
Es FRIERT HIER OBEN!

Old_Canuck
01-17-2004, 12:53 PM
Excellent work, Pye. Thanks for sharing your experience. It will certainly enhance my enjoyment of this sim. This would be a great addition to michapma's IL-2 user's guide IMHO. Haven't read the whole guide yet ...

Here's the link:

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

repco
01-17-2004, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Lignite:
A good explanation for the variable pitch prop type. Just a side note, this explanation is not valid for Constant Speed Props. I believe the Bf109 series is the only aircraft that uses this non-constant speed variable pitch propellor, other aircraft use different systems and work differently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for clarifying Lignite, I thought there might be a difference between constant and variable speed props, but wasn't sure.

Aardvark892
01-17-2004, 01:42 PM
I hope you know just how much this helps. I ALWAYS burn up my 109! I'll be practicing this all night. Now, we've got to find someone who can explain how "prop pitch" works for the airplanes of other nationalities... they seem to have changed how they work since 1.21 came around. Thanks again, mucho!

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

http://www.il2skins.com
http://www.uberdemon.com
http://www.mudmovers.com
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com
http://www.gibbageart.com

credit for MiG-3U Avatar is Unknown (I lost the link). Please let me know if it is yours!

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Aardvark892/PC_Stealth2.jpg

Pye
01-18-2004, 04:21 PM
Thanks Guys, glad some of you are finding it useful. I just added a bit clarifying what what Lignites point out that constant speed prop is treated different to the (manually operated) Variable Prop!

Flakwalker
01-18-2004, 06:33 PM
Nice tutorial, personally to change prop pitch fast I use the mouse wheel, to configure it go to Hotas control conf click on prop pitch and move the mouse whell to up, then will apear something like Mouse Z axis, if you move down will apear Mouse -Z Axis and will increase when moving down.

Regards,

der_Skorpion
01-19-2004, 09:59 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Man what a difference your "tutorial" made. Tried everyhting like you said word for word and it worked great. Thanks for simplifying the process for some of us. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I learned it pretty quick and continued on with one of my pilot profiles I already had running. It really helped with my formation flying too. I do have one question though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What engine setting should be set for the formation flying and then for combat. Is there a rule of thmb for this?? I have been using 100% for formation and then slam it into 110% for combat. Is that OK??? Thanks again.

Cossack13
01-19-2004, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the tutorial, Pye!

Now, any tips on how I can shoot better? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif
Whatever you do, do
NOT buy an Alienware!

potver
01-19-2004, 10:35 AM
Thanks for this crital clear explanation how this thing works, but I have one question regarding Auto/ manuel.Which key is this?

Pye
01-19-2004, 11:48 AM
Der_Skorpion - There is no rule of thumb, Basically you are in control of your
With Formation flying you should be trying to keep the engine running as cool as possible while maintaining the speed to stay in formation. Also you may be wanting not to burn to much fuel especially of you are on a long distance mission.

Keeping your engine cool is useful because if you are called into action to fight, then your engine will take longer to heat up before it starts over heating. I usually run with radiator open slightly although this does cause drag and slows you slightly!

When you enter into combat. You must run your engine with the power setting that you think you need. But you know eventually you are going to overheat so on maximum. If you over heat fast than your opponent then you run the risk of damaging your engine first! If that happenes then you could be a sitting duck with little or no engine power!

So to stop that happening during the fight, you should look at small windows of opportunity to find ways to keep the tempurature down. T

That could be reducing power to 90% or less, Opening radiator temporarily!
Lowering your Prop Pitch as soon as it goes over 25 (x100 rpm) on the dial,



Cossak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There is something that may help your shooting that is important and many beginners don't realise, is to make sure your Joystick have a bigger 'deadzone' on the x,y axis. That can make your aim a lot steadier! This can be done from the Hardware button from the main IL2 Menu or it may be changed from your Joystick Software. Mine is logitech and has the optiont to set x , y deadzones also maybe yours can!

Potver - If you goto "Controls" button from the Il2 main menu, there, you can look down the list of all keyboard assignments and check what the key is or change it to one you prefer. I'm sorry I can't remember what the default key was, had changed it to another engine and you have to decide if you want to treat it kind or make it work harder than it need to.
key too long ago to remember.

The toggle for Prop Pitch Auto/manual

ZG77_Lignite
01-19-2004, 01:04 PM
Just another side note as I happened to be glancing at the Bf109G2 operators manual. There is a 'rule of thumb' for power settings, it goes something like this (only for Bf109G2, earlier and later variants may have higher or lower settings):

War Emergency Power: 2800RPM/1.4ATA
Climb and Combat Power: 2600RPM/1.3ATA
Max Continous: 2300RPM/1.15ATA
Economy Cruise: 2100RPM/1.0ATA

Please note older variants often use a lower RPM setting, while the newer variants may allow for higher RPM/manifold pressure settings. Though this is from the historic document, I believe it holds true in FB also.

der_Skorpion
01-20-2004, 05:57 PM
Cossak??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I have a MFFB joystick. How exactly should I setup my "deadzone" I am always looking for something easier. I porpoise like crazy trying to make my kills. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

JG27_Dacripler
01-20-2004, 07:02 PM
Any tips are beneficial to those who are willing to listen, practice and apply. I once heard wonderful tips but in a different way long ago by one who I consider one of the best K-4 drivers in the game. *(he has a cat in his name)http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As the game matured with the variety of patches from the game were brutal towards the K-4 I simply lost intrest with learning the aircraft and went on to fly the "disk" and play with other toys. As I am relearning the game as from listening once again to those experts who fly the 109 series. Manual pitch is an art to learn and it can be extremely rewarding if worked properly. I have seen individuals work the pitch and am amazed of the discipline it takes to keep the the motor from burning up after several min.. Any tips are nice to hear from those who share