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Riper-Snifle
06-20-2005, 06:19 PM
I wanted to know what the communtiy thought of players who fly bombers like the B-25 or Betty on dogfight servers. I like to fly the bombers occasionally to put something unique in the air and because I often times find enemy pilots on my six rather than at my 12. Some people I have flown with appreciate the different target to go after while others accuse me of a being a noob. I guess it is a noob concept to use tailguns but a truly good fighter pilot should be able to make short work of a bomber without getting hit because of a fighters superior speed and manueverability. What do you think, is flying a bomber on a dogfight server a totally noob thing to do or is it daring??

stathem
06-20-2005, 06:33 PM
I think you'd almost never get abused for flying a bomber - I fly them a lot and never recieved any neg criticism - If you check out the bigger dedicated servers (GG, WC, ZekeVsWildcat/WBoP series) they are usually crying out for more bomber pilots going after the mission goals.

And the oppo certainly enjoy it too...

jetsetsam
06-20-2005, 06:55 PM
I almost always fly bombers on dogfight servers.

I enjoy the struggle of making it to their main base and back, and wacking them when I'm there.

I was using the Japanese Betty last night with INC bombs that go off like bright napalm. Cool.

You won't get much practise at landing.

Crash_Moses
06-20-2005, 06:56 PM
I think flying a B-25 correctly is much harder than flying a fighter on-line. (Although, I also think that flying a group of fighters correctly, in formation, and protecting your bombers is just as hard).

I was a dedicated fighter jock until I started flying on-line and noticed a couple of pilots who seemed to like the bombers. I gave it a try and haven't gone back yet (especially once I discovered that the Marines flew six PBJ (B-25) squadrons in the Pacific Theatre.

For a real challenge, learn how to level-bomb at 10,000+ ft. It totally changes the game. You have to be sneaky and patient but the reaction from all the fighters roaming around at 2000 ft. wondering who the !@#$% sunk their battleship is well worth it.

EiZ0N
06-20-2005, 07:12 PM
Bomb from 10,000 ft? how?!

I'm terrible at bombing.

I'm pretty competent at using fighters and improving all the time, but I'm pretty awful at bombing.

Only way I can hit anything is my dive bombing. I can't hit anything going level over the target. Any tips?

jetsetsam
06-20-2005, 07:34 PM
If there is no AA, come in fast and low (50 m) with a 2 second bomb delay, then just before their main base pull up to about 100 m for better visibility and then it's a timing thing.

Any enemy that sees you is usually too high, and attack head on at too sharp an angle and shoot from too far away, pull up before they can get a bead on you, or crash into the ground.

After bomb release keep going straight and get up to the level where your fighters can get on the tail of anybody chasing you.

Don't turn to return to base unless you can see some fighter protection. 500 - 800 m seems to work for me, especially as you will get shot up and will be lucky to crashland on the way.

Don't go home on the deck because a lot of the enemy fighters are going that way and it makes it too easy for them to get on your tail.

If there is AA then you have to jig up and down to fool the AA. This slows you down and reduces the odds of making it.

Crash_Moses
06-20-2005, 07:37 PM
I am SO happy you asked. There's quite a bit of good info out there. You can search the forums or try AWL_Spinners' guide here:

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/b25_lbg.htm

This is a very good level bombing guide. Also, check out this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/1741024882/r/4631084882#4631084882

It takes patience and practice (I recommend setting up a training mission in the Full Mission Builder) but it is SO worth it.

A very good tip I don't hear mentioned very often though is using your trim to line up on the target. Once you have your basic heading and you have the target in your bombsight you can use your rudder trim to perfect your approach. Don't use a whole lot or you'll slip like crazy but it's great for making minor changes.

Also, and I don't know if this was fixed in the 4.01 patch (been away on business), the speed charts for the B-25 are off a little. I've heard some pilots adjust the setting by about 10% but I just adjust the sight by a few degrees. It works for me. You'll want to play around with different settings and altitudes to see what works for you. Get familiar with the approach and bracketing, etc. and then you can tweak your style to suit you.

TC_Stele
06-20-2005, 07:53 PM
The B-25 can definately be treated like a noob plane if you do so by trying to fly it around like a fighter.

The B-25 as well as the He111 and Betty take a lot of patience, practice, and a bit of skill. To get yourself up into the air at either 10,000 or 15,000 feet requires some patience. From that altitude I'm only assuming you'd want to do a level bombing of the target which requires a bit of practice because you've only got one shot at it. With flak and fighters on your tail the situations intensifies and you gotta keep your cool knowing when to break off or continue on your bombing run. To thwart off bandits on your tail requires some shooting skill. Sure it feels like an arcade sometimes but with good shooting skills I've been able to shoot down 3 fighters at a time in one sortie. Usually the ones that stick right on your six to take you out are the easy targets. Those who go for deflection shots from high or low stand a better chance but then you yourself need to know how to handle those guys too.

EnGaurde
06-20-2005, 08:03 PM
bombers are a thorny target for any japanese plane.

when a human player is controlling a pair of fifties things can get nasty quickly for attacking fighters.

the resilience of bombers also contributes to the need to attack a few times, often someone is after your hide as well so it all adds up pretty quickly.

i tend to attck b25s by sneaking up under, and pulling into a vertical climb raking the underside of the fuselage then pulling right over to get the speed to do it again.

the fuel tanks or the engines usually get the full treatment.

ill only take on bombers on my own if they are unescorted.

and NEVER hit a b25 head on in a Zero. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Crash_Moses
06-20-2005, 08:28 PM
Very good advice from Engaurde and TC_Stele.

In the PTO, Marines used the PBJ mostly for low altitude strafing and skip-bombing. Since the action on most servers is fairly low altitude these approaches can make flying bombers a very frustrating experience (unless you're very, very sneaky).

Level bombing is much harder to master but, for the same reason above, there is a decided tactical advantage to taking the high road especially when flying without escorts.

Due to visibility limitations in PF most fighters stay low to make visual contact with the enemey much easier (this is much less the case on full-real servers but still applicable). By flying high you have a better chance of not being seen and many pilots don't want to expend the time it takes to climb to your altitude.

VW-IceFire
06-20-2005, 09:21 PM
Wow...thats funny. People called you a noob in a B-25. Hilarious!

They probably got waxed by sitting on your tail and letting your tail and top turrets pummel them. Listen...keep up with it. Flying bombers isn't quite as glorious but its something that some of us like to do. Bombers, attack aircraft, and fighter bombers is what I prefer to do myself. Stick with it...learn the tricks of the trade.

jetsetsam
06-20-2005, 09:48 PM
Voice Activated Commands (VAC) is a great help for high level bombing runs. You can get it here:

http://www.dwvac.com/

I've keyed in all the bombadiers commands so that I can speak them rather than pushing a key on my keyboard. It's helped a lot in uderstanding how to line up the gunsight, and it's great for the immersion too.

I also use it to switch between gunners during a run.

Flakmutt
06-21-2005, 02:26 AM
I think that the big bombers tend to be excellent at killing noobies. As was stated before a good fighter pilot will make quick work of any bomber - but against a newbie flying a bomber can be an excellent way to rack up some kills. Most of them don't seem to think that you can fly the plane while shooting from the gunner‚‚ā¨ôs position - there is nothing quite like tipping the nose up when they try to go under you - giving the guns a great shot at the cockpit.

HotelBushranger
06-21-2005, 02:37 AM
No, B-25's aren't noob planes, other people just call you a noob because they are frustrated little boys who keep getting shot down, simple as that.

Tooz_69GIAP
06-21-2005, 05:42 AM
You're kidding, right? How can flying an aircraft which will make you the number one target on the map make you a noob?

Whenever a bomber goes up into the air, the first thing a lot of pilots do is go hunt for it, coz they like to shoot at things that are big, and easy to hit.

I fly bombers most of the time, the B-25, A-20, He-111, Betty, and I often find a bunch of guys pouncing on me!! But I quite often get 3, or maybe 4 of em before I go down!!! If anyone is a noob, it's the idiot who sits on yer 6 and tries to shoot ye down while right bang in the centre of yer gunners site!!

VF-29_Sandman
06-21-2005, 06:00 AM
its a challenge flying a bomber bent on pulverizing not only the hangers, but cratering the runway to make it almost impossible for planes to land or take-off. and for an added bonus: shellacking the spawn point when there's alot of fighters just starting their engines.

i cant remember exactly how high the 88mm gun will reach, but the usual 'light' aaa that's typically set up on airbases are out of range at or about 4000 meters. and yea, bombing from that altitude and having the bombs land where u want them is an art form that would make even yoda proud.

Kernow
06-21-2005, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:

Also, and I don't know if this was fixed in the 4.01 patch (been away on business), the speed charts for the B-25 are off a little. I've heard some pilots adjust the setting by about 10% but I just adjust the sight by a few degrees. It works for me. You'll want to play around with different settings and altitudes to see what works for you. Get familiar with the approach and bracketing, etc. and then you can tweak your style to suit you.

That's right. It changed a few patches ago - I think they tweaked the atmospheric model to improve high alt performance accuracy. The IAS/TAS table looks like it's calculated for 20 degrees C above standard. At most typicl bombing speeds and alts you want to reduce the speed in the bombsight by 10-30 kph.

Use the fig from the table as a guide, then see how the sight behaves when you switch automation on. If the sight stays fixed on target you have it just right; if the sight moves backwards, reduce bombsight speed; if it moves forwards, try increasing the set speed.

sight back = speed back
sight up = speed up

Using the speeds from the table will result in your bombs landing well short, but if you tweak the speed until bombsight movement is nil, or virtually so, you should land the bombs close enough.

It is possible that bombs will still land slightly short, but I can't be certain this is always the case (ie a bug) and from 6 km it's nothing to worry about. If anything I aim on target or slightly long rather than slightly short.

Oh, and no, you're not a noob. There are no noob planes, only noob pilots and they can be found in anything (but hardly ever in a bomber).

Tooz_69GIAP
06-21-2005, 07:00 AM
The bug with the B-25 is that you have to input Knots, NOT mph when setting up your bombsite. This generally takes care of any discrepancies.

Ranger_80
06-21-2005, 07:17 AM
A question to all you bomber people out there, what is the best way to get your gunnery up to spec? I can't hit anything before i get pummelled. Seems even the simplest deflection gets me all cross-eyed compared to fighters. Any advice, best planes to start shooting down?

Atomic_Marten
06-21-2005, 07:58 AM
Well, on the contrary to what some of you guys have experienced while flying bombers and ground attack planes on dogfight servers, I have encountered negative criticism. A lot.
I have been kicked for using bomber in DF server once.

First, I have taken Ju87D and load it up with 1000SC with 2s delay and I have skip-bombed few of them on ground with it. After repeating that more or less succesfully for a few times, I switched to IL-2M3 armed with rockets.
After shooting one LA7 down with rockets while he was taking off, he give me some 'bad words'.
Immediatelly after that, Yak3 tailed me but my rear gunner massacred him (PK). And I also got one Spit9 head-on.

After that server admin asked me not to use ground attack planes any more. I said, "OK, can I use Beaufighter? He do not have rear gunner?" He did not answered.

When I butchered one Bf109G or K (don't remember exactly) from port head-on position with cannons and MGs, admin kicked me from server.

I guess I have sinked some hot-shot ace egos.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

And yes, hey Riper-Snifle, whoever says to you "well mate you know, this plane is a n00b plane" is almost certain sign that you are talking with ignorant n00b. For sure, yes there are better and worse planes in the sim, but to shot someone down you still must (spot him first) outmanouver him, position yourself in a good firing position and squeeze the trigger.
And that in this game is not easy, even if you fly ME262. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Atomic_Marten
06-21-2005, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Ranger_80:
A question to all you bomber people out there, what is the best way to get your gunnery up to spec? I can't hit anything before i get pummelled. Seems even the simplest deflection gets me all cross-eyed compared to fighters. Any advice, best planes to start shooting down?

My advice to you is to start with HE111, Bf110 or G4M rear (20mm) gunner (in Betty's ***).
With .50cal it is somewhat harder because they are not so transparent nor they leave tracers for you to correct your aim.

But *always* track fighter that is attacking you with full zoom when he is below 1k. That way you can better see your tracers and you can correct aim if neccesary.

Try setup QMB and select G4M or HE111 vs. 1 ACE Yak1B for practice. With Betty you should not have any major problems to defend yourself, but with HE111 you will need to be much more precise with gun. You can engage "level autopilot" and ensure that your bomber is heading straight and hold alt (if you engage autopilot while on gunner position, he may change course and disrupt your aim -- believe me that way he wont disrupt AI Yak's aim, only yours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif).

I would not reccomend this same tactic online versus MK108 or NS37/45. They have tremendeus fire power and it takes only few projectiles (at best) to bring you down if you do not manoeuver to make him overshoot. Even if you are crack shot, your chance then are weak. Best is to jump to pilot position and manoeuver the best way you can (hide in the cloud or fly directly in the sun online can provide much more help than friendly escort fighters -- IMO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

But anyway, don't rely too much on bomber gunnery skills online, because if you ran onto guy that knows what he is doing he will shot you down with .303s, and there is not a thing that you can do about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

EiZ0N
06-21-2005, 08:51 AM
Thanks for the info on level bombing guys, can't wait to try this out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pauldun171
06-21-2005, 10:33 AM
To really make the most of Bombing online, get a tight organized formation with other bombers, properly trim out so staying in formation is as efortless as possible. Helps to have someone in lead with bomb sight expertise.

When plane is trimmed out you can easily jump to gunner position and take out those who think approaching a bomber formation from 6 o'clock is a good idea (it's not AI sniper shooting you down...It's me). With an experienced bomber pilot taking the lead all everyone else has to do is keep in formation and hit the button when the lead say go.

I have had the best time as both participant in an organized bomb run and as a fighter attacking organized formations.

Ranger_80
06-21-2005, 09:32 PM
Thanks Atomic_Marten guess it just comes down to practise, keep checking the tracks afterwards and yep missed again - oh well back to it i guess...
cheers.

Crash_Moses
06-21-2005, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Ranger_80:
A question to all you bomber people out there, what is the best way to get your gunnery up to spec? I can't hit anything before i get pummelled. Seems even the simplest deflection gets me all cross-eyed compared to fighters. Any advice, best planes to start shooting down?

Check Out this website:

http://www.oldmanuals.com/gunnery.htm

For $15 you can get PDF versions of a ton of old WWII gunnery manuals including instructions for bomber gunners. I ordered one and it was a great read. Lotsa history and my gunnery improved significantly.