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saumon831982
05-23-2006, 02:18 AM
Mr Oleg Maddox, is it possible in a near future to have an Add-on " Battle of France 1939/1940 " ?? ( I know that it exist a developpment team for this add-on, but big silence about updates -->
http://www.battle-of-france-add-on.france-simulation.com/ )

With flyable planes like :

* Curtiss H 75 (yes, american fighter P36 used in France)
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2931/hawktaxi12qn.jpg

* Morane-Saulnier MS 406

* Morane-Saulnier MS 410

* Dewoitine D520
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4662/d520d3pv.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2522/chd5208mo.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9190/d520vol0ww.jpg

* Bloch 150 series ( 151/152/155/157 )

Bloch 152 :
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6624/mb15150ga8bm.jpg

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6928/mb15x39yq0vj.jpg

Bloch 155 :
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8535/azur086mg6aa.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/715/fot1695ab1ig.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9610/mb15523si3ge.jpg

Bloch 157 :
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1962/bloch1573view1uv7px.gif

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/620/mb1575px5wo.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1053/mb15715en5yi.jpg

* Arsenal VG-33 ( http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm )
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1333/vg33photo11gu0yz.jpg

* Arsenal VG-36
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9246/vg36014aw2fe.jpg

* Arsenal VG-39
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3707/vg3913ck7vu.jpg

* Potez 631
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/876/p63152kz.jpg

And more an more french planes (bombers, reco ... etc)

Destroyer110
05-23-2006, 03:39 AM
Totally agree with this post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


Ps don't forget Dutch planes!

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 04:09 AM
Of course ! Don't forget French, Belgian, Dutch and Polish airplanes !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Feathered_IV
05-23-2006, 04:26 AM
And don't forget the *****y little Dewoitine D500 & D510!

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Dice/2996/dewoitine-d-500.jpg

http://jnpassieux.chez-alice.fr/images/D500.jpg

http://www.odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum10/dewotine_510jpg.jpg
http://airwar.valka.cz/muzeum/francie/d_500/clipart/f_01.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/red_spain/aviones1/D-510.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 06:38 AM
If you want more informations about French airplanes in 1940 , you can read the thread on the french forum of Pacific fighters :

http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

But sorry, the tread is in french...not english ! (I'm French ... I precise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 06:45 AM
GLOIRE!

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 06:58 AM
GLOIRE = GLORY ... It is that you want say ?

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 07:01 AM
Oui!!!!

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 07:08 AM
ok Leitmotiv !

Add-on " Battle of France and Low countries" interest everybody in US and Canada, you think ??

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 07:38 AM
Add-on " Battle of France and Low countries" interest everybody in US and Canada, you think ??


Question for everybody, what is your favorite :

- french plane ? for me : Dewoitine D520 or Bloch 157 (almost a french Thunderbolt)
- dutch plane : for me : Fokker D.XXI
- belgian plane ?
- polish plane ? for me : P37 Los

Tooz_69GIAP
05-23-2006, 07:51 AM
The guys at the France Simulation site are working on content for a Battle of France add-on for the new SoW:BoB game, but I'm not sure on details except that they are in contact with 1C:MG.

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 08:08 AM
I can't speak for all Americans but I have been fascinated by the Battle of France since I was in high school forty years ago when I bought all the Heller French aircraft models! I am very fond of the MS 406 and have to admire its qualities when I fight it with a 109E---which is my only way to study it with this sim! The Bloch 152 is my other favorite. I am crazy about the LeO 451 and even the Amiot 143. The Breguet 693 is fascinating. I'd like to try to fly a Bloch 174 to Arras like St Ex! or to Berlin in the great Farman. By the way, Ernest R. May wrote a fascinating analysis of the Battle of France for the CIA titled STRANGE VICTORY. His conclusion was that the disaster was more the result of slow communications in the French high command than any other material factors---in fact, each time the French tank formations had a chance to fight the German tank formations in Belgium they smashed them badly. Fascinating read.

LEBillfish
05-23-2006, 08:16 AM
Though it most certainly was a pivotal point in the war, my question relates to how much bang for the buck you are getting for a type of plane, not the importance of a conflict.

Actually when I see plane lists, for the Germans I'm struck with a hint of "Spanish Civil War"....Yet when you consider the long time use of some of these, the He111, Ju87 and so on (though later Bf109 missing)...and then also the Hurricane and other British planes like the Blenheim(sp?).....You instantly have planes that transfer easily to other fronts.....Therefor making a foundation for future add-ons to utilize.

That said, the conflict in France, Poland and so on brief.....How many of the planes listed were utilized to the extent of the others I mentioned above?.......If they wern't, then is it the best use of time?

That's a question not a statement.....

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 08:27 AM
Yes, FRANCE is fallen in 1940 (fight only 6 weeks: 10th May to 25th June 1940).

French material was superior to the German material (maybe not with the Me 109 lol)... French Tanks (RENAULT B1 bis, SOMUA S.35, etc) were superior against German Tanks ( Pz I, II, III and IV).But french tactics was late to a war, France is stay on victory in 1918.

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
Add-on " Battle of France and Low countries" interest everybody in US and Canada, you think ??


Question for everybody, what is your favorite :

- french plane ? for me : Dewoitine D520 or Bloch 157 (almost a french Thunderbolt)
- dutch plane : for me : Fokker D.XXI
- belgian plane ?
- polish plane ? for me : P37 Los

belgian............ FIAT Cr.42 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
That said, the conflict in France, Poland and so on brief.....How many of the planes listed were utilized to the extent of the others I mentioned above?.......If they wern't, then is it the best use of time?

That's a question not a statement.....

Activité de l'armée de l'Air entre septembre 1939 et avril 1940 : (activities of the French Air Force from september 1939 to April 1940: period of "the Phoney War" )

-1906 missions de renseignement
-9358 missions de chasse
-80 victoires sres pour la chasse
-34 victoires probables pour la chasse

Pour la mªme période: (During the same period)

-MS 406: 12 abattus(down) en combat aérien, 2 non rentrés, 8 endommagés(dommaged) (combats + flak)
-Curtiss H75: 10 abattus en combats aériens, 1 endommagé
-Potez 637: 7 abattus en combat aérien, 3 abattus par la flack, 6 non rentrés de mission, 3 endommagés
-Bloch131: 1 abattus en combat aérien, 2 non rentrés de mission, 1 endommagé
-Mureaux 117: 5 abattus en combat aérien, 2 par la flak, 4 non rentrés, 3 endommagés
-Potez63.11: 1 abattu en combat, 1 endommagé
-Bloch174: 2 abattus en combat
-Bloch 200: 2 abattus par la flak, 1 non rentré
-Amiot 143: 1 abattu par la flak, 1 non rentré
-Léo 451: 1 non rentré de mission
-Potez 39: 1 endommagé

I am searching more informations about your question !!

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
That said, the conflict in France, Poland and so on brief.....How many of the planes listed were utilized to the extent of the others I mentioned above?.......If they wern't, then is it the best use of time?

That's a question not a statement.....

You can find informations --> http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_may.html

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 08:52 AM
Do not forget the sparring from September 1939 until 10 May 1940. French Hawk 75 pilots regularly beat up 109 units (see FLEDGLING EAGLES by Christopher Shores). French aircraft fought the English in Syria in 1941, the Allies in the Torch landings in 1942, and over Madagascar. The Italians used the De 520. Beyond the superficial, the Battle of France was one of the great and catastrohic events of world history---when France fell, it meant the war would last for years and that Germany would be very difficult to defeat. This was a nightmare for Western Europe and Eastern Europe. To use a time line as an absolute standard for deciding what should be in the series is absurd---why have a Battle of Britain game? The Intense fighting was only a few days over a month. A game on the Blitz makes more sense by a pure time scale selection---it lasted from Sept 1940 until May 1941. Add to the above, the French had some brilliant aircraft designs, and they would be a great addition to the series.

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Do not forget the sparring from September 1939 until 10 May 1940. French Hawk 75 pilots regularly beat up 109 units (see FLEDGLING EAGLES by Christopher Shores).QUOTE]

Yes ... during "the Phoney War" (September 1939 to April 1940), there was a special air combat between French and German : 9 french Hawk H75 against 27 german Me 109 D ... Result : almost 10 german fighters shot down by french fighters !


Order of Battle, 10th May 1940 : French Air Force

http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_may.html

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 09:02 AM
Exactly! Probably the biggest impediment to a Battle of France addition is a profound lack of knowledge of the battle in the U.S. Popular history here tends to ignore the European war until 6 June 1944.

LEBillfish
05-23-2006, 09:05 AM
I think you're missing my point.......

An early Hurricane "model" is correct to be used in absolutly every theatre both ETO/PTO from the farthest northeren reaches, to the farthests south....and were no doubt used long into the war....

So in otherwords, is not only needed for BoB, yet additional add-ons. How many of the planes you have listed fought elsewhere and for how long?

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 09:09 AM
French MS 406 was based too in Indochine ( Today Vietnam and Laos I suppose ; Indochine was a french colonie before 1954 ). This french plane has fight against japanese fighters when the japanese army move everywhere in Asia area (1941 - 1942)

jeanba2
05-23-2006, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
Yes, FRANCE is fallen in 1940 (fight only 6 weeks: 10th May to 25th June 1940).

French material was superior to the German material (maybe not with the Me 109 lol)... French Tanks (RENAULT B1 bis, SOMUA S.35, etc) were superior against German Tanks ( Pz I, II, III and IV).But french tactics was late to a war, France is stay on victory in 1918.

This is largely debatable :
The french aircraft performances were usually inferior to their german counterparts.
The french aircraft with "good performances" had either big design deficiencies (lack of armor) or had a lot of teething problems (LeO45 and Amiot 354), and usually both.


The same applies for the french tanks. For instance, the Somua had better gun and armor than the panzer III, but the latter had a radio and a 5 man crew, and for a tank, this is really what matters.
If you take a somua, and if you add 2 men and a radio, and if you also add the design requirements (enlarging the turret ...), then to keep the performances acceptable, you must reduce the gun and the armor, and you will get a panzer III (at best) !!!!

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 09:12 AM
Oui c'est vrai Jeanba2 ! I agree ! But not easy to speak correctly english ! lol

Ps : sorry for my english !


Order of Battle, 10th May 1940 : French Air Force
http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_may.html


Order of Battle, 5th June 1940 : French Air Force
http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_june.html

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 09:15 AM
Well, again, to use your standard, LEBillfish, we would have to toss out a goodly number of aircraft in the IL-S series, including, of course, the 1946 add-on, and many of your favored Japanese aircraft. The Battle of France was of immense historical importance and this is what counts.

jeanba2
05-23-2006, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:

That said, the conflict in France, Poland and so on brief.....How many of the planes listed were utilized to the extent of the others I mentioned above?.......If they wern't, then is it the best use of time?

That's a question not a statement.....
In terms of gameplay, I think that the invasion of Poland and the battle of France would be very interesting for various reasons :
1) It would be possible to play a campaign for a german, british, polish, czech ,dutch, belgian and to a lesser extent for a french pilot starting in september 1939 and finishing in december 1940

2) The invasion of the west would be a context for a lot of various situations, with both sides having the opportunity to play attack / escort / intercept missions. Some situations could be really funny such as a mission in a french Breguet chased by 109s ...

Those points are really worth spending some times on a bob addon.

LEBillfish
05-23-2006, 09:57 AM
It would all be interesting, I myself would like it all, my statement not a criticism or a statement of lack of importance, or anything negative.....

My question simple, how many were used elsewhere?.....The reason/point simple, as upon the first add-on whatever it is being we will be so limited to planes, it probably needs to be a building block for future add-ons.....IOW, something that will apply in many other regions/theatres'........A prime example would be the P40, or the Bf109-F and so on.

No moment, day, plane or person insignificant in the war.......Yet at first I suspect they'll need to add to apply over many scenario's.

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:

My question simple, how many were used elsewhere?.....The reason/point simple, as upon the first add-on whatever it is being we will be so limited to planes, it probably needs to be a building block for future add-ons.....IOW, something that will apply in many other regions/theatres'........A prime example would be the P40, or the Bf109-F and so on.

.

Ok it's just a commercial probleme in fact ?

jeanba2
05-23-2006, 10:14 AM
Ok Lebillfish, I understand, here are some example of the french aircraft used after 1940 :
The Morane 406 was used by the Finnish, the crotian, Vichy French (Madagascar, Indochina, Syria ?), free french (north Africa)
The Dewoitine by Vichy France (Torch, Syria), free france (1944), the Italian (1943 +), the Bulgarian
The Potez was used by the romanian, the greek, vichy france (same as Morane), free france (same as Morane)
The LeO45 was used by the German (transp´rt aircraft) and Vichy france (same as dewoitine)
The Bloch 151 was used by the greek

you can add the Hawk and Maryland, by various countries.

Roughly speaking, a lot of aircraft from this addon can be reused for a Mediterranean addon at least.

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by jeanba2:
Ok sorry :
The Morane 406 was used by the Finnish, the crotian, Vichy French (Madagascar, Indochina, Syria ?), free french (north Africa)
The Dewoitine by Vichy France (Torch, Syria), free france (1944), the Italian (1943 +), the Bulgarian
The Potez was used by the romanian, the greek, vichy france (same as Morane), free france (same as Morane)
The LeO45 was used by the German (transp´rt aircraft) and Vichy france (same as dewoitine)
The Bloch 151 was used by the greek

you can add the Hawk and Maryland, by various countries.

Jeanba2 , you have forget for the Dewoitine D 520 that it was used too by Germans like trainer to prepare fighters pilots. Agree?

jeanba2
05-23-2006, 10:20 AM
Jeanba2 , you have forget for the Dewoitine D 520 that it was used too by Germans like trainer to prepare fighters pilots. Agree?
I don't care, I never play training missions.

I can also add the Late 298, the Bloch 17? family, the Farman 22? family ...

saumon831982
05-23-2006, 10:25 AM
ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif no probleme. lol

Images of Dewoitine D520 under German et Bulgarian Colors.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6964/sanstitre5ue.png
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4391/s49031rl.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It would all be interesting, I myself would like it all, my statement not a criticism or a statement of lack of importance, or anything negative.....

My question simple, how many were used elsewhere?.....The reason/point simple, as upon the first add-on whatever it is being we will be so limited to planes, it probably needs to be a building block for future add-ons.....IOW, something that will apply in many other regions/theatres'........A prime example would be the P40, or the Bf109-F and so on.

No moment, day, plane or person insignificant in the war.......Yet at first I suspect they'll need to add to apply over many scenario's.

actually i think Maddox will go to some 1941/42 and perhaps 43 Channel front free Updates....
and than move on to a to-pay-AdOn about the MTO.

lot of stuff from the channel could be used, with slightly modifications (dust filters), can be used there.

the Battle of France, as interesting it would be (!), well, if the 3.Party guys will not be ready with their stuff - i doubt we will see it.

and as much worked it is to modell for BoB (much more than for IL2, and even that needed much time !) they should concentrate on some main planes and stuff (tanks, cars)....
as french flyables perhaps only:
MS406 - most used fighter
Hawk 75A-3 - very succesfull
Breguet 693 or Potez 63.11 - ground assault plane
LeO 451 - modern medium bomber

BUT its their free time, they have the choice............

Dimensionaut_
05-23-2006, 11:15 AM
My question simple, how many were used elsewhere?.....The reason/point simple, as upon the first add-on whatever it is being we will be so limited to planes, it probably needs to be a building block for future add-ons.....IOW, something that will apply in many other regions/theatres'........A prime example would be the P40, or the Bf109-F and so on.

No moment, day, plane or person insignificant in the war.......Yet at first I suspect they'll need to add to apply over many scenario's.

Commercailly the Battle of France and Low Countries add-on is not popular with everyone. Many US citizens will not want it for it's aircraft.
But the terrain will be instersting for other campaigns. Like D-day and the road to Germany in 1944.
And did you think about the Netherlands? All bombers on their way to the German cities had to cross it. Thousands of aircraft were shot there. fighters, and bombers, Lancasters and B-17's, you name it.

The people working on the Battle of France add-on all ready have researched a lot of this. Complete staff maps are available, both hardcopy and digitized.

I'll be honest: my dream is to see some Dutch aircraft. and I'll like the French as well.
Sure I like the Spit and the Mustang, but nearly every sim has them (won't discuss quality of sims here, I bet we all agree on which is the best). The chance to try other aircraft was what appealed me to FB, and I see it the same for a Battle of France add-on.
And maybe to make a commercial succesfull add-on it might have to be combined with a "Liberation of Western Europe" add-on. The terrain is the same anyway. Only locations and status of airfields will differ.

And that brings me to two of my wishes for BoB:
Selection of year for the terrian which enables and disables airfields and make some of them concrete aifields instead of grassland (modernized by the Germans during the course of war).

And a second thing I think is important is this:
BoB should be able to detect which add-ons are installed.
When a server hosts a game with some terrain and an aircraft setting enabled, then it should broadcast "basic BoB plus add-on X and Y are required" Then everyone with all needed add-ons can log on to that game.
But if the same server hosts again in a planeset of basic BoB then it should broadcast "basic BoB required" and people with only the basic game should be able to log on, even when the host of the game has all (other) add-ons installed and the users logging in not.
I won't say that will be easy to make, but I think something like this will be the basic for a good flexible add-on system.
That is the only way how people from Poland can have their add-on, people from France theirs, and US people none, and all will still be able to play with eachother.

leitmotiv
05-23-2006, 10:51 PM
D.XXI and G-1A!!!!

Gitano1979
05-24-2006, 03:29 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

these early stages of the WW2 are very interesting in terms of planes and scenarios. Look at this link about Dutch planes:

http://members.tripod.lycos.nl/DeeJay/luvaeng.html

Though i'm italian, i think that Italian planes flyable in BOB (CR42, BR20, G50) should appear in this add-on, cause they partecipated to the short but fierce battles between France and Italy in June 1940, or better in a MTO add-on...

RCAF_Irish_403
05-24-2006, 03:37 AM
Bring on the French birds... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

AWL_Spinner
05-24-2006, 04:12 AM
I'd be in early war cr@p plane heaven with this period and sincerely hope it's included.

Indeed, the very early war stuff is a classic "Forgotten Battle" and from Spain to the phoney war and France would be a fascinating inclusion (and, as pointed out, the maps would be invaluable later on).

From the RAF side - battle of France needs early Hurri (different prop / armor) and the Fairey Battle.

saumon831982
05-24-2006, 04:15 AM
Sorry, it's in French :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataille_de_France
http://www.secondeguerre.net/articles/evenements/ou/40/ev_campagnefrance.html

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/histoire-militaire/aviation/batailledefrance.htm

Tooz_69GIAP
05-24-2006, 05:58 AM
The war didn't start in the Summer of 1940 over the Channel - *officially* the war began with Operation Weisse on 1st Septmber 1939 with the invasion of Poland. Why wouldn't we want to try and recreate this with having content covering this operation, and the Battle of France, before we start flying over them thar white cliffs?

I for one would love to see the Battle of France, and the Polish campaign covered in the upcoming series!

saumon831982
05-24-2006, 06:18 AM
French ground assault plane : <span class="ev_code_RED">Bréguet 693</span>

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4958/breouip2db8yw.jpg

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5564/breguet693017mh3wp.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7997/br693entrainement9ou4yq.jpg

Armor :
1 x Gun Hispano-Suiza HS 404 of 20 mm
4 x machine gun MAC of 7,5 mm (2 in noze and 2 for the gunner)
Bomb: 400 kg

Beautiful http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif ... isn't it ?

JG53Frankyboy
05-24-2006, 07:13 AM
yep, fantastic ground assault plane !
but AFAIK the Potez 63.11 was much more common !? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

saumon831982
05-24-2006, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
yep, fantastic ground assault plane !
but AFAIK the Potez 63.11 was much more common !? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bréguet 693 and Potez 63.11 have the same motor groups (2 x Gnome & Rh´ne 14 M of 700 hp)... but Potez 63.11 was a reconnaissance plane only.

saumon831982
05-24-2006, 07:50 AM
Image of Potez 63.11 (reconnaissance plane):

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1867/potez6311i0yo.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4931/p63119wr.jpg

soloje
05-24-2006, 08:17 AM
if you are interested by technical data about plane used by french ari force during the BoF look in this chart below
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/soloje/D520/tab_avion40.jpg

translation of the name of column

avion = plane
moteur= engine
puissance = power Hp
poids vide= empty weight
poids de combat= mission weight
armements= armament/ weapon
vitesse max = max speed
vit.max au sol= maw speed sea level
surface ailaire= wingspan
vitesse ascensionnelle= climb rate

Chasse = fighters

saumon831982
05-24-2006, 08:29 AM
Another french plane : Loire-Nieuport 401/411 (french dive bomber)

http://www.histaviation.com/Loire-Nieuport_LN_40_LN_401_LN_411_LN_42.html (in english)

Interesting no? wings are like german plane Stuka !

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/384/azur073ze3rj.jpg

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/9600/image4gx.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1050/ln401d4rj2xy.gif

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7514/ln411bt8er.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4646/ln411i3vy1zt.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
05-24-2006, 08:50 AM
This is all great stuff, thanks for posting! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-24-2006, 12:32 PM
Rola's BoB 1939 Polish addon website is gone. So, no Polish addon for BoB And Beyond?

Rola *poof* gone ~~> http://www.9-1939.pl/

BirdieNum-nums
05-24-2006, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by saumon831982:
French ground assault plane : <span class="ev_code_RED">Bréguet 693</span>

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4958/breouip2db8yw.jpg

Yes, this indeed one of, if not THE coollest French plane ever. I'd love to see a French add-on. Especially since this battle has yet to be done by a flight sim.

Cheers,
Birdie Num-nums a.k.a. The Jabberwocky

ForkTailedDevil
05-24-2006, 09:37 PM
I am an American and I would love a French & Low countries add-on. I would happily pay for this oppurtunity. Any person who says they love aircraft from WW2 should also.

leitmotiv
05-25-2006, 03:16 AM
I am a Yank and I completely agree with ForkTailedDevil.

saumon831982
05-25-2006, 03:52 AM
Dutch airplanes :

Fokker D.XXI

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8869/dxxime109dogfv00601260xb.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/291/the20beach1ip.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6347/dxxismokev00100989se.jpg

Fokker G.1A

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2143/g1000278rd.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7681/wires9qp.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5685/comic7zg.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1276/fly20blue9lo.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3034/g1greysky01267fm.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3569/g1soloskyb2v0080279c9fb.jpg


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif isn't it ?

Gros_boulet
05-25-2006, 09:03 AM
I also support the idea for that addon... but of course being Belgian, my opinion is biased... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

For the Belgians, well the hurricane Mk1 (2 blades propeller version), the CR42, the Gladiator will already be in BoB (hopefully all flyable...). You "just" have to add the Fairey Battle (also used by the RAF in France) and the Fairey Fox (or the Renard 31) for scouting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lets hope that this project will see the light one day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

NB: the guy who modelled the dutch aircraft you showed should be hired immidiately! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

269GA-Veltro
05-25-2006, 09:08 AM
BoF would be a great addition to the BoB, btw...i'm sure one day we'll see at least this beauty in the BoB addons (MTO...i hope).

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4662/d520d3pv.jpg

GerritJ9
05-25-2006, 05:06 PM
Missing from that list of French fighters is the Koolhoven FK.58, 18 of which were used by exiled Polish pilots to defend Metz.

saumon831982
05-26-2006, 10:37 AM
The Koolhoven FK.58 is an Dutch plane ( build in Holland but buy by French : only 18 planes used in France and not in first line combat).

The planes were used by exiled Polish pilots to defend Salon-de-Provence near Marseille (no Metz)

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4401/fk5833pq.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1351/fk5818ko.gif

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2020/fk5846ef.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9328/fk5875mu.jpg

Gandy_Katarin
05-26-2006, 02:22 PM
BUMP

This addon cannot be over looked. This would mean awesome missions flying from southern english bases to northern france, using french airfields for the day then flying back to england on a night after fighting all day. And ofcourse dunkirk, it was the first time the Luftwaffe came across spitfires in numbers! This addon would be essential for any Battle of Britain game.

I dont mean to sound harsh but if the US would not be interested in this then it should be a europe only release because these were very important times in european history!

GerritJ9
05-26-2006, 03:05 PM
I was wrong about Metz regarding the FK.58, my apologies. However, William Green mentions the following about the 18 French FK.58s in "Warplanes of the Second World War: Fighters Volume 3" on page 112:
"Four F.K.58s protected Caen, six protected Clermont-Ferrand, two protected Salon, and others protected Cognac and La Rochelle. However, there is no record of their subsequent operational activities." So they MIGHT have seen action..... or not.
If we have the MiG-3U in the sim, a very rare bird, why not 18 FK.58s in BoB? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

saumon831982
05-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
I was wrong about Metz regarding the FK.58, my apologies. However, William Green mentions the following about the 18 French FK.58s in "Warplanes of the Second World War: Fighters Volume 3" on page 112:
"Four F.K.58s protected Caen, six protected Clermont-Ferrand, two protected Salon, and others protected Cognac and La Rochelle. However, there is no record of their subsequent operational activities." So they MIGHT have seen action..... or not.
If we have the MiG-3U in the sim, a very rare bird, why not 18 FK.58s in BoB? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree .. I just forgot the others cities like : Caen, Clermont-Ferrand ...etc.
I think for the FK.58 no contact with bombers and fighters of Luftwaffe , fortunately because the FK.58 was a plane with the poor performances, it was intended only for the French colonies to Asia.

About add-on "BOF and low countries", that would be already so much well to have the
principal French planes of the period 1939/1940!! isn't it ??

Bremspropeller
05-27-2006, 01:46 PM
I hope you guys succeed !

BoF would be a kick-*** scenario, AFAIK it has never been featured in a flight-sim before http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Keep on the great work ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

GerritJ9
05-27-2006, 02:38 PM
The D.520 is a definite must-have for such an add-on since it was the best French fighter then in service. I don't know if there are enough cockpit references to make it possible to model its interior though, so that may be a problem- possibly an AI only. The MS.406 would also be a must and since there is at least one still in existence in Switzerland if I'm not mistaken, it should be possible to model a cockpit fairly accurately. There may also be one in Finland but I have no info on this.
The Hawk 75A-3 should also be doable as a flyable since a flying example exists.
And of course such oddballs such as the Caudron C.714 which could also be used for Finland since six served with the Finnish air force (as many as the MiG-3U with the VVS).

EDCF_Rama
05-27-2006, 03:04 PM
There are lots of references for the D520 (including the factory plans), and enough to built a cockpit.
For the MB152, there are also a lot of references, but owned by a private group.
For the MS406, it is more tricky... the switz one is in fact a switz built D3801, with different engine, different radiator system (fixed one)... and totally different cockpit (so unusable).
... but stills there should be enough references to built a cockpit.

VW-IceFire
05-27-2006, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Though it most certainly was a pivotal point in the war, my question relates to how much bang for the buck you are getting for a type of plane, not the importance of a conflict.

Actually when I see plane lists, for the Germans I'm struck with a hint of "Spanish Civil War"....Yet when you consider the long time use of some of these, the He111, Ju87 and so on (though later Bf109 missing)...and then also the Hurricane and other British planes like the Blenheim(sp?).....You instantly have planes that transfer easily to other fronts.....Therefor making a foundation for future add-ons to utilize.

That said, the conflict in France, Poland and so on brief.....How many of the planes listed were utilized to the extent of the others I mentioned above?.......If they wern't, then is it the best use of time?

That's a question not a statement.....
I know what your getting at. The very least we can do with these aircraft outside of the primary theater is with the Dewontine D.520 which was used by Vichy France. I believe these D.520s were used against Spitfire Vc's during 1942 in the Mediteranian...seeing as we're going to be headed that way officially the D.520 would be a great unofficial help.

The Moraine-Saulnier were used by the Finnish air force so thats also useful.

soloje
05-28-2006, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
There are lots of references for the D520 (including the factory plans), and enough to built a cockpit.
.

I confirm all references needed for D520 are available design and technical data.

JG53Frankyboy
05-28-2006, 04:50 AM
well, than............... you "only" need some talented people who are modelling it in BoB standarts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gitano1979
05-28-2006, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by 269GA-Veltro:
BoF would be a great addition to the BoB, btw...i'm sure one day we'll see at least this beauty in the BoB addons (MTO...i hope).

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4662/d520d3pv.jpg

Some D520's were used also by Regia Aeronautica...

DIRTY-MAC
05-28-2006, 05:52 AM
Was going to post a complete list of french planes used during WWII as by wich country and were, but after sitting for an hour to wright it down, I got a post reply error and it all dissapeared http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
and im not happy to do it again,
but I can tell you that almost everyone of the major types were used also in the Med
and some on the eastern front, there is also some operating in the far east and pacific

DIRTY-MAC
05-28-2006, 06:51 AM
DURING the Battle of France in May-June 1940, French Army commanders complained that German aircraft attacked their troops without interference by the French Air Force. French generals and statesmen begged the British to send more Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter squadrons to France. Reporters on the scene confirmed the German domination of the skies, and the overwhelming numerical superiority of the Luftwaffe came to be accepted as one of the principal causes of the French collapse.1

The air force was a convenient scapegoat for the French Army generals who dominated the Vichy regime that ruled France under the Germans. By attributing the defeat of French forces to weakness in the air, the army officers diverted attention from their own failures. Moreover, the Vichy leaders were able to strengthen their claim to legitimacy by blaming the parliamentary regime they had supplanted for failing to provide a sufficient number of aircraft. The Vichy leaders also reproached the British for holding the bulk of their air force in the British Isles. Concurrently, the Vichy army officers used the defeat of the air force to justify abolishing the air ministry and the air force general staff, incorporating their functions into the war ministry and army general staff and returning the air force to its former status as a branch of the army. With the army controlling the postwar sources of information, for many years there was no voice to challenge the official position that France had lost the war because the prewar politicians had not equipped the air force adequately.

Since the mid-1960s, fragments of information--aviator's memoirs, production reports, aircraft inventories, and Anglo-French correspondence--have come to light. These sources reveal four new facts about the French Air Force.

The French aviation industry (with modest assistance--about 15 percent-from American and Dutch producers) had produced enough modern combat aircraft (4360) by May 1940 to defeat the Luftwaffe, which fielded a force of 3270.2
The French planes were comparable in combat capability and performance to the German aircraft.
The French had only about one-fourth of their modern combat aircraft in operational formations on the Western Front on 10 May 1940.3
The Royal Air Force stationed a larger proportion (30 percent) of its fighter force in France than the French committed from their own resources (25 percent).4
These data exculpate the prewar parliamentary regime and the British. They raise questions about the leadership of an air force that had parity in numbers of aircraft, the aid of a powerful ally, the latest radar, and the most advanced aviation technology in Europe, yet lost a defensive battle over its own territory.5

French Aviation Technology
between the Wars
The French aviation industry built more warplanes during the interwar period than any of its foreign competitors. The Breguet 19 bomber of 1922 (1500 built) and the Potez 25 army cooperation aircraft of 1925 (3500 built) were the most widely used military aircraft in the world. (No more than 700 examples of any other type of military aircraft were built in any country during the interwar period.) One Breguet 19 flew across the Atlantic in 1927; a group of thirty Potez 25s circumnavigated Africa in 1933.6

French bombers were consistently and technically excellent. The Lioré et Olivier 20 of 1924 was the fastest medium bomber in the world for three years, and it gave birth to a half -dozen derivative designs. The Potez 542 of 1934 was the fastest bomber in Europe until 1936. In 1935, the Amiot 143, which equipped eighteen squadrons, carried a two-ton bomb load at 190 mph at 25,920 feet. Its German contemporary, the Dornier Do 23G, carried half the bomb load thirty miles per hour slower at 13,780 feet. During the following year, the Bloch 210, with a service ceiling of 32,480 feet, began to equip what would ultimately be twenty-four squadrons. No foreign bomber built before 1939 reached 30,000 feet.

The Farman 222 of 1936 was the. first modern four-engine heavy bomber. Production models reached operational units at the same time that the service test examples (Y1B-17) of the Boeing Flying Fortress were delivered and two years ahead of the production version(B-17B). Typical performance envelopes--5510 pounds of bombs, 1240 miles, at 174 mph for the Farman, versus 2400 pounds of bombs, 1500 miles, at 238 mph for the YIB-17--showed the designs to be technically comparable, with the French emphasizing loadcarrying and the Americans emphasizing speed. Design evolution of the two types tended to increase the speed of the Farman derivatives (to 239 mph for the model 223.4 of 1939) and the load-carrying capacity of the Boeing (to 4000 pounds of bombs, 1850 miles at 211 mph for the B-17G of 1943). Neither design was capable of long-range daylight bombing operations in its 1940 form. The Farman was used exclusively for night raids.

The Lioré et Olivier 451, at 307 mph, and the Amiot 354, at 298 mph, were the fastest medium bombers during the opening phases of World War II, outpacing the 1940 operational versions of the German Schnellbomber types--the Dornier Do 17K (255 mph), Heinkel He 111E (261 mph), and Junkers Ju 88A (292 mph). The Bloch 174 reconnaissance bomber of 1940 was, in operational configuration, the fastest multiengine aircraft in the world (329 mph).

French fighter aircraft held eleven out of the twenty-two world airspeed records set between the wars, and seven were held by one aircraft--the Nieuport-Delage 29 fighter of 1921. The Gourdou-Leseurre 32 monoplane fighter of 1924 was the world's fastest operational fighter until 1928, when the Nieuport-Delage 62 overtook it. In 1934, the Dewoitine 371 held the honor; and in 1936, the Dewoitine 510 was the first operational fighter to reach 250 mph.7 The Dewoitine 501 of 1935 was the first fighter to mount a cannon that would fire through the propeller hub. The French fighters in action during 1939-40 were extremely maneuverable, powerfully armed, and able to outfight the Messerschmitt Bf 109E and Bf 110C, as well as the German bombers.

Only in the summer of 1938 did the air ministry begin awarding contracts of sufficient size to warrant the construction of facilities for mass production of aircraft and engines. Concurrently, the French government began a program of funding the expansion of production facilities in the United States to produce Curtiss fighters, Douglas light bombers, Martin light bombers, Pratt and Whitney engines, and Allison engines. By May 1940, French manufacturers were producing 619 combat aircraft per month, American firms were adding 170 per month against French orders, and the British were producing 392 fighters per month. German production of combat aircraft, averaging 622 per month during 1940, was little more than half that of the industries supporting the Allies.8 The traditional explanation of the French defeat in terms of inadequate supplies of aircraft and aircraft that were inferior in quality does not stand up. The psychological and political milieu in which the air force evolved during the interwar years offers more substantive bases for understanding what happened to the French Air Force.

Interservice and
Civil-Military Political Issues
The French Air Force was born, grew, and went into combat in an atmosphere of political intrigue. Air force officers were embroiled in three internecine struggles concurrently throughout the interwar period: animosity between the political left and the regular army that had begun before 1800; bureaucratic strife between army officers and aviators about the control of aviation resources, which began during the First World War; and a pattern of coercion and deceit between leaders of the air force and politicians--who, in the late 1920s, began to use the service for political ends.

At the core of French civil-military relations for the past two centuries had been fear on the part of the political left of repression by the regular army. The regular army had repressed leftist uprisings in bloody confrontations in 1789-90, 1848, and 187 1. It had supported rightwing coups d'état in 1799 and 1851, and a possible coup by General Georges Boulanger had alarmed the politicians in 1889. One of the principal issues in the Dreyfus Affair of 1894-1906 was the claim by the army that the word of its officers was not subject to question by civilian authority. The politicians prevailed over the officers and seized every opportunity to weaken and humiliate them. The Combes and the Clemenceau governments in 1905-07 forced Catholic officers to supervise the seizure of church property, degraded them in the order of precedence, and appointed a Dreyfusard general as minister of war. A right-of-center government in 1910 used the regular army to crush striking railway workers, confirming the leftists' perceptions of the army as their enemy. In 1914, a central tenet of the Socialist program was replacement of the regular army with a popular militia. The left won the election of 1914 but could not enact its program because war began two months later. During the war, the generals assumed extraordinary power and robbed the left of its electoral victory. But in 1924, the left again won control of the government and moved swiftly against the regular army. A series of laws in 1927-28 reduced the army from a combat force to a training establishment, a 1931 law mandated laying off 20 percent of the regular officers, and two laws (1928 and 1933) amputated military aviation from the army and navy and set it up as a separate service. Though there were logical arguments favoring an independent air force, the move was primarily a demonstration of the politicians' power over the military leaders.

The aviators' welcomed the politicians' support because they had been struggling with officers of the ground arms since 1917 concerning the appropriate role for military aviation. The flyers saw aviation as most effective when employed in mass to strike at decisive points designated by the commander in chief, but each army general wanted a squadron under his direct orders. The aviators had achieved their objective, on paper, in the organization of the 1st Aviation Division in April 1918. The division was a powerful striking force of twenty-four fighter squadrons and fifteen bomber squadrons--585 combat aircraft. It could deploy rapidly to widely separated sectors and apply substantial combat power in support of the ground forces. However, the ground commanders in whose sector the 1st Aviation Division operated used the force primarily as a pool of extra fighter planes to protect their observation aircraft.9

The aviators' ability to influence the development and employment of their branch was limited by their junior status. The commanders of brigades, escadres (wings), and groups in the 1st Aviation Division were lieutenants or captains appointed as acting majors; and the divisional commander during the war was only a colonel. In the postwar army, major commands went to nonflying generals and colonels from the infantry, cavalry, or artillery. Having tasted senior command responsibility during the war with only eight to ten years of service, the leading aviators were impatient for promotion; but the structure of their branch under the army offered few positions for officers above the rank of captain (serving as commanders of squadrons, units comprising ten to twelve aircraft in peacetime).

The formation in 1928 of an air ministry independent of the ministry of war offered the aviators a separate promotion list, the opportunity to organize the air force as they saw fit, and an air force general staff to make policy. The aviators lost no time in reorganizing to create additional positions for field grade and general officers. Between 1926 and 1937, the number of squadrons rose from 124 to 134, while the number of grouses (commanded by majors) rose from 52 to 67. The fifteen aviation regiments, formations composed of several groups, were converted to thirty escadres, each having only two groups. The number of command positions for colonels was thereby doubled. The senior aviation commands-two air divisions in 1926-were changed to four air regions in 1932 and to two air corps and six air divisions in 1937. In addition, eight army aviation commands (headed by brigadier generals) and twenty-six corps aviation commands (headed by colonels or lieutenant colonels) would come into being upon mobilization. Having created an abundance of positions for senior officers, the air ministry accelerated the promotion process: In the army, the average time in service for fast-track officers to reach major was sixteen years; colonel, twenty-six years; and brigadier general, thirty years. In the air force after 1928, these averages fell to thirteen, nineteen, and twenty-two years.10

The question of aviation policy was not so easy to control. The army and the navy had fought the creation of the air ministry and the independent air force with sufficient vigor to retain operational control of 118 of the 134 combat squadrons. The air force officers were responsible for training, administering, and commanding the air force in time of peace; but in wartime, only sixteen squadrons of bombers would remain under the air force chain of command.

Many aviators saw the primary role of the air force as close support of the ground forces--observation, liaison, and attack of targets on the battlefield. The French had developed close support techniques during the First World War (1914-18 ) and had refined them during the war against the Rif rebellion in Morocco in 1925. In Morocco, aviators flying in support of mobile ground forces perfected the use of aviation for fire support, flank protection, pursuit of a beaten enemy, battlefield resupply, and aeromedical evacuation." But many air force officers sought a broader mission for their service.

Aviators who were impatient with the close support mission-because it enta, 'led the subordination of aviation to the army-gradually gained ascendancy on the air force general staff. In 1932, General Giulio Douhet's concepts of strategic aerial warfare were translated into French with a laudatory preface by Marshal Henri Petain.12To placate the politically powerful army general staff, air force doctrine prescribed that the entire air force should be capable of participating in the land battle. But the aircraft the air staff sought to procure were the type Douhet had described as battleplanes--large, heavily armed machines designed to be capable of bombing, reconnaissance, and aerial combat. These were clearly intended for longrange bombing, not close support. The air staff claimed that such aircraft could support the land battle, but the army staff was skeptical. The army had sufficient influence to continue to dictate air force procurement policy until the beginning of 1936. In January of that year, the air force had 2162 first-line aircraft. Of these, 1368 (63 percent) were observation and reconnaissance planes dedicated to the army, and 437 (20 percent) were fighters dedicated to protecting the observation planes.13

In 1934-36, the tension between the army and the air force surfaced in a series of incidents. During a command post exercise in 1934, the army called for attack of battlefield targets; the air force protested that technical problems and limited resources made it impossible to meet the army's demands. The army appealed to the Supreme War Committee, which ruled that the air force should be responsive to the ground commanders and that there was no need for a supreme air commander. In 1935 during joint army-navy maneuvers, the army called for an air attack on motorized columns. The air force responded after a long delay with a strike by heavy twin-engined Bloch 200 battleplanes flying at treetop level. The umpires declared the aircraft to have been wiped out.14 The air force had no aircraft suitable for the attack of battlefield targets, and the air staff on several occasions declined to consider proposals for dive bombers or assault aircraf t on the grounds that the attack of battlefield targets was contrary to air force policy.15

The strategic bombing enthusiasts found their advocate in Pierre Cot, air minister from June 1936 until January 1938. Cot tripled the bomber force by organizing five new bomber escadres, converting seven of the twelve observation and reconnaissance escadres to bomber escadres, and equipping four of the five remaining reconnaissance escadres with aircraft capable of long-range bombing. The observation mission, except in the colonies, was turned over to the air force reserve so that the maximum number of regular air force units could participate in the strategic bombing mission.16 (See Table I.)

Table I. Strength of the French Air Force by Branch and Year (squadrons fully organized and equipped) May
Branch 1920 1926 1932 1938 1940
Fighter 83 32 37 42 67
Bomber 32 32 27 66 66
Observation and
Reconnaissance 145 60 46 26* 30 (plus 47
Reserve

Totals 260 124 110 134 163 (plus 47
Reserve)**

*Sixteen reconnaissance squadrons were equipped with battleplanes to participate in the long-range bombing mission.
**Of these, twenty-one fighter, forty-four bomber, six reconnaissance, and eleven reserve observation squadrons were fully organized but were reequipping in May 1940.
Cot's all-out support of strategic bombing met some opposition in the Superior Air Council--the seven or eight senior generals in the air force. To facilitate acceptance of his program, Cot convinced the parliament to pass a law reducing the mandatory retirement age limits for each grade by five years. This move forced all of the members of the Superior Air Council into retirement and removed 40 percent of the other officers as well. Cot filled the vacancies by promoting NCOs and calling reserve officers to active duty--men he believed were more amenable to his new programs of political indoctrination.17 His purges and the sudden promotion of strategic bombing enthusiasts generated a crisis of morale in the officer corps. The crisis was exacerbated rather than alleviated when Guy La Chambre replaced Cot in 1938, because the new air minister conducted his own purge--of the men whom Cot had promoted. La Chambre denounced strategic bombing and directed the air force to prepare to provide close support to the army. Following these developments, the air force leaders perceived the government as an adversary, as well as the army. They began a practice of ignoring governmental policies and deceiving the air minister and the parliament while pursuing narrowly institutional interests.

The struggle for independence occupied the energies and attention of the air staff so completely that they neglected to develop fully the ground observer corps; command, control, and communications systems; and airfield facilities.19 Because they were preparing to wage a defensive aerial battle over their own territory, the French aviators could have prepared these elements in peacetime, but they were still in a rudimentary state in 1940. During the battle, the French had difficulty tracking and intercepting intruders, were unable to mass units and consequently suffered unduly heavy losses, and achieved an operational availability rate only one-fourth that of Luftwaffe units.

Possibly because of their disenchantment with the government for using their service as a political toy, the aviators were unable or unwilling to believe that they might be provided with more than a handful of additional aircraft. Thus, when the director of aircraft production advised General Vuillemin, the chief of the air force, in January 1939 that 370 to 600 aircraft per month would come from French factories in 1940, the general said the air force required only 40 to 60. There were not enough aircrews or ground crews for a larger number, and to expand the training program would require the efforts of the entire strength of the air force. In March, Vuillemin agreed to accept 330 aircraft per month. However, even by using forty- to forty-five-year-old reservists to fly in first-line combat units, he could not fully man his units after mobilization.20 The availability of aircrews became the limiting factor on the number of units that Vuillemin could field, and the physical capacities of his aging pilots became the limiting factor on how frequently the aircraft would fly.

To keep from being buried under the flood of aircraft pouring from the factories, the air staff imposed multiple requirements for modifications, conducted complex acceptance inspections, and kept key components (guns, propellers, and radios) separated from the aircraft on which they were to be installed. Aircraft newly arrived from America were let in their crates. Still the air force received many more aircraft than it could man, and the air staff had to conceal the surfeit from prying parliamentary eyes by dispersing brand-new, combat-ready planes to remote airfields far from the battle zone.21

As a consequence of the political struggles between the officer corps and the political left, between the army and the air force, and between the air force and the government, the French Air Force entered combat with an incomplete ground infrastructure, insufficient personnel to man its aircraft, and a doctrine so completely at variance with the army's doctrine that the two services were destined to fight largely independent wars.

The Battle of France:
10 May-25 June 1940
The French faced the German invasion with 4360 modern combat aircraft and with 790 new machines arriving from French and American factories each month. However, the air force was not organized for battle. The regular air force had only half again as many units as during its peacetime nadir in 1932. As the battle opened, 119 of 210 squadrons were ready for action on the decisive northeastern front. The others were reequipping or stationed in the colonies. The 119 squadrons could bring into action only one-fourth of the aircraft available. These circumstances put the Allied air forces in a position of severe numerical inferiority vis- -vis the Luftwaffe. (See Table II.) Qualitatively, however, the French pilots and aircraft proved to be more effective than their adversaries.

Table II. Modern Combat Aircraft Deployed on the Western Front, 10 May 194022

Type
French
British
Belgian,
and Dutch
Combined
German

Fighters 583 197 780 1264
Bombers 84 192 276 1504
Reconnaissance
and Observation 458 96 554 502

Totals 1125 485 1610 3270

The fighter units on the northeastern front were equipped exclusively with machines built within the preceding eighteen months. The American-made Curtiss 75A fighter joined French squadrons beginning in March 1939. It was the most effective type in its class in combat over France until the Dewoitine D520 became operational in mid-May 1940. Eight squadrons equipped with the Curtiss 75A shot down 220 German aircraft (confirmed kills), losing only thirty-three pilots. In seven aerial battles in which the Curtiss fighters were engaged with Messerschmitts, the total score was twenty-seven Bf 109Es and six Bf 110Cs destroyed for three of the French aircraft.23

The Morane-Saulnier MS 406 equipped eighteen squadrons in France on 10 May 1940. The kill-loss ratio for units flying the MS 406 was 191 to 89. The shortcomings of the Morane fighter compared to the Bf 109E have been the topic of many memoirs, but in the reported battles in which Messerschmitts faced Moranes alone, the French posted a record of thirty-one kills and five losses. Both the Morane and the Messerschmitt were designed to met specifications issued in 1934, prototypes flew in 1935, and quantity production began in 1938. The Messerschmitt design was better suited for evolutionary development, and the Bf 109E-3 model of December 1939 was superior to the Morane. (See Table III.) During the Battle of France, the air staff converted twelve squadrons equipped with Moranes to other types as rapidly as training facilities permitted. This policy marginally increased the efficiency of the individual units, but it acted to decrease the effectiveness of the fighter force as a whole by taking combat-experienced squadrons out of the line at a critical time. Further, it failed to capitalize on new production to increase the size of the fighter force.

Table III. Comparative Characteristics of Fighter Aircraft in the Battle of France25

Country Type Horse-
power Speed (mph) at
Best Altitude (ft) Service
Ceiling (ft) Armament
France Curtiss 75A-3 1200 311 at 10,000 33,700 six 7.5-mm
France Dewoitine 520 910 329 at 19,685 36,090 one 20-mm
four 7.5-mm
France Morane 406 860 302 at 16,400 30,840 one 20-mm
two 7.5-mm
France Bloch 152 1100 320 at 13,120 32,800 two 20-mm
two 7.5-mm
England Hawker Hurricane I 1030 324 at 16,250 34,200 eight 7.7-mm
Germany Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3 1175 348 at 14,560 34,450 two 20-mm
two 7.9-mm

Another fighter designed to meet the same specification as the MS 406 was the Bloch MB 150. Though it lost out in the procurement competition to the Morane, the Bloch firm developed the basic design around a more powerful engine. The resulting Bloch MB 152 was faster and more powerfully armed than the MS 406. Twelve squadrons had Bloch fighters on 10 May 1940, and six more became operational with them during the battle. Units while equipped with Blochs shot down 156 German planes and lost 59 pilots.24

The first two squadrons equipped with the fast and agile Dewoitine 520 entered the battle on 13 May; eight others completed conversion training and became operational before the armistice. Between them, they shot down 175 enemy aircraft for a loss of 44 aviators. Polish pilots manned two squadrons of Caudron C 714 fighters. The ultralight Caudron (3086 pounds, empty) was capable of 302 mph with a 450-horsepower engine. Becoming operational on 2 June, the Poles shot down seventeen German aircraft and lost five pilots before their unit was disbanded on 17 June.

The French fighter force had available to it during the battle more than 2900 modern aircraft. At no time did it have more than one-fifth of these deployed against the Germans. The operational rate of the fighter force was 0.9 sorties per aircraft per day at the height of the battle. (German fighter units flew up to four sorties per aircraft per day.) Yet in spite of committing only a minor portion of its resources at a low usage rate, the fighter force accounted for between 600 and 1000 of the 1439 German aircraft destroyed during the battle.

The bulk of the published commentary on the French bomber force has focused on the fact that eight squadrons of Amiot 143M twin-engine medium bombers remained in the French order of battle. Designed in 1931 and manufactured between 1935 and 1937, the Amiot 143M by 1940 had been left behind by the rapid evolution of aviation technology. Critics of the prewar regime and apologists for the air force have drawn attention to this aircraft to highlight the poor quality of the equipment with which the French Air Force had to fight. Operationally, units equipped with the Amiot 143 performed with distinction. The eight squadrons flew 551 night bombing sorties between 10 May and 16 June and lost only twelve aircraft. In addition, six of the squadrons furnished thirteen aircraft for one desperate daylight mission on 14 June against German bridges and vehicular traffic approaching Sedan. A strong fighter escort kept the loss to three Amiots.26

The French long-range, four-engine heavy bomber, the Farman 222, equipped four squadrons. These squadrons flew seventy-one night bombing missions, striking targets such as Munich, Cologne, and Koblenz. They lost only two aircraft.

Modern French day bombers included the 307mph Lioré et Olivier LeO 451 ( 18 squadrons, 392 sorties, 98 losses), the 298-mph Amiot 354 (4 squadrons partially equipped, 48 losses), and the 304-mph Breguet 693 (10 squadrons, 484 sorties, 47 losses). The French machines were supplemented by shipments from America of the 288-mph Martin 167F (first of 8 squadrons into action 22 May, 385 sorties, 15 losses) and the 305-mph Douglas DB-7F (first of 6 squadrons into action 31 May, 69 sorties, 9 losses).

The effectiveness of the French bomber force was reduced by poor communications arrangements that made massing of bomber squadrons impossible and rendezvous with fighter-escort problematic. Attacking piecemeal, the two day-bomber wings operational on 10 May lost twenty-eight of their forty-two aircraft in the first week. RAF day-bomber units, operating in the same command/control/communications environment, lost 132 out of 192. Most of the surviving machines were in need of extensive repairs. Although new aircraft and units came into action, the low operational rate (.25 sorties per aircraft per day) of the bomber force degraded its ability to have a significant effect on the land battle.

French reconnaissance and observation units had the most powerful aircraft in these two categories in the world. The standard French strategic reconnaissance aircraft, the Bloch 174, was capable of 329 miles per hour and an altitude of 36,000 feet. First delivered to units in March 1940, the Bloch 174 was produced quickly enough to equip all of the strategic reconnaissance squadrons during the battle. The reconnaissance units obtained early, accurate, and detailed information on German concentrations and axes of advance. They continued to keep senior army headquarters informed, irrespective of weather and enemy opposition, throughout the battle. However, the tempo of activity in reconnaissance units was extraordinarily low--an average of one mission every three days for a squadron (.04 sorties per aircraft perday). At the peak of intensity--from 10 to 15 May--the most active squadron flew two missions per day.27

The observation branch, relegated to reserve status in 1936, was the stepchild of the air force. The air staff had no program to modernize its equipment--aircraft dating from 1925 to 1935. Guy La Chambre in June 1938 directed the air staff to reequip the observation squadrons. Pilots in operational units wanted an ultrafast singleseater for long-range reconnaissance and a light two-seater capable of landing on unimproved fields for short-range observation missions. The air staff, preoccupied with political issues and indifferent to the views of men on squadron duty, ordered the Potez 63.11, the fastest, heaviest, most complex observation plane in the world. With a top speed of 264 miles per hour, it was 40 miles per hour faster than its German counterpart (Henschel Hs 126 B) and 50 miles per hour faster than the British Lysander. With twelve machine guns, it was the most heavily armed machine in any air force. Too fast and heavy to land on improvised strips yet too slow to escape German fighters, it was an elegant and graceful coffin for its crews.

Observation squadrons trained and mobilized under the army commands they would support. Army corps commanders viewed their observation squadrons as their private air forces and often imposed unrealistic demands that led to heavy losses early in the war. The air force general staff made rules to protect observation aircraft that limited their utility--for example, they had to fly behind friendly artillery, no mission could exceed fifteen minutes, fighter escort was required, and only the most modern (Potez 63.1 1) aircraft could be used. Poor liaison between the army and air force, coupled with slow communications within the air force, led to many observation squadrons being kept on forward airfields until they were about to be overrun by German motorized units. As a result, more than half of the observation aircraft in units on 10 May were destroyed to prevent capture or simply abandoned by the end of the first week. When the front stabilized between 25 May and 5 June, the observation units performed effectively, but coordination between the air force and army was too threadbare to permit them to function in a war of movement.21

The ability of the air force to provide close combat support to the army had been fatally compromised by the aviators' struggle for independence. Senior army officers were ignorant of the capabilities and limitations of aviation, and the air force had done almost nothing to develop a capability to attack battlefield targets. Army generals declined strikes on appropriate targets. They demanded support without being able to describe the nature or location of the target or the plan and timing of the friendly maneuver to be supported. The air force organized maximum efforts to support French armored counterattacks. On 14 May, British and French bombers flew 138 sorties and lost 51 planes in support of General Charles Huntziger's counterattack at Sedan. He postponed the attack. The next day the air force mounted 175 sorties; the attack was canceled. The air force did its best to support Colonel Charles de Gaulle's armored thrusts toward Montcornet on 16 and 17 May. Night fighters received day ground assault missions, and the remains of the bomber units were committed. But Colonel de Gaulle failed to tell the air force the time and direction of his movements. As a result, 68 bomber sorties went in before de Gaulle moved and were of no assistance to him. A major breakout south by the encircled Army Group 1 was planned for 21 May. The air force received orders to support the attack but had no information on the time, place, or direction.29 (The mission was canceled.)

The air force general staff, dedicated to the strategic bombing mission, had quietly ignored Guy La Chambre's directive to prepare for the ground assault mission. La Chambre had forced the air staff to procure assault bombers in 1938, and the first aircraft arrived in units in October 1939. The instructional manual for assault bomber units did not appear until January 1940, and there never was a manual for the employment of fighters in the assault role. The air staff complied with the letter of ministerial and army demands for a ground assault capability but did not commit intellectual, developmental, or training resources to developing one.

With German armor overrunning France, the air force belatedly sought to improvise an antitank capability. More than 2300 of the 2900 French fighter planes and all of the 382 assault bombers available during the battle carried 20mm cannon capable of penetrating the topside armor of all of the German tanks. The air staff designated Fighter Group III/2 to carry out the first aerial antitank missions. Its MS 406 aircraft carried high-velocity, engine-mounted 20-mm guns, but no armor-piercing ammunition was available. On 23 and 24 May, the unit flew nine sorties, lost three aircraft, and destroyed no tanks. Two weeks later, several fighter units flew a total of forty-eight antitank sorties over a four-day period--again without armor-piercing shells. They lost ten aircraft and did inconsequential damage. Two attacks in mid-June cost an additional three aircraft without seriously damaging any tanks.30 The capability of the armament and the valor of the pilots were wasted because of the absence of intellectual and logistical preparation.

The story of the French Air Force is one of gallant and competent individual performances that made no perceptible difference in the outcome of the battle. A dozen years of political strife had unraveled the network of trust and confidence through which bravery and professional skill could have an effect. The army and the air force each fought its own battle, weakened by the lack of coordination. The air staff, with its eyes on Berlin, neglected the preparation of command/control/communications systems and thereby denied the French Air Force the ability to integrate the efforts of individual units. The air force was so bitterly alienated from the political leadership that it declined to expand its organization and thereby deprived France of the powerful air force that its industrial base had provided.

Could the French Air Force Have
Seized Command of the Air?
On 10 May 1940, the operational units of the French Air Force committed to the Western Front were heavily outnumbered. The low rate of operations in the French Air Force compared to that of the Germans increased by a factor of four the French inferiority in the air during the first month of the battle. By mid-June, however, the Luftwaffe was exhausted. It had lost 40 percent of its aircraft. Its flyers had been operating above hostile territory without navigational aids and with the certainty of capture in the event their aircraft were disabled. The air and ground crews were working from captured fields at the end of lengthening supply lines. The French, on the other hand, had conducted much less intensive flight operations, were able to recover the crews of disabled aircraft, were falling back on their logistical bases, and were bringing new units on line with brand new aircraft every day. By 15 June, the French and German air forces were at approximate parity with about 2400 aircraft each, but the French were operating from their own turf, and they had the support of the RAF. Mastery of the air was there for the seizing, but on 17 June the French air staff began to order its units to fly to North Africa. The justification put forth by the air staff was that the army was destroyed and could not protect the airfields.

An examination of which units were ordered to North Africa and which were left behind reveals much about the motivation behind the evacuation. The units flown to North Africa were those regular air force squadrons with the most modern and effective aircraft--all of the squadrons equipped with the Curtiss 75A (10), Dewoitine 520 (10), Amiot 354 ( 8 ), Bloch 174 (18 ), Farman 222 (4), Douglas DB-7 ( 8 ), and Martin 167 (10), plus most of those with the Lioré et Olivier 451 (12 of 18 ). Those left behind included all of the air force reserve units--47 observation squadrons and 12 fighter squadrons--and all of the units closely connected with the army (the observation squadrons, the 10 assault bomber squadrons, and 7 night fighter squadrons converted to the ground assault role).31

The behavior of the leaders of the French Air Force before and during the Battle of France suggests that their primary purposes were to protect the regular air force against its domestic adversaries and to ensure its survival after the battle and the expected defeat. Refusing to expand the regular air force, spinning off the dangerous and unglamorous observation mission to the reserves, maintaining a low operational rate, declining to seize command of the air when the Luftwaffe was weak, and selecting only regular air force units and those unconnected with direct support of the army to send to North Africa constitute a coherent pattern. The senior aviators kept their service small, protected the cadres from severe danger, and kept most of the regular air force together out of the Germans' reach. Such decisions suggest a preposterous misordering of priorities in a nation at war but do make psychological and institutional sense when one reflects on both the frustration the aviators had suffered in their struggle to achieve operational independence from the army and the cavalier and callous way in which parliamentary officials had played with their lives, careers, and values.

The relevance of the French experience for leaders of the United States Air Force lies in the fact that the institutional struggle for autonomy and the operational necessity for cooperation are permanent and uncongenial elements of every defense establishment. The U.S. Army Air Service (and Air Corps) endured as much destructive and capricious treatment by uniformed and civilian officials of the army and the navy during the interwar years as did the French Air Force.32 By facing the issue of institutional independence for aviation just after (rather than just before) a great war, American military leaders avoided an interservice confrontation on the battlefield. But the interservice struggle goes on: doctrinal divergence retains its potential to sabotage mutual support among the services in future wars. The French experience can be useful as a cautionary tale about the ease with which institutional loyalties can weaken a national defensive posture.

saumon831982
05-28-2006, 08:11 AM
To supplement what was known as previously, here some additional
images.

Amiot 351/354 :

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9324/a35118np.gif

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8844/a35145dp.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4664/a351gbii3419406yd.jpg

Bloch 174 :

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8418/mb17410ck.gif

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4692/mb17418db.jpg

Caudron C.714 :
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/5882/c7147rw.jpg

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/9126/caudronms72wy.jpg

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2464/caudronms45kx.jpg

Farman 222:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/408/farman222d7vt.gif

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6959/farman2213xe.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1539/farman2222dijon3fh.jpg

Amiot 143 :

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7909/amiot201436dw.jpg

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3430/amiot143m3hc.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7006/049939hd.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8030/060569er.jpg

Lioré et Olivier Léo 45 :

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8936/leo4518xy.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/7034/leo4525wl.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1469/leo4532cq.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3779/leo4526oc.gif

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6516/leo4543ub.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4739/lo450mw.jpg

Morane-Saulnier MS 406 :

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1875/ms40666xn.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/2931/ms40643sx.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3428/ms406fgs0zu.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4564/ms406ljhf7ud.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3268/ms4066esciii19lu.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7596/ms40691oo.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1407/gciii1vue16jn.jpg

Gros_boulet
05-28-2006, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:

Table II. Modern Combat Aircraft Deployed on the Western Front, 10 May 194022

Type
French
British
Belgian,
and Dutch
Combined
German

Fighters 583 197 780 1264
Bombers 84 192 276 1504
Reconnaissance
and Observation 458 96 554 502

Totals 1125 485 1610 3270

There is probably a mistake for the Belgian and Dutch numbers (or most possibly an inversion with the British ones).

Since the Belgians had only 15 Gladiator MkI, 11 Hurricane MkI, 24 Fiat CR42-b, 92 Fairey Fox of various type (obsolete biplanes, mainly used for recon and observation during the blitzkrieg), 21 Renard R31 (belgian made recon aircraft) and 18 Fairey Battle...
So it makes about 50 fighters, 113 recon and observ. aircrafts and 18 (light) bombers.
I have no data concerning the Dutch airforce...

For your information, the belgian air force ('Aéronautique Militaire' at that time) consisted in:

*1 Aé:
- I/1 Aé 'La Mouette' (Army corps'Observation): 10 Fairey Fox III c
- II/1 Aé 'Feuille de Houx' (Army corps' Observation): 12 Fairey Fox II and IIIc
- III/1 Aé 'Hirondelle' (Army corps' Observation): 10 Fairey Fox IIIc and 1 Morane 236
- IV/1 Aé 'Diable' (Army corps' Observation): 9 Fairey Fox VIc and 1 Morane 236
- V/1 Aé 'Sioux Bleu' (Army corps' Observation): 11 Renard R31 and 1 Stampe SV5
- VI/1 Aé 'Sioux rouge' (Army corps' Observation): 10 Renard R31, 2 Stampe SV5 and 1 Morane 236

*2 Aé:
- I/2 Aé 'Com¨te' and 'C******' (Fighters): 15 Gladiator Mk1 and 11 Hurricane Mk1
- II/2 Aé 'Cocotte blanche' and 'Cocotte rouge' (fighters): 15 Fiat CR42-b and 9 Fiat CR42-b
- III/2 Aé 'Epervier bleu' and 'Epervier rouge' (Fighters): 28 Fairey Fox VIc and VIIIc, 1 Fairey Fox VII and 1 SV4B

*3 Aé:
- I/3 Aé 'Dragon doré' and 'Dragon argenté' (Night recon): 9 Fairey Fox IIIc and 9 Fairey Fox IIIc
- II/3 Aé (Bombers): No aircraft, ghost squad. Probably awaiting the Breguet 694, the Caproni 312 and the Douglas DB-7.
- III/3 Aé 'Aigle egyptien' (day recon and bombing): 13 Fairey Battle
- IV/3 Aé 'Fl¨che ailée' (day recon): 9 Fairey Fox VIc

So the proportion of reconaissance and observation aircrafts for the belgian air force is quite important...

Can some one post some informations about the Dutch airforce (aircraft types, numbers, organisation,...)? Just out of curiosity...

saumon831982
05-28-2006, 10:12 AM
Fairey Battle in Belgian Air Force ( " Aéronautique Militaire " )

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9088/battlebelgium4fo.jpg

Belgian CR 42:

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8049/4ii2vue77sr.jpg

Gros_boulet
05-28-2006, 11:09 AM
The belgian Hurricane Mk1:

http://vvjack.be/Avions/HURRI.gif

http://vvjack.be/Avions/H3.jpeg

The Gladiators Mk1:

http://vvjack.be/Avions/GLAD02.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milprofiles/gladiator_serge_vahrushov.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_a_m/gladiator01.jpg

The Fiat CR42:

http://vvjack.be/Avions/falco_47.jpeg

http://vvjack.be/Avions/CR4203.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milprofiles/fiat_cr42_r5_serge_vahrushov.jpg

The Fairey Fox:

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_a_m/Fox.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/fox-i.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_a_m/Fox_O113.jpg

The Renard R31:

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_n_x/r31_n21_wevelgem_0337_vdm_0.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milprofiles/pf_r31.jpg

The Fairey Battle:

this is the one at the Brussels air museum
http://www.paulnann.com/images/pn_w0914.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_a_m/Battle01.jpg

http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/Interbellum/interbellum_a_m/Battle03.jpg

TheGozr
05-28-2006, 02:57 PM
LEBillfish

Though it most certainly was a pivotal point in the war, my question relates to how much bang for the buck you are getting for a type of plane, not the importance of a conflict.
==
Well that so wrong my dear.
The french aviation influenced lots of aircraft makers in the pre and ww2 era as German post ww2.
To la's yak's spit's Fw's P47's etc..

Any how it is very interesting.

JG53Frankyboy
05-29-2006, 04:21 AM
Douglas DB-8A/3N for the dutch Airforce

http://www.moduni.de/picture/500/7/6/3/2/7632525.jpg

"The Douglas Model 8A-3N was a version of the A-17A built for the Netherlands. It was powered by a 1100 hp Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp S3C-G. The first example flew on July 31, 1939. A total of 18 were ordered in early 1939. They were delivered between August and November of 1939.

The Model 8A-3Ns bore the company numbers 531/548 and were given the Dutch serial numbers 381/396. They were assigned to the 3rd Fighter Squadron of the 2nd Air Regiment based at Ypenburg. One Model 8A-3N was lost in a prewar accident. On May 10, 1940, when German forces began their Western offensive, twelve DB-8A-3N aircraft were on active duty at Ypenburg, and five were held in reserve at Ockenburg. One of the DB-8A-3Ns was destroyed on the ground during the initial Luftwaffe attack, but the eleven other aircraft were able to get into the air. The DB-8A-3N was not intended as a fighter, and seven of them were quickly shot down by Luftwaffe Bf 110s. However, the Dutch DB-8A-3Ns did manage to shoot down a couple of Ju 52 troop transports. Shortly after landing, the remaining four DB-8A-3Ns were caught on the ground in another German raid and were all destroyed.

The five DB-8A-3Ns in reserve at Ockenburg were captured intact by the Luftwaffe. In 1941 one of the captured planes was put on display in Berlin next to the DO-X. However, later in the war, this plane was destroyed during an Allied air attack.


Specification of Douglas DB-8A-3N:
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney R-1830-S3CG Twin Wasp air-cooled radial engine, rated at 1050 hp for takeoff and 900 hp at 12,000 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 260 mph at 12,000 feet. Cruising speed 205 mph. Landing speed 66 mph. Initial climb rate 1430 feet per minute. Service ceiling 29,600 feet, Normal range 910 miles. Dimensions: Wingspan 47 feet 9 inches, Length 32 feet 5 inches, Height 9 feet 9 inches, Wing area 363 square feet. Weights: 5508 pounds empty, 7848 pounds gross, 8948 pounds maximum. Armament: Four wing-mounted 0.30-inch machine guns, plus one flexible 0.30-inch machine gun operated by rear cockpit gunner. Normal bomb load included 20 internally-carried 30-lb bombs and four external 100-lb bombs. Maximum bomb load 1200 pounds."

Source: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a17.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher4/a17.html)

DIRTY-MAC
05-29-2006, 06:23 AM
by the way there is a book vritten by a english pilot who flew hurricanes in France that is very good,

I really recommend it, its an excellent read

Fighter Pilot
Paul Richey

Originally published anonymously in 1941, this was the first and finest story of a fighter pilot in World War Two. Based on the author's personal journal, it is the classic account of the part played by RAF No.1 Squadron in the air battles that preceded the fall of France in 1940. Beginning on the day the squadron arrived in France, the book recounts the unnerving lull of the 'Sitzkrieg' and the sudden crescendo of violence and crushing fatigue of almost non-stop combats during the 'Blitzkrieg'. Imbued with the Great War traditions of chivalry, Richey and his comrades accorded the enemy fighter squadron mercy and respect, until the disillusion of witnessing the Luftwaffe's callous attacks on helpless refugees changed all that. It was then that the skills and elans of the RAF's premier fighter squadron were turned to even greater account, and the result was a remarkable combat record. By the time they withdrew from France on 18 June 1940, No.1 Squadron had destroyed a total of 155 enemy aircraft, 114 of them in only ten days - for the loss of three pilots killed, two wounded, and one prisoner of war. As Paul Richey wrote: 'It seems - and I believed it was - a miracle.'

Maico_249th
05-30-2006, 01:25 AM
In the current 4.04m I fly my 109E4 against the French MS 405, Gladiators and Hawk 75s. I throw in a couple of Hurricane I's when I get bored. The northen France map is sufficient for me. Sometimes I escort Stukas or Ju-88s. The phoney war (that was not phoney) can easily duplicated with 4.4. However I look forward to the Hawk 75 (this one can be used in the pacific as well) and the D-520 as flyables. I done hold a lot of hope for the 406 and 410. They seem real weak to me. I allways feel like my early scenerios are not complete without the Do-17 flying pencil. Lets hope to see some of the french bombers in BOB.

Buzzsaw-
05-30-2006, 08:34 AM
Salute

I think a Battle of France scenario would be great.

However, realistically Oleg should only incorporate aircraft which actually participated in numbers and which were competitive, AND which we can find cockpits for. Considering BoB is only going to have 11 aircraft, a BoF addon will probably have less.

Flyable:

France

D-520
MS-406
Curtiss H-75
Amiot bomber if cockpit can be found

Belgium:

(CR-42, Gladiator and Hurri will already be made)

Holland

Fokker DXXI
Fokker G-1

Britain

Fairey Battle

Germany

109D?
109E-1

The rest can be AI.

saumon831982
05-30-2006, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

I think a Battle of France scenario would be great.

However, realistically Oleg should only incorporate aircraft which actually participated in numbers and which were competitive, AND which we can find cockpits for. Considering BoB is only going to have 11 aircraft, a BoF addon will probably have less.

Flyable:

France

D-520
MS-406
Curtiss H-75
Amiot bomber if cockpit can be found

Belgium:

(CR-42, Gladiator and Hurri will already be made)

Holland

Fokker DXXI
Fokker G-1

Britain

Fairey Battle

Germany

109D?
109E-1

The rest can be AI.

Only this planes flyable, you wish?

Don't forget this :

French ground assault plane : <span class="ev_code_RED">Bréguet 693</span>

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4958/breouip2db8yw.jpg

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5564/breguet693017mh3wp.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7997/br693entrainement9ou4yq.jpg

Bloch 150 series ( 151/152/155 )

Bloch 152 :
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6624/mb15150ga8bm.jpg

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6928/mb15x39yq0vj.jpg

Bloch 155 :
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8535/azur086mg6aa.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/715/fot1695ab1ig.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9610/mb15523si3ge.jpg

Arsenal VG-33 ( http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm )
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1333/vg33photo11gu0yz.jpg

Macwan
05-30-2006, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

I think a Battle of France scenario would be great.

However, realistically Oleg should only incorporate aircraft which actually participated in numbers and which were competitive, AND which we can find cockpits for. Considering BoB is only going to have 11 aircraft, a BoF addon will probably have less.

Flyable:

France

D-520
MS-406
Curtiss H-75
Amiot bomber if cockpit can be found

Belgium:

(CR-42, Gladiator and Hurri will already be made)

Holland

Fokker DXXI
Fokker G-1

Britain

Fairey Battle

Germany

109D?
109E-1

The rest can be AI.

Hi Buzzsaw,

the fact (and the problem too) is that, contrary to Battle of Britain, many different aicrafts were engaged from Netherlands to France (and I don't count Poland yet !).

For example, there were 4 main fighters for France : MS406, MB152 series, Hawk75 and D520 ; one heavy fighter : Potez 361... and of course there are secondary planes such as C.714 and VG33.

As Saumon831982 said, there were also ground attack planes and medium bombers. French marine bombers did strikes too...should we integrate them or not ?

Only Oleg/1C can tell us the limits of a new add-on, but that will be hard to reproduce the Battle of France (/Netherlands/Belgium) without lots of different planes... as it was in reality... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Macwan.

JG53Frankyboy
05-30-2006, 10:00 AM
well, so far i know this BoF project is still 3.Party !!

so, if there are enough people to modell all these planes , sure in BoB quality (!!!) , lets put them in...........

but dont you also think this is highly doubtfull?

so, they should concentrate on some main planes...... other wise i see this project already dead ! like a lot ones in the past http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

triad773
05-30-2006, 02:14 PM
Hey DIRTY-MAC, very cool read. Thanks for sharing all of that history. Yes I'd really like to see the BOF as a prequel to BOB. Its all a giant puzzle in the end where, ideally we could all play from the first Blitzkrieg to V-J Day.

Would much rather see the historic aircraft before the uber planes.

Cheers

Triad

Ugly_Kid
05-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Likewise BoF would be really something fresh - BoB is more or less done to death...

DIRTY-MAC
05-30-2006, 06:40 PM
The Bloch 174 was an exellent aircraft that was used also alot in the med and was extreemely popular among its crews, do some reading on it

WTE_Galway
05-30-2006, 10:58 PM
I for one would buy a Battle of France addon the minute it came out.

wiekiewiekie
05-31-2006, 01:09 AM
http://www.luijken.com/images/inprogress/hubobehigh0410e1280.jpg

A fokker G.1a and the D.XXI would be soooo cool to fly. Also some of the french planes are beautiful stuff.

I'll gladly make some more artwork to promote our cause !

saumon831982
05-31-2006, 01:57 AM
Dutch airplanes :

Fokker D.XXI

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8869/dxxime109dogfv00601260xb.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/291/the20beach1ip.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6347/dxxismokev00100989se.jpg

Fokker G.1A

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2143/g1000278rd.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7681/wires9qp.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5685/comic7zg.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1276/fly20blue9lo.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3034/g1greysky01267fm.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3569/g1soloskyb2v0080279c9fb.jpg


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif beautiful http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif isn't it ?

saumon831982
05-31-2006, 04:06 AM
French H75 :

http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/4102/h75a1gci4n246cm.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2305/h75a1gci4n811dc.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8364/gci5vue39qb.jpg

http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/2703/gci5vue12zc.jpg

TheGozr
05-31-2006, 05:50 PM
Please no copy paste web thingies!!
Scans a must.

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt2.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt3.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt4.jpg


http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/french-colors.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors2.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors3.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors4.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors4.jpg

saumon831982
06-01-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Please no copy paste web thingies!!
Scans a must.

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt2.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt3.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francetxt4.jpg


http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/french-colors.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors2.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors3.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/docs/francecolors4.jpg


Too bad... I have no documents in English... but only in French: it's much easy to understand for you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TheGozr
06-01-2006, 01:32 PM
Well, me too i have a lots of docs in French http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Et meme que j'comprend tres bien le francais.. because i am francais mon cher, jusqu'a l'os http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Vazzzzy envois la lecture http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ou email
saumon quand viens tu voler sur Normandie-Niemen server dans HyperLobby?
======

I hope that some of you will read the actual text above and maybe learn on the run.

triad773
06-01-2006, 01:50 PM
This is a pretty cool thread guys! You have me hooked and looking forward to this! As has been said: BoB has been done, but this would make a very keen add on indeed!

~S~

Triad

TheGozr
06-01-2006, 01:52 PM
It's very important while making researches about some aircrafts etc.. read many differents real sources not internet web stuff. Read about the states of the country politic of that time etc, it's a whole different aspect, if you do not you will end like many on this site that have mistbeleive of .. hum for example the yaks /La's/ US crafts and many others

saumon831982
06-01-2006, 03:04 PM
Victories of the French aviation from September 1939 to June 1940 :

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5465/palma19408de.png

EDCF_Rama
06-01-2006, 03:16 PM
Please Saumon, don't publicize these numbers.... there are vastly overestimated.

The last estimation from the SHAA (estimation presented around 10 years ago), are between 500 and 600 vicotries in total (which are not that bad... no need to publicize numbers that were vastly overestimated by Vichy propaganda).

saumon831982
06-01-2006, 03:23 PM
Ouppppssss .... yes, sorry.

But with only victories confirmed : 686

EDCF RAMA , do you have the last estimation of the SHAA ( Historical Service of Armée de l'Air) ?

TheGozr
06-01-2006, 04:27 PM
Rama
Did you read teh above post..
Beware Vichy's time and dates...

saumon831982
06-02-2006, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
Victories of the French aviation from September 1939 to June 1940 :

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5465/palma19408de.png

Can I delete this estimation on this Topic ?

TheGozr
06-02-2006, 09:38 AM
Just edit it and voila.. there is a edit icon at the bottom right of your screen. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Irish_Rogues
06-02-2006, 12:45 PM
I think you guys missed LEBillfish's point, that I agree with. While it would be a cool add-on, is it a efficent use of time to develop a specialized plane set for a six-week campaign?

Ugly_Kid
06-02-2006, 01:23 PM
Somehow I don't see 6 weeks of BoF paling in comparison to 11 weeks of BoB - combine that with Netherlands and Belgium something that has never been done and it has an addition of novelty - the mere graphics and special effects a la Oleg won't make BoB that fresh for me - I think I played first BoBs already with C64 and consequently with MSX somewhere in the 80s back then it was new and Spitfire was kewl - now the thrill is letting off a bit ...

saumon831982
06-02-2006, 01:52 PM
Add-on Battle of France would make it possible to change an other theatre of operation...that would make it possible to fly finally on new aircraft... which would change us routine such as Me 109, Fw 190, Hurricane, Spifire Mk X, Y, Z and etc.

It's a pity... it misses by the interesting things (and not only for the countries concerned historically).

The vision of the World War II must be a global vision... because it's well a "world" war.

The historical facts from September 1939 to June 1940 should not have overlooked... that would be absurd!

The world is rich and full with diversity, it cannot limit to a vision anglo-saxone history.

leitmotiv
06-03-2006, 12:50 PM
I regularly take on the redoubtable Morane with the 109E-4 (Battle of France) or the Hurricane IIB (Syria), and find it a fascinating opponent. The French Hawk 75 I use against the 109E-4 and the F4F-4 (Algeria). I eagerly await the opportunity to fly the Morane!

GerritJ9
06-03-2006, 02:56 PM
Given a choice of ONE flyable French fighter to add to FB/PF, I would go for either the D.520 or the Caudron C.714, the latter simply because of its odd looks. But based on performance, I'd eventually go for the D.520. However, the C.714 surely deserves inclusion as another crapplane (though whether it actually is remains to be seen). Wonder if there's enough documentation to do a cockpit for it.......

leitmotiv
06-03-2006, 04:10 PM
Received Azur 1:32 scale MS 406 today---hooray!

HotelBushranger
06-04-2006, 03:33 AM
I would definitely support a BoF and Low Countries addon! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Werwolf1944
06-04-2006, 08:59 AM
....the war began with Operation Weisse on 1st Septmber 1939.....

- Fall Weiss http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DIRTY-MAC
06-04-2006, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
I think you guys missed LEBillfish's point, that I agree with. While it would be a cool add-on, is it a efficent use of time to develop a specialized plane set for a six-week campaign?

almost all of the french aircraft types were used elsewere in the med , East, Far east and pacific
and some all up to 45

DIRTY-MAC
06-04-2006, 04:50 PM
Here are some of the planes used in the french war theatre 1939-40 and what other countries that used them,
Almost all were also used in the Med
and many up to ca 1942(Syria,Algeria,Tunisia) with many types used even later,



Bloch MB.151/152/155/157

used by

Germany
Greece
France
France (Vichy)


Curtiss P-36 Hawk/Hawk 75

used by

China
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
USA
Thailand
Finland
France
France (Vichy)



Caudron-Renault CR.714 Cyclone

France
Finland



Dewoitine D.520

Bulgaria
Germany
Italy (before 1943)
Italy (RSI)
France
France (Vichy)
France (Free)



Hawker Hurricane

Australia
Belgium
Great Britain
Egypt
India
Iran
Ireland
Italy (before 1943)
Canada
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
USSR/Russia
Turkey
Finland
South Africa
Yugoslavia
Yugoslavia




Morane-Saulnier MS.405/406/410

Great Britain
Germany
Lithuania
Turkey
Finland
France
France (Vichy)
France (Free)
Croatia
Switzerland
Yugoslavia (Partisans)



Potez 63/630/631/633

Germany
Greece
Romania
Romania
France
Switzerland
Yugoslavia



Potez 670/671

France



Bloch MB.174

France
France (Vichy)



Breguet Br.690/691/693/695

Germany
Italy
France
France (Vichy)



Bristol Blenheim

Great Britain
Greece
Indonesia
Italy (before 1943)
Canada
Portugal
Romania
Turkey
Finland
France (Free)
Croatia
South Africa
Yugoslavia



Fairey Battle

Australia
Belgium
Great Britain
Greece
Ireland
Canada
Turkey



Liore et Olivier LeO 45/451

Germany
USA
France
France (Vichy)
France (Free)



Loire-Nieuport LN.41/42/411

France



Martin Type 167/A-22 Maryland

Great Britain
France
France (Vichy)



Caudron C.440/C.444/C.445/C.448/C.449 Goeland

Belgium
Germany
Spain (Republicans)
Spain (Nationalists)
Italy (before 1943)
Slovakia
France
France (Free)
France (Vichy)



Nardi FN.305

Hungary
Germany
Italy (before 1943)
Romania
Romania
Romania
Chile



Dewoitine D.500/D.510

Venezuela
Spain (Republicans)
China
Lithuania
Turkey
France



Gloster Gladiator

Belgium
Great Britain
Greece
Egypt
Iraq
Ireland
China
Latvia
Lithuania
Norway
Portugal
USSR/Russia
Finland
South Africa



Koolhoven FK.58

France



Amiot 143

France



Bloch MB.131/MB.134

France
France (Vichy)



Bloch MB.200

Bulgaria
Spain (Republicans)
Slovakia
France
France (Vichy)
Czechoslovakia


Bloch MB.210 Verdum

Spain (Republicans)
Romania
France


Farman F.222

France
France (Vichy)



Farman NC.223

France



Potez 25/27

Spain (Republicans)
Paraguay
Poland
Portugal
France
France (Vichy)
Croatia
Ethiopia (Abyssinia)



Caudron C.630/C.635 Simoun

France



Caudron C.690

France



I have probably forgot a whole bunch of stuff

saumon831982
06-04-2006, 05:09 PM
You can find a vidéo abour french fighter Morane MS 406 here : (it's in fact a MS 406 different to the french Morane,because it's a Morane used and modified by Swiss Air Force)

http://www.france-simulation.com/download.php?dcategory=VIDEO+DIVERSES&sortby=

For vidéo about H75 (simulation PC), it's here :

http://www.france-simulation.com/download.php?dcategory=VIDEO+FB&sortby=

Names of 2 vidéos : "GC I/5" and " le premier combat de F. Warnier "

Tooz_69GIAP
06-04-2006, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Werwolf1944:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">....the war began with Operation Weisse on 1st Septmber 1939.....

- Fall Weiss http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't the life of a pedant a wonderful thing?!?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

saumon831982
06-05-2006, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
You can find a vidéo abour french fighter Morane MS 406 here : (it's in fact a MS 406 different to the french Morane,because it's a Morane used and modified by Swiss Air Force)

http://www.france-simulation.com/download.php?dcategory=VIDEO+DIVERSES&sortby=

For vidéo about H75 (simulation PC), it's here :

http://www.france-simulation.com/download.php?dcategory=VIDEO+FB&sortby=

Names of 2 vidéos : "GC I/5" and " le premier combat de F. Warnier "

What do you think about videos ??

Gros_boulet
06-05-2006, 08:23 AM
Wait a minute, I hadn't seen that video of the MS406 before... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Taken from Ferte Alais I guess http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
This year or last year?

saumon831982
06-05-2006, 08:26 AM
In 2005 I think !

AndyHigh
06-06-2006, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
And of course such oddballs such as the Caudron C.714 which could also be used for Finland since six served with the Finnish air force (as many as the MiG-3U with the VVS).

"Served" sounds rather optimistic here. Flights with this type were banned in Finland after few test flights made during interim peace. Landing gear collapsed during one flight.

HotelBushranger
06-06-2006, 07:24 AM
Caudron-Renault C.R. 714 was a single-seat cantilever low-wing monoplane with wooden structure and retractable main undercarriage. During the Winter War France decided to donate 80 CRs to Finland. But when the war ended, only 6 were on the way, 10 were at the harbour of Le Havre, France and 3 on the way from Paris to Le Havre. After all Finland received only the first 6 that the State Aircraft Factory received between 24 and 28 May, 1940. The first test flights were carried out on 3 Sep, 1940. Due to poor take-off and landing characteristics further flights with the aircraft type were denied on 10 Sep, 1940.

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#Koodron (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fighters.html#Koodron)

Destroyer110
06-06-2006, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
I think you guys missed LEBillfish's point, that I agree with. While it would be a cool add-on, is it a efficent use of time to develop a specialized plane set for a six-week campaign?

If SOW was totally scripted and modderable, then Maddox wouldn't need to do anything! French modellers and historians would create the planes and scenarios and add them into the game ... EASY!!!!

This happens with other games, and is a huge benefit, not theft, to game owners.

Frantish
06-06-2006, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Dice/2996/dewoitine-d-500.jpg

http://jnpassieux.chez-alice.fr/images/D500.jpg

http://www.odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum10/dewotine_510jpg.jpg
http://airwar.valka.cz/muzeum/francie/d_500/clipart/f_01.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/red_spain/aviones1/D-510.jpg


So THIS is what the Do-17MV beat at the 1937 Zurich Air Races!!!!

EDCF_Rama
06-07-2006, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Destroyer110:
If SOW was totally scripted and modderable, then Maddox wouldn't need to do anything! French modellers and historians would create the planes and scenarios and add them into the game ... EASY!!!!
And you can say goodbye to any quality standard... I've seen the quantity of junk planes produced by junk modellers for CFS2... don't want that.
(and don't want to download 50 models to have 1 acceptable... and to search the 3D model on one site, the gauage on another and the FM on a third one, and try to built something working by modifying text parameter files)


This happens with other games, and is a huge benefit, not theft, to game owners.
Wrong... this is to the huge benefit of modellers and junk planes collectors.... gamers have quit gaming since long time on these games.

Limitted (but real) modding capacity is Ok, if it's followed by a quality control for "official inclusion" in the game (thus, as told by Oleg, there will be official and unofficial servers, the later could feature uncontrolled models).

Total oppening it nothing but a total mess.

Hurri-Khan
06-07-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
However, the C.714 surely deserves inclusion as another crapplane (though whether it actually is remains to be seen). Wonder if there's enough documentation to do a cockpit for it.......

There's one in Finland, missing the vital gauges though..
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Finland/images/C714%20Cockpit.jpg

Caudrons in finnish "service";
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/ca-fin-1.htm (http://www.sci.fi/%7Efta/ca-fin-1.htm)

Museum where the A/C is located;
http://www.lahdenilmasilta.com/museo.html


>>>-H-K--->

GerritJ9
06-07-2006, 03:27 PM
Well, at least it's a start! From that aeroplane one could get accurate dimensions of the cockpit, plus some general layout info. Perhaps there are some cockpit photos available from French sources which could make a flyable C.714 viable for BoF. Does an MS.406 exist in Finland?

Hurri-Khan
06-07-2006, 04:58 PM
Oh.. it seems that the french had already completed their restauration and there is actually one of these rare birds flying!

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_g...&distinct_entry=true (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Caudron%20C-714%20Cyclone&distinct_entry=true)

No morane 406 in Finland http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Afterall they saw all three wars and m¶rk¶-conversion, one would think that atleast one could be worth saving for.. but no. All were scrapped. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


>>>-H-K--->

DIRTY-MAC
06-07-2006, 05:17 PM
http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/2/9/9/0596992.jpg

yep there is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Destroyer110
06-07-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Destroyer110:
If SOW was totally scripted and modderable, then Maddox wouldn't need to do anything! French modellers and historians would create the planes and scenarios and add them into the game ... EASY!!!!
And you can say goodbye to any quality standard... I've seen the quantity of junk planes produced by junk modellers for CFS2... don't want that.
(and don't want to download 50 models to have 1 acceptable... and to search the 3D model on one site, the gauage on another and the FM on a third one, and try to built something working by modifying text parameter files)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's wrong, I've seen some of those after market models are weren't too bad, and at least they were available!

In other games like RTW, modders actually create BETTER models and skins, and better scenarios and all for nothing! .. why? because they have a lot of dedication and interest in the period, it's not just a job. Actually CA did benefit, because the new release of RTW, barbarian Invasion did have some of these independant scenarios included.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This happens with other games, and is a huge benefit, not theft, to game owners.
Wrong... this is to the huge benefit of modellers and junk planes collectors.... gamers have quit gaming since long time on these games.

Limitted (but real) modding capacity is Ok, if it's followed by a quality control for "official inclusion" in the game (thus, as told by Oleg, there will be official and unofficial servers, the later could feature uncontrolled models).

Total oppening it nothing but a total mess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again, most flight simmers are dedicated people I suspect, you don't get junk planes and you don't get a mess .. you get Many projects with mostly dedicated, professional people, creating many different scenarios.

Of couse Maddox might be scared of losing control of their software, they shouldn't be, it's still legally theirs .. and they can pick and choose which unoffical scenarios they will add to their offical updates.

EDCF_Rama
06-08-2006, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Destroyer110:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Destroyer110:
If SOW was totally scripted and modderable, then Maddox wouldn't need to do anything! French modellers and historians would create the planes and scenarios and add them into the game ... EASY!!!!
And you can say goodbye to any quality standard... I've seen the quantity of junk planes produced by junk modellers for CFS2... don't want that.
(and don't want to download 50 models to have 1 acceptable... and to search the 3D model on one site, the gauage on another and the FM on a third one, and try to built something working by modifying text parameter files)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's wrong, I've seen some of those after market models are weren't too bad, and at least they were available! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do youhave any experience of flight simulation mods with 100% open games (CFS serie)???... apparently not.
90% of the modelled planes were junk production.... that's fact.


Originally posted by Destroyer110:
In other games like RTW, modders actually create BETTER models and skins, and better scenarios and all for nothing! .. why? because they have a lot of dedication and interest in the period, it's not just a job. Actually CA did benefit, because the new release of RTW, barbarian Invasion did have some of these independant scenarios included.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This happens with other games, and is a huge benefit, not theft, to game owners.
Wrong... this is to the huge benefit of modellers and junk planes collectors.... gamers have quit gaming since long time on these games.

Limitted (but real) modding capacity is Ok, if it's followed by a quality control for "official inclusion" in the game (thus, as told by Oleg, there will be official and unofficial servers, the later could feature uncontrolled models).

Total oppening it nothing but a total mess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again, most flight simmers are dedicated people I suspect, you don't get junk planes and you don't get a mess .. you get Many projects with mostly dedicated, professional people, creating many different scenarios.

Of couse Maddox might be scared of losing control of their software, they shouldn't be, it's still legally theirs .. and they can pick and choose which unoffical scenarios they will add to their offical updates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Try to find how many peoples playing actually 100% open games (with lot of mods) like CFS3... and compare to how many people playing FB.
Again I'm talking about facts... when you express only oppinions that in this case are in contradiction with facts.

Something you must understand: modellers interest and player interest is totally different.
Modellers love CFS3, and you can find a lot of mods in developpement there.... but almost no players (except the modders and the modders fan clubs composed of a few peoples).

EDCF_Rama
06-08-2006, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:
Oh.. it seems that the french had already completed their restauration and there is actually one of these rare birds flying!

This plane is not a warbird. It's a Caudron Cyclone... the warbird was the Caudron 714 with complete different fuselage, wings and engine.

It's also not a "restauration". it's a replica built with the references base on plane pictures. The builder didn't use any factory plan (I'm not even sure factory plan still exist for this bird).
The internal structure and material is totally different from the original. Only the shape is generally the same.
So it's a "free style" replica.

HotelBushranger
06-08-2006, 05:17 AM
I wouldn't want to fly a Cauldron, even being a cp@p-planes nut! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-08-2006, 05:31 AM
about bringing 3.Party stuff in the BoB game:

IF AT ALL Maddox will programm that posibillity the "default" planes will huge differ from that 3.Party stuff.
they will have a very simplified FM engine, and propably DM engine.
and you will be able to "select" online that you will allow such 3.Party stuff or not as a host.
if some 3.Party stuff will hit the quality of the default one perhaps the maddox team will put them in the "default" set - sure than with overworked FMs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but thats realy future talk........... as i said already, its even not known if such a feature will come with the BoB release, if even at all.

Hurri-Khan
06-08-2006, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
This plane is not a warbird. It's a Caudron Cyclone... the warbird was the Caudron 714 with complete different fuselage, wings and engine.

It's also not a "restauration". it's a replica built with the references base on plane pictures. The builder didn't use any factory plan (I'm not even sure factory plan still exist for this bird).

The internal structure and material is totally different from the original. Only the shape is generally the same.
So it's a "free style" replica.


Ahh.. okay. Thought it was this one, ex-finnish CA-553;
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Finland/images/Caudron%20714%20france.jpg

>>>-H-K--->

jeanba2
06-08-2006, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I wouldn't want to fly a Cauldron, even being a cp@p-planes nut! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
For the time, cauldron planes were excellent aircraft, very fun and safe to fly.

"A nice plane to fly, but not a plane to fight with"

JG53Frankyboy
06-08-2006, 07:45 AM
but the question should be more , was it "fun" and safe to fight in them.........

jeanba2
06-08-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
but the question should be more , was it "fun" and safe to fight in them.........
Hotel Bushranger asked about flying : I answer : "yes", asking about fighting : the answer is "no".

This was the whole point about the Caudron 714 : the idea was to turn a very good racer / aerobatics aircraft family into a fighter and it was not a good idea.

DIRTY-MAC
06-08-2006, 02:28 PM
This plane is not a warbird. It's a Caudron Cyclone... the warbird was the Caudron 714 with complete different fuselage, wings and engine.

oops your right, I see that now,
anyway the poles did a pretty good job with it
against the germans

leitmotiv
06-08-2006, 05:54 PM
Received Tamiya 1:35 scale Char B1 bis today---wheeeee!

Destroyer110
06-09-2006, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
...
Something you must understand: modellers interest and player interest is totally different.
Modellers love CFS3, and you can find a lot of mods in developpement there.... but almost no players (except the modders and the modders fan clubs composed of a few peoples).

CFS3 sounds like a contraction then, lots of differnt mods available but nobody wants to play them???????????????????? That's like saying IL2 players only play FB because they don't want the extra planes available in AEP+PF?
.. and don't give this **** about unoffical planes being ****. Weren't a few PF planes modelled externally .. I think yes.


Anyway, all this arguing isn't going to unlock Maddox's tight control on SOW .. so no point really. Let's hope users don't have to wait a life time for updates.

EDCF_Rama
06-09-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Destroyer110:
CFS3 sounds like a contraction then, lots of differnt mods available but nobody wants to play them????????????????????
This isn't a contradiction. Modding is a pleasure by itself... same kind of pleasure as modelling plastic kits or mini-trains... if players play the mods, it's cherries on cakes.


.. and don't give this **** about unoffical planes being ****. Weren't a few PF planes modelled externally .. I think yes.
This isn't ****. and there's a big difference between CFS2 modelling, without any quality control, and FB modelling... where mods have to be accepted by M:1C to be included in the games (and thus must follow quality specifications)
I have played CFS2 for years and like everybody downloaded and tested plane mods... and at least 90% were **** stuff.
This is what you get when no controls: 10% interesting stuff and 90% ****...

mods aren't the problem... uncontrolled mods are.
and 100% code open like you suggest = uncontrolled mods.

leitmotiv
06-09-2006, 08:43 AM
I am weary of modded games---I devoted a great deal of time to trying the mods for PANZER ELITE to no avail---it was still a clunker---as stated above, the only people who maintained interest were the modders. Ditto for OVER FLANDERS FIELDS---as we have seen on the Maddox forums, there are some die-hard supporters of this thing, but it is still a clunker. Even Shockwave's much-touted BATTLE OF BRIT has its ferocious adherents but, compared to Oleg's work it is pathetic. Quality trumps variety any day. And, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Gros_boulet
06-11-2006, 09:04 AM
Cockpit picture:

D520:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/JDK2/MysteryFighterJDK02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/JDK2/MysteryFighterJDK01.jpg

Gladiator:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/cockpit5.jpg

Potez 631:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/cringe_/unk30a.jpg

JamesBlonde888
06-14-2006, 07:30 PM
This is a brilliant idea for an expansion pack. All those funny looking antiques should burn rather well.

Gros_boulet
06-17-2006, 02:26 PM
BUMP! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG301_nils
06-17-2006, 06:44 PM
I fear for the BoB series, that add-on packs (plane modelling + coding and all) will be so time consuming that it will eventually bite it's own tail.. Seeing the amount of time needed to push out add-on models to IL2, for correct modelling and FM in BoB, one can maybe double that time... sooo will the game live long enough, to see late war theatres created??
-nils-

GerritJ9
06-18-2006, 03:57 PM
The AEP contained a significant number of totally new aeroplanes and I don't see why a BoF add-on would not be able to include a similar number. Since Holland, Belgium and France were overrun in a relatively brief campaign, there would be no need for a large number of subtypes which would simplify things to a certain extent. For France, the MS.406, D.520, both Hawk 75 versions and perhaps an oddball or two such as the Caudron C.714 or a Bloch would be sufficient as flyables, plus several AIs such as the Potez 63 series and a few significant bomber types. For Holland, the G.1, D.XXI (and perhaps a C.X or C.V) as flyables plus the T.V as AI. Belgium had a few Hurricane Mk.Is which will already be in BoB, and a flyable CR.42 and Battle would cover the most important Belgian types. The main British aeroplanes would already be in BoB with the exception of the Battle- also used by Belgium. Germany, like Britain, would already be largely represented by the aeroplanes in BoB. A Poland scenario could be included with the PZL P-11 and P-24 (and P-50 Jaztrab???) as flyable plus one or two AI such as the Karas.
Further expansion such as the Med would require significant numbers of new aeroplanes, but given the large amount of aeroplanes that have been introduced since the launch of FB and the types still known to be either released soon (Ki.27, Ki.21, IL-10) or on the shelf (CW-21B, D.XXI for instance), plus the objects and maps created by both 1C and third parties I don't see why it can't be done within the life cycle of the BoB engine, which I suspect will be at least as long as that of the FB/PF engine.

Gros_boulet
06-19-2006, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The AEP contained a significant number of totally new aeroplanes and I don't see why a BoF add-on would not be able to include a similar number. Since Holland, Belgium and France were overrun in a relatively brief campaign, there would be no need for a large number of subtypes which would simplify things to a certain extent. For France, the MS.406, D.520, both Hawk 75 versions and perhaps an oddball or two such as the Caudron C.714 or a Bloch would be sufficient as flyables, plus several AIs such as the Potez 63 series and a few significant bomber types. For Holland, the G.1, D.XXI (and perhaps a C.X or C.V) as flyables plus the T.V as AI. Belgium had a few Hurricane Mk.Is which will already be in BoB, and a flyable CR.42 and Battle would cover the most important Belgian types. The main British aeroplanes would already be in BoB with the exception of the Battle- also used by Belgium. Germany, like Britain, would already be largely represented by the aeroplanes in BoB. A Poland scenario could be included with the PZL P-11 and P-24 (and P-50 Jaztrab???) as flyable plus one or two AI such as the Karas.
Further expansion such as the Med would require significant numbers of new aeroplanes, but given the large amount of aeroplanes that have been introduced since the launch of FB and the types still known to be either released soon (Ki.27, Ki.21, IL-10) or on the shelf (CW-21B, D.XXI for instance), plus the objects and maps created by both 1C and third parties I don't see why it can't be done within the life cycle of the BoB engine, which I suspect will be at least as long as that of the FB/PF engine.

For the French, I think the Ms406, H75 and MB151 are absolutely needed since they represented the bulk of the french fighters force. The Caudron was quite anecdotic, I think. A D520 could eventually be added (it served in small number). AI LeO, Breguet and Potez would do the rest...
For the Belgians you are right: most of the planes would already be in-game with BoB: Hurricane MkI (two bladed screw), Fiat Cr42, Gladiator. A AI Fairey Battle and Fairey Fox would complete that...

For my information GerritJ9, could you tell how many Fokker XXI and GI served in the Koninglijke Nederlandse Luchtmacht in 1940 and where they were based?

GerritJ9
06-19-2006, 04:15 PM
The D.520 was the best French fighter of the early war period so it deserves to be included- not to mention that it also served with the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica as trainers, and operationally with the Bulgarians and Rumanians- forward thinking herehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Same goes for MS.406 which saw service with Finland and Croatia, and the Hawk 75A-3 and A-4 which were used by the RAF in various theatres as well as Finland. Furthermore, the Hawk 75A-4 could double for the Dutch 75A-7, used in the NEI. So some of the aeroplanes made for BoF could also be used for other theatres. Ditto for the Polish PZL P-11 and P-24, also used by Rumania and Greece.

Regarding the G.1s and D.XXIs, I will have to check my literature for exact figures and locations on May 10th 1940, but G.1s were based at the Waalhaven aerodrome in Rotterdam and Bergen among others, D.XXIs at de Kooy. Will let you know.

saumon831982
06-20-2006, 10:19 AM
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/1170/vroaaa032kv.jpg

Enjoy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

D13th_Toppy
06-20-2006, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The D.520 was the best French fighter of the early war period so it deserves to be included- not to mention that it also served with the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica as trainers, and operationally with the Bulgarians and Rumanians- forward thinking herehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
There was no D.520 in Romanian service.

Gros_boulet
06-20-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/1170/vroaaa032kv.jpg

Enjoy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

That kind of picture really makes me dream... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Taken from La Ferte this year I presume... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GerritJ9
06-21-2006, 06:25 AM
William Green mentions on page 48 of "Warplanes of the Second World War: Fighters Volume 1" that after the German invasion of Vichy France, about 100 D.520s were supplied to the Bulgarian Air Force and others (no number specified) to the Rumanian Air Force. "Of the Axis countries, only Bulgaria and Rumania employed the D.520 operationally." So according to this publication Rumania DID receive and use D.520s.

JG53Frankyboy
06-21-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
William Green mentions on page 48 of "Warplanes of the Second World War: Fighters Volume 1" that after the German invasion of Vichy France, about 100 D.520s were supplied to the Bulgarian Air Force and others (no number specified) to the Rumanian Air Force. "Of the Axis countries, only Bulgaria and Rumania employed the D.520 operationally." So according to this publication Rumania DID receive and use D.520s.

than he is propably wrong in that point.
in all my 3 publications (2 from Denes Bernad, 1 from Hans Werner Neulen ) about the rumanians there is no D.520 mentioned.

GerritJ9
06-21-2006, 05:03 PM
Looks like our Rumanian forum members will have to settle thishttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JamesBlonde888
06-21-2006, 09:01 PM
Caudron...

Sounds like Cauldron.

Probably looks and flies like one too.

HotelBushranger
06-21-2006, 10:24 PM
Considering the Finns got their Hawks from ex-French stores, that would mean their Hawks would have the French mushroom rivets right?

badatflyski
06-22-2006, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The AEP contained a significant number of totally new aeroplanes and I don't see why a BoF add-on would not be able to include a similar number. Since Holland, Belgium and France were overrun in a relatively brief campaign, there would be no need for a large number of subtypes which would simplify things to a certain extent. For France, the MS.406, D.520, both Hawk 75 versions and perhaps an oddball or two such as the Caudron C.714 or a Bloch would be sufficient as flyables, plus several AIs such as the Potez 63 series and a few significant bomber types. For Holland, the G.1, D.XXI (and perhaps a C.X or C.V) as flyables plus the T.V as AI. Belgium had a few Hurricane Mk.Is which will already be in BoB, and a flyable CR.42 and Battle would cover the most important Belgian types. The main British aeroplanes would already be in BoB with the exception of the Battle- also used by Belgium. Germany, like Britain, would already be largely represented by the aeroplanes in BoB. A Poland scenario could be included with the PZL P-11 and P-24 (and P-50 Jaztrab???) as flyable plus one or two AI such as the Karas.
Further expansion such as the Med would require significant numbers of new aeroplanes, but given the large amount of aeroplanes that have been introduced since the launch of FB and the types still known to be either released soon (Ki.27, Ki.21, IL-10) or on the shelf (CW-21B, D.XXI for instance), plus the objects and maps created by both 1C and third parties I don't see why it can't be done within the life cycle of the BoB engine, which I suspect will be at least as long as that of the FB/PF engine.

for the polish ones:
pzl-11http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gifk but pzl 24 not, it was an export version only and the model and engine were rather different.
The pzl23 Karas was in use by the polish air-army but the pzl 43 was the export version with other engine and guns(especially for romunia).
What i would like to see and not in AI version is is the pzl-37 medium bomber so i could verify with the pilot manual (which i have) on the knees if this planes flies like a real one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Just a presision: when the polish air-army flew out of poland, they arrived in romunia where all their planes has been "taken" (confiscated)by the romunia army that used them the rest of the war.
Pzl-50 was just a prototype, never saw combat and not even sure the plane was finished before 1/09/39

D13th_Toppy
06-22-2006, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by GerritJ9:
Looks like our Rumanian forum members will have to settle thishttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I still can't figure out from where this "rumor" about D520 in romanian service originated. It's quite obvious here that there were none, nobody flew them, nobody saw them, no paper ever mentions them... in any case, here is the complete list of the planes available in rumanian service during the war: http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=766

saumon831982
06-22-2006, 11:29 AM
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/2073/morane018mu.jpg

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/7192/morane037ky.jpg

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/810/curtiss018do.jpg

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/9412/curtiss021lw.jpg

Enjoy !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

GerritJ9
06-23-2006, 04:41 AM
The PZL P.50 did fly, its first test flight occurring in February 1939. A second prototype was apparently also tested, with an 870 hp. Gnome-Rhone engine instead of the first prototype's Bristol Mercury VIII. The first prototype was eventually flown to Rumania, but shot down en route by a Polish AA battery which, not being familiar with the type, thought it was a German aeroplane.

saumon831982
06-27-2006, 11:55 AM
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/4291/morane023in.jpg

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1950/curtiss033gu.jpg

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/3766/hawk2lu.jpg

Enjoy !!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Gros_boulet
07-03-2006, 03:26 PM
BUMP! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

saumon831982
07-09-2006, 11:03 AM
Dewoitine D.551 : French fighter project, successor of Dewoitine D.520

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/8316/041700sg.jpg

1 Motor Hispano-Suiza 12Y51 of 1000 Hp
Air speed max : 660 km/h at 6000 m
Armament envisaged : 2 x canon HS of 20 mm and 4 x 7.5 mm

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2315/d55021je.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

GerritJ9
07-13-2006, 10:52 AM
In all, 36 D.XXIs were delivered to the Dutch Air Arm, of which one (230) had been destroyed in an accident in November 1939.
This left 35 D.XXIs on May 10th, 1940, of which one (220) was being repaired at Fokker; two (226 and 231) were at the Fighter Training School at de Vlijt, Texel.
The 1st JaVa at de Kooy had twelve (214, 218, 219, 221, 223, 233, 234, 237, 240, 241, 242 and 244). Eleven were serviceable, the twelfth (237) undergoing an overhaul.
The 2nd JaVa at Schiphol had eleven aeroplanes (213, 224, 225, 229, 232, 235, 236, 238, 239, 243 and 245). Nine were serviceable, the other two (232 and 243) were being repaired.
The remaining nine D.XXIs were with 1-V-2LvR at Ypenburg (212, 215, 216, 217, 222, 227, 228, 246 and 247) of which one (227) was unserviceable as its armament had been removed.
Will check for the G-1 figures.

Gros_boulet
07-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the answer Gerrit... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I will be glad to learn about the G1... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GerritJ9
07-13-2006, 03:06 PM
The Dutch Air Arm received 36 G-1As (also known as the Mercury G-1), two of which had been destroyed in pre-war accidents.
On May 10th 1940 thirteen G-1As were with the 3rd JaVa at Waalhaven (Rotterdam): 302, 309, 311, 312, 314, 315, 316, 319, 328, 329, 330, 334 and 335. 316 was non-operational, being overhauled. According to several reports there were also at least ten G-1Bs (Wasp G-1) present, but these did not have any armament.
The 4th JaVa at Bergen had 14 G-1As: 301, 304, 305, 308, 310, 313, 317, 318, 321, 322, 325, 331, 332 and 333. 313 was undergiong an engine change and 317 was being repaired and were unserviceable.
303 was at Fokker's Schiphol works. Location of 300 on May 10th is unknown. 307 was with the Fighter Training School at de Vlijt, Texel.

Gros_boulet
07-16-2006, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the information http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
07-17-2006, 02:39 PM
Check this, gentlemen---it may not be the vintage we prefer, but it is better than nothing:

http://www3.telus.net/murrdaka/

Gros_boulet
07-30-2006, 07:36 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
BUMP

DuxCorvan
08-12-2006, 11:19 AM
The Fokker G.Ib were ordered by the Spanish Republic Air Force right before the Spanish Civil War, but in 1936 war started, and because of the pressure of the ominous Non-intervention Commitee -leaded by same guys of the brilliant 'appeasement' politics, which hypocritically left democracies out of the Spanish conflict, leaving the field open for fascist and communist intervention- the planes were never delivered, being hastily impressed into Dutch service in 1939.

saumon831982
08-12-2006, 01:18 PM
Relooking of Internet Site of Add-On " Battle of France and Low countries " for BOB :

http://www.battle-of-france-add-on.france-simulation.com/

leitmotiv
08-12-2006, 11:02 PM
Bon chance!

Cpt_Rene-Fonck
08-13-2006, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Bon chance!
Danke mein freund http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've found this thread just now , here are 3 small pics of the last D-520 remaining (or one of the last remaining ? maybe 2-3 at most , needs to be checked ) , at the aerodrome of Le Bourget :

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9945/1282897vi0.jpg http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1876/1282899ji0.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1699/1282898aw7.jpg


Well good luck for this project , this is really a forgotten battle of IL-2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gros_boulet
08-17-2006, 05:31 AM
The project Battle of France and the Low Countries is just about to start... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

All those who are willing to help are welcome (3D, 2D, informations,...). You can post your candidature(english is OK...) here:
http://france-simulation.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3710

GerritJ9
08-17-2006, 05:37 AM
It would appear that somebody is recruiting for a BoF add-on, see the following on France-Simulation: http://france-simulation.com/index.php?op=edito

leitmotiv
08-18-2006, 03:46 PM
As far as I am concerned, if the Battle of France is done right with all the French, English, and German aircraft it should have (I personally crave for the MS 406, Bloch 152, LeO 46, Battle, and 110C), I'll require no more from the Maddox people---I will be content. I also hope he does the land, too. To go against the Panzers in a Char B or Hotchkiss H-35 would be fantastic.

saumon831982
08-25-2006, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As far as I am concerned, if the Battle of France is done right with all the French, English, and German aircraft it should have (I personally crave for the MS 406, Bloch 152, LeO 46, Battle, and 110C), I'll require no more from the Maddox people---I will be content. I also hope he does the land, too. To go against the Panzers in a Char B or Hotchkiss H-35 would be fantastic.

french tank : RENAULT B1 Bis ... beautiful isn't it ?
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2442/b1bismourmelon02vq0.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5732/b1bismourmelon01rc0.jpg

other french tank in 1940: SOMUA S 35
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8489/2233712rcaan3.jpg

leitmotiv
08-25-2006, 11:30 AM
Cheers!

saumon831982
08-25-2006, 01:13 PM
If you are interested by french tanks in 1940 :

--> http://www.chars-francais.net/de1930a1940.htm

leitmotiv
08-25-2006, 08:12 PM
I have two Tamiya Char Bs and a Trumpeter Hotchkiss H-35 I intend to build very soon---and a 1:32 scale Hawk 75A, etc etc etc! Thank you very much for the information! I wish there were some excellent French aircraft for FS2004---especially a LeO or a Breguet.

Gros_boulet
08-27-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As far as I am concerned, if the Battle of France is done right with all the French, English, and German aircraft it should have (I personally crave for the MS 406, Bloch 152, LeO 46, Battle, and 110C), I'll require no more from the Maddox people---I will be content. I also hope he does the land, too. To go against the Panzers in a Char B or Hotchkiss H-35 would be fantastic.

french tank : RENAULT B1 Bis ... beautiful isn't it ?

other french tank in 1940: SOMUA S 35
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about a belgian T13-B2 tank hunter?
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/T13-B1frontside2.jpg

Or a T13-B3..

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/essai2.jpg

A T15

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/T15side2.jpg

And a ACG1.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/acg1_belgian_fronttop.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A blitzkrieg campaign in the West could be very interesting in the air and on the ground... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

DuxCorvan
08-27-2006, 10:41 AM
Nothing against pre-war Belgian military technology but...

...you can almost see the embarrasment in the face of this guy:

"Er... yes we have bigger ones. Powerful. Mighty. You have to see them. (Sigh...)"
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/T15side2.jpg

Gros_boulet
08-27-2006, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Nothing against pre-war Belgian military technology but...

...you can almost see the embarrasment in the face of this guy:

"Er... yes we have bigger ones. Powerful. Mighty. You have to see them. (Sigh...)"


You are right on that point, they had a tough moment in may 1940: unadapted equipment to face the german blitz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

The purpose of my post was just to show what the belgian army had at that time. Its little known even for the ordinary Belgians... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

saumon831982
08-27-2006, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Gros_boulet:

And a ACG1.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/acg1_belgian_fronttop.jpg



RENAULT AGC1 :

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/7827/acg101aa6.jpg

yessss beautiful ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

This AGC is besides a tank of French manufacture ( RENAULT ), bought by the Belgian army :
http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/renault_acg1.htm

Enforcer572005
08-29-2006, 08:19 PM
Ive always wondered why the Char B's hull mounted 75mm (a really bad idea actually) had such thick barrel walls....i mean, it looks like a napoleonic era cannon. It fired low pressure howitzer rds, so why would it have to be so thick, and apparently heavy? The US Lee had a hull mounted 75, but it wasnt that heavy looking.

Id much prefer the Souma.

Just wondering.

leitmotiv
09-01-2006, 12:58 AM
EXCELLENT QUESTION! I have no answer. The gun was controlled by the driver. Thus it was easy for him to line up a target using his steering controls. Supposedly its worst defect was the huge cooling vent on the left side of the hull which begged to be shot. The Somuas which went into Belgium beat the heck out the German tanks of an armored div they met---an event that very good English language historians note. Modern research shows the French armor won every time it had a chance to fight in an organized stand up battle with the Germans---unfortunately, many of the battles were with the French in positions of disadvantage due to lack of fuel, ammunition, or supporting arms after the German breakthrough at Sedan.

saumon831982
09-08-2006, 03:58 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9143/crw0068bc7.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/424/crw0389oi5.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5985/crw0391js9.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/253/crw0420cg5.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/628/crw0433me1.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4561/crw0500hn8.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/103/crw0594vo1.jpg

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3041/crw0593yi8.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/3931/crw0525ny3.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9573/crw0580sy4.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Gros_boulet
09-14-2006, 12:41 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

very nice pictures indeed... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Here is apicture I took of the Fairey Battle exposed at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels (its a former canadian Battle painted with the belgian colors I think):

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/Battle16_MRA.jpg

Gros_boulet
09-17-2006, 02:01 PM
I have a little request for the Belgians who live in the area of Gent, Ley river, West Vlaanderen, Leuven and the Ardennes.

Could you take some pictures of houses, churches,...(typical from those regions) that were built before 1940 and post them here (if possible all sides of the building)?

It would be nice to have a map of Belgium with buildings that look "belgian" on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

Arm_slinger
09-17-2006, 05:45 PM
Those things need a clean and polish...

Gros_boulet
09-18-2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
Those things need a clean and polish...

Well if you are talking about the aircrafts in the museum, well I am afraid you are right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I was also sadened by the dirt on the aircrafts and the pitty state of the building that houses them... Lack of funds I guess... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
They have a very nice little collection of aircrafts but it could be better presented.

Gros_boulet
09-26-2006, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Gros_boulet:
I have a little request for the Belgians who live in the area of Gent, Ley river, West Vlaanderen, Leuven and the Ardennes.

Could you take some pictures of houses, churches,...(typical from those regions) that were built before 1940 and post them here (if possible all sides of the building)?

It would be nice to have a map of Belgium with buildings that look "belgian" on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif No volunteer?

Philipscdrw
09-29-2006, 06:41 AM
One of the many features of Il-2 that really attracted me to the series was that it was simulating a 'forgotten' theatre of war, traditionally neglected by simulation engineers. I'd love to see the Battle of France in BoB.

The Fairey Battle could double as an advanced trainer aircraft for BoB, and be the basis of the FAA Fairey Fulmar in the MTO. The MS.406 was used by every airforce in the galaxy, it seems, and the D.520 (is that right?) was used as an advanced trainer by the Axis.

Flyable Battle and MS.406 should be medium-high priorities, I think. (I've got a thing about training campaigns in BoB...)

I love the way French aeronautical engineers went from putting wings on a cow-shed and calling it a bomber, to making incredibly sleek, elegent bombers, overnight!

saumon831982
09-30-2006, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
One of the many features of Il-2 that really attracted me to the series was that it was simulating a 'forgotten' theatre of war, traditionally neglected by simulation engineers. I'd love to see the Battle of France in BoB.

the D.520 (is that right?) was used as an advanced trainer by the Axis.



It's true...Dewoitine D.520 was used as advanced Trained by Germans and used in combat by Italians.

Trainer in Jagdwaffe
http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/1125/d520deutryi8.jpg

Hoarmurath
09-30-2006, 06:23 PM
It was also used in combat by bulgaria. It was used in combat by french free forces in 1944 and 1945.

They were used as aerobatics planes for airshows by french armee de l'air until 1953.

saumon831982
01-08-2007, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by russ.nl:
Is it still the Battle of France and the Low Countries? Or is it just BoF now?


Originally posted by MM-Zorin:
Did Maddox finally give you the specifications you need for the planes?

The project counts French, Dutch and the Belgians. But , we can't start work without specifications from BOB.

May be only when BOB would be ready.

Dewoitine D.520:
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2840/d520ig9.jpg
keep hope, guys ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

saumon831982
01-12-2007, 04:14 PM
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4012/d52001bc7.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

saumon831982
01-12-2007, 04:49 PM
Here a small game for community : what is this french plane ?

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2503/04240sz8.jpg

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/207/04241ea4.jpg

An idea ?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

russ.nl
01-12-2007, 05:57 PM
Ugly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif What do I win http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Something between L'Arsenal-Delanne 10 and le Brguet 690. I give up.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

PH-Valken@HP
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07010/banneruss2.png (http://xs.to)

saumon831982
01-13-2007, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by russ.nl:
Something between L'Arsenal-Delanne 10 and le Brguet 690. I give up.

lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ... something between AD 10 and Br 690 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif and the name? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1731/rys194yt3.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1544/rys193qe8.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9537/sncasese100kw0.jpg

An idea about name of this french plane? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

russ.nl
01-13-2007, 07:19 AM
I give up, I googled all the planes on this (http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/models/france.htm) site and I still don't know.

I didn't know the french had so many different planes. I learned something new today. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

PH-Valken@HP
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07010/banneruss2.png (http://xs.to)

harryklein66
01-13-2007, 10:48 AM
Try SNCASE SE 100 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/harry3.jpg

Aaron_GT
01-13-2007, 11:38 AM
An early Hurricane "model" is correct to be used in absolutly every theatre both ETO/PTO from the farthest northeren reaches, to the farthests south....and were no doubt used long into the war....

Didn't the Belgians have a version with 4 .50 guns? That would be interesting...

russ.nl
01-13-2007, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by harryklein66:
Try SNCASE SE 100 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The one plane that wasn't one the list http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

PH-Valken@HP
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07010/banneruss2.png (http://xs.to)

leitmotiv
01-13-2007, 10:00 PM
Wasn't this airplane designed for the same ground attack specification which was won by the Breguet 690 series?

saumon831982
01-14-2007, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Wasn't this airplane designed for the same ground attack specification which was won by the Breguet 690 series?

The SE 100 was a three-seater fighter (C3) and an assault version was envisaged (AB3).

SE 100 C3 remained at the stage of prototype and its original formula posed many problems of design and construction.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/123/se100ausoldx9.jpg

Wingspan : 15.70 m
Height: 4.28 m
Wing Area: 33.06 m2
Length : 11.80m
Crew: 3
Empty Weight: 5732 kg
Max Weight: 7678 kg
Armament 2*20 mm Hispano Suiza HS 404(+may be guns 7.5 mm) + 1 HS 404 of 20 mm for dorsal gunner
Engine type 2 * Gnome&Rhone 14 N 48/49
Engine power 2 x 1200 hp
Maximum Speed : 580 km/h at 5600 m.

Armament envisaged on SE 100 AB3 :
6 * 20 mm HS 404 and 1 HS 404 of 20 mm for dorsal gunner(+ 2 MAC 7.5 mm)

SE 100 was undoubtedly too advances some over its time (thus too complex) and it was an ingenior's dream.

Do you have an opinion?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

Gros_boulet
01-14-2007, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">An early Hurricane "model" is correct to be used in absolutly every theatre both ETO/PTO from the farthest northeren reaches, to the farthests south....and were no doubt used long into the war....

Didn't the Belgians have a version with 4 .50 guns? That would be interesting... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the belgian Hurricane Mk1 (the early version with canvas wings and a 2bladed screw) were bought directly from the UK, with UK's specifications (8 x Browning 0.33). 20 aircrafts were ordered, 15 were delivered (the remaining 5 couldn't be delivered because of the beginning of the war for Great Britain in September 1939). 4 british Hurricane Mk1 that had violated the belgian airspace (Belgium was still a neutral country) after September 1st 1939 were "interned" (with the agreement of the british government...): H-35, 37, 38 and 39. The H-39 had a 3 bladed screw.
In 1939, the Belgians bought a licence to manufacture the Hurricane Mk1 locally by the Fairey factory, near Charleroi. 80 aircrafts were to be built, armed with 4 x F.N. 0.5 machine guns, which were more powerfull and lighter than the Brownings. Only 2 aircrafts (the H42 and ?) were produced before the german invasion on May 10th 1940.

Due to landing accidents on badly prepared campaign airfields and due to engagements with foreign aircrafts having violated the belgian airspace (ex: H-26 flown by Lt X. Henrard was shot down by a Do-17 on March 2nd 1940), only 11 belgian Hurricanes were still servicable at the beginning of the german invasion on May 10th 1940. 9 were destroyed on the ground at Schaffen airfield at dawn of May 10th 1940.

Below: the H-42 during a test flight on May 9th 1940

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Gros_Boulet/H42_testflight.jpg

Aaron_GT
01-14-2007, 09:18 AM
Ah - so a .50 armed Hurricane I would be a very rare bird indeed! I think one so armed would have done better in the Battle of Britain than armed with 8 .303s, most likely.

saumon831982
01-16-2007, 10:41 AM
SNCASE SE 100 : http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4315/se100vudefaceky8.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

DustyBarrels77
01-16-2007, 05:10 PM
Back in FB AEP, i seen all these models were made for this game then for some reason they were not incorporated into the game, then the battle of france team worked on making them for BOB SOW: but the external models still looked like FBs low poly blocky quality.

I think even after BOB SOW is in development i hope the dev team decides to test out its 3rd party ac idea in fb aep fb first with stocks that cant be edited to find flaws first and if people are able to edit stocks.

This game really does need alot more wwii props flyable from france poland china.

Coming from this game going to BOB SOW will be such a bore factor from me... coming from this many ac maps etc to 1 theater, and with the new quality of cockpits and ac models, it will take much longer to develop ac.

I hope people stay interested in fb aep pf because of content ammount, as well as fly knights of the sky and bob sow. For people like me lack of content and only one front = boring real quick as I am one who enjoys all planesets and theaters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:M98REgPM-RPbEM:http://www.me-air-company.de/crash_gross/005.jpg

saumon831982
01-18-2007, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
SNCASE SE 100 : http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4315/se100vudefaceky8.jpg

Do you have an opinion about SE 100 ?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

For more informations about French Fighters in 1940 : (French Forum of Pacific Fighters)
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4434/yak3modifavecnom4zmegz5sx4ww.jpg

http://www.france-simulation.com/

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2650/saumonfpscj1.gif
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9089/saumonbofrp2.gif

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5967/teamprojetdfinitifpz2.jpg

russ.nl
01-18-2007, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by saumon831982:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saumon831982:
SNCASE SE 100 : http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4315/se100vudefaceky8.jpg

Do you have an opinion about SE 100 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I think, it looks like the designers were inspired by fish while designing this plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I gues this is the sort of plane you either love or hate.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

PH-Valken@HP
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07010/banneruss2.png (http://xs.to)

Marcel_Albert
01-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Yea well Saumon , IMHO , this aircraft was too difficult to operate , although it was ambitious at the time it was made , it was probably too expensive to build and complex to produce it massively .

Looking at the profile of the plane ,there are 3 seats , it might have been extremely fast compared to the aircrafts of that time , but it doesn't look to have been very manoeuvrable at high speeds and doesn't look to have been able to take severe punishment which could have been a serious problem for the ground attack version (i mean on top of the plane it's quite vulnerable ) , but i may be mistaken .

It's true i don't really like the plane externally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I much prefer this one :

http://www.aviaistorija.puslapiai.lt/kari1/Potez63.jpg

or the 1937 version (notice how Bf110 that comes later is similar ) :

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/bww2/pz633-i.jpg

Potez series http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

---------------------------------
"Non Nobis Domine , Non Nobis , Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam."
In Memoriam Jacques de Molay .

saumon831982
01-19-2007, 03:40 PM
For me :

Dewoitine D520
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4012/d52001bc7.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2522/chd5208mo.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9190/d520vol0ww.jpg

or

Bloch 157 : (ALMOST A FRENCH THUNDERBOLT with max speed = 710 km/h and armament envisaged 2x 20 mm + 4 x 7.5 mm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif)
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1962/bloch1573view1uv7px.gif

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/620/mb1575px5wo.jpg

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1053/mb15715en5yi.jpg

or

* Arsenal VG-33 (beautiful http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif) http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/entrer.htm )
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1333/vg33photo11gu0yz.jpg

or

* Arsenal VG-36 (1940 : motor Hispano-Suiza 12Y51 of 1000 Hp --> max speed 590 Km/h at 7000 m.+ armament : 1x 20 mm + 4 x 7.5 mm)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7554/vg360ow.jpg
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9246/vg36014aw2fe.jpg

or

* Arsenal VG-39 (1940 : Motor Hispano-Suiza 89ter of 1200 Hp --> max speed 625 km/h at 5600 m + armament : 6 x 7.5 mm in wings)
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/7924/vg396bm.jpg ( www.aviafrance.com (http://www.aviafrance.com) )
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3707/vg3913ck7vu.jpg

saumon831982
01-21-2007, 12:51 PM
Pages disappeared ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

I starts again :

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/72/b7p99783xk.jpg http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

saumon831982
01-28-2007, 02:00 AM
Bloch 152 : http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6419/bloch152c1p2cdak4.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4286/bloch152c1fcdlz0.jpg

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/995/bloch152c1pcdnv3.jpg

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4135/bloch152c1upcdks1.jpg

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/364/bloch152c1uncdii4.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It would be cool to have this plane in BOB ! Be sure ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

leitmotiv
02-01-2007, 08:22 AM
I would enjoy fighting a 109E with the Bloch---those two high-velocity 20mm cannons would be devastating!

saumon831982
02-01-2007, 08:38 AM
Well ,

Bloch 152 had a poor speed (max 480/500 km/h) but he had a better handiness than Me 109. Bloch could turn shorter than Me 109 and with its 2 guns of 20 mm (HS 404)... it was deadly ! Be sure !

Me Too, I would enjoy fighting a 109E with the Bloch ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

After the fall of France in June 1940, 2 Bloch 152 were in GB . British tested Bloch 152 and they don't be interested by plane but only very interested by the pairs of guns of 20 mm build by Hispano-Suiza (HS 404).The gun was modified then to be put on Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

Marcel_Albert
02-01-2007, 03:11 PM
Dont' know if it has been posted , but in this video , you see those planes fly Saumon :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647r7-qKlrA

MM-Zorin
02-01-2007, 06:29 PM
Have you received any feedback from 1C to your eMail inquiries yet?

I have seen at least 2 planes that are being build by non 1C employees so I don't know why you haven't already started.

saumon831982
02-05-2007, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Dont' know if it has been posted , but in this video , you see those planes fly Saumon :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647r7-qKlrA


Wonderful Video ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif thanks ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Originally posted by MM-Zorin:
Have you received any feedback from 1C to your eMail inquiries yet?

I have seen at least 2 planes that are being build by non 1C employees so I don't know why you haven't already started.

No contact with 1C for the moment ... but Mr Oleg Maddox seemed to be interested. So, wait BOB for more informations ! Be sure ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GerritJ9
02-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I made scans of Hugo Hooftman's D.XXI and G.1 booklets; they have already been sent to some interested parties (mainly in Finland and Holland), but if you are interested I will also send the scans to you- just PM me with your e-mail address. You will have to learn Dutch if you want to read them, though!

saumon831982
02-06-2007, 12:06 PM
<span class="ev_code_RED">The match: Bloch 152 against Me 109 </span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Insufficient perfomances</span>

Let us be clear: on the level,according to the type of engine, Bloch 152 loose between 60 and 80 km/h with Me 109; he climbs less better and ****** less quickly generally, penalized by a prohibitory frontal surface.

It suffers as reduced autonomy (still weak as that of Me 109, which it's not little to say) worsened by a greedy engine, not to say a pit, and of falls of chronic pressure Oil.

Considerable times in aerial combat, Me 109 escape in downing.Nothing of more logical: Bloch 152 reached to the maximum speed of 650 km/h in downing (600 km/h for Bloch 151) then Me 109 E exceeds the 700 km/h!

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/7216/mb1520183cc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

<span class="ev_code_RED">Qualities of Bloch 152:</span>

In addition to its solidity, the principal asset of Bloch resides in his handiness. Well not very lower than that of Morane MS-406, it remains sufficient to cause concern with omnipresent the "Emil" German.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4305/mb1520099fq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The pilots of l'Arme to l'Air are unanimous to recognize that Bloch 152 is an operational and pleasant plane, with the well harmonized orders and with excellent visibility.Il transfers remarkably well in evolutions, attentive before taking down in tight turn.The reversals in combat are without problem and the slow rolls pass well. The inversions can despite everything involve dangerous gimlets at low altitude because of depression of Bloch.

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4750/mb15150ga.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In combat, raftered pilots, "expert" who passed about thirty to the declaration of war, recommend to engage ennemi in ascending tight spiral, always in same the sens.En effect, to change direction is this wait ennemi and one passes then in his gusts.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2327/bloch152f4ti.png (http://imageshack.us)

June 6, 1940, a training of Bloch 152 of GC II/6 starts the combat against ten Me 109 at West of Roye.L'adjudant Laguet and the second lieutenant of Seynes draws on 3 Me 109 including one, touched in turn by a gust, down on fire; second is cut down by l'adjudant-Chef Deniau.
The following day, a light double patrol (4 planes) of GC II/10 returns at its base when a complete Gruppe of Me 109 spade on it coming from the sun.The French pilots succeed in transforming the general fray fights some whirling during which, they cut down 3 apparatuses ennemy.Henri Gille, pilot adjudant with the 3rd flotilla of GC II/10 in 1940, will say: " Me 109 had a method: they knew in whirling combat, one could have them. They were very long to transfer and with our Bloch one transfered very extremely and one could be able to put behind them... "
The superiority of Me 109 lies indeed in its speed.as much as possible, the German pilots attack in downing before going up to make a new passes.

http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/868/blochmb152smer2wn.png (http://imageshack.us)

<span class="ev_code_RED">Conclusion:</span>

With does a solid plane but flying less quickly, pricking less better and climbing more slowly than Me 109, than remain it with the pilots of Bloch 152 in 1940 to face their terrible adversary? Primarily their courage and hability to them, by hoping for a Messerschmitt ends up passing in their line of sight... in which case the Hispano guns (when they work)create lots of devastations.
It is enough surprising to note that the results of the confrontations Bloch 152/Me 109, drawn from the files of l'arme to l'Air and Luftwaffe, just emphasize a light superiority of the German hunter: 61 Bloch asserted (all confirmed) against 51 Me 109 (45 approved "sure" and 6 probable).These figures should not however be taken to an indicative title because the identifications are often approximate among Germans, for whom any fighter with radial engine and Curtiss H75 and any fighter with engine on line is Morane MS-406!

Bloch 152 of third escadrille GC II/1 in 1940 :
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/2116/mb151c15vs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

PS : sorry for bad translation french to english lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

triad773
02-06-2007, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Dont' know if it has been posted , but in this video , you see those planes fly Saumon :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647r7-qKlrA

NICE! Love Django soundtrack too! The Hot Club of Paris Trs bon! Very appropriate to the time.

saumon831982
02-07-2007, 07:04 AM
The match: Bloch 152 against Me 109

a comment ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

saumon831982
02-12-2007, 11:17 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif NO COMMENT ABOUT THE MATCH BETWEEN BLOCH 152 AND ME 109 ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

AMIOT 351 : a French Bomber in 1940

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/1175/a3511ga9.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7194/a3514mx4.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/7971/a351gbii341940qt0.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PERFORMANCES :
Wingspan : 22.83 m
Height: 4.08 m
Wing Area: 67.50 m2
Length : 14.50m
Crew: 4
Empty Weight: 4725 kg
Max Weight: 11 300 kg
Armament: one 20- mm gun Hispano-Suiza Hs-404 in the dorsal ring mount + two 7,5- mm of machine gun MAC and 1200 kg of bombs.
Engine type 2 * Gnome&Rhone 14 N 48/49
Engine power 2 x 1200 hp
Maximum Speed : 480 km/h
Cruise Speed : 380 Km/h
Autonomy : 2500 Km

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

stalkervision
02-16-2007, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
And don't forget the *****y little Dewoitine D500 & D510!

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Dice/2996/dewoitine-d-500.jpg

http://jnpassieux.chez-alice.fr/images/D500.jpg

http://www.odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum10/dewotine_510jpg.jpg
http://airwar.valka.cz/muzeum/francie/d_500/clipart/f_01.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/red_spain/aviones1/D-510.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh f-! don't remind me of that f--in plane. It has pasted my early model 109 in "luftwaffe commander" more then I can tell you... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

saumon831982
02-24-2007, 12:59 PM
Hh ... Stuka, you think? why not...but it's the French Loire-Nieuport LN401/411 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif : a French Dive Bomber in 1939/1940 ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Plane not used in French Air Force but used by French Navy in battle of France.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4568/ln4111ia2.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6392/ln4111pj0.gif

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9024/ln4112yq8.jpg

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/7457/ln4113ju8.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8181/ln4114tu3.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2383/ln411c1gf3.jpg

harryklein66
02-24-2007, 08:58 PM
"Plane not used in French Air Force"
They were used in May-June 40 by the AB2, AB4, and AB5

evildeathmo1989
02-25-2007, 08:14 AM
i really hope they can put the fokker G1 in..., it is one of the best dutch planes, the only one that could stand up to the luftwaffe. but there where to few in the dutch air force to make much of a difference.
the p-38 was based on the G1.

evildeathmo1989
02-25-2007, 08:32 AM
http://www.umt.fme.vutbr.cz/~ruja/modely/podklady/Fokker/Fokker-G1/G1.jpg

http://www.strangemilitary.com/images/content/109020.jpg

evildeathmo1989
02-25-2007, 08:34 AM
http://www.strangemilitary.com/images/content/109020.jpg

harryklein66
02-25-2007, 09:17 AM
And a Fokker T.V
http://home-4.worldonline.nl/~t716543/vliegtuigen/Aircraft026/213.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

russ.nl
02-25-2007, 10:06 AM
Of the Dutch airplanes that fought in the war those three we need!
The Fokker DXXI
http://xs112.xs.to/xs112/07080/04-1.jpg
The Fokker G1
http://xs512.xs.to/xs512/07080/fokker-g1-a.jpg
And the Fokker TV (hope there is enough info on that)
http://xs512.xs.to/xs512/07080/Fokker_T-V_RNAF.jpg

Ofcourse there are more Dutch planes that fought but I don't know how big this add-on will be. These I think are a must.

evildeathmo1989
02-25-2007, 10:52 AM
i agree with those 3 aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif i really hate the fact that in PF the dutch only have that crappy buffalo mk 1.. when in fact they hade there own aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

major_setback
02-28-2007, 03:49 PM
I have a book called 'French Aircraft 1939-1942'
It features some planes that might not have been mentioned yet in this thread. Some of these probably weren't used in the battle.

Breguet 482.
http://www.kheichhorn.de/html/body_breguet_482.html

http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/breguet482.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/bww2/br482-i.jpg

http://perso.orange.fr/amis.breguet/Images/Br%20482.jpg

List of Breguet aircraft ogf the period:
http://www.aviafrance.com/constructeur.php?ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=249

Breguet 693 (posted before I think)

http://www.aviafrance.com/image.php?im=16

SCNCAO 700?
http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/sncao700.jpg

Breguet 462?
http://perso.orange.fr/amis.breguet/Images/Br%20462.jpg

Breguet 270 :
100 of these were in service at the start of WWII.
They carried ourt missions over Germany in the first weeks of the conflict.
Stayed in front line service until March 1940, only 49 of them left in by July 1940
(info from the book I mentioned above) more information:
http://avia.russian.ee/air/france/breguet-270.php


http://perso.orange.fr/airtraditions/images/avions/docavia/breguet270a2_gar508.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6251/brguet270a27sb.jpg

http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/france/breguet-270.jpg

Bloch MB 700

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/fot/fot181.jpg

http://www.aviafrance.com/image.php?im=1581

Bloch MB 131:
http://avia.russian.ee/air/france/bloch_mb-131.html

http://www.aviafrance.com/image.php?im=4232

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5112/mb13132ya.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1070/mb13147kg.jpg

http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/france/bloch_mb-131.jpg

More French aircraft:
http://1939-1945.net/htm/000-020-009.shtml
I mostly like the Arsenal variants:

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/vb10-i.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/vg33-i.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/vg36-i.jpg

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/arsenalds_5.JPG


http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3707/vg3913ck7vu.jpg

http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Gvg33.jpg

And this one (some very nice renders):

http://lemog.free.fr/lemog_v5/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=0

http://lemog.free.fr/lemog_v5/albums/lemog/d520/09_big03.jpg

Tbag_13
03-06-2007, 01:10 PM
Hi everyone,

Jutocsa needs photos, drawings or other references about french buildings for BoB. I thought you might be able to help, please see here:

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&...4&page=1#Post2151814 (http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2151814&page=1#Post2151814)

tragentsmith
03-12-2007, 11:14 AM
This thread has to stay alive ! OLEG ! You have to make French birds, because it is a Forgotten Battle but an important one in the History !

GerritJ9
03-12-2007, 12:05 PM
For the BoF scenario, The Fokker D.XXI and G.1 would be important as flyable, the T.V and C.X would be sufficient as AI (though the C.X would be a fun flyable- and for the Finns too!). Actually the Dutch used quite a few of the planes in FB/PF; apart from the Buffalo (which did differ quite a bit from the Dutch B-339C and D) the Dutch also used the B-25, the B-24, Hawk 75A-7 (similar to the 75A-4), CW-21B, P-51D and K and others.

tragentsmith
03-13-2007, 07:06 AM
So this make us those planes as requests to be flyable :

France :

D520 (absolutely)
MS406

+ a 2 engine bomber and a one engine bomber :
Breguet 693
LN411

Rest can be AI planes.

Dutch

G1
D XXI

+ Maybe the Bomber

Would allready be great to find those planes.

Just the fighters would allready be a good start!

soloje
03-16-2007, 01:08 PM
do you like LEO 451

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03Q_Q2DlCc

saumon831982
03-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by soloje:
do you like LEO 451

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03Q_Q2DlCc

Ohhhh Yeahhhhh, wonderful ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif isn't it ?

soloje
03-17-2007, 03:10 AM
description of D520 in english from Docavia Book

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/soloje/D520/docavia1.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
03-17-2007, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by tragentsmith:
So this make us those planes as requests to be flyable :

France :

D520 (absolutely)
MS406

+ a 2 engine bomber and a one engine bomber :
Breguet 693
LN411

Rest can be AI planes.

Dutch

G1
D XXI

+ Maybe the Bomber

Would allready be great to find those planes.

Just the fighters would allready be a good start!

yep, IF this project will ever come to live - thier designers should most propably concentrate of some planes for the french airforce to make as flyable:

D. 520 as high performance fighter
Hawk 75A-3 an MS.406 as the "mass" fighters

Br.693 as a groundattack planes

LeO 451 as modern level bomber

this would propably give the french side a descent force to fight in online matches vs the flyable german planes.

Gros_boulet
03-17-2007, 05:28 AM
Another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647r7-qKlrA

saumon831982
03-18-2007, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Gros_boulet:
Another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647r7-qKlrA

Already seen before I believe ... but we love it ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

kirkncc1701
03-22-2007, 09:31 AM
Im doing a fall gelb section for my campaign. It uses the northwest eurpoe map as the border between holland & germany, then u fight in the ardennes for a bit, before conquering the rest of france in operation fall rot on the normandy map.

Since the fighting in these areas only amounts to about 12 days, there is easily enough french planes for my to use. However i have had to use a japanese plane as the fokker dxxi.

its coming along nicely tho, anyone know where to get a french voice pack? The french are really low budget with russian voices.

saumon831982
04-06-2007, 11:10 AM
Dewoitine D 520 : a beautiful plane ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3639/1er20vol20cev20or20ricccb2.jpg

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5782/d52003ph9.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5764/d52004fq3.jpg

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3753/d52005yn3.jpg

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8669/sanstitrenk8.png

Tromplamort
04-14-2007, 07:47 AM
Bump!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Stackhouse25th
04-15-2007, 05:54 PM
i support the battle of france addon if its even practical and possible

Rood-Zwart
04-15-2007, 07:52 PM
I would totally buy this without hesitation. ANY chance to fly a fokker G1 I would grab with both hands... I will look If i can find some good cockpit references etc...

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2007, 10:55 PM
Any word on Rola and his/her Poland addon for BoB And Beyond?

39 or something it was called.

here is the olde site, not working - http://www.9-1939.pl/

Irish_Rogues
04-16-2007, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Any word on Rola and his/her Poland addon for BoB And Beyond?

39 or something it was called.

here is the olde site, not working - http://www.9-1939.pl/

I always thought that campaign would be a lot of fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

saumon831982
04-22-2007, 08:33 AM
French ground assault plane : <span class="ev_code_RED">Brguet 693</span>

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4958/breouip2db8yw.jpg

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5564/breguet693017mh3wp.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7997/br693entrainement9ou4yq.jpg

Max speed : 480 km/h
Armor :
1 x Gun Hispano-Suiza HS 404 of 20 mm
4 x machine gun MAC of 7,5 mm (2 in noze and 2 for the gunner)
Bomb: 400 kg

Beautiful it's a wonderful ground assault plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif ... It would be very interesting to have it in SOW : BOB !! isn't guys?

Frenchminem
04-26-2007, 05:53 AM
Hello everybody !!

D'abord, spciale ddicace Saumon, pour ses efforts d'information sur la bataille de France!!! ses post sur les diffrents forums, pour essayer de motiver nos troupes, et donner aussi envie aux autres nationalits de piloter nos superbes avions.
(avant je m'etais lanc dans la cration d'une campagne de France pour EAW, et avait collct tout un tas d'info, sur les escadrilles, nomres d'appareil, types avions, et j'avais aussi recens tous les "protoypes", (VG, LN, se100 et autres...) sauf que je n'ai jamais vraiment finit... EAW etant ancien, et il y avait certaines limitations du jeu (nombres avions possibles, et avions a crer... super compliqu...) et limitations temporelles aussi...

Then, i can carry on in English, for everybody to understand.
Just wanna say that at the origins, IL2 was based on a new fresh theatre: Russian Theatre.. never recreated in plane simulations...
It was great flying new planes, in new places.
After was made the Forgotten battle, with an even more litle conflict, with original planes once again.
it was the start of the sage IL2, and the notorious of title was made from this.
ORIGINALITY, and, for sure, a good simulation behind too... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Lately was made Pacific fighters (a classic) and soon BOB (a great classic)...

Look like now they're notorious, they launch big productions, for big money?? (is the editor forcing such orientations??) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Anyway, Oleg promised to the community a new engine that will survive a loooong time. And be used for many projects.
SO, i hope, the addons will show some new FRESH theatres, back to the origins of IL2.

I must admit that i'm kinda disapointed to learn that North Africa will be the First addon on the rails...
Who was in north Africa??
Sure US and UK came with Operation Torch, and Germans arrived by the other Side, on Tunisia...
But, who was there before?? and DURING !!??

As it was said before, and repeated...
After the defeat, some pilots left for UK, some stay loyal to the country of Vichy in South part of remaining France, adn some a part was sent in north Africa, and Lebanon (landing in Luftwafe airfields in greece http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif if i remember well)

SO, all this to say that we gonna have a North Africa addon without any French planes? while there was there...
And is north Africa a bigger theatre than BOF??? (surely, some planes will be reused... yep... but, another terrain would have to be made...)

I think would be a better idea to release addons following the historical order...
Like poland, then France/Belgium/Holland, and then we can play again Battle of Britain, and, maybe then a North Africa scenario, before following with Normandy, and end of war...

(Greek scenario would be funny too... fly over acropole with Regia Aeronautica, or Greek gladiators!)

Hope the guys of 1c have such plans in their minds... for release several addons...