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View Full Version : Planes want to roll



Stafroty
01-27-2006, 07:15 AM
i cannot correct the roll effect (torgue) only with Rudder, i need ailerons as well to correct my plane to fly straight, it really eats my enjoyement of gaming as i have to all the time correct my stick and pedal positions, before this version of game , playability was nice, but not anymore,now its dangerous to type anything or your plane goes upside down, or you cannot even go in toilet for quick one. nothing, VIRTUAL pilot is tied to this sim totally as game begins, or he is dead.

So, is it possible to put somekind of autopilot, which can be programmed during the flight, like you can your AI wingmens. like to program it to take altitude with best climb rate of the plane, or go level flight straight, or such. would ease a bit of this flying and pilots would have time to go fetch new beer from frigde, go piss old beer out, etc. now this is too too much, as this isnt so Fun anymore, and it reduces itself by it. Game can be kinda realistic but do we really need this kind of realism? we just can imagine that we are taking alt when we are at toilet etc.

What you think guys? its not much away from experience, it just helps to enjoy it bit more, and it wont eat our gear, like pedals, stick potentiometers so much this way..

its just an idea and would definatly bring more enjoyement at least for me with this game. i cannot fly this sim anymore seriously, as i havent been in year. everyone think what wears off your enjoyement off this sim in real.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 07:15 AM
i cannot correct the roll effect (torgue) only with Rudder, i need ailerons as well to correct my plane to fly straight, it really eats my enjoyement of gaming as i have to all the time correct my stick and pedal positions, before this version of game , playability was nice, but not anymore,now its dangerous to type anything or your plane goes upside down, or you cannot even go in toilet for quick one. nothing, VIRTUAL pilot is tied to this sim totally as game begins, or he is dead.

So, is it possible to put somekind of autopilot, which can be programmed during the flight, like you can your AI wingmens. like to program it to take altitude with best climb rate of the plane, or go level flight straight, or such. would ease a bit of this flying and pilots would have time to go fetch new beer from frigde, go piss old beer out, etc. now this is too too much, as this isnt so Fun anymore, and it reduces itself by it. Game can be kinda realistic but do we really need this kind of realism? we just can imagine that we are taking alt when we are at toilet etc.

What you think guys? its not much away from experience, it just helps to enjoy it bit more, and it wont eat our gear, like pedals, stick potentiometers so much this way..

its just an idea and would definatly bring more enjoyement at least for me with this game. i cannot fly this sim anymore seriously, as i havent been in year. everyone think what wears off your enjoyement off this sim in real.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:16 AM
Many has readed this but no one has no opinion, till things chance, isnt it odd?

F19_Orheim
01-27-2006, 10:25 AM
A "level fly" as used in bombers in fighters would be appreciated

xTHRUDx
01-27-2006, 10:27 AM
Correcting for torque does require rudder and ailerons. That's what trim is for, it's just physics. Many versions back all aircraft used to have a level stabilizers which would give them straight and level flight but some poeple were exploiting this feature in spin scenarios so they took it out. I'd prefer back in myself.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 10:29 AM
i want more options http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif cos, we are not in real in planes, why should we suffer all the **** they did suffer? do we really have to piss in our pants if some wears them when flying or what? if some ppl are HC pilots, they they can be without using the auto pilot feature. but some of us would for sure appriciate that there would be somekind of autopilot, and i would vote for programmed auto pilot.

what you do if ur doorbell is ringing, door is locked and you are in air in coop mission, in somekind of online war mission? let ur plane go down while opening the door or just keep flyin?

Cmoon, make it easier for us. in earlier versions of game we sure had enough time to go open the door, now its impossible without losing plane or advantageous position http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 11:57 AM
Even worse, many planes that used to have aileron trim in this game, no longer do over the last few patches. I'm assuming they are considered fixes, but not being able to trim ailerons in many planes, is a hassle.

At least give us the option to trim planes on the ground before flying, for those that cannot be trimmed while in flight. This has been suggested many, many, many times before.

This would help with constant rolling of planes.

DaimonSyrius
01-27-2006, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
Cmoon, make it easier for us. in earlier versions of game we sure had enough time to go open the door, now its impossible without losing plane or advantageous position http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I see it, what you're asking amounts to 'Please make the full-difficulty options less difficult' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you set up a server with the 'easy' switches, you'll have planes that you can leave alone while you are on the phone or at the door... In the pre-4.x versions, you could quickly level the wings, or even set the plane in a bank and just leave it there for a while, and planes almost didn't need to be trimmed, remember?

On the other hand, let's consider why the planes need frequent control inputs in the later versions. My guess is that this a consequence of more complex interactions between the flight model parameters, because more secondary effects are being modelled now, like torque, P-factor, gyroscopic, etc. For instance, this is from the Readme_v402.rtf file:

New Features
Flight Model
- adjusted ground effect *
- adjusted gyro effect *
- Aerodynamic focus dependency on angle of attack *

and this is just a few, besides what was introduced in 4.01... particularly the torque, which brought the need for trim. They all interact with each other in the process to determine the plane's flight vector, they have to be reciprocally balanced and minor changes may have noticeable effects.

IMO, I like the need for trimming and more complex, sensitive handling, so I prefer to just include the toilet in the pre-takeoff checklists http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
When it's someone on the phone or at the door... Well, it's decision time, either stay playing online no matter what or leave the cockpit and emerge to reality. I try to leave the plane cruising straight towards the map limit, or bail out if other planes are around. A couple of times the interruption came when I happened the have the plane well trimmed and not in combat zone, and after a while it was still flying alright somewhere off the map, but I wouldn't expect it... Not much was actually lost, anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nevertheless, the options for easier settings are already there.

Cheers,
S.

P.S. Setting the fixed trims on the ground would be a great option, there must be a number somehwere in the code to specify what's the trim value of a 109 or 190... If only it could be made user selectable while arming the plane.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 12:51 PM
"As I see it, what you're asking amounts to 'Please make the full-difficulty options less difficult"

Answer: how does it make game easier, if i would go in toilet while autopilot handles the plane, so could do the exact the same as me, take alt, or level in direction? or just keep plane in air, did you have and slightest glue, that if enemy would find my plane while its in auto, that auto would still do its routine, takin alt in same vector? so it would be easy kill for someone?? it makes my life easier, not the game,. this is what you fail to understand here.


"Well, it's decision time, either stay playing online no matter what or leave the cockpit and emerge to reality."

yea, what if you are in campaign flight? you know those online campaign where some 20ppl fly the same mission in coop style of mission? what if some says? sorry i have to bail out cos my plane would otherwise crash in ground, just because i have to go to open the door for my friend.
why are you so bone head that auto pilot wont make anything difficult or easier IN game, for you, but it would make it easier in you REAL life to do something if needed?

"Nevertheless, the options for easier settings are already there."

am i asking for easier flying ? am i? again you FAIL to understand the point of this issue.

autopilot wont:
make you better pilot
wont shoot enemy down for you
clean your chair
open your door

so, if you are so hard core player (alone person with no friends who to open door for), you can be without using it or can you? isnt it up to you do you want to suffer because of game?

ECV56_Rolf
01-27-2006, 12:54 PM
Planes that are now without trim, don't they behave as having a cruise speed/torque in which trim is not needed?

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 01:12 PM
Yes Rolf, certain plane's trims are set for cruising speed. However, trimming due to damage is one example where I'd like to have the ability to trim a dragging wing.

Bremspropeller
01-27-2006, 01:13 PM
Pre-trimming a plane before take-off (even the non-trimmable ones) would be absolute nonsense since any trim-setting only works for a very limited speed-range (say 50kph).

Look at the 109 or the 190 - they will fly without a slip-attitude at speeds between 350 and 400 (as I recall, speed range may be a little below or above this value), which is their cruise speed. the planes were designed (=&gt; pre-trimmed by the ground-adjustable trimtabs) to fly straight at cruise-speed, not below and not above that speed.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 01:17 PM
This thread is not about trimming the plane, not about trims at all. its just for autopilot which for sure, keeps plane in air. put up another thead about trimms, dont use this one.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 01:18 PM
is the gruise speed that speed where plane has most long range ?

Nubarus
01-27-2006, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
is the gruise speed that speed where plane has most long range ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Long range with decent speed is what cruise speed is yes.
And if you keep your throttle in cruise speed you can trim aircraft for level flight, even those without aileron trim.
So you don't have to be fused to your seat if you cruise towards a target area.

But it still won't help any if you get bounced while you are in the toilet or open the door though.

berg417448
01-27-2006, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
is the gruise speed that speed where plane has most long range ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That would be what is often called "Economical Cruise speed". I may be wrong, but I think cruise speed for fighters is usually though of as "combat cruise speed". For example, one source lists the cruise speed for the FW-190 A-8 as 480 kph and the FW-190 D-9 is given as 518 kph cruise.

Stafroty
01-27-2006, 04:21 PM
but back in business, i dont want to "trim" my plane before i went to open door or go toilet for brown one, i want autopilot that makes plane do what i want, if its climbing, so be it, if its just going at one direction with current alt, so be it. if someone bounces me while im working for "it", there you go, you get kill but not salute http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif everyone is happpy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

right?

Nubarus
01-27-2006, 04:29 PM
I fear you don't really understand that you will never get that particular auto pilot option and that you simply have to learn how to use the trim option.

Like I said, you CAN trim the plane for level flight so you can LEAVE your desk WITHOUT diving into the ground.

When I have to fly long distances I am usually reading a book with the occasional glace at the screen to check my position.

And I hardly ever fly a plane that has aileron trim and my plane doesn't roll like yours.
So it's safe to say that the issue is not the torque but your lazyness to learn how to adjust speed and apply rudder trim to maintain level flight.

Besides, you can also trim your plane for a constant climb.
So basicly everything you want with the auto pilot option can be achieved with trim.

Kuna15
01-27-2006, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
A "level fly" as used in bombers in fighters would be appreciated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

SlickStick
01-27-2006, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Pre-trimming a plane before take-off (even the non-trimmable ones) would be absolute nonsense since any trim-setting only works for a very limited speed-range (say 50kph). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, but I'd like to be able to choose the speed at which the plane is trimmed is all. I am rarely flying around at cruise speed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DaimonSyrius
01-27-2006, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
it makes my life easier </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Making life easier in that sense is not what I expect from a flight sim, but maybe that's just me... but let's not discuss life, that would be too broad a topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So let's imagine for a moment that the online fliers have a key that can be hit at any time and will keep automagically your plane flying safely, that's what the autopilot should do, isn't it? How would the system prevent that someone hit that key as a trick to gain a safe exit in a critical situation? That's the main problem I see. In any case, it should be a server option, and we would see how many servers would actually set the autopilot switch.

Anyway, in your second post on this thread you were asking everyone to give opinions... That's what I have done, just said my opinion, and explained my reasons. If we disagree, so be it, that's what discussions are for, sharing opinions and reasons.

Cheers,
S.

ECV56_Rolf
01-28-2006, 03:14 PM
A level flight key for just in case is not that bad idea.

When flying some long missions in the pacific, (2Hours) you have too much way to go keeping the plane leveled.

Stafroty
01-28-2006, 08:34 PM
yea, and if ppl dont like that autopilot, but want to hold stick all that time they can, but if there is some who dont like to be controllin it all the time, as it eats our gears, then we would use em, both party happy, yea. or is here ppl who cannot control what they do and what they dont want to do but do anyways? is that the question.

still, i see ppl dont understand what i mean. they talk about trims etc. well, quess what, all the planes dont have trims. and even better, it sure takes time to make plane leveled and go in right speed for it to use its gruise speed trim. yea..

make a timer on that autopilot then, 4 mins and its off or something like that, so you can make quick poop, put cofe on fire etc. im talking about gettin life easier, not sim. its not away anyhow from my skills if i would use auto while im off, or would it? why should one or many suffer cos of sim does not allow us to leave comp for a sec without extra non necessary work.

its still a game ,not another dimension you know? some of us take is as real, and those have serious problems.

WWMaxGunz
01-29-2006, 12:39 AM
There was some guy who wrote a devicelink program that didn't quite hold a bomber straight
and level. IIRC it dropped alt slowly. He ran into problems with data timing, IMO. It's
not as easy as it would seem.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 02:44 AM
well, they were able to do this FM so they sure know exactly the timings and speeds when plane does what. =)

ECV56_Rolf
01-29-2006, 07:57 AM
Anyway, trimming is not that effective. You don't need to correct all the time, but after a while you must allways give some correction. Trimming is no level flight, it is easyer flight.

And yes, bombers have level flight coded, so it is not new programing, more so it was present at the start of FB on all planes, then it was removed from all planes and placed back later only on bombers.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 09:58 AM
and was the first IL-2 series best of these all? i say yea,. now this game has went in direction where only hardcore players are left. is that what we want? that we fly online still alone in empty servers cos game demands from our real life too much that we lost our enjoyement from the game.

ATLAS_DEATH
01-29-2006, 11:55 AM
Using a HOTAS setup with rotators makes trimming a 1-3 second deal... that isn't too bad is it? And I think you poop too much.

Stafroty
01-29-2006, 04:49 PM
ok, give money for every pilot who seems trimmin to be problem so they can buy those same hotas things. i myself have hotas gear as well.

Atlas death just proved one point more, that no matter if some planes doesnt have trimms, you still can trim them with your gear etc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Deaths comment isnt valid and isnt about the idea.

ECV56_Rolf
01-29-2006, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stafroty:
and was the first IL-2 series best of these all? i say yea,. now this game has went in direction where only hardcore players are left. is that what we want? that we fly online still alone in empty servers cos game demands from our real life too much that we lost our enjoyement from the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Level flight wasn't present on IL-2. It appeared with He-111 and TB-3.

Having a level flight button is no hardcore setting, it was removed and it was placed again for a function that it is far away from hardcore.

Putting a level flight option on fighters won't give any advantage on combat(actually if you are jumped up while you are out, you will probably receive a heartfulll thank for the wrapped gift!) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but putting this on bombers is a great difference, more so if the original plane doesn't have this feature.

So putting this only on bombers being hardore? no way...

Enabling the sollution for bombers and not for fighters... probably just a confusion with so many people asking for opposite paths.

CyC_AnD
01-30-2006, 03:31 AM
You want plane fly straight?
Hold it still for a sec with joy and pedals, and press shift+tab. Plane will be uncontrollable with joy then and will continue to fly staight. Little training and here you go. You can again go for a bear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I use this sometimes when I have to go to desktop...
cheers

I forgot to add. If you want your control back press shift+tab again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Stafroty
01-30-2006, 10:53 AM
CYC_And, yea, heard that too after i made this thread, useful, but still it takes bit time to make it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and other problem is that you cannot turn your head while doin that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif