View Full Version : Hurricane vs Zero/Oscar tactics. Please help!

09-26-2006, 10:56 PM
Offline I am constantly getting my @rse handed to me flying the Hurri IIc against the Zero in the Singapore (RAAF) campaign.

B&Z doesn't seem to be much of an option in the Hurri since the controls are so unresponsive at high speed and I can't even run away since even a betty bomber has a better cruising speed at any given altitude.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

09-26-2006, 11:13 PM
Always stay in groups of friendly aircraft. Teamwork (beam defense, etc) is key. You can take a few hits and survive, you lay gloves on a zeke, and he's a burning wreck instantly.


09-27-2006, 12:04 AM
Maybe that is the point.......Imagine being there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

09-27-2006, 03:02 AM
In a hurri... well, there is not much options you have. Hurri is utterly inferior to zeke. So the only option is, like Tater pointed out, to rely on teamtactics, trying to exploit their great vulnerability.

09-27-2006, 03:07 AM
vs Oscars, you can just (but only just) outrun them on boost.

09-27-2006, 04:32 AM
You are discovering the hard way what RAF pilots did in 1942- that the Hurri is in almost all aspects inferior to the A6M2. The only advantages over the A6M2 are heavier firepower (I prefer the IIB), rugged construction, higher top speed at altitude (but it accelerates like a slug) and greater dive. Hit and run are the only real options open to you.
Against Oscars, you are on slightly safer ground- certainly with their popgun armament they can't do the damage the A6M2 can with its 20s; use hit and run on them too just to be safe.
I am flying the new Hurricane Singapore campaign and initially I used the tactics I use with the Buffalo and got chopped to pieces for doing so. So far 5 kills (not counting those I lost after getting clobbered), but got whacked 6 times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif. With the Buffalo I could get away with turning with the A6M2- not so in a Hurri. No wonder that 67 Sqn pilots, using Buffalos in Burma, considered the Hurri a dog after they had flown it.
The outer two 303s were removed from each wing on Singapore area IIBs to improve climb rate and manoeuverability (leaving eight 303s as armament) but that field mod isn't available in the sim unfortunately.

09-27-2006, 02:33 PM
Ever wonder why the best books on the Allied air ops vs the Japanese in Malaya and the Netherlands East Indies are titled BLOODY SHAMBLES, or why the best book on AAF fighter ops in the Philippines is titled DOOMED AT THE START?! Only the Allied units in Burma had a good run against the Ki-27s. The AVG continued to do well against the Ki-43. Hurricane pilots had to struggle on through 1942 in the Med and through the end of the war in Burma. The Dutch Brewster pilots actually put up a very good show against the A6M2 over Singapore and the NEI. There are no easy answers. Play to your strengths and pray.

P.S. Singapore Hurricanes were all IIBs---if they gave you IICs, they erred. The IIB was livelier and faster than the IIC with those four cannon.

09-27-2006, 02:48 PM
The japanese are SUPPOSED to overwhelm you and hand the brits their butts on a silver platter in Singapore.

You cant win the Singapore campaign, or put up anything that looks like a fight.

09-27-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Offline I am constantly getting my @rse handed to me flying the Hurri IIc against the Zero in the Singapore (RAAF) campaign.

B&Z doesn't seem to be much of an option in the Hurri since the controls are so unresponsive at high speed and I can't even run away since even a betty bomber has a better cruising speed at any given altitude.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
BNZ is actually your only option. The Hurricane is beautifully handling but not exceptionally sensitive. So you really have to lead and guess their positions. Dive in, attack, and try and climb.

Running nor turning are options.

Be sure to use the second stage supercharger above 2700m and WEP when you need that extra boost of speed.

09-27-2006, 03:33 PM
Trying to outclimb the A6M2 or Ki-43-I, even with a lot of steam from a dive is not a good way to survive against them---best to make one fast pass and streak by heading for the basement and put a great deal of distance between you and they. Boring, but this is what the Wildcat pilots learned. As usual---everything depends on circumstances. If you have a chance to wreak havoc against a Japanese fighter which fumbled, seize the opportunity. Hit the Betty from head on, or tear into it with a high side attack. Either way, you have an excellent chance of sending it to the nether regions without getting hit. Going up the six is suicide.

09-27-2006, 03:59 PM
Interesting. I was considering doing a campaign like this in the Hurri. Glad it`s authentic to reality.

09-27-2006, 05:31 PM
I thought it lame and weak on history (G4M1s escorted by a handful of A6M2s and Ki-43s)---please do a proper one, SeaFireLIV!

09-27-2006, 07:37 PM
You all need to really look into the amount of air combat that went on in Malaya/Singapore.....If I recall correctly many of the British planes were still in crates and such in the early part, the Japanese for the most part in the air unopposed.

But am no expert on the subject to be sure.....

09-27-2006, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Trying to outclimb the A6M2 or Ki-43-I, even with a lot of steam from a dive is not a good way to survive against them---best to make one fast pass and streak by heading for the basement and put a great deal of distance between you and they. Boring, but this is what the Wildcat pilots learned. As usual---everything depends on circumstances. If you have a chance to wreak havoc against a Japanese fighter which fumbled, seize the opportunity. Hit the Betty from head on, or tear into it with a high side attack. Either way, you have an excellent chance of sending it to the nether regions without getting hit. Going up the six is suicide.

Thanks, I think this is the way for me.

Many thanks to all who have posted here your advice confirms what I had suspected relating to the inferiority of the Hurricane in this theatre, I had no idea.

All the time I am flying this campaign I keep thinking... 'Those poor bastards'.

I have never been so totally and utterly outclassed. I usually I score a kill a mission at least, it was 3 missions before I knocked down an Oscar and I won't go near a Betty or a Zero at all if I don't have to. Betty gunners seem to be rather good at headshots from 650 metres and setting up a head on pass is usually out of the question due to their speed. I have found a weakness in their landing pattern though so if I get the chance I shadow them back to base and make a quick run before the flak wakes up.

Air to ground is a different story, the hurri seems ideal for strafing if you get the light AAA on the first pass with bombs. I have noticed that damage to AAA sites endures for a while and have been luck enough to be assigned a GA mission on an airfield after having taken out 3 of 5 light AAA sites. The remaining 2 were a piece of cake and I strafed at my leisure after that. Hopefully this will effect the campaign but I don't know if the model extends that far.

09-28-2006, 12:32 AM
I feel your pain. The Japanese had a good run up until Guadalcanal when the Marines gave them plenty of grief thanks to radar, tactical discipline, the firepower of the Wildcat, the tactical limitations the Zero pilots were under (had to fight with drop tanks attached), the terrible tactical discipline of the Zero pilots (fought individually, still used 3 plane sections), and the latent weaknesses of all Japanese aircraft which became apparent vs the Marines. I heartily suggest you find an excellent 1942 Marine Wildcat pilot at Guadalcanal campaign and give the Japanese bistids some of the stuff they have been dishing to you. Cheers, Joe Foss

09-28-2006, 12:52 AM
BLOODY SHAMBLES (2 volumes), HURRICANES OVER SINGAPORE, and BUFFALOES OVER SINGAPORE are the indispensible volumes for understanding the Malayan and Netherlands East Indies campaigns. The title of the first sums it all up---the British, who should have known better since they had been instrumental in developing the Japanese Navy and the Japanese naval air force, completely underestimated the Japanese. Churchill's folly knew no bounds---he thought a new British battleship and an ancient battlecruiser would prevent an attack on Malaya or destroy the attackers if one was made. Both were handily dispatched in a humiliating debacle which spelt the end of British prestige in the Orient forever. Hundreds of Spitfires were sitting on airfields in Britain doing nothing much except getting clobbered by the Luftwaffe in 1941. Instead of sending some of these, the Govt sent Buffaloes, many of which were not combat ready in Dec 1941, nor were their pilots or squadrons. It was truly a bloody shambles. It all went back to imperial over-extension. In the '30's the British Govt recognized they could muster the resources to fight either Germany, Italy, or Japan, and not two at once, and decidedly not three. They bet the farm they would only have to fight Germany, and lost bigtime. The British Empire could not afford WWII---it was a catastrophe for it.

09-28-2006, 03:12 PM
The best works on the SE Asia campaigns from the Dutch perspective are written by P.C. Boer, but unfortunately they have never been translated into English: "De Luchtstrijd rond Borneo", "De Luchtstrijd om IndiŽ" and "Het verlies van Java". One of the surprises for me was that over West Java the CW-21B and Brewster pilots would have no hesitation in dogfighting with Ki.43s whereas Hurricane pilots would use "Boom and Zoom" if at all possible and try to avoid dogfighting with the Oscars. Earlier the CW-21Bs had been chopped to bits over East Java and for a time they were ordered to avoid combat with Japanese fighters. It was not until the wreck of a Ki.43, shot down over West Java, was examined that it was realized that there were TWO Japanese fighter types, not one, and the order was rescinded. The A6M2 appeared almost exclusively over East Java whereas the Ki.43 (and Ki.27) operated over West Java. Brewster pilots found that they could even turn with the Ki.43 if their fuel load was 50% or less, though climb rate was inferior.
One of the Dutch pilots who flew first CW-21Bs and later Hurricane IIBs said "the Interceptor could outclimb the A6M2, but could not outturn it; the Hurricane could do neither." And Adolf Galland, interviewed by the RAF post-war, said "The Hurricane was hopeless- a nice aeroplane to shoot down."
Great things were expected of the Hurricanes when they arrived in Singapore, but they could by no means live up to the expectations.
All you can do in a Hurricane is do your best, but expect nothing.

09-28-2006, 03:29 PM
Fascinating. I hope they appear in English someday. Was it not true that several Dutch Buffalo pilots did very well against the Zeros?

09-28-2006, 03:38 PM
I flew the same campaign, and it truely is an eye opener.

Any of the Japanese early war birds are bad news to the Hurri. B&Z is pretty much it for the Hurri against the Japanese, like the previous posters suggested, and while high altitude performance is better, the Japanese planes climb like mad and have much better power to weight, meaning they can climb up and build E quickly.

The only successful extension tactic is to dive dive away and run, the Oscar in particular cant keep up. One other thing to consider though, against the Zero, the A6M's roll rate isnt that hot to begin with, and in a high speed dive is non-exsistant, so if you have a persistant Zero dogging you through a dive, a quick barrel roll will often cause him to overshoot if he is right on top of you (since the Hurri bleeds speed so quickly).

If your flying online against a decent Zero or Oscar pilot, your in trouble. The only advantage the Hurri has is top speed above 5000m, the down side is the Oscar has a slightly higher ceiling against the IIb and signifigantly higher against the IIc.

No matter online or off, the big problem is that the Hurri bleed E in manuvers like flying anvil, and the Japanese planes can instantly exploit that. Hurricanes vs Oscars/Zeros is an endurance and patience game, with the odds heavily in favor of the Japanese.

The Oscar might not be fast, but it accellerates VERY quickly, and can surprise you how fast you can pickup speed coming out of a turn fight.

09-28-2006, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Fascinating. I hope they appear in English someday. Was it not true that several Dutch Buffalo pilots did very well against the Zeros?

Yep, the Dutch Buffalo's did very well against the Japanese in comparison to the Brit Buffs, but that had a great deal to do with how overloaded the British Buffaloes wound up being due to additional ammunition, safety, and navagation gear that the RAF decided to stick on them after the plane had already been accepted.

Many of the British pilots complained about the negative effects to handling this caused, in many cases the pilots unofficially lightened the birds up by discarding equipment.

The Dutch did not modify the planes, so they were several hundred pounds lighter than the comparable British birds, and had much better results.

09-28-2006, 04:12 PM
I am doing a Dutch Buffalo as soon as MPM releases their 1:32 scale export Buff!

09-29-2006, 03:14 AM
The missions I have flown so far in that campaign are all at low altitude and this is where the Hurricane's disadvantages are particularly hurting. Over 5,000 metres (16,000 ft) you have a fair speed advantage over the Ki.43s which get bigger as altitude increases and they can easily be avoided. The A6M2's speed is also less, but not significantly so. At altitude, dive for the deck as fast as you can- chances are, if they try to follow they will break up. Both opponents have a significantly lower max dive speed and I have seen them lose a wing a couple of times trying to follow me down (easy kill, but you are not credited with it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ).
As an aside, I am modifying the relevant missions slightly- replacing the IICs with IIBs. Mainly because IICs did not serve in Singapore but also because the twelve 303s are a better bet against the nimble Japanese fighters than the four 20s, and also because of the slightly better performance of the IIB. Against the A6M2 and Ki.43s, you need every ounce of extra performance.
Up to seven kills, but eight planes lost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

09-29-2006, 10:09 AM
Well done!

09-29-2006, 01:53 PM
Kills so far were: A6M2 on first mission, no loss. He (rather stupidly) pulled up in front of me and twelve 303s simply tore him to bits.
Four G4M1s (had to refly scramble mission several times, being either hit by G4M tail gunners or jumped on by A6M2s); best way to tackle G4M1s is head-on attack- twelve 303s can do a lot of damage! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Two D3A1s: very manoeuverable but also burns very easily like most early war Japanese planes- hit the first and it burst into flame immediately; the second was more difficult as the D3A1 can outturn the Hurri. This one cost me all my remaining ammunition, crashed smoking heavily with stopped prop.

09-29-2006, 02:27 PM
My favorite antidote to bombers is a scorching high deflection, high side attack, which, if executed properly, allows you to savage the bomber without chance of harm, and, if your aim is true, rip the target severely or terminally.

The D3A1 can sometimes be a problem because of its gunner and because of the AI pilot's propensity to dump bomb and go after the offending fighter.

09-30-2006, 02:18 AM
Up to 11 kills now; add two Ki.43s and two A6M2s. The Oscars were sheer hard work and luck, in comparison the A6M2s were "easy". Lost three more planes though- one shot down by a Ki.43, one in a head-on collision with an A6M2 and one was pilot error- tried to avoid an A6M2 ripping me apart at low altitude, forgot that a Hurri can't turn like the Buffalo, stalled and crashed before I even had a chance to take correcting action http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
11 kills and 11 lost so all square- a bit better I suppose.

Recommended Singapore/NEI Hurricane reading are: "Hurricanes over Singapore" by Brian Cull and two books by Terence Kelly: "Hurricane over the Jungle" and "Battle for Palembang".

09-30-2006, 05:12 AM
Will get the Terence Kelly volumes, have HURRICANES. Maybe a P-40E over Java will help your kill/loss ratio!

09-30-2006, 09:59 AM
Have tried the P-40E against the A6M2 several times in BH-21's missions but the results are only slightly better than the Hurri's. It has pretty much the same problems as the Hurricane: poor climb rate, doesn't turn, accelerates like a slug and has only slightly better rearward view, though it does have better top speed- once you get there that is. I'd love to try one over Java, but we need a map of Java for that unfortunately.

09-30-2006, 11:42 AM
If you have a chance to build up steam in the P-40E or P-39D/P-400, you can have an interesting time tearing at A6M2s or Ki-43-Is, and they have the firepower to instantly foreclose either of the Japanese. The Buff is the most interesting play. I wonder which Buff the sim favors---the overloaded RAF model or the light Dutch model? It definitely has four .50s which really rule it out for the RAF. To me it seems to fit the profile of the Dutch machine.

09-30-2006, 02:50 PM
There were three Dutch versions of the Brewster: the first 24, B-395 to B-3118 were the B-339C, with an 1100 hp Cyclone. These had two .50s in the wings and two .30s in the nose, plus the capability to carry two 50 kg bombs. The second version was the B-339D, B-3119 to B-3166, with a 1200 hp Cyclone but otherwise similar to the C. All of the Cs and all but one of the Ds (B-3119) were delivered. The Dutch versions were some 250 kg lighter than the RAF Buffalo Mk. I and as a result had better overall performance than their RAF counterpart, especially the D. The Dutch had ordered all 72 with 1200 hp Cyclones but they were not available and the first 24 had to be fitted with 1100 hp engines.
The final batch of 20 were the B-339-23 variant. These were externally similar to the USN's F2A-3 (with its longer nose) and had four .50s but were otherwise similar in equipment to the other Dutch versions. Because of a lack of 1200 hp engines they were equiupped with 950 hp Cyclones - the same engine that powered the F2A-1/Finnish B-239 and performance suffered badly. These, and B-3119, never reached Java because of the surrender on March 8th 1942 and ended up in Australia, being first seized by the USAAF and later transferred to the RAAF. Fortunately this hopelessly underpowered version never saw combat.
The model in the sim is the Mk. I, recognizable by its oval panel on the port side of the cockpit canopy- unique to the RAF machines. The four .50s was the armament originally fitted, with 500 r.p.g. For some reason Oleg saw fit to slash the wing guns' ammo load by half in a patch (4.0? 4.02? can't remember exactly) so it has 250 r.p.g. for the wing guns now and 500 for each nose gun. The RAF tried desperately to improve the performance by removing all "necessary" equipment such as flare chutes, cutting fuel load to 60% except for long-range missions, halving ammo load and in some cases fitting 303s in place of the 50s. The result was a machine that was some 1,000 lbs lighter than a stocker, with a considerable increase in rate of climb and drastically improved manoeuverability. It is not known how many were RAF Buffs fully modified but certainly it became standard practice to use the 60% fuel load. This still gave the Buff a decent range- greater than a Hurri with full fuel load.
Four ex-Commonwealth Buffs (Singapore survivors) were handed over to the KNIL around Feb. 26th 1942 but never saw action with the Dutch. They were handed over without radios and in poor condition and in early March the KNIL ground staff started work to fit radios and bring them up to Dutch standard. Two were so badly damaged in a Japanese air raid on Andir that they had to be written off and the remaining two (one of which was ex- 21Sqn RAAF, W8163: GA-P; the identity of the other is unknown) were captured by the Japanese at Andir.
The KNIL ordered their machines to be fitted with reflector gunsights, pilot armour (though not to the excessive scale as the RAF), armour glass windscreens and self-sealing fuel tanks but due to varying delivery schedules by Brewster's subcontractors most arrived in Java without some or all of the specified goodies and these had to be retro-fitted by KNIL ground staff. All in all the KNIL Brewsters were a totally different animal to the RAF Buffs (or, indeed, the US F2A-3, the only US version to see combat).
The Buffs in the sim are all a bit undermodelled as far as speed at altitude is concerned- the B-239 is about 20 kph slower than it should be at 5000 metres, the Buffalo Mk. I should be about 30-40 kph faster and the F2A-2 about 40-50 kph. Sea level speed seems to be OK though. The F2A-2 had about the same performance as the Dutch B-339D and several USMC pilots would have preferred the F2A-2 (note: NOT the F2A-3 which was porked as badly as the Buffalo Mk. I) at Guadalcanal to the F4F-3. Reasons for the USN and USMC to select the F4F-3 over the F2A were partly political (the Buff was a convenient scapegoat and got the blame for the loss of Malaya) but had mainly to do with production facilities. Brewster's antiquated factory, compounded by extremely bad management, simply could not supply F2As in the number required by the USN whereas Grumman could supply the F4F-3.
It should also be noted that 67 Sqn, who were the first to receive the Buffalo while in Singapore and were later transferred to Burma, preferred the Buffalo (once they had sorted out its bugs) to the Hurricane IIB.

09-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the pukka gen, Gerrit! A request: name the best-documented published Dutch sources for Dutch Buffalo information---I need high-quality photographs and accurate color drawings because I have a definite desire to do several Dutch Buff models. And, please tell me the best place to buy the item(s). As far as is known, who was the most successful Dutch Buff pilot, and who was the most successful Dutch pilot in the NEI campaign? Will have to study Dutch!

09-30-2006, 11:54 PM
The D3A1 can sometimes be a problem because of its gunner and because of the AI pilot's propensity to dump bomb and go after the offending fighter.

Which is quite accurate to their behavior historically. Many an F4F fighter was surprised to see a D3A turn INTO him in an attempt to dogfight, and on occasion, Allied fighter pilots observing this aggressive behavior (and failing to note the fixed gear and rear gunner) identified them as Zeros. Of course, these tactics usually ended badly for the Val, but they still kept trying.

10-01-2006, 12:18 AM
Yes it is---witness HIRYU D3A1s at Midway. However, they all didn't chuck their bombs. The amazing thing about that brawl was that you had bomb-carrying D3A1s attempting to use classic fighter maneuvers on the amazed Wildcats---and succeeding in giving them a hard time. PF's craven AI chucks bombs before engaging.

10-01-2006, 02:32 AM
Best source for colour schemes (for ALL Brewsters) is without a doubt "Le Brewster Buffalo" by Jean-Louis Couston. It is in French but drawings and photos have English captions as well. ISBN is 2-914017-25-1, publisher ”įditions Lela Presse. "F2A Buffalo in action" by Jim Maas is the best English-language work available, though not as comprehensive as "Le Brewster Buffalo" though the latter requires a working knowledge of French (unfortunately, mine is at the level of Miss Piggy's....).
Profile 217 and the Kagero book are nice to have but inaccurate in several respects.
For operational history of the Dutch Brewsters (and the ML-KNIL in general), P.C. Boer's books can't be beaten: "De Luchtstrijd rond Borneo" deals with Dutch operations over Borneo and "De Luchtstrijd om IndiŽ" covers the other areas including Singapore. Both are in Dutch with brief summaries in English and Bahasa Indonesia but are long out of print(published in 1987 and 1989), though occasionally second-hand copies turn up. Sadly, neither was ever fully translated into English. The same applies to P.C. Boer's most recent book "Het verlies van Java" which was published a few months ago, but unlike the other two does not even have a summary in English (let alone Bahasa Indonesia).

10-01-2006, 02:50 AM
Regarding the most successful Dutch Brewster pilot(s) and the most successful Dutch Brewster pilots in the NEI, since the Brewster only served in the NEI with the Dutch, they are one and the same http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!
Capt. J.P. van Helsdingen and 1st. Lt. G. Deibel are both officially credited with three victories. Van Helsdingen was killed on the ML's final mission over Java on March 7th 1942; Deibel was killed in Holland in 1950 while flying a Gloster Meteor.
Regarding markings, initially the national marking was the black-bordered orange triangle on fuselage sides and lower wing surfaces only. On Feb. 23rd 1942, the ML ordered a change to the national flag marking after several instances of the triangle being mistaken for the Japanese hinomaru; this was applied in the same positions as the triangles.
Only 2-Vl.G-V's Brewsters carried a squadron emblem, the "Javaansche Neushoorn" or "Javanese Rhino" on both fuselage sides just ahead of the cockpit. ML serial numbers "B-3xx(x)"were painted on both fuselage sides in white, with "3xx(x) repeated on the wing leading edges.

10-01-2006, 03:31 AM
Thanks for the excellent info, Gerrit. Have the PROFILE, IN ACTION, BUFFALOES OVER SINGAPORE, and first two vols of BLOODY SHAMBLES. Will get the French vol on the Buff---have their I-16 book already. My French was all acquired from listening to revoltingly fluent girlfriends! (I spent some time in Amsterdam in college eons ago---when I arrived there, I was with one of my professors who said "Ah, I think that was the hotel where the SS had its HQ---my Dutch is excellent, I'll ask the cab driver" and the cab driver said in perfect English "Your Dutch is rotten, and, yes, that's where the SS HQ was!"). The little Dutch I have is from listening to the father of a friend of mine (former WWII Dutch naval officer) curse! There will be some Dutch Buff models underway! Also intend to do an American P-40 from the defense of Java.

10-01-2006, 06:28 AM
In case you want to try to improve your Dutch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif:
"Het verlies van Java" , by P.C. Boer, ISBN 90 6707 599-X, publisher "De Bataafsche Leeuw" (2006). Very few photos unfortunately.

"De luchtstrijd rond Borneo"", by P.C. Boer, ISBN 90 269 4253 2, publisher Van Holkema en Warendorf (1987).
"De luchtstrijd om IndiŽ", by P.C. Boer, ISBN 90 269 4160 9, publisher Van Holkema en Warendorf (1989).
The latter two contain some more photos, not only of Brewsters but also of CW-21Bs, Hawk 75A-7s, Glenn Martin B-10s and more. Long out of print and highly sought after but who knows- you might get lucky. If you get a shot at one, grab it before somebody else does!

10-01-2006, 06:31 AM
You could also do RAF and Dutch Hurricanes- they also tried to defend Java http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif! Unfortunately no photos of Dutch Hurricanes are known to have survivedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

10-01-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm searching!

10-02-2006, 02:57 PM
Up to 17 kills now and no further aircraft losses- add one A6M2, two G4Ms and three B5N2s. Last mission was close however- was hit in the engine area by the B5N's rear gunner (got the plane though, that'll teach him!), causing the speed governor to send the revs through the roof. Managed to struggle back with engine quitting just after touching down. Perhaps I am now adjusting to the Hurri- or simply learning to avoid A6M2s like the plague!

10-02-2006, 06:11 PM
I tried the NEI campaign yesterday, the first mission, and was driven crazy by the Buff being just too slow at low altitude to approach a G4M1 from below and out of the arc of the tail stinger. I chased one for miles and miles, and finally went back for ristaffel. As Doris Day would say "OOOOOO I could just scream!!!"

10-03-2006, 01:26 AM
Well I managed to survive for 15 missions. I think I have 8 or 9 kills and am now an FO and lead most missions. I have also been keeping a log book to help my HurriIIb skills and would recommend this practise for people with difficulties.

The things that work for me are:

1) Speed. Never attack a Zero below 450 kph with speed INCREASING after the pass.

2) Boom and Boom, keep going straight through in the attack and fly a sort of mobile strafing circuit on the enemy.

I have to wonder about these campaigns though, they seem to like sending me to Kuala Lumpur after some really nasty airfields. Usually I just bomb and strafe some trucks rather than run out of fuel all the time. I have made it there and back but with no fuel for combat.

10-03-2006, 01:51 AM
Looks faultless to me. All I can say is that those Hurricane pilots must have had a thoroughly miserable and frustrating experience---assuming they lived.

10-03-2006, 03:23 AM
The Buff climbs and manoeuvres significantly better if you set fuel load at 50% which is more than enough for short range missions. From memory, this isn't possible for the first mission in the PF NEI campaign and you're stuck with a 100% fuel load, though it is an option in some of the later missions. I have also flown PF's RAF Hurricane campaign, but this did not impress me too much- the Hurri is regularly sent on missions for which it clearly has insufficient range to complete and I often had to land on forward bases such as Yong Peng to avoid crashing after running out of petrol. And even this required extreme care in fuel management. Flying to Kuala Lumpur and back to Singapore escorting Blenheims, plus combat, is clearly not on with a Hurri!
The Hurricane campaign I am flying at present is the new Singapore Hurricane campaign available from Mission4today.com. This is more realistic than PF's campaign in that you are not sent on long-range missions, though its historical accuracy leaves something to be desired- Hurricane IICs are included and it starts in December 1941 in Malaya, plus Tomahawks are included as AI in some missions (curiously, Buffs aren't). I changed the IICs to to IIBs in the relevant missions to improve historical accuracy somewhat but otherwise left it alone. It's every bit as tough as the PF Hurricane campaign but does require a pretty heavy computer to run without any hiccups- LOTS of ground objects (both stationary and moving) are included. My rig is running at the limit in this campaign.

10-03-2006, 03:59 AM
Ah, of course. I was in such a fluster I forgot to check my fuel gauge! May give the new campaign a try. As for now, I prefer a 50% fuel Buffs vs 50% fuel A6M2s thrash on the faithful QMB---crude, but exhilarating.

10-03-2006, 05:42 AM
The F2A-2 performs much better than the Buffalo Mk.I and it would be my preferred mount if it didn't have that hideous and almost useless telescopic gunsight. In relative terms it is closer in performance to the Dutch B339C and D than the Buffalo Mk.I, though as with all Buff variants in FB/PF, top speed at altitude is way off- in real life the F2A-2 (and the B-339D) were faster than the F4F-3 and A6M2, the B-339C was approximately as fast as the A6M2 and the Buffalo Mk.I about as fast as the Ki.43 with the F2A-3 somewhere between Buffalo Mk. I and A6M2 in speed at altitude.
It is possible to score kills with the telescopic gunsight, but extremely hard to track a wildly manoeuvering opponent while in gunsight view, requiring rapid switching between views. Give the F2A-2 a try as well in QMB. Never quite understood why the USN/USMC had reflector gunsights on the F4F-3 but retained the telescopic on the F2A-2 and F2A-3.......

10-03-2006, 08:32 AM
Yes, the F2A-2 is my preferred mount but for the tele sight. Strange it is that the exact contemporaries, the F4F-3 and F2A-3, had dissimilar sights. The tele sight is the bane of my existence---whether it be SBD-3, F2A-2, Ki-43, or D3A1, I have a great deal of trouble coordinating manuever and fire. With 6 DOF, where you can look around your sight (the SE5A in "Over Flanders Fields") to maintain your situational awareness, I am not oppressed my the device. Probably a game play "thing."

10-03-2006, 09:51 AM
The F2A-3 will in all probability become available as a flyable in the frre patch after "46" and it will be extremely interseting to see what kind of performance it will have in the sim- hopefully something, top speed-wise, that approaches its correct value. I sent Oleg documentation about the low speeds at altitude of all three Brewsters in the sim but so far nothing has been done with that info- perhaps because a B-239 with corrected speed will REALLY rip his LaGGs, Migs and Yaks to shreds?????
Significantly, Finnish Brewster pilots considered the Soviet Hurricanes no serious opponent. So much for "one of WW2's great fighters (Hurricane)"- being humiliated by "WW2's worst fighter (Buffalo)".

10-03-2006, 10:03 AM
Definitely the Buff received bad press. When I was young it was a joke. Then I read Eino Luukkanen's FIGHTER OVER FINLAND in 1965 and my mind was changed! The irony is that its bad US reputation stems from a single fracus where the Buff did the most damage and the Wildcats got badly scorched (and they were the more nimble F4F-3s to boot). The extremely long range of the F2A-3 would have been invaluable in the 1942 carrier battles where the Cat flopped as an escort fighter until some had drop tanks in the Santa Cruz battle. The Finnish Brewster is the most wildly nimble monoplane in the game. It makes an excellent opponent for the I-153!!!

10-03-2006, 07:46 PM
Reduced fuel in my Dutch Buff, and wow!

10-03-2006, 11:15 PM
Yes, the F2A-2 is my preferred mount but for the tele sight. Strange it is that the exact contemporaries, the F4F-3 and F2A-3, had dissimilar sights.

F4F-3s (at least some of them) had telescopic sights at the beginning of the war, but these were quickly replaced with reflector sites. Assuming the F2A-3s (which actually saw combat with the USN rather than the F2A-2 we have in the same) still had telescopic sights at Midway (I have never read anything one way or the other), it would only be because, as they were being phased out as fast as possible, BuAir did not want to bother replacing them.

10-04-2006, 12:20 AM
Ordering LE BREWSTER. Did some internet digging and found a good Dutch Buff canopy photo with pilot from shortly after 7 Dec '41---no reflector sight (ring visible) and no head/back armor---oh my! Found another showing a line of surrendered Dutch Buffs in NEA with the orange insignias replaced by the national tricolor. I once nearly blasted a fellow Buff when I mistook the orange insig for the Japanese red---realism! Going to have another attempt to find the Dutch lang volumes. Looks like I am not going to be able to wait for the 1:32 MPM---I have a 1:48 Tamiya Buff which was going to be USN but now it's going to be a soldier of orange.

10-04-2006, 02:23 AM
The ring-and-bead sights were fitted at the factory to Brewsters that weren't shipped to the NEI with reflector sights. However, by 18th Feb 1942, the time the Japanese assault on Java started, all remaining Brewsters had the reflector sights and pilot back and head armour, plus self-sealing fuel tanks.
After capture at Andir, the Japanese ordered the reflector sights to be removed and the ring-and-bead sights refitted. Reason, oddly enough, was safety. The Dutch Brewsters were not fitted with shoulder harness safety belts, only stomach belts (another sign, perhaps, of Brewster and subcontractor schedules not matching) and the Japanese were worried that in the event of a crashlanding, the pilot would hit the reflector sight with his face. This is why you see photos of Japanese Brewsters with ring-and-bead sights. Strange that the Japanese should be so concerned with safety- their planes had no pilot armour, self-sealing fuel tanks of armour glass windscreens until well into the war, because they considered such items irrelevant. But by then, perhaps the losses they had suffered in invading Malaya, the Philippines and the NEI were already beginning to result in experienced pilot shortages.

10-04-2006, 03:13 AM
Thank you for all the information. Appears I am out of luck re the dutch histories---tried my book search services and found none. With all the information from you plus a lucky find on NEA camou on this site:


I am in great shape. I do not fear the A6M2 or the Ki-43 in an export Buff with 50% or less fuel---now I relish the prospect of a maneuver battle.

10-04-2006, 05:32 AM
"Het verlies van Java" was published a few months ago and should be readily available- any half-decent bookshop should be able to order it for you with the info I've supplied. It's short on photos but long on text, really full of info. Of course, one does have to be fluent in Dutch......
The info on the Japanese having the ring-and-bead sights refitted on captured KNIL Brewsters comes directly from the author, P.C. Boer- it is not in any of his published works.
I am well aware of the existence of that website- I post on its message board http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif! And yes, with 50% fuel the Buff can turn almost as well as A6M2 and Ki.43, though it won't climb as fast as they can (Finnish B-239 pilots can use this setting as well, it's just as effective). It is, however, MUCH more competitive! I tried the same 50% load on the Hurricane IIB, but it doesn't improve matters much and endurance really becomes an issue since the Hurri doesn't have a great range to begin with. It's OK for point defence but not much else. Short of a Far East field-mod Hurri IIB appearing in the sim (eight 303s instead of twelve)- highly unlikely given the approaching end of FB/PF development- there isn't really anything to play with to improve performance and Hurri pilots will just have to grin and bear it when fighting their Japanese opponents.

10-04-2006, 09:49 AM
Trying again! Thanks for the inside info on the sights!

10-04-2006, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Offline I am constantly getting my @rse handed to me flying the Hurri IIc against the Zero in the Singapore (RAAF) campaign.

B&Z doesn't seem to be much of an option in the Hurri since the controls are so unresponsive at high speed and I can't even run away since even a betty bomber has a better cruising speed at any given altitude.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Online I love the Hurricane IIC vs Zero, Ki43 or Ki61. You have the advantage of firepower, excellent gunsight, steady gun platform and rugged aircraft. With one good wingman you can rack up the kills. I have just come offline and scored 14 kills for one loss. My wing man scored 7 kills for one loss.

Team work, sound tactics and above all good gunnery will serve you very well in the Hurricane.

10-04-2006, 09:01 PM
I chose a P-47 with extra ammunition and, with the help of my faithful wingman, destroyed a Geschwader---online, of course. If I had had a Finnish Buffalo, the odds are good I could have destroyed an entire Front of Soviet aviation---online, of course.

10-04-2006, 09:47 PM
Front of Soviet aviation

Just one?

10-04-2006, 10:00 PM
On the way I destroyed a Tank Army!

10-04-2006, 10:03 PM
Nimits---are you planning a Marianas Battle series for the new airplanes?!

10-07-2006, 10:22 AM
After seeing this thread I decided to start a Hurricane Dgen Singapore career. I do find it a hard life trying to suceed as well as I would in more capable aircraft such as the Buffalo Mk.1, but I ain't doing too bad either.

On my second mission we flew up to an airbase that was already being attacked and it was defended by two Buffaloes, which were still alive and tangling with two Zeros and two KI-43s!!! I came into the fight with speed from diving and was able to zoom up behind a Zero. I gave him just little blip of a burst, not even a second in all, and he lit up like tiki torch.

After that initial pass, I was down to normal speeds already but locked onto the other Zero that was firing at a Buffalo. They had gotten really slow as the Buffalo was going through desperate twisting and turning in it's evasion. Once I got my sights on the Zeke, I let him have it with another super short burst and he went down in flames just like the first.

Then I saw three or four Bettys over the airfield. I flew up to one as it was making a very tight turn ( for a bomber ). It must have been in a 60 degree bank or so. I pulled lead on it and gave it a four second burst of .303s and it was my third vicory in about four minutes!!
And I hadn't even used much ammo.

Then I saw that the two Ki-43s were circling at high altitude, after having shot down one of the Buffaloes and damaging a Hurricane from another flight besides mine. I climbed up after them.
They were outclimbing me but once they leveled I was slowly able to catch them, as they went into a cruise speed slow enough for me to slowly close. After a long time we were nearing their enemy base and as they were descending, I pulled up behind the rear one, which was the wingman ( wingAI, not really a man ) and after a few pings he rolled into a split S towards the deck in his frantic rolling I was able to get a Pk and he went in. The other KI-43 AI must have got in the landing pattern because I went for home and he did not follow. But four enemy planes is not bad in a Huricane!!

But the moral of this story is that it's not so hard to do well in the Hurricane against either Zekes or KIs, but luck can be important. Most of that sorty was luck, as I usually do not score that well. One or two aircraft down is my norm since then.

In my last mission I lost my elevator from Betty defensive guns and had to land without it. It was not hard but I made about three small bounces. Other than that it was a nice landing.
Don't let anybody tell you can't land without elevator because you can. I made a near perfect landing once in a Me-110 with no elevator.