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reggire
12-20-2007, 09:21 PM
i knew that is fun to shoot down a friend in game, but in ww2 is hardly mentioned. Apart from ground forces who shoot on anything, an example of pilot-pilot shooting i can*t find. It is normal that pilot do not want to be next one after he shoot someone, but a single example??
Anyone??

BaldieJr
12-20-2007, 09:28 PM
i'm a chute-shooter and shot-shooter. i'll shoot a shot or a chute but never had a shot in a chute and i'm not opposed to the idea, to be honest with you.

BSS_Sniper
12-20-2007, 09:39 PM
It did happen. Here's an example.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/zyvagin/zyvagin.htm

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/kybarev/kybarev.htm

berg417448
12-20-2007, 09:40 PM
Shooting at pilots in parachutes was more common than many want to admit. It was done by some in all air forces.

Examples:

RUSSIANs SHOOTING AT GERMAN PILOT IN CHUTE

"Roehrig was shot down again in aerial combat with Russian fighters on 6 August. He baled out of his stricken Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 480) "Yellow 8"¯ and was then shot at by Russian fighters while descending on his parachute. Fortunately, he landed unhurt and returned to his unit. Roehrig recorded his 10th victory on 20 August."¯
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/roehrig.html

GERMANS SHOOTING AT AMERICANS IN PARACHUTES:

1. "I thought I was the only person on board, so I jumped. Three fighters came after me. The first one missed and the second also missed. When the third one came by I was too low for him to shoot at me. When I hit the ground a burst of machine gun was fired at me. I hit the dirt fast. Then German soldiers came and drove me on a motorcycle to a building. On the way we passed a row of dead American airmen, about 12 of them covered with blood soaked parachutes. I knew they were shot dead on the way down. When we reached the building I saw our radio operator (McCauley) who was wounded and hurt bad. The Germans still made him stand up."¯
http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/b17a.html

AMERICAN SHOOTING GERMAN IN CHUTE

Capt. Richard Peterson, 357th FG admitted in an interview for Wings that he had made mince meat of a Bf 109 pilot who had flown from parachute to parachute, shooting at American bomber crews. – " I just tore him up and that was the only time I did it"¯, he said.



POLISH PILOTS SHOOTING GERMANS IN PARACHUTES

"There were two Poles in 151 Squadron, Frank Czaijkowski and a Sergeant Gmur who spoke little English and was shot down and killed. There was also a Czech pilot. Their flying skills were exemplary.

They hated [the Germans]. Absolutely hated them. In fact, I understand once or twice when Germans were shot down in parachutes they were shot at, but then the Germans would shoot any of us, which was why we were all told, "If you do have a chance, don't bail out, crash land your aeroplane."¯

GERMANS SHOOTING AT BRITISH

. "At about 18.30 hours, RAF Sergeant A. W. Wooley was piloting Hawker Hurricane No P3681 of 601 Squadron. Whilst engaging a Heinkel 111 off the Isle of Wight, his gravity fuel tank was hit and set alight by return fire. According to eyewitnesses, Sergeant Wooley baled out high above Freshwater and as he drifted towards Thorness he was machine-gunned by an enemy fighter. Luckily he survived but his parachute harness was almost cut through by one of the bullets. His troubles were not quite over that day for he landed in cow-pats."¯
http://www.warbirdart.demon.co.uk/op-rtrnfire.html


JAPANESE ATTACKING AMERICANS IN PARACHUTES:

" The fate of the "Temptation" was as bad as "Mama's." Lieutenant William Rutledge's crew had fought off nine Zeros over Haiphong before her No.3 engine was hit. Rutledge successfully feathered the engine so the plane was able to fly northwest with the remaining two Liberators, "Doodlebug" and "Flub Dub." The crippled Liberator was unable to keep up so Rutledge turned his ship north and struck out on his own. She was jumped again by "Zekes," whose bullets shut down No.4 engine and jammed her stabilizer, causing the plane to start a slow spiral down to her left. The crewmembers were ordered to jump by the pilot and were immediately machine gunned as they floated helplessly to the ground. Lieutenant Rutledge was killed by a shot to the head, S/Sergeant Wilber Willis was riddled with bullets. Bombardier Lieutenant Richard Warren had been wounded in the leg during the attack. Navigator Robert Powers, a new replacement on the crew, had helped Warren into his chute and assisted him out the open bomb bay. Machine gunner S/Sergeant Robert L. Corbin had also been wounded and was nearly unconscious. Copilot Don Smith struggled to get him into a chute and pushed him out of the plane. Corbin revived long enough to open his chute. But neither Lieutenant Warren nor Sergeant Corbin was ever found."¯


Italian attempting to shoot American in parachute:

My first mission from Monserrato came on 1 December. We escorted our old pals, the B-26s, to bomb railroad bridges at Sarzana, near La Spezia. The bombing appeared to be very effective. Twenty enemy aircraft attacked us. They were very aggressive and appeared to be experienced combat pilots. They continued their attack well out to sea. We lost four aircraft and pilots of the 27th Squadron destroyed two enemy planes. Two of those lost were F/O Duff from the 94th and from the 27th, Lt Eldon E. Vondra, one of the "shanghaied"¯ P-40 pilots.
I sighted Vondra's lone P-38 with an engine on fire and being attacked by three enemy aircraft. I turned into them and forced them to break off. I remained with Vondra until he had to "hit the silk."¯ Hovering over him, I dispersed two enemy fighters that attempted to strafe him while he was still descending in his chute. Unfortunately, this was all for naught"”we never saw Vondra again. I eventually received the Distinguished Flying Cross for this action, but it was tarnished by the loss of my friend.

reggire
12-20-2007, 11:06 PM
thanx guys for a good answers

GregGal
12-21-2007, 12:29 AM
Several hungarian pilots were killed by american pilots while hanging on thier chutes.

It's not about nationality. a large part of mankind is a bounch of maggots. Such gangsters are among us, in every country.
I've read an interview with an american fighter pilot, and he said they were ordered to shoot on baled out pilots if it was possible, but very few took this order seriously.

The majority of the airmen considered a baled out pilot as a fellow in trouble. They were'n enemies anymore. Another story is about a Mustang pilot, who flew next to a hungarian 109, showing him to look back. The hungarian pilot looked back, and saw that his plane was on fire. He baled out, and in the next moment, the uncontrolled 109 collided with the P-51, killing the helpful american pilot...

MrMojok
12-21-2007, 01:23 AM
I've never read the book, but I seem to recall that a bunch of people who have read it say that there is a part in Robert Johnson's book where he talks about annihilating a German pilot who had not yet taken to his chute, but was stepping out of the cockpit onto the wing, in preparation to jump. Johnson let go and splattered him into oblivion, because the guy was such a good pilot, he didn't want to face him again, and didn't want to have any of his squadronmates face him again.

Can anyone who has the book confirm this?

MEGILE
12-21-2007, 02:24 AM
I certainly would. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jagdgeschwader2
12-21-2007, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
I've never read the book, but I seem to recall that a bunch of people who have read it say that there is a part in Robert Johnson's book where he talks about annihilating a German pilot who had not yet taken to his chute, but was stepping out of the cockpit onto the wing, in preparation to jump. Johnson let go and splattered him into oblivion, because the guy was such a good pilot, he didn't want to face him again, and didn't want to have any of his squadronmates face him again.

Can anyone who has the book confirm this?

That is indeed in Robert Johnson's book. He also recalls seeing a Mustang pilot speeding up behind a 109 to finish it off when all of a sudden the German pilot decided to bail out! The German pilot's body slammed into the spinner of the the Mustang before being consumed by the prop. The Mustang sustained so much damage that the pilot was about to bail,but he was persuaded to try and make it back to base. Johnson and his wingman escorted the crippled Mustang home. Needless to say the Mustang pilot was badly shaken by this horrible ordeal. And we wonder why many vets are not interested in our little game.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img12.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

Jagdgeschwader2
12-21-2007, 05:17 AM
How to fight in a Thunderbolt in the real world from the man himself.

Playing with a Spitfire 9b (Jug equipped with paddle bladed prop.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img13.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img14.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

Jagdgeschwader2
12-21-2007, 05:19 AM
Sorry if I took your post off topic reggire I just wanted to recommend this book to those that haven't read it yet. I picked up a vintage copy of the book on e-Bay for a whole $4.95. Best $4.95 I've ever spent. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

Bremspropeller
12-21-2007, 05:23 AM
It's not about nationality. a large part of mankind is a bounch of maggots. Such gangsters are among us, in every country.

The key is to never meet such a jer k when you're takin the silk-elevator.

Blutarski2004
12-21-2007, 08:12 AM
It is an irony that war can bring out both the very noblest and the very worst behavior in mankind.

JSG72
12-21-2007, 12:02 PM
Ah! the chivalrous art of Air combat.

I have never wanted to kill anyone but stop the machine.

However go tell that, to a Grunt/Trooper/ZUG.

HayateAce
12-21-2007, 12:24 PM
Yeager specifically did a free-fall away from the dogfight he was downed in, waiting as long as possible to pull the cord. He had seen plenty of chute killers up to that point to know better.

Cajun76
12-21-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Jagdgeschwader2:
Sorry if I took your post off topic reggire I just wanted to recommend this book to those that haven't read it yet. I picked up a vintage copy of the book on e-Bay for a whole $4.95. Best $4.95 I've ever spent. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

I've been meaning to pick it up for a long time. It amazes me that people are amazed at what the Thunderbolt could do. The thread a week or so ago about launching Thunderbolts from aircraft carriers was a prime example.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Johnson and the Thunderbolt! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

BrotherVoodoo
12-21-2007, 01:09 PM
For myself, I would never chute shoot a fellow aviator. I'll blow the cr@p out of his ride but never the pilot if he manages to bail.

gizmo60
12-21-2007, 03:04 PM
hmm, i cant figure this, surely the guy is the enemy..

if you were fighting on the ground and saw an enemy soldier running towards a machine gun would you shoot him then or wait until he got into position and started firing at you

fortunately i've never been in an armed conflict but i'm pretty sure i would feel little compassion for someone who had been trying to kill me and my mates just a few moments previously

BaronUnderpants
12-21-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by gizmo60:
hmm, i cant figure this, surely the guy is the enemy..

if you were fighting on the ground and saw an enemy soldier running towards a machine gun would you shoot him then or wait until he got into position and started firing at you

fortunately i've never been in an armed conflict but i'm pretty sure i would feel little compassion for someone who had been trying to kill me and my mates just a few moments previously


Well, in the end i think it often came down to: are u dumb enough to turn back to shoot at a allredy defeated target...maby even in the heat of battle?

Not if your smart.


Maby many of the reported insidents where "just" snapp moments or maby it just looked like enemies where trying to shoot the shutes?

Like with the US pilot who saw 12 bloodsoaked crews....how would he know they where shot by enemy ac`s? More likely by ground tropps, thinking they where paratroopers...who knows.


Maby alot of pilots bailing out where unlucky enough to do so while the enemy where still shooting at the plane.....happens in game often enough (not trying to compare with the game, but still)

But as allredy said, there where A-holes on every side.

The example of the US pilot killing a german who bailed out after straiffing bomber crews in shutes is another explanation....think most people would do the same, if given the chanse. Swift justice so to speak.

I think there where very few who put into system to actually go after shutes.(if any)

Jagdgeschwader2
12-21-2007, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdgeschwader2:
Sorry if I took your post off topic reggire I just wanted to recommend this book to those that haven't read it yet. I picked up a vintage copy of the book on e-Bay for a whole $4.95. Best $4.95 I've ever spent. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I've been meaning to pick it up for a long time. It amazes me that people are amazed at what the Thunderbolt could do. The thread a week or so ago about launching Thunderbolts from aircraft carriers was a prime example.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Johnson and the Thunderbolt! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep,the Thunderbolt is one awesome machine! Even if you don't build model kits I also recommend Squadron's Walk Around P-47 Thunderbolt. The photos contained in this book are awesome. A must for all Jug enthusiasts.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

DuxCorvan
12-21-2007, 05:19 PM
A curious case happened during Spanish War when Nationalist Spanish pilots had to defend one of his own who bailed out and was being shot BOTH by Republican enemies AND by fellow Italian pilots.

MB_Avro_UK
12-21-2007, 05:49 PM
Hi all,

Is there a link or book about the evil British pilots shooting Germans on their 'chutes?

Maybe it would make a fantastic Holyweird film?

Seriously though, I think that it would be difficult to shoot a parachute. The pilot would be a very small target and the 'chute would absorb vital bullets with little damage IMO.

Would cannon shells impact against silk?

This is an emotive subject but reality must prevail.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

berg417448
12-21-2007, 06:08 PM
RAF pilot "Buzz" Buerling admitted shooting a German in his chute and also admitted strafing a German aircrew in a life raft.

In his book, Robert S. Tuck told of shooting a German pilot floating in his life raft.


British Home Guard shooting at descending parachute:

I got out of the aeroplane very quickly and looked up. I was going to delay my drop until all the Messerschmidts were tiny little things in the sky. I reckon I dropped about 6,000 feet. I then looked down and realised I had no trousers on, and I took my helmet off and looked at that, and that was badly burnt. Stupidly I threw that away, but then tried to grab it but couldn't quite reach it. I opened my parachute. I was heading down towards an open field when I saw a Home Guard ... he fired two shots at me. I was screaming out, "Don't shoot, I am British!" but he obviously couldn't hear because I think I heard the second bullet pass quite close. I crashed into this field, he came across, was very apologetic, and took me to a farmhouse.

http://www.war-experience.org/collections/air/alliedbrit/ellacombe/default.asp

R_Target
12-21-2007, 06:09 PM
Chutebusters®, a Peter Jackson Film.

MB_Avro_UK
12-21-2007, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
RAF pilot "Buzz" Buerling admitted shooting a German in his chute and also admitted strafing a German aircrew in a life raft.

In his book, Robert S. Tuck told of shooting a German pilot floating in his life raft.


British Home Guard shooting at descending parachute:

I got out of the aeroplane very quickly and looked up. I was going to delay my drop until all the Messerschmidts were tiny little things in the sky. I reckon I dropped about 6,000 feet. I then looked down and realised I had no trousers on, and I took my helmet off and looked at that, and that was badly burnt. Stupidly I threw that away, but then tried to grab it but couldn't quite reach it. I opened my parachute. I was heading down towards an open field when I saw a Home Guard ... he fired two shots at me. I was screaming out, "Don't shoot, I am British!" but he obviously couldn't hear because I think I heard the second bullet pass quite close. I crashed into this field, he came across, was very apologetic, and took me to a farmhouse.

http://www.war-experience.org/collections/air/alliedbrit/ellacombe/default.asp

Hi all,

Buerling was Canadian and not British.

Robert Tuck did kill a Luftwaffe crew member in the sea according to his book.

It was done as an act of mercy because the Luftwaffe guy would have suffered an agonizing slow death without any hope of rescue.

He was not proud of this but was honest enough to write about it.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Skalgrim
12-23-2007, 09:34 AM
think american, has most time kill paracute

beccuse they have know, than came a new

JG4_Helofly
12-23-2007, 09:48 AM
From what I have read, the Luftwaffe gave much importance to chivalry. A pilot who was known to shoot at chutes didn't have very good reputation among his buddies.

foxyboy1964
12-23-2007, 11:10 AM
Shooting at airmen in chutes is the same as shooting at sailors in the water. It's wrong.

T_O_A_D
12-23-2007, 11:44 AM
Once in the chute unarmed,I'd pass and wave if the area was clear and the fighting was over.

If I had just witnessed a pilot hose several chutes, I'd kill him first chancein the pit or the chute.

JSG72
12-23-2007, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
think american, has most time kill paracute

beccuse they have know, than came a new

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif And thats, the true.

DuxCorvan
12-23-2007, 01:09 PM
Many of you are forgetting that modern war is usually full of bad manners and that there's always a strong component of "die, motherf***er, die!" inherent to the system.

buzzsaw1939
12-23-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by gizmo60:
hmm, i cant figure this, surely the guy is the enemy..

if you were fighting on the ground and saw an enemy soldier running towards a machine gun would you shoot him then or wait until he got into position and started firing at you

fortunately i've never been in an armed conflict but i'm pretty sure i would feel little compassion for someone who had been trying to kill me and my mates just a few moments previously

gizmo... A lot of people don't remember this, but in wwII there was the idea that if you shoot one enemy, you took 4 more out of action for awhile to get him medical aid, that was the reason for full metal jacket ammo, it wasn't so much to kill.

However that has changed, and men and machines seem to have evolved more toward hate, but of course thats where war comes from in the first place, dosen't it?

I guess I would only shoot a chute if I saw him do it, like so many here!

This thread reminds me of an episode on Dogfights, where a German pilot was hammering a crippled American pilot in his p-47 if I remember correctly, after awhile he would pull up next to him, and look at him, and nod, then drop back and hammer him some more, I don't remmember how it ended, but he did that several times then gave up, I think! but I was wondering about it for quite a while, to me the German pilot just wanted the plane, and was looking for some sign of submission, I think I would have pointed to my chute and showed a cut throat gesture.

Any way he lived to tell about it, just shows there was chivalry on all sides.

Stiletto-
12-23-2007, 01:36 PM
Haha, this is a much debated and often heated topic. In real life, I would hope to be able to shoot down all my enemies in their chutes, if it was easy and safe to do so, and if they were over their own soil. When it comes down to it, it's war, and killing those pilots can take days off the war in the end, and save yourself and your squadmates.. I would hope I would have the guts to do it, you'd be saving more lives in the process than what you are taking.

Jagdgeschwader2
12-23-2007, 01:42 PM
Here is a complete online book for you all to read. I personally would not shoot a man hanging in a chute though who knows what we would do in a real war. I seriously doubt the real war was as romantic and chivalrous as some make it out to be.

A History of War,Weapons and Aggression: All nations are guilty of some form of cruelty or brutality dating way back.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6Y8CNoQqSywC&pg=RA1-PA...pGWObk#PRA1-PA286,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=6Y8CNoQqSywC&pg=RA1-PA284&lpg=RA1-PA284&dq=russian+pilots+killing+germans+in+their+parachu tes&source=web&ots=mAYcezWq5O&sig=aiTZ0P11RJndL1bJexzPxpGWObk#PRA1-PA286,M1)

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

joeap
12-23-2007, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by JSG72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skalgrim:
think american, has most time kill paracute

beccuse they have know, than came a new

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif And thats, the true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Transmission garbled over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

berg417448
12-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
think american, has most time kill paracute

beccuse they have know, than came a new


Pilots were being shot in their chutes in 1939..no American air force around. Same for 1940 and 1941. Funny how some people claim the other guys were the ones to do it but not their own.

berg417448
12-23-2007, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:


This thread reminds me of an episode on Dogfights, where a German pilot was hammering a crippled American pilot in his p-47 if I remember correctly, after awhile he would pull up next to him, and look at him, and nod, then drop back and hammer him some more, I don't remmember how it ended, but he did that several times then gave up, I think! but I was wondering about it for quite a while, to me the German pilot just wanted the plane, and was looking for some sign of submission, I think I would have pointed to my chute and showed a cut throat gesture.


That was Robert Johnson. He could not bail out in that incident. His canopy was jammed due to damage from 20mm cannon fire.

SeaFireLIV
12-23-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by gizmo60:
hmm, i cant figure this, surely the guy is the enemy..

if you were fighting on the ground and saw an enemy soldier running towards a machine gun would you shoot him then or wait until he got into position and started firing at you

fortunately i've never been in an armed conflict but i'm pretty sure i would feel little compassion for someone who had been trying to kill me and my mates just a few moments previously

This is why forums like this are to me a microcosm of reality.

While some say they would never knowingly pilot kill a pilot in his chute, others say, `why not?`

It comes down to the person and many facters to why someone kills this way or no... Previous experience of seeing friends shot in chutes, or vengeance against the enemy for family and friends in an invaded home, or orders, or sheer wickedness - even a personal logic, ie, `Why let the enemy return home to fight again and maybe kill more friends?` compared to `It allows the enemy to waste resources and manpower `fixing` the pilot`.

Fascinating.

I myself would not shoot a pilot hanging in his chute and never have in the sim. I would not do so either in real life, yet, would I say the same if one day I saw a fellow friendly fighter slaughtered in his parachute?

Real life is great at revealing who we really are to ourselves, no matter what we think.

buzzsaw1939
12-23-2007, 07:19 PM
Thanks berg... Short term memeory you know! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

In that case I would have pushed my hands against the canopy or something, I think the German pilot was trying to figure him out, but he didn't give him any signs that he was in trouble in his story, maybe he forgot that part!

M2morris
12-25-2007, 08:12 PM
I'm not one to shoot a bailed pilot in a parachute, but I sure must have scared the hell out of this guy with this little stunt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrUEtvJsgs

buzzsaw1939
12-25-2007, 08:29 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif I think if you look close, you can see a trail of s**t! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

M2morris
12-25-2007, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif I think if you look close, you can see a trail of s**t! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
I think he might have crapped on my elevator!

Jaws2002
12-25-2007, 10:00 PM
If it was ww1 and i was a British pilot. If i'd see the Red Baron take to his chute OVER HIS OWN TERITORY, i'd kill him dead right there.
That kind of pilot is too dangerous to be allowed to fight again. Over my own teritory is a different thing. He'll be capture. His war is over. That's why I kind of understand American pilots that sometimes were ordered to strafe the enemy plane that crash-landed. That guy will be up there waiting for you tomorow with four loaded guns.

Let's not forget. In ww2 30-40 million people died in many, many scary ways.

Xiolablu3
12-26-2007, 03:44 AM
Bob DOe describes in the 'Spitfire Ace' series about how he shot up a Bf109 in his Hurricane and pulled up along side him to see this big guy struggling with its controls, he couldnt bring himself to shoot anymore , he knew he would have to go down into the channel.

http://www.battle-of-britain.com/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/doe.htm

He said afterwards, he should have finished him off because he was rescued and came back to shoot down more RAF planes.


Its a tough decision whether or not to murder a helpless pilot, but air warfare is all about shooting someone in the back without being seen anyway,

I could see the RAF doing it more than the Germans, simply because for them, it was a crucial war of survival, for the Germans, it was simply an excursion to try and conquer more territory, or at least make the British Capitulate, and as such not a war of survival.


Apparantly the Poles were the biggest shooters of parachutes on the Western Front. The RAF were out to shoot down aircraft, the POles were there to kill Germans. You can hardly blame them.

The 'Spitfire Ace' series has quite a good insight into this subject and explains the Poles point of view better than I ever could :-

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-991177782126573351&q=spitfire

Time 34:00s in the above link is the part about shooting parachutes and 'feelings' towards the enemies'

Its well worth watching if you havent seen it, insights from both sides pilots.

Brilliant part about two Polish pilots shooting down a bomber in the fog just after that.

Feathered_IV
12-30-2007, 06:53 AM
Interesting thread. Here is something I found on youtube: WWII Brutality Richard 'Bud' Peterson P-51 Ace Interview (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LVlYJ5eJU&NR=1)

Curious to know peoples thoughts on this.

Bremspropeller
12-30-2007, 06:59 AM
Seriously though, I think that it would be difficult to shoot a parachute. The pilot would be a very small target and the 'chute would absorb vital bullets with little damage IMO.

Yes and no.

Ripping the chute-canopy apart will increase the sinkrate and therefore increase the propability of (seroious) injury or death upon "landing".

EDCF_Rama
12-30-2007, 07:35 AM
And there's a good probability tracers will set fire to the canopy tissue.

Manu-6S
12-30-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Is there a link or book about the evil British pilots shooting Germans on their 'chutes?


I was reading "Wing Leader" and Johnnie Johnson admits that was prohibited to shot down enemy's chutes, so he was used to fire constantly until the pilot showed himself... not sure if it's a good thing...

Probably it's because he had not a real military culture.

Anyway I'm not enjoying this book... I preferred the Steinhilper's one.

Xiolablu3
12-30-2007, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Is there a link or book about the evil British pilots shooting Germans on their 'chutes?


I was reading "Wing Leader" and Johnnie Johnson admits that was prohibited to shot down enemy's chutes, so he was used to fire constantly until the pilot showed himself... not sure if it's a good thing...

Probably it's because he had not a real military culture.

Anyway I'm not enjoying this book... I preferred the Steinhilper's one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Man, I am shocked! That book is a wicked read, one of the best Fighter pilot books I have read, far more enjoyable than Adolf Gallands IMO, especially concerning actual combat.

Perhaps you would enjoy Johnsons other book more, 'The Story of Air Fighting' which talks about general air combat from WW1 through to the present day.

What exactly are you not enjoying about the book?

Manu-6S
12-30-2007, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Man, I am shocked! That book is a wicked read, one of the best Fighter pilot books I have read, far more enjoyable than Adolf Gallands IMO, especially concerning actual combat.

Perhaps you would enjoy Johnsons other book more, 'The Story of Air Fighting' which talks about general air combat from WW1 through to the present day.

What exactly are you not enjoying about the book?

Hi Xiola,

The Galland's book is still on my shelf and it'll be the next book... he is not one of my favourite pilots.

About "Wing Leader", maybe I can't explain myself well but I find it a little celebratory and not so informative about the conditions and the emotions of the pilots or, in part, I feel like they are fictional... the inflight dialogs between pilots, some pub stories and the Bader character itself.

Don't worry, that has nothing to do with my IL2's Spitfire hate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As I said I preferred the book of Steinhilper... very much informative about the pilots and squad conditions (and German youth itself)... above all I liked the "communication matter", the pilot's stress problems, the tactic discussions and the relationship between leaders and wingmen.

barrykrocker1
12-30-2007, 07:30 PM
An high-ranking australian ace was known for openly admitting that he tried to kill every single Japanese parachutist if they were over their own territory.

partic_3
12-30-2007, 08:48 PM
I find the idea of the chivalrous fighter pilots slightly offensive. War is an effing obscenity. I believe very strongly that every leader who takes their nation to war should commit suicide at its conclusion. If it really is that important to go to war then an honourably leader should be prepared to pay the same price as so many others will as a result of their decision.

BSS_Sniper
12-30-2007, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gizmo60:
hmm, i cant figure this, surely the guy is the enemy..

if you were fighting on the ground and saw an enemy soldier running towards a machine gun would you shoot him then or wait until he got into position and started firing at you

fortunately i've never been in an armed conflict but i'm pretty sure i would feel little compassion for someone who had been trying to kill me and my mates just a few moments previously

This is why forums like this are to me a microcosm of reality.

While some say they would never knowingly pilot kill a pilot in his chute, others say, `why not?`

It comes down to the person and many facters to why someone kills this way or no... Previous experience of seeing friends shot in chutes, or vengeance against the enemy for family and friends in an invaded home, or orders, or sheer wickedness - even a personal logic, ie, `Why let the enemy return home to fight again and maybe kill more friends?` compared to `It allows the enemy to waste resources and manpower `fixing` the pilot`.

Fascinating.

I myself would not shoot a pilot hanging in his chute and never have in the sim. I would not do so either in real life, yet, would I say the same if one day I saw a fellow friendly fighter slaughtered in his parachute?

Real life is great at revealing who we really are to ourselves, no matter what we think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only good reply so far. Anyone who hasn't been in war AND fighting does not know what they would or wouldn't do until faced with the situation. You can say all you want, but until you are there and are the one doing it, you'll never really know. Good answer SeaFire.

Xiolablu3
01-01-2008, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Man, I am shocked! That book is a wicked read, one of the best Fighter pilot books I have read, far more enjoyable than Adolf Gallands IMO, especially concerning actual combat.

Perhaps you would enjoy Johnsons other book more, 'The Story of Air Fighting' which talks about general air combat from WW1 through to the present day.

What exactly are you not enjoying about the book?

Hi Xiola,

The Galland's book is still on my shelf and it'll be the next book... he is not one of my favourite pilots.

About "Wing Leader", maybe I can't explain myself well but I find it a little celebratory and not so informative about the conditions and the emotions of the pilots or, in part, I feel like they are fictional... the inflight dialogs between pilots, some pub stories and the Bader character itself.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I really dont understand, you think he is making it all up?

He was the highests ALlied scorer on the Western Front to survive the war. Bader is not a 'character'- they flew togther, Bader was his kind of 'mentor'.

Johnson knows his stuff for sure, you can tell when you read his other book :-

http://www.amazon.com/Full-circle-story-air-fighting/dp/B0007J0YUA



You have to remember that there was no 'depressing end' to the RAF pilots war, it ended in jubilation and victory. SO naturally the Germans books are going to be much more stressful to read as they lose all their friends and fly until they die or are crippled. RAF pilots were rotated out after so many sorties for a rest.

As such, they are very young lads on a great adventure, which has a happy ending. (very much like the Afrika pilots in 1941) The RAF had come though a great struggle victorious and as such their books will read more like a happy story when you read 1940-45.


It may be the British way/humour, that has trouble translating to a non-native English speaker. Brits tend to have a way of understating things, which others find hard to understand. Couple that with not totally understanding British people, the book could come across as 'strange' to a non-Brit I guess.

Theres a clip of him here, not sure what he says, its dubbed in German.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOh1tiABG8o

I love how Johnson goes into little details about things, like the part about the Metal vs Fabric Ailerons, and the RAF pilots 'training' together (sneaking up behind one another and blowing a rude noise into the mic to simulate gunfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) The honesty about the Spitfire V's shortcomings vs the FW190 in 1942.

Manu-6S
01-01-2008, 05:55 AM
@Xiola:

I don't know: sure the British humour is something strange to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know Bader but I mean that he's described like the US guys describe the General Patton: in that way I think it's quite fictional (damn, now our american friend will eat me alive).

Steinhilper is not so "sad". He describes how they had fun the night, the jokes, the girls... but he also talk about the historical problems of the pilots, the "channel illness", the way they were privated of their guns to not shot themself.

La7_brook
01-02-2008, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Is there a link or book about the evil British pilots shooting Germans on their 'chutes?


I was reading "Wing Leader" and Johnnie Johnson admits that was prohibited to shot down enemy's chutes, so he was used to fire constantly until the pilot showed himself... not sure if it's a good thing...

Probably it's because he had not a real military culture.

Anyway I'm not enjoying this book... I preferred the Steinhilper's one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A book read Graf and Grislawski by christer bergstrom , they lost guys in there chute flying WF

Lucius_Esox
01-02-2008, 04:59 AM
In all honesty I have no clue how I would react.. Easy to talk about chivalry.

What if the town/city having the cra* bombed out if it was where your wife and young kids lived. What if you had seen it happen to your m8.... loads of what if's.

That's the thing about war I presume,, Pandorra's box... no one knows until they are there I reckon

zardozid
01-02-2008, 06:13 AM
I would think that shooting down a parachute might leave you vulnerable to a "bounce"...If an enemy pilot saw you shooting down parachute's he might be able to deduce where you where headed (he also knows where you are looking...I wonder if "Bud" Peterson was able to sneak up behind the German pilot he observed shooting parachutes because of the Germans "target fixation")...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

zardozid
01-02-2008, 06:34 AM
Buzzsaw1939
gizmo... A lot of people don't remember this, but in wwII there was the idea that if you shoot one enemy, you took 4 more out of action for awhile to get him medical aid, that was the reason for full metal jacket ammo, it wasn't so much to kill.


their are a lot of things about war that have never quite made sense to me...

for example: the bombing of civilians was considered tactically sound and acceptable...and yet the wholesale shooting of civilians by troops is considered un-acceptable.

Philipscdrw
01-02-2008, 07:08 AM
A pilot who's bailed out on his own territory isn't 'defeated', he's going to get back into a plane tomorrow and come back to shoot at your nation's armed forces again. Industrial war was not chivalrous; the aim in those times was to destroy the other nation's capability to make war. Consider how much time and resources it took to train a military pilot. You might not sleep soundly afterwards but you've done the 'right' thing in terms of winning the war.

(War's changed since 1945, according to a general whose book I read and whose lecture I attended. You don't get such clearly-defined targets anymore.)

Shooting at someone who's going to get captured, though, that is wrong.

Bearcat99
01-02-2008, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by BrotherVoodoo:
For myself, I would never chute shoot a fellow aviator. I'll blow the cr@p out of his ride but never the pilot if he manages to bail. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

To be honest I can't say what I would do IRL... From the safety of my desk I can say no but who knows after seeing your friends get shot to pieces and blown out of the sky... in this sim however I will not do it. Here it should be easier to be honorable since no ones life is on the line..

DuxCorvan
01-02-2008, 08:36 AM
Bah, the only good thing about war is that you can kill galore and the cops just look other way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nah, seriously, I insist: in war there's a component of *fear*, *hate* and *stress* that you cannot consider there comfortably sitting in your PC chair. Those who are saying "I'd never do this or that", are most likely the first to go trigger-happy and shout "die, moth**f*er, die!" if they were trapped in a real extreme situation. You can never say never.

And, the guys who are able to do extreme things are the ones most likely to survive -if they have the chance, for surviving a war is 90% luck, 9% running-when-you-have-to, and 1% of skill and smart moves.

Anyway, as much as I'd hate it, I can't say for sure I would never kill a helpless guy hanging from a piece of fabric. D*mn, who knows? I may be able to kill a baby and eat it, and still not know it. I've never faced the dilemma of doing such horrible things or dying a grisly death, and I have not seen my friends beheaded or my relatives with their guts hanging outside.

That's why I rarely dare to judge extraordinary acts of evil when done amid the darkness of extraordinary times of dire.

I just can't imagine living such a thing, while in peace times. I *think* I can, but deep inside, I *know* I can't. Everybody has a 'hate' button, it may be easier or harder to have it pushed.

huggy87
01-02-2008, 09:38 AM
Well said...

Friendly_flyer
01-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Well put Dux!

This is also why I have the greatest admiration for guys not firing on a parachute, despite having their family bombed and squadron mates shot down around them. Turning a beast when facing a beastly situation is survival instinct, remaining human requires the will to overcome the beastly side of our nature.

Stiletto-
01-02-2008, 05:17 PM
How can you say the guy is a Beast if he knows the markings on his enemies planes is that of an excellent pilot? And knows the man hanging in the chute, if lift to float down to earth will saddle up tomorow and kill 50 more men? War is not a game, you would want to do everything you can, if you actually could go through with it, is an entirely different story, but the more Germans you let float down on the opposite side of the front line, the more of your squadmates are going to die, it is as simple as that.

Klemm.co
01-02-2008, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
How can you say the guy is a Beast if he knows the markings on his enemies planes is that of an excellent pilot? And knows the man hanging in the chute, if lift to float down to earth will saddle up tomorow and kill 50 more men? War is not a game, you would want to do everything you can, if you actually could go through with it, is an entirely different story, but the more Germans you let float down on the opposite side of the front line, the more of your squadmates are going to die, it is as simple as that.

What your'e describing here is called total war.
No war in history as far as i recall was like that, with the possible exception of the second part of the second world war.

If there are no pardons given and taken in a war, we all would have been nuked a long time ago, possibly as soon as it was possible.
That is the reason for leaders and simple soldiers to step back and let the enemy live when he can. Because this total war can be turned on YOU. Take what you give, so to say.

For the allies it was clear that the Germans weren't winning after the first half of the war, but they had to struggle on to end it, because the Germans were just not giving up in spite of imminent defeat.

I think that the war got more 'total' because the Axis powers did everything to win in the end despite that they had already lost.

Let's never have such a war again, the world would not survive this, the methods of mass distruction, and be it by convetional means, are much better and refined today than they were back then.

I know this sounds strange, but maybe it was good to have such a war that altough destroyed large parts of the world, at a time where not the whole world could be easily destroyed, paved the way for a world with smaller and conventional wars.
Yes, i mean this. There is no way around wars, Somebody always wants a war, and be it for the money that comes out of it.
Except for nuking the whole world into oblivion. Only countries would want that, not enterprises who only seek to make money from war.

Stiletto-
01-02-2008, 09:32 PM
Very valid points, Klemm. Though I will dissagree on a note, that I don't see killing a defenseless soldier in a chute where he can return again exactly the same as blowing up a whole city full of innocent woman and children who won't attack you, and alot are actually hoping you win and on your side.

Do some of these civilians help the war effort by building daimler-benz engines? Yes. I guess this is somewhere on par with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where most of those people would fight to the death with sticks and stones, even if not, the US said it's not worth loosing anymore soldiers and the bombs were dropped. Total War it was.

cawimmer430
01-03-2008, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Though I will dissagree on a note, that I don't see killing a defenseless soldier in a chute where he can return again exactly the same as blowing up a whole city full of innocent woman and children who won't attack you, and alot are actually hoping you win and on your side.

I wonder what would have happened had this been standard practice by the Allies. Maybe the Germans were going to retaliate by executing Allied prisoners of war, namely those captured when their bomber or fighter was shot down...



Originally posted by Stiletto-http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifo some of these civilians help the war effort by building daimler-benz engines?

Civilians? Slave and foreign laborers were forced to work in Daimler-Benz factories, not so much civilians.

Manu-6S
01-03-2008, 03:00 AM
Anyone who willfully kills civilians should be processed as war criminal, total war or not.

- ANYONE - Not only who loses the war.

In the past as in future.

zardozid
01-03-2008, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Anyone who willfully kills civilians should be processed as war criminal, total war or not.

- ANYONE - Not only who loses the war.

In the past as in future.

what about bombing campaigns that include civilian targets?

Manu-6S
01-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by zardozid:
what about bombing campaigns that include civilian targets?

Above all those.

Adlerangriff
01-03-2008, 09:38 AM
Very simple. Take the graphic out of game if you dont want people doing it. If it offends the victim so much, try not to get blown out of your airplane or try to bail close to the ground. Or do a ground taran attack and make your virtual death worth rewarding for your virtual country.

IMO, every single person shot in their chute deserved it 100% and does in this game as well.

berg417448
01-03-2008, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:

I wonder what would have happened had this been standard practice by the Allies. Maybe the Germans were going to retaliate by executing Allied prisoners of war, namely those captured when their bomber or fighter was shot down...



Actually, Hitler ordered in May 1944 that English and American aircrews be executed without trial if they had fired upon German civilians, railroad trains, or German airmen bailing out with parachutes or who had been forced to land and were in the immediate vicinity of downed planes that they were trying to destroy.

Klemm.co
01-03-2008, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Adlerangriff:
IMO, every single person shot in their chute deserved it 100% and does in this game as well.
So, when i am shooting parachutists out of pure fun or because of simple hatred of the enemy, he deserved it? This view of the world is very simple, everything i do is right because I did it.

I know what you meant with your post, that everyone shot in his chute did commit a crime like shooting another one in his chute or being part of an army which started an attack war, but thats simply not true. No truth is as simple as you say that in your post. Particularly not this one, we're talking about killing people, it being allowed and encouraged as well. But this can clearly go out of hand if it is not controlled and regulated.
Thats why there are rules in war. These rules are of course sometimes rediculous or difficult to follow as an actual soldier (as for example the Vietnam Air War shows), but they are there for a reason.

Klemm.co
01-03-2008, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Actually, Hitler ordered in May 1944 that English and American aircrews be executed without trial if they had fired upon German civilians, railroad trains, or German airmen bailing out with parachutes or who had been forced to land and were in the immediate vicinity of downed planes that they were trying to destroy.
Sounds reasonable from the German point of view at that time. Would you stop from trying to kill a man if he tried to shoot you with his AK and his magazine got empty? I guess that i can say for all that i would kill that man immediately, he could flee or do me other harm if i try to capture him.

I know that this is in contrast to my previous posts, let me explain. I am against killing people because of no reason, but if he tried to kill me or killed my buddys/people, i would be on him on the spot.

Adlerangriff
01-03-2008, 10:03 AM
we're talking about killing people

So, for recreation, we all sit around and simulate the saddest most murderous chapter of the 20th century and you are expecting there to be any moral high ground?

I am glad this is not a submarine simulator. I dont think many of you could handle it.

Manu-6S
01-03-2008, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Adlerangriff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">we're talking about killing people

So, for recreation, we all sit around and simulate the saddest most murderous chapter of the 20th century and you are expecting there to be any moral high ground?

I am glad this is not a submarine simulator. I dont think many of you could handle it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are playing a game, like we do sports ect.

The only thing we hurt of our opponents is their ego.

AKA_TAGERT
01-03-2008, 10:36 AM
Bingo!

Great fun in sim life..

Only because I know it gets such a rise out of the guy hanging in the silk

Klemm.co
01-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Adlerangriff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">we're talking about killing people

So, for recreation, we all sit around and simulate the saddest most murderous chapter of the 20th century and you are expecting there to be any moral high ground?

I am glad this is not a submarine simulator. I dont think many of you could handle it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, sorry, i forgot, i was talking about real life mostly, not the game.

In the game its another thing for me, i will shoot bots for fun because they won't understand the implications of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But online, i will do as i said in my previous post: I will not shoot anybody in their chute, except if they did something stupid or idiotic to me or my teammates.
Their (online-)lifes (in IL-2 ,that is) mean nothing anyway online, and why hurt some ego by killing them without a real reason?
They WILL come back to shoot another 50 american airmen down, if they got the skill. There is nothing i can do about it. And i do not like to try and win the map just by purely killing the other's side pilots.

DKoor
01-03-2008, 10:47 AM
I wont cry if I kill other pilot but truth to be told I'd rather see him captured than dead.
But I'm not the kind of man who shoots at other people under parachutes.

kameron1974
01-03-2008, 01:06 PM
Didn't your mommas tell you guys to treat others as you would like to be treated?
If ever you find yourself floating in a parachute I hope your sorry *** remembers this thread.

AKA_TAGERT
01-03-2008, 01:23 PM
my simulated mother or real mother?

Stiletto-
01-03-2008, 07:51 PM
lol.

JG51_Rudel
01-03-2008, 09:01 PM
Ive heard of German Pilots who were shot down during the Allied bomber raids in 1943-44 who when they bailed out would not open their chutes until they were well below the fighting above. they would open their chutes below 10,000ft sometimes because they feared that the American pilots would strafe them.

berg417448
01-03-2008, 09:10 PM
Allied pilots often delayed their parachute opening for fear of exactly the same thing at the hand of the Germans. It was a real fear for pilots of all sides.

Rammjaeger
01-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by JG51_Rudel:
Ive heard of German Pilots who were shot down during the Allied bomber raids in 1943-44 who when they bailed out would not open their chutes until they were well below the fighting above. they would open their chutes below 10,000ft sometimes because they feared that the American pilots would strafe them.

I'm no expert on parachutes but AFAIK one has to be careful to open it at the right time because if you reach a certain speed while falling, opening the parachute will just cause it to disintegrate.

BSS_Sniper
01-04-2008, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
A pilot who's bailed out on his own territory isn't 'defeated', he's going to get back into a plane tomorrow and come back to shoot at your nation's armed forces again. Industrial war was not chivalrous; the aim in those times was to destroy the other nation's capability to make war. Consider how much time and resources it took to train a military pilot. You might not sleep soundly afterwards but you've done the 'right' thing in terms of winning the war.

(War's changed since 1945, according to a general whose book I read and whose lecture I attended. You don't get such clearly-defined targets anymore.)

Shooting at someone who's going to get captured, though, that is wrong.

Generally speaking however, the allied nations have regs against killing unarmed or nonthreat targets such as troops in chutes, although it was overlooked for the most part.

BSS_Sniper
01-04-2008, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Adlerangriff:
IMO, every single person shot in their chute deserved it 100% and does in this game as well.
So, when i am shooting parachutists out of pure fun or because of simple hatred of the enemy, he deserved it? This view of the world is very simple, everything i do is right because I did it.

I know what you meant with your post, that everyone shot in his chute did commit a crime like shooting another one in his chute or being part of an army which started an attack war, but thats simply not true. No truth is as simple as you say that in your post. Particularly not this one, we're talking about killing people, it being allowed and encouraged as well. But this can clearly go out of hand if it is not controlled and regulated.
Thats why there are rules in war. These rules are of course sometimes rediculous or difficult to follow as an actual soldier (as for example the Vietnam Air War shows), but they are there for a reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ignore that dumb comment Klemm. There are interesting reads on what type of personalities are the effective combat force in war vs the guy that puts on his "I'm a bad MF'r and will kill everything" front. From the studies I read those type personalities generally never even fired their weapons in combat and huddled themselves into a ball in fear.

BSS_Sniper
01-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Actually, Hitler ordered in May 1944 that English and American aircrews be executed without trial if they had fired upon German civilians, railroad trains, or German airmen bailing out with parachutes or who had been forced to land and were in the immediate vicinity of downed planes that they were trying to destroy.
Sounds reasonable from the German point of view at that time. Would you stop from trying to kill a man if he tried to shoot you with his AK and his magazine got empty? I guess that i can say for all that i would kill that man immediately, he could flee or do me other harm if i try to capture him.

I know that this is in contrast to my previous posts, let me explain. I am against killing people because of no reason, but if he tried to kill me or killed my buddys/people, i would be on him on the spot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When the enemy is no longer a threat, then you are held accountable and can be charged for killing an unarmed soldier. ROE gets dicey. You have to tread lightly IRL. It is also a very different world when you're flying MK3 boots on the ground vs an aircraft against a parachute.

Whirlin_merlin
01-04-2008, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG51_Rudel:
Ive heard of German Pilots who were shot down during the Allied bomber raids in 1943-44 who when they bailed out would not open their chutes until they were well below the fighting above. they would open their chutes below 10,000ft sometimes because they feared that the American pilots would strafe them.

I'm no expert on parachutes but AFAIK one has to be careful to open it at the right time because if you reach a certain speed while falling, opening the parachute will just cause it to disintegrate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not an issue you hit terminal velocity pretty quickly and than no more acceleration, infact terminal V is lower at lower alts (increased air resistance) so you will slow down compared to 10,000ft. Mind you since the 'thicker air' will have more effect on the chute this is moot.
Er in nutshell waiting to open the chute will not make it disintegrate.

JSG72
01-04-2008, 04:49 PM
I am in the process of reading the second part of the JG300 war diaries(Read the first part last christmas)
Anyways JG 300 was formed primarily as a "Defence of the Reich" group. Flying partly against RAF night attacks. Mostly against the 8th/9th and occasionally 15th AF bombers.
In almost every account of pilots being shot down and surviving. They had been warned not to open their chutes above 3000metres. because Mustang piots were prone to shooting at them as they descended.
As most combats took place above 9000metres that was a long freefall.(Oh and BTW. when the ripcord was pulled many lost their flying boots with the sudden deceleration.)
There are many vivid descriptions of escorts following these stricken pilots down and shooting them up as they descended/landed.bootless and wounded
Off course these reminisces are only from the pilots who survived.
Hundreds of them perished.
.
The main reasons these pilots flew in this Geschwader was to stop the bombers.whos crews would be captured after they bailed out and so their contribution to the Allied War effort was over.

German pilots if they survived would be up to fight another day. So every effort was encouraged to stop this happening.

Total War after sept '44 meant that anything that could contribute to the Nazi War Machine was fair game. Including Farmers/livestock or any transport medium

Both sides had their reasons.

Who was right?

DuxCorvan
01-04-2008, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:
What your'e describing here is called total war.
No war in history as far as i recall was like that, with the possible exception of the second part of the second world war.

Well, any historian will disagree with you in this, Klemm. Ancient and later warfare consisted mainly in: -Kill everyone, chase and hunt down the fleeing with no quarters; siege, raze and plunder their cities; rape the women, smash the children, take and sell the survivors as slaves, maybe take the notables for ransom (and kill the others), burn what you can't take.

Look up the Assyrians, the Roman Gallic Wars, the Charlemagne campaigns against the Saxons, the Crusade against the Cathars, the Turkish wars in Eastern Europe (Vlad 'Tepes' Dracul anyone?), the 100 Year War, the 30 Year War... No mercy, slaughter of the vanquished, annihilation of the civilians. Total war.

We Western people are too spoiled by two centuries of 'human rights' and knightly romanticism.

SeaFireLIV
01-04-2008, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klemm.co:
What your'e describing here is called total war.
No war in history as far as i recall was like that, with the possible exception of the second part of the second world war.

Well, any historian will disagree with you in this, Klemm. Ancient and later warfare consisted mainly in: -Kill everyone, chase and hunt down the fleeing with no quarters; siege, raze and plunder their cities; rape the women, smash the children, take and sell the survivors as slaves, maybe take the notables for ransom (and kill the others), burn what you can't take.

Look up the Assyrians, the Roman Gallic Wars, the Charlemagne campaigns against the Saxons, the Crusade against the Cathars, the Turkish wars in Eastern Europe (Vlad 'Tepes' Dracul anyone?), the 100 Year War, the 30 Year War... No mercy, slaughter of the vanquished, annihilation of the civilians. Total war.

We Western people are too spoiled by two centuries of 'human rights' and knightly romanticism. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

Though I`m not sure what you mean about the `too spoiled` bit. Should we go back to the old rule of having our armies go back to killing Men and children in victory, raping the women and ransoming the rich?

I`m being devil`s advocate really as I believe a lot of that hasn`t really fully stopped even today. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

zardozid
01-04-2008, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG51_Rudel:
Ive heard of German Pilots who were shot down during the Allied bomber raids in 1943-44 who when they bailed out would not open their chutes until they were well below the fighting above. they would open their chutes below 10,000ft sometimes because they feared that the American pilots would strafe them.

I'm no expert on parachutes but AFAIK one has to be careful to open it at the right time because if you reach a certain speed while falling, opening the parachute will just cause it to disintegrate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not an issue you hit terminal velocity pretty quickly and than no more acceleration, infact terminal V is lower at lower alts (increased air resistance) so you will slow down compared to 10,000ft. Mind you since the 'thicker air' will have more effect on the chute this is moot.
Er in nutshell waiting to open the chute will not make it disintegrate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pilots who lost their parachute or experienced some type of shock from deceleration may have done so because they didn't wait long enough to slow down before pulling their rip-cord...and it may NOT have been because they waited too long before pulling their "rip-cord". The average terminal velocity of a parachutist is "about" 125mph, the fastest a parachutist can fall (with practice) in your average "free fall" is around 175mph. The world record for free fall is a little over 300mph (and he had to slow down before pulling his parachute).
Now consider the fact that your average fighter aircraft can travel at least 300mph in a strait line(when not in an emergency situation)...

ps..wow, fell asleep while writing this. I'm posting and crawling into bed...I will clean up and finish this tomorrow...nite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bremspropeller
01-05-2008, 07:24 AM
The freefall "record" is actually above M1.0, as some dude (forgot his name) jumped off a weather-balloon at roughly 40km alt.

Low air-density and low M 1.0 TAS allow that at high alts.

Oh, he made it...

jadger
01-07-2008, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by zardozid:
Pilots who lost their parachute or experienced some type of shock from deceleration may have done so because they didn't wait long enough to slow down before pulling their rip-cord...and it may NOT have been because they waited too long before pulling their "rip-cord". The average terminal velocity of a parachutist is "about" 125mph, the fastest a parachutist can fall (with practice) in your average "free fall" is around 175mph. The world record for free fall is a little over 300mph (and he had to slow down before pulling his parachute).
Now consider the fact that your average fighter aircraft can travel at least 300mph in a strait line(when not in an emergency situation)...

ps..wow, fell asleep while writing this. I'm posting and crawling into bed...I will clean up and finish this tomorrow...nite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

shot down Pilots aren't looking to set speed records though, they wouldn't assume a streamlined position, but were probably taught the position that we all have seen sky divers do that slows them down the most. Not to mention this is assuming perfect conditions, the pilot may be wounded or tumbling or on fire/covered in oil.

R_Target
01-07-2008, 12:43 PM
As far as I know, Joe Kittinger still holds the record with 102,000 or so feet.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/skydiving/kittinger-jump1.jpg

He didn't break the speed of sound.

Adlerangriff
01-22-2008, 01:22 AM
From the studies I read those type personalities generally never even fired their weapons in combat and huddled themselves into a ball in fear.



What do your reading say about squads that slink away from Virtual Wars because all they want to fly is US Navy Planes? Does it say that the pro US-bias needs to be cut off with a knife?

Or does your previous post that claims the Allies moral high ground indication enough for these people who are not from here?


http://www.fixstupid.com/Burnt%20Offerings/CHAPT12.htm

2-3-43

Battle of the Bismark Sea: Allied aircraft attack a Japanese troop convoy bound for New Guinea. Over the following two days, the convoy is demolished as the Japanese begin to feel the full impact of their disaster at Midway. Beginning with B-17 attacks, and followed up with dive bomber and torpedo plane attacks, the limited Japanese air cover available for the troop convoy (forty planes) has cost the Japanese dearly, losing as many as five thousand men in the effort to bring six thousand, nine hundred troops to Lae. Of the nine transports and eight escorts, all are eventually destroyed, except for four of the escorting destroyers. U.S. aircraft and patrol boats swarm over the survivors in the water, killing many who might have survived to swim ashore. (According to Masuda Reiji, a survivor of one of the escorts, writing in "Japan at War", this battle is known in Japan as the "Tragedy of the Dampier Straight" page 302.)

Yikes, MG's mounted on the front of Patrol Boats to strafe swimmers. I guess a swimmer is more dangerous than a skydiver.

Next you will be telling me I have the wrong date for the battle.

-Brandle

Tater-SW-
01-22-2008, 07:40 AM
Shooting parachutes was SOP for the US in the Pacific after it became clear it was standard practice for the Japanese. Shooting lifeboats and swimmers was also SOP in the PTO.

Why? Because the boats were filled with troops. Said troops did not surrender (japanese surrender rates in typical isand battles were on the order of 3% for similar one-sided battles in europe, the losing side would surrender when it was clear they had no possible hope of winning, saving a large % of lives on both sides). As a result, 97% had to be killed either in the water where they swam for their lives, or in a cave where they might take some of our troops with them. There is no way to do the math where killing them in the water doesn't actually reduce the number of lives lost.

That said, shooting guys in the water was ultimately ineffective (looked at over the course of the war), if you look at the japanese records you will find that the large majority of troops on sunk ships survived to fight to the death on some godforsaken island. Hurray.

In the case of the Bismark Sea, if 5000 out of 6000 died... GOOD. They would have fought to the death and taken many allied lives with them had they lived.

smokincrater
01-22-2008, 06:56 PM
A soldiers first duy is to kill emeny soldiers love it or hate it, that is war! Someone once said giving charges for killing in war is like giving out speeding tickets at the Indy 500. If you have a uniform your duty is to kill the other people in the different uniform. Bringing morality into combantants waged to destroy other combantants is not helpful. It should really be up to the morals of the combantants at the time. Killing civilians on the other hand is another thing all together.

AKA_TAGERT
01-22-2008, 07:22 PM
put down the comic book

Bremspropeller
01-22-2008, 07:55 PM
Ronnco, I found that one:


Nach insgesamt 13 Minuten und 45 Sekunden erreichte er die Erde.
Bei seinem Fall erreichte er die Geschwindigkeit von 988 km/h und überlebte Temperaturen von -80?C. Diverse Quellen sprechen gar von einer Maximalgeschwindigkeit von 1"²049 km/h und dem Durchbruch durch die Schallmauer.

"After 13 mins and 45 sec he finally reached the ground.
During his plunge, he reached the speed of 988km/h and he survived temperatures as low as -80?C. Some sources speak of a maximal speed of up to 1,049 km/h and thus exceeding the speed of sound."

qlc1
01-24-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
It did happen. Here's an example.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/zyvagin/zyvagin.htm

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/kybarev/kybarev.htm
wat an awsome site

qlc1
01-25-2008, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by M2morris:
I'm not one to shoot a bailed pilot in a parachute, but I sure must have scared the hell out of this guy with this little stunt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrUEtvJsgs
at that height,and speed of plane,you might as well have shot him.
the air disturbance under his chute would have made it collapse i think,not to mention you chopped his feet off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif