PDA

View Full Version : I thought I was good until I flew on Warbird Spits vs 109s



Spit_asuarus
04-22-2005, 05:55 PM
I usually dont like to post on forums but I felt that I needed to share what my experience was like flying on the Warbirds of Prey Spits vs 109s server. All I can say is that I got my butt handed to me. I thought that I was Mr Joe pilot and I also thought negative of this server when it was first introduced a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to see why everyone is talking about this server. Either they loved it or hated it. I must admit that I didn't like the server because of some of the posts I see comming from guys I've had respect for and flew with. I was a sheep lead astray. I still respect these guys but I'm not going to just believe anything they say about Warbirds of Prey Spits vs 109s server. Its amazing how opinions are formed before you even give something an honest chance and without an open mind. I was a little dismayed because the server that I enjoyed flying on for so long was going though so many changes with its Icons and deathkick settings. I suspect that it was because of the numbers going down on the server and the admin attempting to raise the level of gamelplay. All I can say now is that I am a convert to the world of flying without Icons and flying on Spits vs 109s. There is definately a skill to flying under these conditions that I did not think that I needed to master because I thought that they were a little extreme. Boy was I wrong. This sort of flying is an artform and it stirred up emotions within myself that I never had before while flying this sim online. The settings of this server is all about immersion and it is on an emotional level. The reason why I liked server with reasonable icon settings was only because I could see the aircraft better. I lables told me what kind of aircraft I saw and if it was a friend or foe. The lables were doing all the work for me from 2 k away amd all I had to do was just decide if I was in the right position to mount an attack or should I run. I never worried about being bounced at all because the lables were helping me out. It's allot different when you have to get real close to a aircraft durring the merge in order to ID and then execute a violent manuever in an effort to get the advantage and reaquire the aircraft before he reaquires you. With Icons I new that the aircraft was in range to shoot as soon as I saw the foe Icons. Spits vs 109s took me to an immersion level that I never thought was possible and that I never experienced before. You never know when yoou will get attacked and it is truely a server were the first person to spot the enemy is usually the victor. Another thing that caught my attention was how smooth the server runs. I flew through a furbal that was about 3000 feet and there were probably 15 aircraft and my computer ran smooth as wet ice. I admit that I have a real decent rig but I never experienced a server that smooth and I visited all the major servers. Other guys were complaining about stutters here and there but I always ran smooth. So I believe that it was not the server fault for ther troubles. Another cool thing that I liked about the server was that the bomber pilots were actually going after their targets and they were getting escorted. Sometimes I would see 8 bombers in mass going after the objectives. One of the biggest complaints I heard about the server was that there is a lack of teamwork and there were huge furballs close to the deck. The teamwork on this server was just as good and the pilots are just as good as the pilots on any other server. I'm really impressed that they were able work so well without the lables broadcasting friendly aircraft. I noticed that all the furballs were over the target areas which makes sense because the hosts makes there mission impossible to win with just pilot and plane kills. ell, I didn't mean to chat so much. Spits vs 109s is an excellent server .
My thanks goes to the administrators of Warbirds of Prey.

Jumoschwanz
04-23-2005, 09:10 AM
Welcome to the brotherhood of full-difficulty flyers.
The other day I was in a 109, I saw what I thought was a FW190 on formation with me, too bad for me it was a Hurri MKIIc, blew me to pieces. In WWII it happened here and there that allied and axis planes joined formations of enemy aircraft by mistake, this can't happen on a server with icons, just another example of the true to life and cool things that can happen on a no-icons server, that cannot happen on servers with easier settings, S!

Jumoschwanz

T_O_A_D
04-23-2005, 10:27 AM
Its a fun server. I joined the othernight, it was out of balance. I normally alwyas fly Allied but it was 20 to 8 so I choose blue. I took the 109 out and went hunting a target rich enviroment. I seen the Furball, but knew full well my skills in a 109 had no business down there. I was cruising at and around 13,000 feet and I saw a spec equal alt. I watched it coming and and then going right past a grid and a half away. So I turned into to it,and pulled right inbehind this Spitfire. As I get closer my heart is speeding up from the adrenilen, I begin thinking He has no clue. Why does he not here my engine. I always hear the 109 when its close. I am totaly out of control by now with the adrenilen rush I fire and hit him but not enough to destroy him. He smoke heavy and runs for the deck. I don't bother chasing him, kills or okay but getting home turns me on more. I then realise I'm low on fuel so I head home, I had to land on a road just barely on the Blue side of the line. I saw enemy aircraft destroyed but never saw who it was. I was hoping it was =AFJ=Locust since he likes to fly high, and I work with him in Real life, and fly wing with him time to time, but it wasn't.

I ended up haveing to walk around the house abit before I went back in . Then the next trip I got more agressive and tried the B&Z the furball. I got lucky and tore some ones wing off, and made it home.

My only complaint is and there is nothing we can do to fix it, is I wish we could fly customs skins, without lag on a public server.

repoman11
04-23-2005, 10:31 AM
If we could see as well as pilots in RL, I would have no problem with no icons. But we cannot. With resolution and monitor/video card technology being the limiting factors, I'll stick with GreaterGreen.

The hazards of no icon servers can be overcome for the most part by the use of comms. But due to bandwidth issues, I cannot use comms.

But if you guys are having fun, by all means continue.

FatBoyHK
04-23-2005, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by repoman11:
If we could see as well as pilots in RL, I would have no problem with no icons. But we cannot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People will realise it sooner or later. there are so many test being done on no-icon, and every one of them lead to low speed turnfight on the deck. But it isn't bad by any mean, it is actually being favored by the majority of player. However, it is not a setting for serious player. It does not work well with team tactics, and it does not favor historically correct/smart way of flying, i.e. Alt Adv

Both serious players and casual players can be excellent in term of skill, but they look for different kind of enjoyment.

NervousEnergy
04-23-2005, 01:07 PM
I have to agree with FatBoy....

I really enjoy this server and play it quite a bit (and recently put my money where my mouth is and registered as a paying member), but I don't harbor any illusion's that it's 'full real'. The view is simply too limited, and that leads to some very strange tactical realities.

One of the best illustrations is the tactic of 'Sharking'. You swim along, 50 feet above the deck or so, and look for the action playing the turning game at 100-3000 feet. When you find it (and you will, very quickly, as all things are easily visible when they're above you), you surge up from below, ID your target, and fire if it's an enemy. You then IMMEDIATLY dive back down to the deeps, rinse, repeat. This does take some discipline, as you cannot stay up after your ascent if you miss or only wound your enemy, as you yourself are in the kill zone with no energy. If you have the disciple to always dive back down, though, you're a very tough target to kill, as you're invisible. I've had great success with this in-game.

This is the single, glaring issue with no-icons. That tactic didn't work very well IRL, unless you always expected your enemy at low level (Eastern Front ground pounding attack and defense comes to mind). Any CAP pilot in the 3000-5000 feet range can spot you and likely make a good aircraft ID at 1000-2000 feet. You'd get bounced all the time. If you managed to fit the Predator's 22nd century active camo on the plane then perhaps you'd have the situation IRL that exists on the server. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Icons do rob some level of immersion, certainly. And I'll re-iterate: I greatly enjoy Spits vs 109's, and I also speak with my wallet. But I've spent too much time in the air in small planes myself (passenger only) to believe an aircraft can completely dissappear at 300 feet against ground clutter in bright, mid-day sunny conditions. I dont' knock the game, as we aren't running Cray's with medical-imaging class monitors, but going no-icon means living within that limitation. And that limit is much harder and less forgiving than reality.

Call_me_Kanno
04-23-2005, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:My only complaint is and there is nothing we can do to fix it, is I wish we could fly customs skins, without lag on a public server. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Osiris said skins were on there. Has he changed this?

IVJG51_Dart
04-23-2005, 02:00 PM
With Icons off you get MUCH closer to replicating the old adage of "Lose sight, lose the fight!"

As for this tactic called €œSharking€, well I just shake my head at that. It seems to me that employing that tactic, regardless of what server you€re flying (Icons off, or on) is just plain silly. That other old adage is Altitude = Life. Sharks quickly become guppies when they encounter someone who knows what they€re doing with E management.

T_O_A_D
04-23-2005, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Call_me_Kanno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:My only complaint is and there is nothing we can do to fix it, is I wish we could fly customs skins, without lag on a public server. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Osiris said skins were on there. Has he changed this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to get back on it today sometime. The few times I've been on I have seen no custom skins.

VW-IceFire
04-23-2005, 02:40 PM
Spit_asuarus, I'm sure you've got some good stuff to say but please....use paragraphs. Text on a screen is 25% harder to read than on a written page (thats a commonly accepted design industry rule) and thats just impossible.

For all of our eyes...

Cheers!

Badsight.
04-23-2005, 02:48 PM
people fly low because they are lazy & are looking for quick action

it takes mere minutes to reach 6K

DF rooms , no matter the settings , are AirQuake

TX-EcoDragon
04-23-2005, 02:56 PM
Sounds like it's worth a look, spits sure go boom nice! The BOP servers usually are pretty smooth too.

I have seen this "sharking" in action, at least in the deffensive sence, in a scrim situation with ground objectives one group was able to completely avoid engaging the other team as they were able to hide and complete one aspect of their mission. . . they would have been, as said by Dart, "guppies" . . . that is, if they were found, and it seems by this flying style that they knew it. But the weren't found, they were more or less invisible even from 4000 feet. I don't mind going to the deck in a 109, but an entire "blue" army down there. . . doesn't really make much sense. Too bad this is a rewarded behavior, in particular in maps with ground objectives.

Lixma
04-23-2005, 03:13 PM
If you're worried about no icons just map a button on your stick to zoom the view momentarily; make your i.d. and proceed.

Easy.

Charos
04-23-2005, 03:40 PM
Full switch and Icon servers are like night and day.

Agreed, there ARE Issues with computer games attempting to mimic reality in rosolving objects correctly to the human eye, BUT once you have spent the time to get used to it there is NO going back.


If you have relied on Icons doing the work for you then an Icon free server will initially appear very tough as you now have to WORK for every single contact you come across.

Possibly you never even gave a second thought to the general shapes of planes before, seemingly insignificant features NOW become amazingly important.

Team work also helps here, the lead can drop down and get an ID on the first pass while his wing stays high.

Once you become familiar with the general shapes and features of most aircraft if will become second nature to you.

Also make shore your Grey scales and monitor is set up properly or you will make it alot harder on yourself to ID and spot distant targets.

Full switch is a challange but one well worth taking on.

WOLFMondo
04-23-2005, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
people fly low because they are lazy & are looking for quick action

it takes mere minutes to reach 6K

DF rooms , no matter the settings , are AirQuake <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the targets on the ground, which it always is on DF servers why bother fly that high up? Most of the RAF text, books and memoirs I've read to do with fighters they seemed to do a whole lot more flying on the deck than they did up high.

OldMan____
04-23-2005, 05:14 PM
I disagree with who says no icons is less "team", less "smart flying".. on the oposite. You need to pay attention and communicate with your team.

It gives you the chance of flying really smart. No tatic is more smart than aproach not being seen. Ask any military of how much important this is.

I can now practice much more slashing attack fights, because most important thing in a BnZ is not be detected before time.


And dont start with this " human eye can see much better" resolution is not an issue when enemy is close... you can see it as well as in real life. And when it is farther away... you loose sight of him at a distance shorter than in real life... same thing than in WC and GG with limited icons.. where icons only appear in a distance where they are not necessary anymore for the attacker.

I love this server, it corrects the single bad thing on greater green. Serius flying.. only in full real servers (would even like no speed bar.. but I know many planes have poor cockpits and that would be unfair)

HellToupee
04-23-2005, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
people fly low because they are lazy & are looking for quick action

it takes mere minutes to reach 6K

DF rooms , no matter the settings , are AirQuake <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fighting at 6k is also airquake, the server happens to have objectives which cannot be completed when everyone plays airquake at 6k, i fly the beau some times and almost never ever have anyone assit me, met a spitfire once when i was in trouble and he turned around and shot me down because he thought i was trying to steal a kill of his.

I usually fly low also not because im trying to complete the objectives but seeing aircraft against the ground even when i know exactly where they are is just impossible.

Stachl
04-23-2005, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NervousEnergy:
I have to agree with FatBoy....

I really enjoy this server and play it quite a bit (and recently put my money where my mouth is and registered as a paying member), but I don't harbor any illusion's that it's 'full real'. The view is simply too limited, and that leads to some very strange tactical realities.

One of the best illustrations is the tactic of 'Sharking'. You swim along, 50 feet above the deck or so, and look for the action playing the turning game at 100-3000 feet. When you find it (and you will, very quickly, as all things are easily visible when they're above you), you surge up from below, ID your target, and fire if it's an enemy. You then IMMEDIATLY dive back down to the deeps, rinse, repeat. This does take some discipline, as you cannot stay up after your ascent if you miss or only wound your enemy, as you yourself are in the kill zone with no energy. If you have the disciple to always dive back down, though, you're a very tough target to kill, as you're _invisible._ I've had great success with this in-game.

This is the single, glaring issue with no-icons. That tactic didn't work very well IRL, unless you always expected your enemy at low level (Eastern Front ground pounding attack and defense comes to mind). Any CAP pilot in the 3000-5000 feet range can spot you and likely make a good aircraft ID at 1000-2000 feet. You'd get bounced all the time. If you managed to fit the Predator's 22nd century active camo on the plane then perhaps you'd have the situation IRL that exists on the server. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Icons do rob some level of immersion, certainly. And I'll re-iterate: I greatly enjoy Spits vs 109's, and I also speak with my wallet. But I've spent too much time in the air in small planes myself (passenger only) to believe an aircraft can completely dissappear at 300 feet against ground clutter in bright, mid-day sunny conditions. I dont' knock the game, as we aren't running Cray's with medical-imaging class monitors, but going no-icon means living within that limitation. And that limit is much harder and less forgiving than reality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever heard the term "slow worm" from WWII? It was a Luftwaffe code word/order that was often given when a particular airfield was in danger of being attacked. Under a 'slow worm' the aircraft on the affected airfield were to take off immediately and stay at low level the whole flight, avoid any enemy contact until the attack was over, and then come back and land. Btw, this particular tactic was very effective and saved the heavily outnumbered Luftwaffe many aircraft. However, I suppose they wouldn't have used the 'slow worm' if NervousEnergy had been there in his piper pointing out where they were or, of course, if there had been icons. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Charos
04-23-2005, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:

And dont start with this " human eye can see much better" resolution is not an issue when enemy is close... you can see it as well as in real life. And when it is farther away... you loose sight of him at a distance shorter than in real life... same thing than in WC and GG with limited icons.. where icons only appear in a distance where they are not necessary anymore for the attacker.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On one hand you state that resolution is not an Issue and then on the other that you loose sight sooner than in RL at long range.

Contacts at MID range have rendering issues they can seemigly dissapear altogehter on occasion.

You can easily lose sight of an attacker at short range without Icons, even if for an instant. It always makes a difference.

The reason why there are more TK's on Non Icon servers is because even at close range people have heavily Relied on Icons to assist in Target ID.

So yes Icons do play a huge role even at very close ranges, Even more so if you have multiple AC milling around in close proximity, trying to work out who is who as fast as possible.

Badsight.
04-23-2005, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
If the targets on the ground, which it always is on DF servers why bother fly that high up? Most of the RAF text, books and memoirs I've read to do with fighters they seemed to do a whole lot more flying on the deck than they did up high. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>& how many players do you see flying under 2k ?

people fly low because everyone else flys low & they are dot hunting looking for a dot quick

lazy

Badsight.
04-23-2005, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HellToupee:
met a spitfire once when i was in trouble and he turned around and shot me down because he thought i was trying to steal a kill of his. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i dont know what to say , that would just blow my mind

chilicheese
04-23-2005, 06:26 PM
I'm with Nervous - fun to stay REAL low and snipe. Yes, it requires less skill, but I've had success at it. Catching a 109 low is cash money in a Spit, as is swooping up under with an Immelman on a Spit with a 109. A 190 sharking is nearly unstoppable.

Apologies, by the way, to 401Beagle. Lost my temper, chief.

OldMan____
04-23-2005, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:

And dont start with this " human eye can see much better" resolution is not an issue when enemy is close... you can see it as well as in real life. And when it is farther away... you loose sight of him at a distance shorter than in real life... same thing than in WC and GG with limited icons.. where icons only appear in a distance where they are not necessary anymore for the attacker.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On one hand you state that resolution is not an Issue and then on the other that you loose sight sooner than in RL at long range.

Contacts at MID range have rendering issues they can seemigly dissapear altogehter on occasion.

You can easily lose sight of an attacker at short range without Icons, even if for an instant. It always makes a difference.

The reason why there are more TK's on Non Icon servers is because even at close range people have heavily Relied on Icons to assist in Target ID.

So yes Icons do play a huge role even at very close ranges, Even more so if you have multiple AC milling around in close proximity, trying to work out who is who as fast as possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem you state is not caused by resolution, but by color and pixel luminance precision. A pixel can have only 255 levels of illumintation.. from nothing to maximum. In real life you have thousands times more ilumination range.

I am prerry aware of this problem since I face it at game I work on. But this is not a resolution issue (the mid range plane simply disapears). This can be diminished by using perfect mode (pixel shaders )and by tweaking you monitor parameters at control panel.


Again.. resolution does not cause BIG problems (ok.. may cause small ones) on no icons when compared to limited icons.. exactly because at range that it starts to be aprolem.. you have no icons even at icons ON servers!!!

Charos
04-23-2005, 08:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:

the problem you state is not caused by resolution, but by color and pixel luminance precision. A pixel can have only 255 levels of illumintation.. from nothing to maximum. In real life you have thousands times more ilumination range.

I am prerry aware of this problem since I face it at game I work on. But this is not a resolution issue (the mid range plane simply disapears). This can be diminished by using perfect mode (pixel shaders )and by tweaking you monitor parameters at control panel.


Again.. resolution does not cause BIG problems (ok.. may cause small ones) on no icons when compared to limited icons.. exactly because at range that it starts to be aprolem.. you have no icons even at icons ON servers!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Resolution: One Meaning -

The act or process of separating or reducing something into its constituent parts: the prismatic resolution of sunlight into its spectral colors.

or

The fineness of detail that can be distinguished in an image.


Im not a computer programmer nor am I an ocular physician and was not talking of resolution as in 1024*768 on a monitor, if that is what your indicating above, which you may of since thats your field of expertise.
I assume by 255 levels of illumination this is also termed the "Grey scale"?. If so I did make mention of this in my first post as well.

I originally said "Agreed, there ARE Issues with computer games attempting to mimic reality in rosolving objects correctly to the human eye".

This was not a statement about Monitor Resolution per se as it was about the resolution of the human eye resolving detail from it. A monitor displays via pixel elements which are rather large in physical size - the human eye can RESOLVE much smaller detail than these and therefore you will lose detail in the conversion process.

There of course are many many factors that will affect a humans perception of an image from a monitor of which you no doubt are fully versed in, like most things its full of compromise.

Jumoschwanz
04-23-2005, 09:08 PM
I don't have any trouble identifying aircraft on no icons servers. Maybe it is because I run 1200X1600 resolution. I can often look at a dot and recognize it by it's silouette, and if I am not sure i can hit Page Down for a telescopic view and see it better even.

I have four friendly kills out of 109 on this server, but only one was an accident, three were a$$-hats I shot down on purpose after they pissed me off shooting over my shoulder.

So that is less than 1% error in identifying my targets, and I am certified color blind!

Those that rail against no icons servers are usually the ones that are afraid to try something new, or have an inferiority complex about how someone can enjoy and/or do well on settings they cannot, so they have to tear it down of course.

I don't give a **** about old wonder-woman jocks like Redeth, who accused me of making up facts to support the no-icons servers.

What I do give a krap about is the new virtual pilots coming into this sim reading false and negative comments from those who are afraid the no-icons movement makes them look like little school girls.

Fly what you enjoy, fly wonder woman, or with nice tags attached to the aircraft to tell you what they are, but let the youngsters find out what they like on their own and read positive posts from those that enjoy the sim, not negative posts from 1diots.

If you enjoy icons and wonder woman servers write a nice positive thread about your passion, you will look way better than if all you have the brains to do is crash others parties and rain on thier parade, we like no icons here get it dummies? We don't care for your opinions, they don't mean anything, we are enjoying ourselves, go enjoy yourself if you can figure out how and get the F78ck out of our threads and our servers! S!

Jumoschwanz

NervousEnergy
04-23-2005, 09:16 PM
Wow... a rarity on the Ubi forums... a server settings discussion that's gone over one page without degenerating into a pointless flame war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for this tactic called €œSharking€, well I just shake my head at that. It seems to me that employing that tactic, regardless of what server you€re flying (Icons off, or on) is just plain silly. That other old adage is Altitude = Life. Sharks quickly become guppies when they encounter someone who knows what they€re doing with E management. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In reality, absolutely. In a no-icon game... I have to wonder how much time you've spent flying Warbirds Sv109 if you think this is a valid counter statement to the attack pattern I described.

Say I'm in a clip wing spit at 20 feet, and you're up in your FW at 3000-5000 feet, a typical altitude if your doing target CAP, hunting strike aircraft. You WILL NOT see me, unless it's a winter map (and I should have also said in my original post that Sharking isn't very effective in winter maps). Now, I see a 109 at 250 feet, and I zoom up and nail him. You see the tracers from your lofty hight, and put your 190 into a steep dive. After I've made my shot, I dive back down to 20 feet, make a few radical turns in case the 109 survived the pass and kept an eye on my vector as I dived, then I extend. Unless you take that 190 to lawnmower level and actually try and get BELOW me, you WILL NOT see me. At best you'll be passing through 1000 feet by the time I get on the deck, and my dot will completely disappear against the ground clutter.

The issue isn't identification, it's simply having a clue there's anything there to even look at. A simple, casual glance at 1000 feet out the window of a real plane will instantly reveal any aircraft below you, even one on the deck. You may not be able to instantly tell what kind of plane it is, but the fact that something's moving there is simply something you can't miss.

Identification really isn't a problem as long as you have good equipment. The wing shape (especially at the root) is pretty different among the aircraft types, and the markings are hard to mistake (as long as players use the correct ones.) I do pity those who don't have a TIR3P and a nice stick with different FOV settings mapped to a hat, as I couldn't imagine playing without them.

The issue is that the plane is simply gone when it's below you, even at very short ranges. This gives a huge advantage to flying low, and robs the energy fighter of much of the advantage he should have.

Edit: I should say after reading Jumo's post, that this is still in no way a slam against Svs109's. I love the server and play there often, and urge new players to jump in (but be sure you learn target identification http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). I'm just debating the tactical handicaps BandZ, medium - high alt players have that they shouldn't.

HellToupee
04-23-2005, 09:39 PM
flying the the deck and your pretty much invisable to anything other than pretty at the same height. Combine vis against ground with my hatswitch for looking around and those massive cogpit struts and fights get very frustrating.

IVJG51_Dart
04-23-2005, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In reality, absolutely. In a no-icon game... I have to wonder how much time you've spent flying Warbirds Sv109 if you think this is a valid counter statement to the attack pattern I described. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehe. I've spent time in there, as well as PLENTY of other FR based events/servers. I think over the years I've gathered enough experience to come up with my statements. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Charos
04-24-2005, 12:31 AM
Im with Dart.

Either our Jabo group will radio your position in or the High cover will split and one element will drop down for a High speed popup.

He who has the most E in the bank with a good management plan will more often than not prevail.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-24-2005, 12:41 AM
I like 109 vs. Spit, finally a no icon server that has people in it.

As for "sharking", it can be effective in the right aircraft. But honestly I think it works just as well on a server like Warclouds as it does on 109 vs. Spit. Keeping your head on a swivel and having good situational awareness is also a good counter to this. Sharking is really only effective at targeting aircraft that are also down low and moving slower than you are, in which case they deserve to be shot down. Still, all I can say is that squads like ours, IVJG51, Blazing Magnums, etc., have been at this a long time (full difficulty settings) and are comfortable with these settings, much moreso than with icons (friendly or enemy). And as a note, I can usually identify aircraft (at least friendly or enemy) before icons come on in most servers anyway.

Anyway, to each his own, fly what you like. I just don't agree with some of what is being said here, no icons takes a long time to get used to and I think some may feel differently if they flew without them 90+% of the time.

Having said all of this, I still believe there are issues with aircraft visibility and it is one of my biggest wishes for it to be addressed.

FatBoyHK
04-24-2005, 02:09 AM
Jumo,

1. not everyone has a 1600x1200 monitor like you do.

2. please stop provoking flame wars. My squadmate reddeth asked for proof of your quote in a civilized way, although you have them presented, it doesn't mean that you are free to attack him verbally. And you even did an extra step of carrying this matter into another thread. It is too much, stop it.

3. Don't call the people who don't agree with you dummies and 1dlots . It actaully make you look like a dummies and 1dlots instead.... And because you keep using "we" in your post, you actually make everyone in your camp look like dummies and 1dlots too. I do belief that the majority of people who love the no-icon setting would respect the people who don't like the no-icon setting (and vice versa). Don't try to drag these honorable people into your level.

Freelancer-1
04-24-2005, 03:04 AM
Well, I tried Warbirds Spits vs 109s for the first time the other night and had a blast. I only shot down one friendly (An allied bomber with german markings...Wierd) and got myself killed lots and lots.

It certainly helps if your on coms with a team-mate or two, but not necessary.

I'll definitely head back over when I get the chance. It certanly adds a new dimension to the game when there are no icons. Maybe not for everyone but as they say, "Don't knock it till you try it."

JuHa-
04-24-2005, 03:54 AM
Just a word or two about sharking:

I'm not an expert on-line flyer, beginner would be closer to truth. However, I've got my best
results by flying a bit lower than my targets, as then I can spot them easily. After spotting I
just manouver myself in proper position and swim in. It's all about suprise and the first burst
hitting, in my flying.

And I don't limit myself to surf on the ground, this works well on relative alt levels too.
Only that someone could be stalking me when flying higher than 100m http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equally important is to do a quick getaway after the first attack, as the tracers will
bring in lots of planes in the next 30s or so.
By then I better be far away, cooling the engine
and planning the next attack.

This has worked much better than just furballing (there's always somebody else too) or
BnZ'n into the furball. But to work, either limited Icons or no-Icons is required.


just my 2 cents.

Alexi_Alx_Anova
04-24-2005, 04:00 AM
Great server. I personally turn my speedbar off for added immersion. Nice stats, but don't beleive them! For instance, apparently I've only ever landed safely once! LOL.

OldMan____
04-24-2005, 05:14 AM
Just a few sttements:


No 255 levels is not about greyscale, is about color saturation used to imply illumination. That kind of issue is what High Range Dinamic Lighting tries to solve.


Usually that is not called resolution since resolution is deeply bound to a the pixel resolution. Pixel resolution is not an issue related to panes disapearing at mid range. Color or illumination "resolution" is.

That won`t change so soon I think, there are already few suggestion of standards to monitors capable of 16 thousand illumintaion levels. But will take time to come by.



About not being able to see someone at deck form 5000 ft .... WHAT? What kind of VGA do you have? I can see plane at deck while flying at 10.000 or 12 000 ft easily. In some maps even at 15 000.



And just one wquestion.. why in hell would I go to 20 000 ft when there is no BOMBER flying that altitude to intercept/protect? Do you think combat was at that altitude in RL because what? Because the view was more beutifull? No! Just because B17 were there!!!

We don't have big bomber high.. so no sense on going high. Going high when bombers ar on deck is NOT REaLISTIC.

Raptor_20thFG
04-24-2005, 06:47 AM
I agree with many members this is an excellent server and I enjoy the challenge


S`

Jumoschwanz
04-24-2005, 06:50 AM
Yes, the stats kept by FBD never add up, miss many details and are not really worth a krap, but stats are not why we are there in the first place right?

Before FBD someone would start a server with the computer they flew with also, if they had a good cable connection it worked great for around twenty planes. There was no map rotation, no stats, and everyone would learn the map and fight for hours and have fun until they were too tired to fly anymore.

FBD is a nice attempt to do something for the sim and I thank those who put time into it, but the stats it keeps are not accurate, and I would like to see the maps not rotate so fast, maybe have a battle last a day or two instead of an hour or two? There must have been lots of conflicts that lasted this long? Poeple would have time to get used to the map and when someone won a one or two or more day battle, that would be news!

S!
Jumoschwanz

Clan_Graham
04-24-2005, 07:59 AM
I'm an icon flyer by nature but latey I've found myself drifting over to Spits vs 109's a fair bit.
Man, it's a whole new ball game in there and I get my butt handed to me on a silver platter on a regular basis and 9 out of 10 times I get shot down I never even see the guy who did it!
To date I have only managed three kills in that server but given the amount of work that I had to do to get them, the satisfaction level went up considerably
I don't see Spits vs 109's as a better server.
I see it as a different server.
This game affords us the opportunity to play in several different styles and you should play whatever style turns your crank.
I think I'll stick with my icon servers but I will certainly be dropping in on Spits vs 109's on a regular basis. It's a lot of fun in there. It's a different kind of fun...but fun just the same.
(That, and I wouldn't want to deprive any of you guys of an easy kill.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

~S~
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/Shrike401/dogfightresized.jpg

Jumoschwanz
04-24-2005, 08:05 PM
Clan_Graham,

You hit it right on the head. S!

Jumoschwanz

Lucius_Esox
04-25-2005, 07:45 AM
I love it and one thing I'm gonna do right after I finish writing this is to do some experimenting with my monitor and colour settings. I have had difficulty (once!) with mistaking a clipped wing Spit and a 190, sorry m8..

Mysticpuma2003
04-25-2005, 08:10 AM
Well I really like this server. Even though a lot of servers claim to be 'full'real', I am soooooooooo pleased that they kept white plane on the minimap.

I remember (I think) that Greater Green used full real and got rid of the white plane......wow...now that took ages to get anywhere (for me!) o I'm really pleased that they kept it here.

I have a 19in TFT monitor with 1280x1024 resolution, and when I'm at 3-4k alt it is very difficult to pick out any planes against the water and forests.
But this is far out-weighed by the fun I have on it.
So-far, I have killed two friendlies. One being Superdave who I shot at 720k/mh in a P-47 using B'n'Z tactics on his FW-190....only to see that the blur going past me was a P-51! and the other was in a Seafire in which I rammed another Seafire waiting to take-off on the same carrier...which I never saw over the engine of mine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway...awesome server give it a go.
Cheers, Puma.

LeadSpitter_
04-25-2005, 08:20 AM
OldMan____ is correct, its all about the monitors dot pitch, also adjusting contrast. color and brightness in your videocards settings helps alot.

I have a .21 dot pitch monitor and Im able to see dots across the entire map on the deck or high alt, snow maps i can see planes on the deck at 10,000m as a huge dot.

So maybe thats the problem with people not able to see dots .25 or higher dot pitch monitors.

HeinzBar
04-25-2005, 11:47 AM
S!,
Honestly, I don't see what the fuss is all about. Many of us have been flying for years w/o icons. It's as simple as mapping a key to toggle them on and off. Additionally, the online wars forced folks to fly w/no icons. It's as if the no icon mentality is a new thing?? The best compromise is the limited icon. Servers can set the icons to what the community wants to be used. You can't please everyone, but it's a start. And, if the more hardcore, like myself, want to fly w/o icons, well, it's a key toggle away.

Both settings involve different skills. The downside would be the old 'hardware rulez' advantage. Those players that can afford the latest hardware that allow greater recognition have an advantage...I'm not saying it's a show stopper, but it can be discouraging to some.

my $.02
HB

PS,
LS, what vidcard are you using and settings? I use a .22dot Hatachi CRT flat screen. I must admit that I still have trouble seeing dots against summer maps and dark water.

Tvrdi
04-25-2005, 12:07 PM
well, most of us who are here from 2001/2. learned, till now, how to fly with full real..not just without icons, but also without path on the map,...so, when u mastered flying with easier settings then its time to try with harder settings....problem is that most of the guys dont want to throw away their dummies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif IMO icons reminds me that Im in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif so I hate them

tolodada
04-25-2005, 12:34 PM
as this is about Spitvs109 ...
The only thing I dont like here is you REALLY DONT
HAVE A CHANCE in a 109G6 vs a spitfire, unless you
encounter it beeing in a favourable situation ..

TacticalYak3
04-25-2005, 01:03 PM
I remember my own excitment when I made the switch from customized icons to no icons. However, never believed for a second that the greater challenge met more realism - just a new challenge to enjoy.

With fresh eyes and a good display no icons are enjoyable. Tired eyes and/or a crappy system and the joy can disappear rather quick.

And by the way why does it seem like folks suggest flight combat techniques are thrown out the window with icons? Absolutely they help ID quickly but one still needs to employ tactics to win the battle.

Finally, getting back to the server - yes good performance. Funny though, my one and only time playing on it I shot down a FW in a Spit and was told not to "S!" him as I was flying an uber plane. OK, sorry for that I guess (but it is Spits vs FW right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif ).

TactS!

HellToupee
04-26-2005, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by tolodada:
as this is about Spitvs109 ...
The only thing I dont like here is you REALLY DONT
HAVE A CHANCE in a 109G6 vs a spitfire, unless you
encounter it beeing in a favourable situation ..

take a g2 then, its capable of sticking with a spit 9 in a turn fight.

Jumoschwanz
04-27-2005, 03:00 PM
The whole key to it is to learn to put yourself in a favorable situation, then it does not matter what plane you are in.

Best server on Hyperlobby. S!~

Jumoschwanz