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tigertalon
01-15-2007, 08:17 PM
I have tested many planes in PF about burning and described the results here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5981049425) .

In this thread I'd like to report some bugs I stumbled upon during testing. What do all these bugs have in common is, that the spot where bullets hit and the outbreak of a fire are (very) inconsistent.


1. Mosquito

First of all, mosquito burns extremely easily, comparable to early japanese planes - on the screenshots below it is clear it burned after some 5-10 7.7mm hits.

Secondly, you can set it on fire by shooting not only at the fuel tank (which is inboard of the engine), but as well by shooting at outer part of the wing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Mossie_2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Mossie.jpg


2. B17G

You can set outter fuel tank on fire by shooting at it (there is everything ok up to now):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_3.jpg

or by shooting inbetween the engines. Now this is wrong, especially because there is another fuel tank between the engines, which you can not set ablaze by shooting at it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_1.jpg

You can, however, set this fueltank on fire by shooting the wingroot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_2.jpg

The problem is mirrored on the starboard wing.


3. B24J

On the port wing: If you shoot at the outer fueltank, the inner one will start burning:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B24J_1.jpg

and vice versa, if you shoot the inner one, the outer will start burning:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B24J_2.jpg

There is no problem on the starboard wing.


4. Hellcat

The starboard wingroot can be set aflame without much trouble:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Hellcat_1.jpg

however, if you shoot at the port wingroot, the starboard one will burst into flames:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Hellcat_2.jpg

This bug exists on both versions of hellcat.

5. N1K1-J(a)

You can set the starboard wingroot aflame without much trouble, after 10 or 20 accurate 7.7mm hits:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_N1K1_1.jpg

while it seems that fuel tank in port wing is not modelled. I have put a few thousand bullets into port wingroot, and nothing happened, not even a fuelleak:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_N1K1_2.jpg

Keep in mind that this is the AI early version of Shiden. On flyable N1K2-J, you can set neither wingroot on fire, although the plane had fueltanks in the wingroots (like all previous versions). You can not even damage the plane with 7.7mm no matter how many bullets you put in there.

6. Tu-2S

Looks like the inner starboard fuel tank is not modelled, as it won't leak etc. no matter how many bullets you put into it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/PatternTu2.jpg

That's it for now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

tigertalon
01-15-2007, 08:17 PM
I have tested many planes in PF about burning and described the results here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5981049425) .

In this thread I'd like to report some bugs I stumbled upon during testing. What do all these bugs have in common is, that the spot where bullets hit and the outbreak of a fire are (very) inconsistent.


1. Mosquito

First of all, mosquito burns extremely easily, comparable to early japanese planes - on the screenshots below it is clear it burned after some 5-10 7.7mm hits.

Secondly, you can set it on fire by shooting not only at the fuel tank (which is inboard of the engine), but as well by shooting at outer part of the wing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Mossie_2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Mossie.jpg


2. B17G

You can set outter fuel tank on fire by shooting at it (there is everything ok up to now):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_3.jpg

or by shooting inbetween the engines. Now this is wrong, especially because there is another fuel tank between the engines, which you can not set ablaze by shooting at it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_1.jpg

You can, however, set this fueltank on fire by shooting the wingroot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B17G_2.jpg

The problem is mirrored on the starboard wing.


3. B24J

On the port wing: If you shoot at the outer fueltank, the inner one will start burning:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B24J_1.jpg

and vice versa, if you shoot the inner one, the outer will start burning:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_B24J_2.jpg

There is no problem on the starboard wing.


4. Hellcat

The starboard wingroot can be set aflame without much trouble:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Hellcat_1.jpg

however, if you shoot at the port wingroot, the starboard one will burst into flames:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_Hellcat_2.jpg

This bug exists on both versions of hellcat.

5. N1K1-J(a)

You can set the starboard wingroot aflame without much trouble, after 10 or 20 accurate 7.7mm hits:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_N1K1_1.jpg

while it seems that fuel tank in port wing is not modelled. I have put a few thousand bullets into port wingroot, and nothing happened, not even a fuelleak:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Bug_N1K1_2.jpg

Keep in mind that this is the AI early version of Shiden. On flyable N1K2-J, you can set neither wingroot on fire, although the plane had fueltanks in the wingroots (like all previous versions). You can not even damage the plane with 7.7mm no matter how many bullets you put in there.

6. Tu-2S

Looks like the inner starboard fuel tank is not modelled, as it won't leak etc. no matter how many bullets you put into it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/PatternTu2.jpg

That's it for now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

F19_Olli72
01-16-2007, 05:12 AM
Good tests. But you should've posted in the Open beta test thread, which is really a bug report thread.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/claudesig.jpg
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tigertalon
01-16-2007, 06:53 AM
Update: Comparing Ki-21 and B-25 vulnerability to fire. I set up 4 of each bombers, and set both of their tanks on fire. I ceased firing immediately when I saw thick black smoke or fire from the fueltank.

Results:

B25 fuel tanks burn nicely after a few well laid 7.7 hits, they don't even start smoking 'black', they just burn up directly from the fuelleak:

1st plane:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/B-25_1.jpg

2nd plane:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/B-25_2.jpg

3rd:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/B-25_3.jpg

and the last one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/B-25_4.jpg



And now for the Ki-21 (early). It's a lot harder to put this plane on fire. It never catched the fire immediately, it started pouring black smoke instead. I guess I needed on average 2 or 3 times more hits to start black smoke, compared to the number of hits I needed to set B-25 on fire (!).

Results:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_2.jpg

note, that on below scrshot the fire started a minute or so after I hit the plane, but I took the screenshot a bit later to get rid of that stupid cloud saying RTB etc.:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_4.jpg


Then it took additional few minutes for them to start burning:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_5.jpg

and some more to start exploding:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Ki-21_6.jpg

As most of other bombers (save the He111) behave like a B-25, it seems Ki-21 is way to tough to set on fire.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

msalama
01-16-2007, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...it seems Ki-21 is way to tough to set on fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Overall yes, but take a look at these tracks nevertheless:

P-39N-1 vs. Ki-21-II (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-39_vs_Ki-21.ntrk) P-40B vs. Ki-21-I (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-40B_vs_Ki-21-I_2.ntrk)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

tigertalon
01-17-2007, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...it seems Ki-21 is way to tough to set on fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Overall yes, but take a look at these tracks nevertheless:

P-39N-1 vs. Ki-21-II (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-39_vs_Ki-21.ntrk) P-40B vs. Ki-21-I (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/P-40B_vs_Ki-21-I_2.ntrk) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I reviewed the tracks. You flamed those two '21s without much trouble it seems. However, on the one with P39 you flamed the engine (which is not the subject of my testing). With P40 you flamed up the fueltank nicely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Still, one time instance is a poor proof (I for example cut the entire tail and rear fuselage section of a F4F with a short burst from Mc202_III online).

I encourage you to take look at this: Ki-43 vs B25J, Ki-21 (http://s5.quicksharing.com/v/4638479/quick0417.ntrk.html). I purely focused on setting fuel tanks, not the engines, on fire.

B25 in a combat enviroment is harder to set ablaze simply because of deadlier gunners and of weaker weapons of the attacker (on average).

Absolute bomber champion about burning is He111 by far, followed by Ki21.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

tigertalon
01-17-2007, 11:53 AM
Continuing with bug reporting:

Looks like Me210 shares the bug with Bf110. No matter which part of whichever wing you hit, only right wing will start burning, inside of engine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Me210_4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Me_210_5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Me210_6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/4071%20Fire%20Testing/Me210_2.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

DKoor
01-17-2007, 12:07 PM
Tiger I think that tests with 12,7 caliber would be more interesting... (Ki-43-II); also while you're at it check Beaufighter too.
Anyway good tests, thanks for the effort.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5638/g14hartmannlh1.jpg (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page)<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@ STURMOVIK?: 1946 - coming November 2006 in ETO and Australia

VFS-22_SPaRX
01-17-2007, 03:20 PM
Just got a simple question.

Got Fuel Line?

The fuel has to pass from the Tanks to the engine somehow. You think that maybe you are hitting the fuel lines in some of these instances? Control cables are in the DM, why would Fuel lines not be?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

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tigertalon
01-17-2007, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Tiger I think that tests with 12,7 caliber would be more interesting... (Ki-43-II); also while you're at it check Beaufighter too.
Anyway good tests, thanks for the effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I was experimenting with .50 cal browning, however they seem too strong as they more often cause structural failure than burning (especially when shooting at outer part of the wings).

Beaufighter is impossible to set on fire by shooting its wings, as is Pe-8 (out of planes I tested so far). I don't know where Beaufighter had its fueltanks, but Pe-8 probably did have them in the wings, eh? So, can anyone provide me with a beaufighter cut away or any other document indicating where fuel tanks are? It seems to me it's only possible to set beaufighter on fire if you shoot the engines from the front, with long accourate bursts. No way of burning the plane from behind, regardless if you are hitting engines, fuselage, wings... it did have fuel stored somewhere, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

tigertalon
01-17-2007, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Just got a simple question.

Got Fuel Line?

The fuel has to pass from the Tanks to the engine somehow. You think that maybe you are hitting the fuel lines in some of these instances? Control cables are in the DM, why would Fuel lines not be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be, although I doubt it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

msalama
01-17-2007, 09:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Still, one time instance is a poor proof. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, definitely, or to be more precise it doesn't really prove anything in isolation. What it seems to indicate, though, is that there're more sensitive areas in the DM too.

Whether this is correct or not is however open to debate, of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I purely focused on setting fuel tanks, not the engines, on fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, thanks. Will take a look at it later on when I've more time. S!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!

msalama
01-18-2007, 09:53 AM
OK, watched it. A very illuminating demonstration of the DM differences between these two bombers.

I expressed myself a bit funnily up there, BTW. That's what you get when you reply @ 07:00 AM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif What I meant was that the overall _toughness_ of the bird - apart from those soft DM areas evident in my tracks - invites scrutiny. HTH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!