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Red Allert
08-24-2004, 02:05 AM
Why did Hungary and Romania allied with Germans and enterred the war? Any links?

Red Allert
08-24-2004, 02:05 AM
Why did Hungary and Romania allied with Germans and enterred the war? Any links?

Jasko76
08-24-2004, 02:17 AM
I don't know, but I doubt it was on volontary basis. At least, the common people didn't support it. Yugoslavia was supposed to take the same path, only in Yugoslavia, people protested violently, making the king tear the agreement with Germany. In April 1941 the answer from Berlin came - an all out attack.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.yumodel.co.yu/history_of_yugoslav_aviation/slike/bf109g6.jpg

I rulez - You not!

SheerLuckHolmes
08-24-2004, 03:18 AM
In 1940 Soviet Union took parts of Romania. Just like they took all Baltic countries. Maybe they thaught in Hungary and in Romania that it won't be long before S.U. takes rest of the small countries ( between Germany and S.U. )

Just a thought though...

SheerLuck Holmes

SUPERAEREO
08-24-2004, 05:27 AM
The Bolshevik government and the expansionistic policies of the USSR were perceived as a real and present danger by the right-wing dictatorships that ruled both countries, and when the Germans invaded they were only too happy to join in in order to secure new territories in the East and push the Soviet menace away from their borders.

It is worth noting that Bulgaria was also a German ally but never declared war on the Soviet Union.

Romania and Bulgaria changed sides in 1944 when the Russians armies were entering their countries, while the Hungarian armed forces fought on with the Wehrmacht until the final surrender.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

Zayets
08-24-2004, 05:30 AM
This is a sensible question and it cannot be answered in a single post,but I will do my best.

Note that I will explain this from the Romanian perspective,I don't know much about Hungary and 2nd WW2,but sure, somebody else knows,I will try to find someone from Hungary to explain this,have lot of friends there as well.So here it goes.

In years '30's Romanian (kingdom at the time) experienced about 3 dictatorships (Carol 2nd and few other but the whole details evades me atm).By 1938 when Hitler had already the plans to invade Poland , general Antonescu overthrown Carol 2nd (well, forced him to abdicate) and installed his son , Michael 1st (which btw was only 19 at the time).Antonescu was a 100% against bolshewism and communism by formation , he hated them.But was not this why Romania joined Germany. After Ribentropp-Molotov pact between Germany and USSR , Romania lost something like 1/3 from the nort and eastern provinces in Moldavia(basarabia etc),to complete the picture,following Viena dictat,a pretty big chunk from Transylvania was given to Horthy (which was already allied with Hitler).Form that moment on , a competition between Horthy and Antonescu begins , to gain Fuhrer's favor. Hitler needed Romanian oil (actually the only natural reserve which Germany had during WW2) , thus the deal was ,very simply put, Romania in the war next to Germany and in return , Romania would get back what was given away following Ribbentrop - Molotov pact.
What was next everybody knows , Germany started to lose the war , Antonescu remained ,as he said for honor, with Germany , but he was arrested by the kings men (which secretly negociated with allies).
The subject is very complex and exposes big wounds and trust me , nobody wants to do this here. Is something like the Warsaw Uprising .
But to answer the original question , Hungary and Romania fought next to Germany because they had common intersts. Horthy knew that once Romania in the axis , they would never claim back what he got in 40 in Vienna , and Romania wanted back at least what was given away following R-M pact. What was the end of the story , everybody knows, Romania got back the part from Transylvania , but nothing from what was already included in USSR teritory.
Sorry if I was too long.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Zayets
08-24-2004, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
The Bolshevik government and the expansionistic policies of the USSR were perceived as a real and present danger by the right-wing dictatorships that ruled both countries, and when the Germans invaded they were only too happy to join in in order to secure new territories in the East and push the Soviet menace away from their borders.

It is worth noting that Bulgaria was also a German ally but never declared war on the Soviet Union.

Romania and Bulgaria changed sides in 1944 when the Russians armies were entering their countries, while the Hungarian armed forces fought on with the Wehrmacht until the final surrender.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg to differ.This was not our war,not even Hungary or Romania were happy to ally with Hitler.Same with Bulgaria.
As for the fact that Hungary didn't changed sides,well,they tried,but Germany control of Hungary was WAY stronger than in Romania or Bulgaria.
You were partialy right when you said that dictatorship perceived communism as a threat,but the correct answer is , everybody perceived communism as a real threat,and that was proven after the end of WW2,maybe you know, what was known as cold war.
In prewar years, in Romania was a highly anticommunist spirit,also because following Ribentrop-Molotov pact 1/3 of the teritory was given to USSR.That amplified this spirit.
Besides,if Romania didn't allied with Germany,there were no options.Traditionally,Romania was a France ally,but France didn't existed in 1940 as power.UK was busy fighting BoB and Russia was ready at our borders for us to share the same fate as Poland.You see,not many options.
Simply put , from two evils , pick the least evil.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Friendly_flyer
08-24-2004, 08:51 AM
I have read that the Hungarians saw the start of WWII as a sort of "2nd round" of WWI. The Austria-Hungarian Empire being on the loosing side in that conflict, they saw it as a chance to get even. As the war progressed, the enthusiasm for the war dampened, but by then it was a bit late. All in all a rather sad story.

Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman
Norway

joeap
08-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Thank you Zayets, More or less what I've read about both countries. Though I expect it was tragic for Romania to send soldiers all the way to Stalingrad when they just wanted to recover Bessarabia, like Finland did. I wanted to ask about the Holocaust in both countries but maybe it would be better for someone to send me the info by e-mail on some reading I don't want to start a nasty discussion...anyway I kind of like the IAR-80.

Zayets
08-24-2004, 11:21 AM
If you are interested here are some links.All forums are in English:

http://www.worldwar2.ro (a nice site)
http://arr.go.ro (aviation only,in fact is the child site of the first one)

About the Holocaust, Romania was no stranger , although a smaller actor in this area.But fact is that Romanian Jews were quite protected.Not all of them.See,Antonescu had his share in contributing the holocaust but was by no means Hitler's puppet.Or Nazis regime.He crushed the nazi Romanian movement (also known as Iron Guard) in Jan 41,21-23 to be more specific.Obviously they had orders to pick up every Jew on the street but nobody was so keen to execute this order from Hitler,thus , to conclude , it happened , but on a way lower scale.Which , btw, is no excuse at all.Stories from Romanian Jews says that there was no difference between what was until 45 and after when Soviets retreated from Romania in 56.I will try to find some more links,but best source are still the archives which are opened now,more or less.I don't know if they have permision to be publishe on the net.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

F19_Ob
08-24-2004, 11:40 AM
interesting thread!

I dont know much about Hungarian or Romanian history(yet) but I'm very fond of the IAR 80-81 series and try to learn more about them.

I'm very glad we got a few unusual "european" planes in FB aswell.
p11
IAR 80-81 series
Brewster
j8 Gladiator
FiatCr42
FiatG50

He he ....If somone had told me 10 years ago that we would have a simulator featuring these and Russian planes, I would have told him it was impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

THNX Zayets, for the short description on the Romanian conditions.

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Tue August 24 2004 at 10:54 AM.]

Zayets
08-24-2004, 12:13 PM
Yes , situation was precare,to say the least.I still look for something not flawed about holocaust in Romania.I know that was a Iasi pogrom in 41 when many Jews were deported(on Antonescu direct order,actualy I have a quote of him replying to German Legation in Bucharest where he said he's not against deportation of the Jews and even he said that if necessary use machine guns against them.But this quote comes from a book Burning Ice,no other sources I have). Is worth to be mentioned that anti-semitism in Romania was on a large scale prior the WW2.Although no killings happened the Jews were excluded from several govt. organisations and not only.Also worth mentioning is that Romania had third largest Jewish population after USSR and Poland.But after 1940 when Carol 2nd lost control over the Iron Guard things turned otherwise than expected.Which was bad.Actually everything was bad at that time.
Destruction of the European Jews says:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The main reason used by Romanian officials when killing Jews was the belief that they would ally with the Soviet Union and become spies. Thus not only did communists have to be killed, but Jews as well. However, oppression and killing also took place for the same beliefs held by Hitler. Jews were seen as inferior creatures that polluted society, however the latter reason played a more minor role. In the Old Romania, in the territory without the lost provinces, Jews were hardly affected by the war. However, the story is quite different East of the Prut River. No country, with the exception of Germany, was involved in massacres of Jews on such a large scale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said previously , things happened , and this is no excuse.Not only against the Jews,but Gipsies and other people.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

SUPERAEREO
08-24-2004, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
I beg to differ.This was not our war,not even Hungary or Romania were happy to ally with Hitler.Same with Bulgaria.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zayets,

I was only making an attempt to summarize the situation shortly and quickly, and I am very happy to read your much more detailed point of view on the question. Of course at the time everybody in Europe perceived communism as a threat, my point was only that right-wing governments were more likely to use this as a justification to enter the war (especially after seeing what had happened to the Baltic Republics and Poland a few years earlier) and that of course Nazi Germany had more of an influence on other dictatorships than on democracies, which would have been as wary of Hitler as they were of Stalin.
I have to say that reading your posts is very interesting.

Multumesc and S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

Cippacometa
08-24-2004, 12:26 PM
Interesting & informative thread! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


______________________________

http://info.supereva.it/atsupport/AT/SMILE/61.gif

horseback
08-24-2004, 12:34 PM
Most of the smaller Axis allies were victims of their location. They were too close to Germany and/or Russia to defend themselves from either of them, and too far from the West for anyone there to pay attention. Once the fighting started, the Western Allies couldn't afford to differentiate between the smaller Axis countries and their masters.

I once had a Korean friend explain to me why they were somewhat protective of N. Korea (it was about the time the N. Koreans had revealed that they had nukes, and some jingoistic nitwits were suggesting that we go in there and ...uh, 'light them up'). He said "Imagine if you had a brother who was a duplitious thieving homocidal maniac...and that he was your Siamese (conjoined) twin." No matter how bad he is, no matter how much he deserves harsh treatment, whatever he gets, you get.

It seems to me that Hungary, Rumania, and the other 'minor' partners in the Axis were in a very similar situation. There was simply no safe or easy way out for them.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

kid_neuro
08-24-2004, 02:20 PM
Some notes about Hungary:

After the First World War 2/3 of Hungary was given to neighbouring countries like Yugoslavia, Rumania etc.
It caused a long lasting scar in Hungarian pride, which can even be felt today!
At the beginning of the Second World War there were two completely different views in the Hungarian government about the war.

1. Prime Minister Teleki tried to stay away from all kind of military action despite Hitler's demand to attack Yugoslavia with the germans, rumanians and the italians. He even tried to negotiate with the british to keep Hungary out of trouble in case the germans tries to attack the Balkans.
2. Regent Horthy on the other hand was very happy to support the german offensive for the price of some Yugoslavian terrain, which was cut from Hungary back in 1918.

By 3. april 1941 Prime Minister Teleki saw that the war is imminent and he can do nothing about it, Hungary was again on the wrong side. At that night he commited suicide, left a notice to Horthy though with the following words: "We're on the side of the rascals again... I was unable to hold you back. I am guilty."

After Horthy became the one and only ruler of the Huhngarian government he let the germans march through Hungary to Yugoslavia, and by that act the British and the French deeclared war on Hungary.

After the germans attacked the Soviet Union, unknown planes bombed Kassa, a Hungarian city. Some historians say that it was a german attack to provoke Hungary to declare war on Russia. So Hungary was in war with the soviets by the end of 1942...

Interestingly by the beginning of 1944 Horthy tried to jump out of the war, but the germans kept his son hostage, so he was unable to do it.

It's a sad story, which cost a lifes of millions on either side... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Zayets
08-24-2004, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kid_neuro:
Some notes about Hungary:

After the First World War 2/3 of Hungary was given to neighbouring countries like Yugoslavia, Rumania etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course,you mean 2/3 from Austro-Hungarian Empire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I almost forgot about the fact that Hitler took prisoner Horthy's son.Yep,true,one of the reasons why Hungary couldn't switch sides in '44.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

kid_neuro
08-24-2004, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kid_neuro:
Some notes about Hungary:

After the First World War 2/3 of Hungary was given to neighbouring countries like Yugoslavia, Rumania etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2/3 of the historic Hungary... but don't start a flame war over it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I really don't give damn about the Trianon treaty. We should forget the whole thing once and for all and try to live peacefully like good neighbours do.

http://magyar.org/uploaded/images/20030602-202345.jpg

Zayets
08-24-2004, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kid_neuro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kid_neuro:
Some notes about Hungary:

After the First World War 2/3 of Hungary was given to neighbouring countries like Yugoslavia, Rumania etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2/3 of the historic Hungary... but don't start a flame war over it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I really don't give damn about the Trianon treaty. We should forget the whole thing once and for all and try to live peacefully like good neighbours do.

http://magyar.org/uploaded/images/20030602-202345.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was not my intention.Besides,I was born in Transylvania and as usually happens my childhood was spent among Hungarian,German and Romanian children.I can also respond with a similar map,but this thing should not be debated here.
Viszontlátásra!

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Kurfurst__
08-24-2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red Allert:
Why did Hungary and Romania allied with Germans and enterred the war? Any links?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For Hungary, it was a simply question. The Trianon Treaty put huge territories away from the country, and millions of hungarian souls were now beyond the borders. Trianon was to an extent a result of the French leadership being worried about a potentially communist

There was an extremely strong feeling in the entire nation, from that on, strenghtened by the goverment itself, to take those territories back. And I mean extremely strong, you cannot imagine that with today`s thinking. Children started their day in school with prayer, which ended with: "...and I believe in the resurrection of Hungary." That tells a lot. If you want Hungary desribed in 2 thoughts, between 1920-1945, then these are revision of the Trianon Treaty and gaining back the lost territories, and secondly, strong anti-communist commitment.You see, that was an everyday thought in everyone, I could only compare it to the wish for revans in the French after 1870.. so this was the main politcal goal after 1918.

We, of course, needed supporters. Horthy, and both of his sons, were notoriously anti-German at the time. Another misconception of him, even here, pushed forward by Soviet historywriting, that he was some kind of dictator. Hardly true, he didn`t run things. Hungary had it`s own goverments, elected in more or less democratic way (which means the voting was open in the rural areas, and was aimed to push back any left-wing parties, largely due to the fear of another commie coup d`etat which had horrible results in 1918-19. Hungary). It was more like he reserved the means for himself to step up against a possible communist takeover attempt, and he stepped up just as well as extreme-right wing parties, the Nyilaskeresztes (Arrowcross) party and it`s leader Szalasi Ferenc, who spent some time in prison when he got too far (basically the arrowcross guys were poor imitations of Hitler and the German Nazi party, with marginal support in the population). Political terror was completely unknown, only the communists were banned from political role, socialdemocratic parties were operating legally, even though indirectly the conservative right wing goverment tried to limit their influence, with burocratic means.
In the meantime, as early from 1920, a secret, limited armament program was under way, to at least keep some kind of effective armed forces, banned at Versailles. First the political leadership tried to negotiate Italy in the late 20s/early 30s, which had big ambitions of local influence in the region, expect some politcal support and the ability to buy more or less advanced italian arms, and planes- Fiat Cr32, 42s and bombers - not much of a result with them otherwise. It should be noted, however, that Horthy and his nearby man didn`t like the Nazis too much. Towards, Hitler, he was very much like as the old officers in the Wehrmacht, as he was a high ranking , and rather successful Naval officier (admiral in fact, and the last C-in-C) in the Austro-Hungarian Navy. For him, Hitler was just a corporal. In fact, most of them, coming from old noble families, would much more inclined towards to have good relations with the English. But then, after the rise of Germany, after the Germans persued successfully their own revision politics, it was evidedent that they are the only ones that have the politcal influence neccesary, Romania being their ally, and they are strong enough to counter the Soviet Union. And things in politcs were going good from the Hungarian pov. Czechoslovakia, which was one of the 3 'small-entente' country that was to keep Hungary at bay after WW1, was occupied by Germany, and Hungarian troops successfully annected parts where Hungarian minorities lived (as per the 1st Vienna Treaty, in 1938, with 12000 km2, 870 000 population reunited). Yugoslavia was neutral to Hungary. So, Horthy felt, it was time to take back Erdély, or Transylvania, with the force of arms from Rumania. For Hitler, it was inconvient to have a war in the region between Hugnary and Rumania, that would endanger Rumanian oil supplies to Germany. Hence it was brought before the negotiating table at Vienna (2nd Vienna treaty) under the supervision, and pressure from Germany and Italy.

The result was much of a compromissum, that didn`t please either parties, but IMHO was more or less fair: new borders were drawn along the - rather mixed - ethnic borders, Northern Transylvania, with 43 500 km2, 2.2million population, out of which 1.1million was Rumanian and 60k Ethnic Germann, was reunited with the Hungarian Kingdom in August 1940. Rumanians were hard pressed at the time by Soviet annexions of their parts, at that time, and had not much of a choice but to accept the situation. Yet both countries maintained the goal in secrecy to get hold of the entire Transylvanian region at the soonest opportunity. I will not go into details about the Yugoslavian campaign, which was from that on, fueled by the fear that Germany might change it`s mind and that we need to get the Germans goodwill. It was the time when Hungary took side, along with the political reality of the time, in 1941. The Germans were at their peak, AND a neighbouring country, the British had absolutely no influence at all, no chance to intervene, the Soviet Union was a common threat to the whole of Eastern Europe, Rumania the Enemy.

The entry into the war against the USSR. First the leadership didn`t want it. But then, they started to ask: the Rumanians entered the war and fight along Hitler - they will get their reward for this, why don`t we join? Slovakia did just as well. Plus, there was the strong anti communist feelings, and not to forget: the USSR was REAL threat, see what happened to Rumania, what happened to Finnland (Finns are the closest relatives of Hungarians in Europe, there were a number of Hungarian volunteers in that war aiding the Finns), what happened to all the baltic states, what happened to Poland. We could be next. Germany, liked or not liked, is the only power on the continent who can stop the Russians, they did that in WW1 already. Pretty much the same situation as after WW2: just 10 years after it`s defeat in the war, the Allies were urging the Germans to arm faster. They needed them against the USSR. As one said, after WW2 the French were no longer worried if the German army was maybe too strong; they worried that it may not be strong enough. So, basically, the country was in a sandwhich of two great powers, with Rumania ready to jump. The Germans didn`t really asked for to join, though.The final push was the bombing of Kassa, and air attacks on other cities and trains in NE Hungary, close to the Russian border. Most likely it was done by Soviet planes, description of aircraft (most likely I-16 Ratas, strafing Hungarian trains), the type of the dropped bombs points to it was 99% Soviet Air Force job; probably they misnavigated themselves, and attacked Hungarian targets instead of close-by Slovakian targets (slovakia was already at war). The war was quickly decleared, and a smaller motorized unit, the Gyorshadtest or Fast Corps, was despatched, more of a gesture than actual military aid.
Beginning with 1942, the German command felt that it could use more allied troops, to secure the rear, and guard less important frontlines, and to free up german troops. Keitel? was asking for more, and he got it, in the form of the 2nd Hungarian Army, some 200 000 men. Very typical for the time, the 2nd Army was largely made up by reservists, not by the standing army, for two reasons : first, Horthy wanted some reserves to stay at home, to have something at hand if the communist try to seize power again (even as there was no real threat of this, but the collapse after `18, and the lack of armed forces to defend the country against Czech, Slovak, Yogoslav and Rumanian attack was the greatest mistake in 1918-19). Second, he wanted to preserve the better troops for after the war with the USSR is over. There were still scores to settle with Rumania... both sides knew this. So the 2nd Army went out, receiving heavy equipment, older German tanks, and the newest 109F fighters from Germany. The equipment was, not up par with the Soviets, though. Initially they had some success in the summer 1942 campaign, and took defense positions along the river Don. In January/February 1942, they suffered a terrible defeat during the Soviet counterattack at Stalingrad, which extreme left flank they protected, after the Rumanian, then Italian troops suffered similiar defeats: the Soviets aimed for the weaker flanks, protected by worser satellite troops.
From that on, the country entered a real war, more troops were sent out. By 1944, the Soviets were closing the borders, and Horthy tried to step out of the war. The attempt failed, with some minor clash between Hungarian and German troops; a more German friendly goverment was put in charge, German troops entering the country, occupying it. In August 1944, Rumania successfully changed sides, when the Red Army approached their borders. The valiant defense by Hungarian troops in the Transylvanian and Karpathian mountains allowed to hold the lines for some time, but the Soviets quickly entered the large plais of Hungary in the east by the Automn. Horthy tried a second attempt, but it was a failure from the start, German intellingence discovered all the details, and had a plan ready. Immidiately at Horthy`s proclamation in the radio of Hungary stepping out of the war - he was arguing that no country should sacrefice itself on his ally`s altar -, Skorzeny kidnapped his last remaining son (the older one died in an aircraft crash in a Re 2000 at the Don front) a daring commando action. And the next morning, my grandmother waked up to the sound of 70ton Konigstigers marching up towards the Royal Palace, along with Skorzeny`s commandos, lightly defended by the Royal Hungarian Bodyguards and some cadets. There was little fight, the defenders having no real chance, with some 10 Hungarian dead and about the double of that for the Skorzeny`s SS. Had it not gone that lighlty, the 600mm Morser Thor super-mortar was waiting at a nearby RR station, to lay a systemtic siege to the medieval Castle hill. Horthy and his family was taken away, with Szalasi, and his puppet-nazis taking control of the country, putting up a fight to the death style fight just as Hitler did in Germany. The Konigstigers, from the 503. heavy tank battalian, packed up and clashed with Soviet armor a few days later in the gigantic tank battle in the eastern plains at Debrecen. Hungarian troops had little to choose from, they kept defending the country against the Soviet and now also Rumanian invasion, naturally, on the ground and in the air, supplied with equipment from both Germany and own production. It was a bit strange, though. The Germans were not considered enemies even at that time, but as comrades in the fight against bolshevism.After all, the enemy was common, and the high command officers were often German-friendly, quite understanbly with their admiration of German military skill and the Austro-Hungarian heritage. A small, irrevelant resistance existed, mostly Soviet/communist related. The numbers of 'resistance fighters' skyrocketed after 1945, though. Suddenly everyone was a partisan. When the whole country was overrun, by April 1945, they retreated into Austria and surrendered to Anglo-American troops. Curiously, after 1945, most of these officers were taken in the soviet-style 'people`s army'. They were used to train the new cadres, then some were executed, most were sent into prison and concentration camps in the late `40s in communist conception trials, only to be freed after a more 'forgiving' communist leadership emerged. But that`s already post-45 hungarian history.

Hope this cleared up the issue a bit.

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We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

Friendly_flyer
08-24-2004, 04:14 PM
I learn something in this forum every day. Thakns Kurfyrst!

Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman
Norway

Atomic_Marten
08-24-2004, 05:21 PM
I found this question to be rather hmmm.. yes. Whatever. But when u ask this kind of question, you are probably not from Europe. Quick analysis: in late '30's all European countrys realized that it is better not to have nazi Germany as their enemy (these standings were realised by majority of Euro governments, as most sane ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but not the people of these countries -- well there's always exceptions). Many of European nations (except major ones like France) are more or less willingly enter the axis-satelite-status countries (again wish of their governments, not the ppl in most cases, in spite of propaganda-made films http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif). That ones that opposed nazi Germany regime did not last for long when war began. All around Europe defeatism is enraging (France England...), making all countries vulnerable to axis demands and seriously obstructing their war potential that way.

Also, to make things a little bit clearer; I'll ask u another question (close linked to your): what is your oppinion, why the whole eastern Europe 'willingly' enter the Varszaw Pact (and therefore declare them as communist countries or become close supporters of the Soviet regime -- Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, DDR...)? Reason is the same: in east Europe late '40's you did not want to have Soviets against you.... there's always someone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

BTW I read somewhere on this forum that poilitics are not allowed (I suppose that also goes for political views of certain more or less dark times of humanity http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

Fly loop http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Red Allert
08-25-2004, 12:47 AM
I'm sorry if my question was a little unpolite or something. I didn't mean to say that someone is quilty or to insult anyone. So I'm sorry if I did. I just believed that the scars of WW2 have been already healed. I just wanted know history a little bettre.

I'm self living in Finland, so I think, I now understand that Hungary and Romania had same kind of situation like in Finland.

My grandparents are from Karelia. They and many Finns wanted Karelia back after WW2. So I think I know how hard Hungarians wanted back the lost territories in Hungary.

But big thanks to everyone for the info.

Oh, and Kurfurst nice pick from Nightwish.

Jasko76
08-25-2004, 01:07 AM
Atomic_Marten

Yugoslavia was never a memeber of the Warszaw Pact, nor was it closely tied to USSR, in fact Tito severed all ties with Stalin in 1950 which almost cost him his life and war between the two countries was but hours away at one point. It took another 10 years and Stalin's death before there were any connections again.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.yumodel.co.yu/history_of_yugoslav_aviation/slike/bf109g6.jpg

I rulez - You not!

WTE_Ibis
08-25-2004, 02:56 AM
Thank you to all who contributed,very interesting
to those of us who don't live in Europe. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Ibissix-schmile.JPG
http://premium.uploadit.org/Ibissix/MAKE-MY-DAY.jpg
Join us or oppose us, either way "MAKE MY DAY"

GerritJ9
08-25-2004, 03:12 AM
The peace traety of Versailles is now widely regarded as a fatally flawed document (to say the least), but the treaties of Sevres (peace treaty with Austria) and Trianon (Hungary) are almost forgotten. Sevres was so harsh that eventually the Allies realized that it went too far and it was replaced by the treaty of St. Germain. So much for Wilson's 14 points- the ghosts of Clemenceau, Wilson, Lloyd George and Orlando have much to answer for............

Atomic_Marten
08-25-2004, 01:27 PM
Red Allert no problem if your words are pointing at my post. There is always people that are not willing to see, no matter how clear things can be. You obviously are not in this category http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif.

Jasko76 thx for correction. Yugoslavia never joined Warszav Pact. I should have to type Albania instead. My bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif 1xfor mehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif. BTW Jasko, chck "Off topic thread"... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Fly nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Ankanor
08-25-2004, 05:13 PM
I could add perhaps something about Bulgaria...

The situation in Bulgaria before the start of WW2: strong bonds with Germany. An Illegal Communistic party since 1923, they tried to assasinate the king and the Government in a church in 1925. After 3 wars for unification, the last - WW1, side by side with Germany, Bulgaria shared the fate of the other German Allies-weakened, torn apart, defenseless. The King, Boris III (his son is now Prime minister of Bulgaria http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif) had served on the Front in all the 3 wars and made it a personal goal that no Bulgarian soldiers ever go to war. But when German troops came to Bulgarian borders, Bulgaria became a German ally. The government viewed it the better alternative to war. But Bulgaria did not declare war on any countries. At the beginning. Hitler apparently did not like to have an ally in the flank who does not want to fight, so he frequently demanded Bulgarian troops at the Eastern front. He did not achieve that, but our government, despite the opposition of the King declared war on the Western Allies in late December 1941. The war was labeled "Symbolic". But the Allies saw nothing symbolic in that and so Bulgaria went in war with almost the whole world. Inside the country there were a lot of Communist guerillas who started sabotages after the Invasion in Russia. But during the whole war, Bulgaria kept normal diplomatic relationships with USSR. In 1943, as operation "Point Blank" was started, Allied Bombers and their Escorts attacked the capital city of Sofia. The fighter regiment of the Air Force fought the attackers, sometimes outnumbered 1:20. But on 6.9 1944 The Soviet Union stepped crossed the borders, declaring a war on Bulgaria. Why? Because in that way they were helping the Guerillas seize the Government. The prime minister tried in vain to stop it, declaring a war on Gemany and her Alles. The result? For one day, Bulgaria was in war with the whole world http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Then, on 9.9 1944, The Communists made a take-over. And that is how we ended Soviet Ally, for 45 years.

On a sidenote, Bulgaria is the only country, whose Jewish population was not sent to concentration camps. the whole country stood up to save them. It's not a big thing, but makes me proud.

There is a joke: why the USAAF did not attack Bulgaria earlier?
We were under the ash-tray on the map in the Allied HQ and they could not find us earlier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

BerkshireHunt
08-25-2004, 06:04 PM
As others have said, a very interesting thread.
A few comments:

Romania and Hungary both had their reasons for siding with Germany against the Soviets but it is important to note that they were somewhat unusual amongst eastern european nations in that their governments were allowed to pursue that line of diplomacy by Hitler. No such course was allowed for more overtly 'slavic' nations, such as Poland and the Czech part of Czechoslovakia (Bohemia/Moravia as it was then known). Hitler had long since decided that they were to be included in Germany's 'Lebensraum', come what may. Never forget that the entire foundation of the German state at that time was built upon 'racial awareness' and social Darwinism. The Nazis had passed race laws to enshrine anti- semitism as German state policy- and second only to jews were slavs, in Nazi race- hatred. So Poland and the Czech areas of Czechoslowakia had no chance whatsoever of reaching some kind of entente with Hitler. He had always planned their utter destruction (along with slavonic Russia).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The peace traety of Versailles is now widely regarded as a fatally flawed document (to say the least), but the treaties of Sevres (peace treaty with Austria) and Trianon (Hungary) are almost forgotten. Sevres was so harsh that eventually the Allies realized that it went too far and it was replaced by the treaty of St. Germain. So much for Wilson's 14 points- the ghosts of Clemenceau, Wilson, Lloyd George and Orlando have much to answer for............<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flawed it undoubtedly was but this is often used as a 'justification' for the rise of Hitler and his subsequent actions. Before feeling too sympathetic for the German position one should remember that had Germany emerged victorious from the First World War it would have imposed far more draconian sanctions against the conquered French, Dutch and Belgians than anything agreed at Versaille by the Allies. They would in fact have become virtual 'slave' states of Germany...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
Yes , situation was precare,to say the least.I still look for something not flawed about holocaust in Romania.I know that was a Iasi pogrom in 41 when many Jews were deported(on Antonescu direct order,actualy I have a quote of him replying to German Legation in Bucharest where he said he's not against deportation of the Jews and even he said that if necessary use machine guns against them.But this quote comes from a book Burning Ice,no other sources I have). Is worth to be mentioned that anti-semitism in Romania was on a large scale prior the WW2.Although no killings happened the Jews were excluded from several govt. organisations and not only.Also worth mentioning is that Romania had third largest Jewish population after USSR and Poland.But after 1940 when Carol 2nd lost control over the Iron Guard things turned otherwise than expected.Which was bad.Actually everything was bad at that time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I made a post about a year ago to the effect that anti- semitism was rife in eastern and central europe during the war years, Huckebein (a Romanian), accused me of getting my facts from 'Discovery Channel'(!). It's nice to have my facts confirmed by a rather more honest and dispassionate Romanian (Zayets).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst:
The Germans were not considered enemies (in Hungary) even at that time, but as comrades in the fight against bolshevism.After all, the enemy was common, and the high command officers were often German-friendly, quite understanbly with their admiration of German military skill and the Austro-Hungarian heritage. A small, irrevelant resistance existed, mostly Soviet/communist related.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post, Kurfurst.
Two things- admittedly somewhat provocative: how could the High Command of the Hungarian armed forces still admire German military skill after the disastrous military reversals of 43/44? The fact that they were now fighting alongside German soldiers to avoid the Russian occupation of Hungary- on Hungarian soil- should have been evidence enough of German military incompetence.

Secondly, you say the Germans were regarded as comrades in Hungary- not as enemies- even in 1944. One has to ask: did the Hungarian High Command not know that 250,000 Hungarians had been deported from the country (in 1944 alone) to die in Auschwitz and similar extermination camps? Did they not care, perhaps?
A handful of Gestapo operatives worked with Adolf Eichmann in Budapest to round up Hungarian jews in 1944 as part of the Final Solution. Eichmann walked the streets of Budapest openly, so safe from assasination did he feel. I believe he lived there for several months.
It's clear that 500 Gestapo men could not have arranged the deportation of 250,000 people without assistance- there must have widespread collusion at official Hungarian government and police levels. Think of the trucks and trains required... Access to census information...
I don't mean to be provocative- I just find it odd that the Germans were so equitably received, even in 1944, when it must have been very obvious what they were doing. 250,000 people don't just disappear into the night without anyone knowing what happened.
Perhaps Horthy was not so benign and blameless as you suggest?

strelnik_Sipi
08-26-2004, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
even as there was no real threat of this, but the collapse after `18, and the lack of armed forces to defend the country against Czech, Slovak, Yogoslav and Rumanian attack was the greatest mistake in 1918-19<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

U got to be kiding me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Dont u know that Hungary attacked Czechoslovakia in 1918, only swift reaction from CS forces and Alied protests stoped that war, and Slovakia in 1938 where again Slovak forces stoped the advance and Hitler had to call both back before the escalation of the war.
Thats hardly the act of a country with lack of armed forces.

GerritJ9
08-26-2004, 05:16 AM
The Netherlands was neutral in the Great War, so Germany could not have imposed harsh peace conditions on us.
To put Hungary's territorial loss in a U.S. perspective, imagine the U.S. losing California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas to Mexico; Florida to Cuba; Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Wyoming, Montana, Michigan and Maine to Canada. And all of this without any regard to the wishes of the citizens of those states. Would the U.S. be happy about this? Hardly.
And despite being neutral, the Netherlands almost lost territory to Belgium, who demanded parts of Dutch Limburg at Versailles when the Big Four were carving up Europe.

BerkshireHunt
08-26-2004, 05:30 AM
You're right- I was thinking of the Dutch speaking Flemings of Flanders/N Belgium- my mistake.

Zayets
08-26-2004, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GerritJ9:
The Netherlands was neutral in the Great War, so Germany could not have imposed harsh peace conditions on us.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How's this affirmation makes sense?Since when Germany won the Great War to impose ANY conditions let alone to Netherlands (where BTW German Emperor settled and died after the Great War)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
To put Hungary's territorial loss in a U.S. perspective, imagine the U.S. losing California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas to Mexico; Florida to Cuba; Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Wyoming, Montana, Michigan and Maine to Canada. And all of this without any regard to the wishes of the citizens of those states. Would the U.S. be happy about this? Hardly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Couldn't help but smile.Here you go http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And despite being neutral, the Netherlands almost lost territory to Belgium, who demanded parts of Dutch Limburg at Versailles when the Big Four were carving up Europe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Belgium which we know today gained independency from Netherlands in 1830.Same surface plus a bit from what is in Germany nowaday.For those who don't know what this treaty is , is the treaty between Germany and League of nations , well , if you want , the winners.
Have fun and study the treaty here (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/text/versaillestreaty/vercontents.html)
PS: my mistake , I see only now that you said "almost lost" instead of lost. My appologies.I will delete the first sentence.
Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

joeap
08-26-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
I could add perhaps something about Bulgaria...

The situation in Bulgaria before the start of WW2: strong bonds with Germany. An Illegal Communistic party since 1923, they tried to assasinate the king and the Government in a church in 1925. After 3 wars for unification, the last - WW1, side by side with Germany, Bulgaria shared the fate of the other German Allies-weakened, torn apart, defenseless. The King, Boris III (his son is now Prime minister of Bulgaria http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif) had served on the Front in all the 3 wars and made it a personal goal that no Bulgarian soldiers ever go to war. But when German troops came to Bulgarian borders, Bulgaria became a German ally. The government viewed it the better alternative to war. But Bulgaria did not declare war on any countries. At the beginning. Hitler apparently did not like to have an ally in the flank who does not want to fight, so he frequently demanded Bulgarian troops at the Eastern front. He did not achieve that, but our government, despite the opposition of the King declared war on the Western Allies in late December 1941. The war was labeled "Symbolic". But the Allies saw nothing symbolic in that and so Bulgaria went in war with almost the whole world. Inside the country there were a lot of Communist guerillas who started sabotages after the Invasion in Russia. But during the whole war, Bulgaria kept normal diplomatic relationships with USSR. In 1943, as operation "Point Blank" was started, Allied Bombers and their Escorts attacked the capital city of Sofia. The fighter regiment of the Air Force fought the attackers, sometimes outnumbered 1:20. But on 6.9 1944 The Soviet Union stepped crossed the borders, declaring a war on Bulgaria. Why? Because in that way they were helping the Guerillas seize the Government. The prime minister tried in vain to stop it, declaring a war on Gemany and her Alles. The result? For one day, Bulgaria was in war with the whole world http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Then, on 9.9 1944, The Communists made a take-over. And that is how we ended Soviet Ally, for 45 years.

On a sidenote, Bulgaria is the only country, whose Jewish population was not sent to concentration camps. the whole country stood up to save them. It's not a big thing, but makes me proud.

There is a joke: why the USAAF did not attack Bulgaria earlier?
We were under the ash-tray on the map in the Allied HQ and they could not find us earlier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I think you're forgettng something, didn't Bulgaria send troops to occupy parts of Greece and Serbia? I alos have read wher jews in the Bulgarian occupied part of Greece were deported, it was only jews in Bulgaria itself that were safe. (Good thing).

Ankanor
08-26-2004, 09:57 AM
True, Bulgaria sent troops (the occupational corps) to parts of Serbia and Greece. Parts that were populated by Bulgarians and were given to Serbia and Greece after the WW1. After the peace treaties Bulgaria bordered itself, that is, Every country except Turkey received patrts from Bulgaria, with the population being "colonized"in the darkest meaning. that is why the end of the WW1 is called in Bulgaria "Second National Disaster". About the Jewish population in the occupied terriotries, it's true, very sad thing, it was basicly "that are parts with bulgarians, but they are not a part of your territory. you have no right to demand that the jewish population is left"


Now, please, let's not start the flaming http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifIt is past tense. past imperfect unreturning, to be more precise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

[This message was edited by Ankanor on Thu August 26 2004 at 09:09 AM.]

joeap
08-26-2004, 10:19 AM
Ankanor, I'm not flaming just clarifying, btw I am of Greek background (Canadian) and like Bulgarians have many friends and all. I alos study history and like all the sides to be told, truth is all Balkan countries have dark points of their past. Agree leave it in the past, but we can remember it and discuss it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-26-2004, 03:42 PM
Like you say joeap --all Balkan countries have dark points of their past--. But without any other thoughts, I really can came up with single ONE nation in history or country today (maybe Tibet?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif) that does not have dark points in their past.

It is simply human nature. We can't resist when we have an opportunity, resources, and lot of empty-headed followers.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Wannabe-Pilot
08-27-2004, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kid_neuro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kid_neuro:
Some notes about Hungary:

After the First World War 2/3 of Hungary was given to neighbouring countries like Yugoslavia, Rumania etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2/3 of the historic Hungary... but don't start a flame war over it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I really don't give damn about the Trianon treaty. We should forget the whole thing once and for all and try to live peacefully like good neighbours do.

http://magyar.org/uploaded/images/20030602-202345.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2/3 of Medieval Hungary, that is, Hungary as it extended during the 12th-15th century. Medieval states and modern (nation) states are two very different things. The first one extentends as far as a king rules, the latter is a more complex institution.

My point is (and being Croatian and a history buff I should know) most of the territory 'lost' was not truly Hungarian - it was populated by differnet ethnic groups (mostly Slavic) that spoke different languages than Hungarian and had long standing and varied histories - and a lot of it revolved around fighting Hungarian ambitions to annex them. It was Hungarian only in the sense that the Hungarian government (note thet I say government or better yet noblemen that used to run it in the 19th century, not Hungarians as a nation who I actually like) wanted it and claimed it yet was never fully able to annex it. In fact, most of the 19th century in Croatia was spent fighting of such pretensions (fighting in the political sense, though it did escalate into a full blown war at one point). Simply put, Croatia (and other Slavic nations) wanted more autonomy within the Hapsburg empire, and the dynasty as well as the Hungarian nobility wouldn't hear of it.

This all sounds like nationalistic BS doesn't it? You must think I'm a real jacka$$ to post this? Well, I'm not. You of course are free to believe anything you want about me, just remember you don't know me and are in no position to judge me. You have to understand that I bear no ill will towards anybody. I don't resent the Hungarians anything that happened so long ago. After all, 19th century was a time of nation states, of great ideas about homogenous nations, and imperialistic ambitions by virtually every country in the world. Look at England and its colonies, Bismarck and the Second Reich, French and their wounded national pride after having lost Alsace and Lorraine, the US and the war with Spain, which the Us provoked in order to gain overseas territories... In many cases, consequences of such thinking led to unrealistic ambitions and eventually to WW1 and WW2.

Such unrealistic ambition is evident in post WWI Hungary when dreams of lost territories had to meet the reality that people populating them wanted their own states. After having lived for centuries in a Austrain and later Hungarian dominated empire, people simply wanted more freedom then the enjoyed sofar. They wanted a country that they could call their own, not yet another foriegn overlord.

So when you speak of the scar that the Trianon pact left in Hungary, it has to be mentioned that it was not such a deep one, it's just that the Hungarians of the time thought so. Most of the territory lost was not supposed to even be a part of Hungary. Some parts of it should have been included in the new state, true, but only parts. The way you guys write about it, you make it sound like it was the worst division of a country by foreign (victoriuos) powers since the division of Poland back in the 18th century.

While it is true that parts of the lost territories were infact populated by large communities of ethnic Hungarians, those parts were rather small, so small that they are even hard to distinguish on the map you posted (speaking about Croatia here, I'm not familiar with other cases)- Medjimurje and Baranja that are part of Croatia today, and make up perhaps 5% of its territory (and Croatia ain't that big to begin with).

Don't flame out over this I'm merely pointing out that the territorial losses were not in fact so dramatic as you make them. The US analogy somebody posted is very flawed.

Kurfurst__
08-27-2004, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wannabe-Pilot:
So when you speak of the scar that the Trianon pact left in Hungary, it has to be mentioned that it was not such a deep one, it's just that the Hungarians of the time thought so. Most of the territory lost was not supposed to even be a part of Hungary. Some parts of it should have been included in the new state, true, but only parts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully disagree about that 'isn`t being a deep one'. It WAS and IS a deep one, thanks to some of the worst sh*theads this country had as leader during all it history, at the worst possible moment. It hadn`t gone this way if we have something of a caliber like Kemal Atatürk.

And as for stating only some parts - agree. Only the ones that aren and always were, populated by hungarians, and that means several million souls beyond the borders, and several ten thousend square kilometers. But you speak of that like it was a silly little debate on two border villages, which is rahter blood boiling, especially I know what is the current attitude to those people in their 'new' countries.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
While it is true that parts of the lost territories were infact populated by large communities of ethnic Hungarians, those parts were rather small, so small that they are even hard to distinguish on the map you posted (speaking about Croatia here, I'm not familiar with other cases)- Medjimurje and Baranja that are part of Croatia today, and make up perhaps 5% of its territory (and Croatia ain't that big to begin with).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of croatia should be the keyword. It is not even to a small extent true for any of the other examples.

Croatia, it`s a rather special case because it was added to the Hungarian Kingdom later on (and not completely against the will of croatians at that time I must add), unlike all the other territories, which were integral part of the Hungarian Kingdom from the very beginning of the existence of this country. I doubt anyone had, after 1920, to 'regain' Croatia at all in the same manner as they wanted to get back the other territories, simply because everyone knew this. (To that I would add that in the modern times, when Croatians struggled for their independecne from serb-run Yugoslavia, I am very sure that the vast majority of population here greatly symphatized with that cause and was happy with the outcome.)
Croatia was always a semi-indenpendent province after the 12-13th century, with it`s own ruler, with it`s own people, own laws, own parliement, own nobility, the connection point being the person of the ruler, ie. the Hungarian king (who happened to be a Habsburg ever since the 16th century). I can only compare the political status of Croatia to that of Scotland in the Kingdom of England, or say, Ukraine at a time, being a province of Poland with a wide authonomy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Don't flame out over this I'm merely pointing out that the territorial losses were not in fact so dramatic as you make them. The US analogy somebody posted is very flawed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It`s not. After Trianon, the Hungarian borders contained 7.61 million souls, almost all (88.4%) of being Hungarians, plus 7.3% being ethnic Germans, who never really considered themselves other as Hungarians apart from their historical origin, and some of their customs and keeping German as a secondary language more or less.

The the two largest cases of the two who received the following territories :
(ethnic numbers based on 1910)

Romania :
103 093 km2, with 5.25 million souls, of which 53.8% were Rumanian, 31.6% Hungarian, 10.7% ethnic German

Czehcslovakia : 61 633 km2, with 3.51 million souls, of which 48.2 were slovakian, 30.3% hungarian, 7.4% German, 12.3% ukrainian.

As you can see, there were ca. 1.6 million Hungarians living in Transylvania trasited to Rumania, a further 1 million in (Czech)Slovakia, and another 500 000 to Yogoslavia (not to parts formed by croatia as you noted though).. And I wouldn`t be much off if I would add German ethnics to this, considering they were always related to Hungary, and not the other countries, called in as settlers by Hungarian kings etc.

So, condsidering the post-trianon Hungary had ca. 7 million Hungarians, wouldn`t you think that suddly having more than 3 million Hungarians beyond the borders was more than a bit of felt outragous 'just at the time so' ?!!!

Of course it`s understandable why the new born countries are depressed by this. If the borders would be drawn along the ethnic lines, Rumania would loose about 1/3 of Erdely/Transylvania, and they would rather see the end of the world sooner than that happening.
For Slovakia, it`s even worser, suddenly some 1/3 of their total country, including their capitol Pozsony (tradiatonal holding place of the parliement in medieval Hungary...), would go the way of the dodo. And that`s not some version of borders that some of the national extremist would dream on, it`s the way it would be if the borders are drawn STRICTLY to the ethnic borders, making everyone live in his own country where it forms the majority of population.

So it`s quite understandable, why the most harsh threatening, and constant of ethnic Hungarians happen in those countries.

As final note, I`d like to add that I am most hopeful that the solution for the situation is to be found in the EU, and the loss of signicance of borders. The EU is well known for being very strict about the treating of ethnic groups, and their rights for own education, use of their own language, and I think it will certainly strongly enforce these principles upon those who do not wish to employ them on their own will, making the few well-known extremists and troublemakers a persona non grata in their own country`s political life.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg

We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

Kurfurst__
08-27-2004, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by strelnik_Sipi:
U got to be kiding me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Dont u know that Hungary attacked Czechoslovakia in 1918, only swift reaction from CS forces and Alied protests stoped that war, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don`t know that version of history. I doubt anybody out there knows it, either. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and Slovakia in 1938 where again Slovak forces stoped the advance and Hitler had to call both back before the escalation of the war.
Thats hardly the act of a country with lack of armed forces.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right in about by 1938 Hungary was no longer a defenceless country, thanks to the re-armaments programme starting in the 1930s. I am very ignorant about slovakian deeds in stopping Hungarian troops advancing towards the old borders, to my knowladge there was hardly much of fighting at all, except in the air, where in a minor air battle the RHAF prevailed.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg

We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

Zayets
08-27-2004, 07:19 AM
Guys,c'mon , is not the place to debate this thing here.Kurfurst is right in his last statement.If you look at the trend this tend to happen,no real border between countries , but merely an ethnic border , a community one,of course not in the sense of that's my side of the pond,I'm speaking cultural , historical.

I have read the Trianon ,Sevres and Versailles treaties many times , and I believe most of the things related to it.As you know in November 1918 , Hungary declared independence , followed in cascade by almost every province/country part of habsburg empire.Is also true that the independence of these countries was by no mean recognized at international level , LoN was still busy with writing Versailles treaty.Fact is that by declaring independency , Hungary caught Lon with pants down.They obviously prepared a treaty for Germany and rest of the world and Austro-Hungary and rest of the world,or now , they were forced to do a TOTAL REWRITE of the treaty text and made one for Austria and one for Hungary. What is also interesting in the text of Trianon treaty is that the treaty TOTALY FORBIDS union of Hungary with ANY adjacent state/teritory/province,but my guess is that this happened beacause the remnants of Habsburg tried to rejoin Austria and Hungary.I have read notes of Romanian detachee at that time regarding Trianon treaty.They didn;t even knew what was in the treaty and if you take a look at historical events the declaration of union of Great National Assembly of Transilvania in 1918 was validated only ONE year later by the Romanian king and still not recognized at international level.Is for that I'm saying that declaring independency pi$$ed of LoN.If you look at the treaty , part between Romania and Hungary is not even a page. Almost same for the other countries.
On a side point here for Wannabe Pilot , I don't know about Croatia but I can tell you that Hungary and Transylvania were traditionally independent.Heck , they even changed kings between themselves.By 1711 , Austria gained total control over Hungary and Transylvania.Starting with this point , Transylvania's independency started to erode.Even the declaration of independence of Transylvania in 1765 was just a formality.In 1848 , Hungary declares union with Transylvania.This thing didn't liked too much to Austria.Hungary , by proclaiming union with Transylvania promised slavery abolition in this country.Romanian and Germans from Transylvania refuse the deal and they join Austria.In 1849,Lajos Kossuth republic is defeated by Austrians.Starting with 1849 and up to 1860 things were not nice for Hungary.However, in 1867 Austro-Hungary arbitrates a compromise by acknowledging union between Hungary and Transylvania.I repeat , I don't know how things were with the other provinces/countries from Austro-Hungarian Empire at that time.Thus was settled.Transylvania goes under Austro-Hungarian protectorate , while the other two Romanian provinces under Russian protectorate. And everybody thought it will follow long years of peace.
Well,that was proven wrong once again in 1914 .Is a WHOLE story these 3 treaties and is for that I say they cannot be discussed here but I'm very happy that we can have a VERY civilized discussion.Hat's off for you guys.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Zayets
08-27-2004, 07:37 AM
We are off subject here regarding the initial post , I find it much more interesting how things were in pre and WW2 years and I just finished to read a document "USSR and German problem 1941-1949" and here are extracts from archives of foreign policy of Russian Federation (this is adocument prepared by Foreign Ministry of Russia,is a writing which appeared in Moskow and Postdam in 1996 or 1997)
I can translate some of it if somebody wants , this is only the begining:
"Russian wishes,as defined by Stalin and taking in account foreign policy that he promoted in 1939 and declared during the visit of British foreign affairs minstry Eden in Moskow 1941 December : ensuring the influence of USSR in the neighbouring countries at the wetern border,compensation of war damages and weakening DURING A MAXIMUM PERIOD of time of the German military potential through division of Germany in small countries".

If you want more , I can translate it.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Wannabe-Pilot
08-27-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:


And as for stating only some parts - agree. Only the ones that aren and always were, populated by hungarians, and that means several million souls beyond the borders, and several ten thousend square kilometers. But you speak of that like it was a silly little debate on two border villages, which is rahter blood boiling, especially I know what is the current attitude to those people in their 'new' countries.

--------------------------------------------

Croatia, it`s a rather special case because it was added to the Hungarian Kingdom later on (and not completely against the will of croatians at that time I must add), unlike all the other territories, which were integral part of the Hungarian Kingdom from the very beginning of the existence of this country. I doubt anyone had, after 1920, to 'regain' Croatia at all in the same manner as they wanted to get back the other territories, simply because everyone knew this. (To that I would add that in the modern times, when Croatians struggled for their independecne from serb-run Yugoslavia, I am very sure that the vast majority of population here greatly symphatized with that cause and was happy with the outcome.)
Croatia was always a semi-indenpendent province after the 12-13th century, with it`s own ruler, with it`s own people, own laws, own parliement, own nobility, the connection point being the person of the ruler, ie. the Hungarian king (who happened to be a Habsburg ever since the 16th century). I can only compare the political status of Croatia to that of Scotland in the Kingdom of England, or say, Ukraine at a time, being a province of Poland with a wide authonomy.

--------------------------------------

As final note, I`d like to add that I am most hopeful that the solution for the situation is to be found in the EU, and the loss of signicance of borders. The EU is well known for being very strict about the treating of ethnic groups, and their rights for own education, use of their own language, and I think it will certainly strongly enforce these principles upon those who do not wish to employ them on their own will, making the few well-known extremists and troublemakers a _ persona non grata_ in their own country`s political life.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg
_
We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah I guess your're right I should have been more careful in stressing that what I wrote mainly concerned Croatia. I was a bit shocked by the map kid neuro posted, as it presented most of Croatia as a mere province of Hungary that was unjustly taken away after the WW1. So I wanted to point out that Croatia had a distinct identitiy throughout its union with Hungary and deserved to be an independent state. And yes I am well aware that unlike many foreigners, Hungarians understood very well the nature of the war in Croatia, and were not only sympathetic but also helped a lot, by accepting refugees, givig out humanitarian aid, and most important of all, turning a blind eye to massive weapons shipments that we so desperately needed to even out the odds, as we were virtually defenceless in the beginning. To that I am and always will be eternally grateful.

I had no idea about the extent of the other cases of territorial concessions though, I apologize for that.

The two countries (Croatia and Hungary) had a more or less a stabile relationship until the 19th century when the demons of nationalism were set loose, but hapily that conflict died along with Austria-Hungary. In fact we have so much in common it's silly. A lot of Hungarians live throughout Croatia, not just in border areas, and as far as I know have no problems with displaying their ethnic heritage. As a side note, my grand-grandmother was Hungarian, settled in Croatia with her parents when she was just a small child and had lived here for the remainder of her life.

The histories of the two countries are so interwoven that for example Croatian national hero, Nikola Subic Zrinski, enjoys a similar reputation in Hungary, only under the name Zriny. This is interesting because, as unfortunately is often the case, one's man hero is another man's villain, and neighboring states often view each others respective historical figures as criminals, butchers or worse. Well, not so in this case.

I know that Transylvania is a hot potato between Rumania and Hungary even today. I have already seen one thread going very bad over this topic at the Medieval: Total war forum. So we really have to be careful and openminded here.


You are completely right about the EU, hopefully Croatia will a part of it soon. Only by making borders meaningless, this constant bickering about minorities will end. The simple fact of life is, you cannot draw borders and make everybody happy. There will always be minorities, large or small, and there will always be people who either see them as threat and treat them harshly, or see them as an opportunity to expand. It never ends, only adds layer upon layer of history that in the end traps us and our children and our children's children... Maybe the EU can end that.

As for the status of Croatia in medieval Hungary, yeah it's true. I just didn't want to burden the post with a lot of data so I didn't write about it's status. Comparison with the Scotland is a good one, both of these examples were personal unions, that is two distinct countries tied together by a joint ruler (a monarch).


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif Of course none of this detracts from the fact that Croatia just an hour ago simply thrashed the Hungarian national team in the semifinals of the Olympic handball tournament and thus advanced to the finals. But this is what you get when playing against world handball champions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Jasko76
08-27-2004, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are completely right about the EU, hopefully Croatia will a part of it soon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Croatia in EU? Not likely to happen very soon.

Why? Croatia's economy is not nearly good enough for EU standards, but even more importantly, as long as war criminals charged for war crimes in Bosnia are not dealt with, Croatia can forget about EU. Sranjo Tudman really left a lot of shizit to be mopped up.

And an official appology to Bosnia wouldn't be a bad thing to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.mediacircus.net/welcome5.jpg

Welcome to Sarajevo

llandaff
08-27-2004, 09:01 AM
I cannot add any historic data, just add to the flame http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was in Croatia this summer. Wonderful country, my best vacation ever (no kidding).

For me, it would be better if Croatia will stay out of EU http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Why? Because everything will be 2 times more expensive!

Wannabe-Pilot
08-27-2004, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are completely right about the EU, hopefully Croatia will a part of it soon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Croatia in EU? Not likely to happen very soon.

Why? Croatia's economy is not nearly good enough for EU standards, but even more importantly, as long as war criminals charged for war crimes in Bosnia are not dealt with, Croatia can forget about EU. Sranjo Tudman really left a lot of shizit to be mopped up.

And an official appology to Bosnia wouldn't be a bad thing to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.mediacircus.net/welcome5.jpg

Welcome to Sarajevo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Very dumb post if I may say so.

Why?

Soon - I don't know what soon is to you but soon for me is 2009-2011. Some people say it will happen in 2007, but that's a pipe dream. But 2011? We'll be in by then, be apsolutely sure of that. And in my book, that is soon (lately years have just been rushing past me, can't believe it 2004 already).

Dealing with war criminals charged with crimes comitted in Bosnia? Be sure we are. In fact, every single person charged by ICTY for war crimes in Bosnia has either been apprehended or has given himself in (Croats that is, Karadzic and Mladic are still hiding). In fact, there has never been any problem with those individuals. As soon as the first 'batch' of indictments was sent back in 1998, all of those involved, ALL OF THEM, went to den Hague of their own free will. Some have been convicted, some freed of all charges, and some are still undergoing trial.

The only, ONLY presumed war criminal of Croatian nationality that is still hidding is Gotovina - and he has got apsolutely nothing to do with Bih and I know you know that. He is indicted for war crimes comitted in Croatia.

FYI, the Lora ruling has been quashed by the Supreme Court and is to be heard again in front of a different council of judges, if that is what you mean.

Please refrain from uninformed highly insulting (for myself and my country) comments.

Apology would be nice, yes, but if you ever spent time in Croatia (a longer period of time) you'd find that virtually nobody agrees with Sranjo Tudjman's war in Bih and realizes what a mess it was.

I believe you are from Bih - if so, you really should know better than this. Don't confuse the issue and don't give false info to the uninformed members of the community.

huggy87
08-27-2004, 10:40 AM
Wow! No wonder so many of you left for america.

Atomic_Marten
08-27-2004, 04:19 PM
I'd say, huggy87 that you hit the bottom of the problem. I just waiting my chance to left (rather get a hell out of there). But I prefer Australia and maybe more New Zealand over North and South American continent. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fly nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

basdirks
08-27-2004, 04:55 PM
If you have that choice, take Australia, for a billion reasons.

OT: Shame to see Hungary use so much doping in the Olympics.

Jasko76
08-29-2004, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wannabe-Pilot:
Apology would be nice, yes, but if you ever spent time in Croatia (a longer period of time) you'd find that virtually nobody agrees with Sranjo Tudjman's war in Bih and realizes what a mess it was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. I'm from BiH, and I've spent a long time in Croatia, four years to be precise, In fact I vist Croatia every summer, my dad lives in Zupanja, and believe, me, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe I just had bad luck, running into worst kind of people?

As for war criminals, what about the warm reception bestowed to Blaskic upon his return to Zagreb? A hero's welcome. Than again, those that greeted him welcome could represent a minority of Croats.

As for Gotovina - I'd like to shake his hand for what he did! May he never give up.

You know, reading your post makes me think that things will get better eventually. Let's hope for a better future! I just hope that Croats in BiH will soon wake up from the false dreams and hopes given to them by Tudjman.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.mediacircus.net/welcome5.jpg

Welcome to Sarajevo

Red Allert
08-31-2004, 01:50 AM
Like Jasko said Let's hope for better future for everyone and let uss make the better future. We should work for it and not fight with eachothers. We should show that we have learnt something from WW2.


To live is to die.

Rab03
08-31-2004, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
...what is your oppinion, why the whole eastern Europe 'willingly' enter the Varszaw Pact (and therefore declare them as communist countries or become close supporters of the Soviet regime -- Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, DDR...)? Reason is the same: in east Europe late '40's you did not want to have Soviets against you.... there's always someone <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errr, Wrong! All of the listed countries were occupied in some way. As far as I know, Yugoslavia was never in Warsaw pact. Instead, like it did in 1941 with Germany, it defied supremacy of USSR in 1948 and was never supporter of USSR politics.
Beside other reasons, Hungary was promised of territorial gains. Reasonable, carefully thinked politics of the time had only one conclusion-not to get on war path with Germany. Even British prime minister Chamberlain waved with "historic" agreement with Germany. It wasn't, in general, clearly seen that Germany's power was over-rated. In fact, WWII would have entirely different course if UK and France immediately attacked Germany upon her attack on Poland. This was Germany's greatest fear as Germany was not prepared for war on two fronts in the early sages of war.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

[This message was edited by Rab03 on Tue August 31 2004 at 02:26 AM.]

Atomic_Marten
08-31-2004, 12:03 PM
Rab03 could you please explain further your thoughts. What is wrong in my post? Where is the error? Except for "Yugoslavia in Warszaw pact", which I corrected after Jasko76's intervention and add Albania on the list instead.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Ankanor
08-31-2004, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Rab03 could you please explain further your thoughts. What is wrong in my post? Where is the error? Except for "Yugoslavia in Warszaw pact", which I corrected after Jasko76's intervention and add Albania on the list instead.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps the fact that at the time when the Warsaw pact was formed the countries listed were with communist government. Particularly Bulgaria was with the big brother all the way, something I am not proud of. But it was because of the Stalin-way clearing of the leaders of the country, politicians, military men, teachers, doctors, priests, businessmen and cultural elite, ordinary people who didn't like the communist government. There is also a Bulgarian Version of GULAG. And there are stories of people sent there for listening to Western Radio, of boys taken from their graduation proms for wearing too tight trousers(western influence- rock music). Sorry, OT... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif
But if you think that the lands east of the iron curtain decided to join the pact because they were afraid of the russians, you are wrong. No free will here. They were USSR satelites and if any of the satelites were to sway off their orbitals, they were soon made back to the right way. Hungary Uprising 1956 and Prague 1968 anyone? Hats off to those people http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Just to elaborate. The platoon sergeant, doesn't say "ok, platoon, would you like to join me on a cross-country?" in a soft voice that melts ice statues http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.
Instead he yells http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif "on your feet Sh1theads, move your candy @sses out and prepare for marching. And every lady who haven't brought their jelly butts out armed and ready in 3min will regret this day till the end of their misearble mediocre immitation of life. Do I make myself clear! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Give me a Hoooraaah, Sergeant!"

Or something of that sort http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif No offence at the polite platoon sergeants here, if such species exist

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

[This message was edited by Ankanor on Tue August 31 2004 at 02:16 PM.]

Atomic_Marten
08-31-2004, 03:27 PM
Ankanor I can not really see the point of your quote post. If I stated anything that will be in serious collision with your opinion I would understand you. But this way I really can not.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Ankanor
08-31-2004, 03:55 PM
Ok, so I had to quote the first post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Bulgaria, Poland, Chechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and DDR did not join the warsaw pact because they feared the russians, they joined(or formed) the Warsaw pact because they were already satelites of the USSR. Puppets. It's a subtle difference, and not actually an important one, but I am bored and tired after a hard day, so I tend to exxagerate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

p1ngu666
08-31-2004, 04:34 PM
interesting, i hope the boarders will melt and we wont get wars again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
intriguing things tho
story a)
a football fan is being beaten by a fan of another club, then he noticies it was a guy he went to a england match with. hes like oi its me u clart, thug replies its not bloody england now is it?. (btw i dont like/condone violence, or football)

ppl seak to be in a group of ppl who are the same, then fight the other groups who they belive are bad.

also the decison makers arent the population, they get dragged along http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. democrasy as we have now in uk and most other places is only slightly true democrasy, the iraq affair will show u that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
in the words of the mighty bill hicks (mis quote by bad memory) 400 years of democrasy, cant wait till it starts walking and talking.

btw, im worried about what happens in iraq and afganistan.

on a lighter note, i hope i can tour the world, plan to see europe especialy eastern, go thru russia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif and onto america etc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

oh and ending on another small miss quote by a american president
"arnt i destroying my enemies by making friends with them?"

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Ankanor
08-31-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
interesting, i hope the boarders will melt and we wont get wars again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
intriguing things tho
story a)
a football fan is being beaten by a fan of another club, then he noticies it was a guy he went to a england match with. hes like oi its me u clart, thug replies its not bloody england now is it?. (btw i dont like/condone violence, or football)

ppl seak to be in a group of ppl who are the same, then fight the other groups who they belive are bad.

also the decison makers arent the population, they get dragged along http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. democrasy as we have now in uk and most other places is only slightly true democrasy, the iraq affair will show u that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
in the words of the mighty bill hicks (mis quote by bad memory) 400 years of democrasy, cant wait till it starts walking and talking.

btw, im worried about what happens in iraq and afganistan.

on a lighter note, i hope i can tour the world, plan to see europe especialy eastern, go thru russia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif and onto america etc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

oh and ending on another small miss quote by a american president
"arnt i destroying my enemies by making friends with them?"

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once all wars on Earh are over, the Klingons will appear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
BTW, that story made me laugh really hard. I've just watched "Snatch" and I can almost hear the voices of the two, accent and all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

That's not a shotgun. It's a bloody AntiAircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

reverse5
08-31-2004, 04:51 PM
Like Jasko, I've spent a long time in Croatia - before and during the war in Bosnia and Croatia. My Croatian friends (I grew up with them) still to this day hold war criminals like Blaskic and Gotovina as figures of highest national reverence. I am Serb by nationality, and I will make this statement: Bosnian Serbs (with help from Milosevic) were primarily guilty for Bosnian war. But, in Croatia situation was slightly more complex - Serbs and Croats have carried animosities toward each other since WWII. In WWII Croatia was a official ally of Germany and, unlike Hungary and Romania, was very successful in implementing the "Final Solution". I was born and Raised in Sarajevo, city with the large Jewish population. During the WWII, Jews were virtually exterminated from my city by Croatian military. Serbs, Jews and Roma (Gipsies) were hauled of to one of the few Croatian concentration-camps on daily basis. Jews that escaped alive settled mostly in Palestine (Israel). Sarajevo gave two great Israeli generals -Chaim Bar Lev and David (Dado) Elazar. Their families were exterminated in Sarajevo.
However, Serbs carried the grudge the longest. Major part of initial war crimes against Muslims and Croats was retribution for Ottoman's treatment of Serbs and Croatian State crimes against Serbian populous. It was almost surreal to acknowledge that a lot of my countrymen were hell-bent on revenging crimes committed 50 years ago.

As far as acceptance of Croatia in EU, I agree with Jasko that it will take few years - I would not be surprised if EU takes a stand of accepting Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia at the same time. One of the things that people back home (in all ex-Yugoslav republics) do not understand is that European Union is primarily an economic institution, and ex-Yugoslav republics are too small and very economically fragile - their very economical existence prior to EU acceptance depends greatly on establishment of stronger economical ties.


Hej Jasko - dobar ti je taj Meser - podsjeca me na onu scenu sa Batom Zivotinjom kada pridrzava umiruceg Zeku, a ovaj mu govori - "Ne vidim Zare, mrak je pao oko mene". Hehehe. Da mi je nabaviti Partizansku Eskadrilu na DVD-u, dao bi milju dolara bez ikake frke.

Atomic_Marten
08-31-2004, 04:57 PM
Ankanor O.K. I can understand you now... because I too have a pretty busy day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

But as you may check I stated in my post that they are not actually willingly enter that pact in rather ironic way. How one that is in fear of someone, make free will decision? And that fear, threat were not of 'empty' nature. Yugoslavia stand up against USSR and barely made it. But IMO, Yugoslavia have enormous dose of luck in that situation. If Soviets executed that decision to attack Yugoslavia, they will overrun it. But not without heavy fight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif - that is at least what my grandpa tell me - in that time he was soldier in Yugoslav tank division. (he was also participated in that unfortunate event with the Italia, when almost war broke between Yugoslavia and Italy over city Trieste and nearby territory - divided in two zones. The war was seemed inevitable, since both sides were boldly claimed whole territory and therefore, he and his comrades end up on Yugoslav - Italian border in the T-34's waiting for their orders. Luckily war never broke out and situation were solved in more or less mutual satisfaction).

What I was all about to say is that situation with axis satelites and Warszaw pact communist satelites wasn't so different in the relationships between state governments (however it is not wise to equalise these states completely if for nothing else, but because of nazi racial laws).

For this point, IMO, irrelevant seems all the territorial promises that Germany made to their allies, since they were far from equal.

The only difference in our opinion is because I think that fear made them to obbey Soviets and you do not.

Ankanor
08-31-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Ankanor O.K. I can understand you now... because I too have a pretty busy day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

The only difference in our opinion is because I think that fear made them to obbey Soviets and you do not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

right on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

Atomic_Marten
08-31-2004, 05:11 PM
BTW Ankanor "Snatch" is great film, I can see that we can find mustual understanding there, and also as far as Klingonic matter as concerned. There will always be someone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif.

Sto se tice PE (filma) sjecam se jos samo nekih isjecaka - gledao sam film kao dijete prije nekih 16-17 g. Ali se te scene sa Zaretom sjecam. I mislim da ga sam ga vidio medju DVD-ovima u mojoj lokalnoj videoteci... dao si mi dobru ideju reverse5... he-he... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Rab03
09-01-2004, 12:56 AM
To Atomic_Marten:
That was kind a joke, sorry (imitating Quiz-shows.)As a mistake I primarily meant what you said about Yugoslavia. Also, by Churchill's and Stalin's agreement, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia were to be divided zones of interest (50/50). With more or less use of brute force, Stalin installed communist regimes in those countries that turned them exclusively toward USSR(except Yugoslavia).

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 01:06 AM
Reverse5 & Atomic Marten -

Hej, momci, nemojte spominjati Partizansku Eskadrilu, suze su mi posle na oci! Uporno ga godinama trazim a nemogu da nadem... jos se sjecam muzike - dam dam damdam!

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Atomic_Marten
09-01-2004, 01:49 AM
No problem Rab03 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. When I read my post again I was realised that knowledge of my English language is not that high... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif it is written in hurry and I can also find that from it it may actually be concluded that these countries were installed communist governments after they joined W.pact which is not true. Like I say, my English sux http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif. BTW that Hurri skin look nice and you bet I'm goin' to chck your skins. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Eh da Jasko76... ako ne mozes naci film nasao sam zgodan link o PE pa pogledaj. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Partizanska Eskadrila (film) u slicicama (http://www.geocities.com/freck0/index0.html)

Fly high http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 01:51 AM
Hehe... znam za tu slovenacku stranicu! Hvala!

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif