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Rammjaeger
12-07-2007, 04:34 AM
Funny to see an illustration of a Luftwaffe Sturmgruppe attacking in a square-shaped formation of 64 aircraft:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WeFix_i03ZI

I've read through some material about the Sturmgruppen before but I never come across any mention of such an attack. That sort of formation would not be a good idea to begin with. Never heard of anything similar. Maybe someone at History Channel misinterpreted desciptions of "massed attack" or "combat box" or whatever.

Feathered_IV
12-07-2007, 04:43 AM
I see what you mean. That seems highly suspect.

"He pulls back on the stick. The agile Mustang responds smartly.."

Ridiculous! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

BGs_Ricky
12-07-2007, 04:50 AM
LoL ! That looked very odd indeed, especially the second row shoulder-shooting over the first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Sturmgruppe sometimes used to fly line abreast or in a V formation, there might have been several formations flying line-abreast or in V, but they would be far more spaced than that

Flying in such a formation as in the video, that is nonsense IMHO...

FlatSpinMan
12-07-2007, 04:52 AM
That guy was there and I was not but that reeeaaallly looks wrong, doesn't it? Even watching them open p on the bombers over the shoulders of the planes in front - it's like HL on a bad day.
Lovely CG on the P-51's though, in the tiny Youtube version I watched at least.

ViktorViktor
12-07-2007, 05:52 AM
My guess is that the Friedler's interview was done independently of the animated sequence.

And that Friedler never got a chance to review the animation (before it was too late ?).

BGs_Ricky
12-07-2007, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
My guess is that the Friedler's interview was done independently of the animated sequence.

And that Friedler never got a chance to review the animation (before it was too late ?).

That is probably what happened. He said that there were eight formations of eight aircrafts each flying line-abreast, but he never said that they were close-packed together in a perfect square.
The CGI animators there are quite good at their job, but they don't seem to have much knowledge in WWII air tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WN_Barbarossa
12-07-2007, 06:09 AM
I think its a tragic coincindence.

The bombers and the escorting mustangs appeared, when the poor FW-190s were practicing the parade formation flying for the Führer's birthday.

However AFAIK it is not a wise thing to open fire when one or more friendly aircrafts are at your 12 o'clock position, in the middle of your crosshair...

Feathered_IV
12-07-2007, 06:20 AM
I love aviation. And I will gratefully watch anything that will deal with the subject. But you have to admit; The Dogfights series is deeply, deeply flawed.

Harti_5thW
12-07-2007, 06:29 AM
Did anyone notice that in the 2nd part the armament of the 190 suddenly changed to 4 30mm cannons?

They don't pay **** attention to detail, as long as the Americans are consistently portrayed as better it's fine. As already posted: "The agile Mustang responds smartly"

leitmotiv
12-07-2007, 06:40 AM
Sadly, there was a possibility this kind of lock step formation was correct. After the winter of 1943-44 the German fighter force was largely constituted of half-trained amateurs. There was the possibility this was a "morale formation" to keep everybody together for the difficult assault on the American heavies. This would be the aerial equivalent of a French assault column from the Napoleonic Wars.

Bewolf
12-07-2007, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Sadly, there was a possibility this kind of lock step formation was correct. After the winter of 1943-44 the German fighter force was largely constituted of half-trained amateurs. There was the possibility this was a "morale formation" to keep everybody together for the difficult assault on the American heavies. This would be the aerial equivalent of a French assault column from the Napoleonic Wars.

Considering the difficulty and skill required in keeping up such a tight formation, even more so shooting from behind out of it, I consider that rather unlikely.

Gotta say though, the scene where they attack that helpless smoking 109 is a typical scene you usually find in movies showing the baddies doing this.

M_Gunz
12-07-2007, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
My guess is that the Friedler's interview was done independently of the animated sequence.

And that Friedler never got a chance to review the animation (before it was too late ?).

That is probably what happened. He said that there were eight formations of eight aircrafts each flying line-abreast, but he never said that they were close-packed together in a perfect square.
The CGI animators there are quite good at their job, but they don't seem to have much knowledge in WWII air tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's all reported as if it were true whole facts, not pieces put together with bits of
artistic and narrative invention. And remember that anything they missed doesn't matter,
or the honest misreporting (of history by guys that never had it straight or needed to)
into the best acceptable story they can come up with within Budget, Deadline, Show Time
and of course not to go over the heads of the 8th grade average viewer.

Letting the vets check the results might mean changing something. That takes money and time.
Everybody that thinks these shows are all made on goodness of the heart can go out for ice
cream and cookies now 'just because'! Our next story is about the Plane that could do
everything best and then it's nap time!

scaredycat1
12-07-2007, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
My guess is that the Friedler's interview was done independently of the animated sequence.

And that Friedler never got a chance to review the animation (before it was too late ?).



Its too bad that they dont have an artist do storyboard scetches while they are intervewing the pilots.

waffen-79
12-07-2007, 07:09 AM
he was alone battling the two 190's the whole time?

he barrel rolled and the 190 pilot just watched?

it's funny how most clips of dogfights are of just one pilot in disadvantage

WN_Barbarossa
12-07-2007, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Sadly, there was a possibility this kind of lock step formation was correct. After the winter of 1943-44 the German fighter force was largely constituted of half-trained amateurs. There was the possibility this was a "morale formation" to keep everybody together for the difficult assault on the American heavies. This would be the aerial equivalent of a French assault column from the Napoleonic Wars.

LOL, just try to fly in such tight formation with amateurs on HL...
BTW French assault columns consisted infantrymen not aircrafts, it's like suggesting to a foot soldier to make rolling scissors. Morale raising? My morale would be very low if I had to fly in the middle of a huge squre which makes a perfect target, while I can collide with another pilot in every moment.

But wait, maybe they were attacking in a phalanx formation over <STRIKE>SPARTAAA</STRIKE> GERMANYYYY

leitmotiv
12-07-2007, 07:24 AM
In life the formation would not have been this rigid, of course. The Japanese, at the end, for reasons which defy comprehension, sent up fighters in massive "gaggles" to meet other fighters. It is much easier to control a bunch of untrained pilots by having them follow the leader than trying to execute something really hard like formations of "finger fours."

LEBillfish
12-07-2007, 09:18 AM
No idea if true or not, though not debating the pilots word for it in any way........My advice is "look it up", as i'm sure there would be combat reports on this.....Do a search based on date and location or by units.

You may be surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(as such a rediculous formation may of been some idea to have first row fire and drop out, then second, and so on basically setting up a wall of rounds......Just a guess, yet bet the facts are out there)



Originally posted by leitmotiv:
..... The Japanese, at the end, for reasons which defy comprehension, sent up fighters in massive "gaggles" to meet other fighters......

In actuallity, those "swarms" were due to a number of factors and more common early-mid war then late......Partly due to groupings (3's not pairs), pilots taught there is only one tactic "attack, attack, attack"....and oddly to how we envision Japanese as being team oriented, they were much more individualistic in tactics then most other forces and so on.

carguy_
12-07-2007, 09:57 AM
I can`t help saying "heeeeey,not fair not fair!!!" on the 109.Looked like a G10 too.I guess it`s just me,I don`t pick on such enemies ingame.

Other than that it iritates me that `44-`45 German pilots are consistently portrayed as teens who can`t even perform a standard evasion maneuver.Look,those two Wulfs keep flying in a straight line doing nothing.

Ingame I`d easily decompose the Mustang by myself.Can`t say the same about the real thing.

Those guns didn`t look like MK108s to me and there were only two of them.Pretty to watch nonetheless.

Deedsundone
12-07-2007, 10:11 AM
But if you look at his handgestures while he talks about it,it seems to be like that.

Brain32
12-07-2007, 10:15 AM
I never looked "the Dogfights" for rivet counting, it's a fun and entertaining show, with great visual and sound effects which IMO only serve as a background of the real story the pilot is telling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I mean have you watched "the Last Gunfighter", the speaker says how he is about to fire his last Sidewinder and that he is out of missles, but the Crusader model shown has two more Sidewinders on his left rails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It was still fun to watch it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

general_kalle
12-07-2007, 10:15 AM
appearently it says that the mustang was faster at low altitude but the fw190 was more maneuverable

i find it quite oppposite in IL2 question is what is true. (if any of it is)

TC_Stele
12-07-2007, 11:32 AM
I've read all the posts here, and I honestly think too many of you are trying to compare the pilot's accounts and the Dogfights show to your own experiences through IL2. Granted there may be flaws, but don't use this flight sim as a comparison.

I think I'll do the same with a burglary I saw on tv with Pac Man.

general_kalle
12-07-2007, 11:36 AM
true. this game might not (is not) the real thing.


scary stuff if you watch the 2 part also.

do you guys think the me190 was more maneuverable at low altitude than the p51?
it seams to me that both p51 and Fw190 should have been very maneuverable oposite of what they are in the game.

striker-85
12-07-2007, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I never looked "the Dogfights" for rivet counting, it's a fun and entertaining show, with great visual and sound effects which IMO only serve as a background of the real story the pilot is telling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I mean have you watched "the Last Gunfighter", the speaker says how he is about to fire his last Sidewinder and that he is out of missles, but the Crusader model shown has two more Sidewinders on his left rails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It was still fun to watch it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

This pretty much sums up my thoughts around this too. I doubt Dogfights is not meant to be the authoritatve historically soucre for air combat, it is just a fun, entertaining show to watch and as a bonus (the real gem) you get to hear first hand pilot accounts of their fights. We are loosing WWII pilots more and more each day so the more we can get their stories documented the better.

I stopped counting the numerous errors way back in season 1 and now just nuke a bag of popcorn and enjoy the "show".

Divine-Wind
12-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by striker-85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
I never looked "the Dogfights" for rivet counting, it's a fun and entertaining show, with great visual and sound effects which IMO only serve as a background of the real story the pilot is telling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I mean have you watched "the Last Gunfighter", the speaker says how he is about to fire his last Sidewinder and that he is out of missles, but the Crusader model shown has two more Sidewinders on his left rails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It was still fun to watch it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

This pretty much sums up my thoughts around this too. I doubt Dogfights is not meant to be the authoritatve historically soucre for air combat, it is just a fun, entertaining show to watch and as a bonus (the real gem) you get to hear first hand pilot accounts of their fights. We are loosing WWII pilots more and more each day so the more we can get their stories documented the better.

I stopped counting the numerous errors way back in season 1 and now just nuke a bag of popcorn and enjoy the "show". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same here. I just cannot stand all the repeated info when the breaks are over though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Feathered_IV
12-08-2007, 12:52 AM
It's the pompous, self-congatulatory narration that I can't stand. That and the 5th grader charts: "Our kill 'em all ace is here. The two dimensional bad guy who dosen't deserve an introduction is here......etc. etc.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

WTE_Ibis
12-08-2007, 04:26 AM
Exactly, that got up my nose as well.
Kiddy stuff, pitched at the lowest common denominator.
Other than the genuine pilot- total c?ap.
Just another collective feel good wank.

.

SeaFireLIV
12-08-2007, 06:52 AM
Yea, the narrater uses a lot of dramatic heavily laden biased wording. Stuff like `bloodthirsty` fockewolves. Blood thirsty? If they were shooting bailing B17 pilots then may be so, but they were shooting down bombers as any fighter woould do with enemy bombers. Not that I want to see B17s shot down, but you get my point. I know the Jerries are the bad guys already.

That german formation was very unusual and I believe depicted wrongly in the graphics. Common sense says that if pilots were flying that close that there would have had to be a collision - and shooting OVER each other? No. I think the formation would`ve been a little more loose with perhaps each row one step above or below the other. Then possibly the second row could shoot as well as the first.

As for not comparing IL2 to this. I find IL2 very good for comparing to real life dogfight situations. I am always aware not to treat IL2 as the benchmark of reality, but many things are similar. For example, the P51 pilot thought he was fighting ONE aircraft when he was really fighting 2. I`ve had this happen both offline and online. I`m spending 2 minutes avoiding some cocky jerry who seems to be every where when it dawns on me it`s 2 guys in identical aircraft. This happens especially much when I fly with no icons. That`s why I knew when watching the clip that the guy was fighting two 190s before they revealed it.

LEBillfish
12-08-2007, 07:23 AM
Ok, well, that's rather biased of them yet lets look at it from a different perspective.....

Imagine yourself a child to young teen...You watch the show with "ubi-"that guy"" detailed explinations, logic and charts.....and in roughly 60 seconds you're playing nintendo.....

In contrast lets say they do as they are, more sensational then fact, "go OUR team go!" easy to understand and in short order the show is over and you can't wait for next week!

Well, though no doubt for their ratings, I say so what, as a child was just turned onto WWII aircombat before it is totally forgotten by this generation......In time as his interest grows, he'll spout his "incorrect" facts and get shot down like the 109 in the clip, and if having enough of the right stuff....Will go look it up to find out the truth......The legacy is passed on.

For you and I, we most likely know more then the shows producers and know where to cross check them....In fact, they don't lose you as a viewer as you're dying for each episode to to see what they got wrong, and advertise freely for them as we all come here to tell each other how better educated we are to it and try and out "that-guy" all others.



So in the end, seems to work out for everyone except DuxCorvan who is no doubt watching "teenage enema nurses in nunnery bondage" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

carguy_
12-08-2007, 07:35 AM
There`s something to consider about this though.

Those USAF pilots ,as well trained, had a big margin in using their planes` abilities.The Focke had a bigger potential, especially down low, but I doubt any of those German rookies would be able to shake a good P51 pilot in a close up T&B fight.

Food for thought for those blazing away with their Mustangs online.

Spinnetti
12-08-2007, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I never looked "the Dogfights" for rivet counting, it's a fun and entertaining show, with great visual and sound effects which IMO only serve as a background of the real story the pilot is telling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I mean have you watched "the Last Gunfighter", the speaker says how he is about to fire his last Sidewinder and that he is out of missles, but the Crusader model shown has two more Sidewinders on his left rails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It was still fun to watch it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Right on.. The interesting bit is the pilots account. The rest of the drivel is just to add visuals to the story. The one-sided nationalistic narration (propaganda) really got on my nerves, but the story is still facinating.

Metatron_123
12-08-2007, 09:12 AM
I find it interesting that pilots from all sides in world war two usually blocked out the fact that they were fighting other humans from their minds. And thus when they actually saw the pilot being killed (like in this video) they were shocked. Finnish pilots forced to strafe soviet troops were similarly sickened.

Korolov1986
12-08-2007, 09:35 AM
Ah, because "Dogfights" actually says something *good* about American pilots during WW2, of course it must be pure propoganda, flag-waving, bull****!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm so glad this forum's members know better -- the Americans were really bloodthirsty, heartless, evil people who would/will do anything for world domination. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Seriously guys, sometimes you amaze me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

PhantomKira
12-08-2007, 10:18 AM
5th grade "our guy here" stuff...

Go our Guys! etc...

Agreed.

However, they do a nice job, I think, with a few of the manuvers when explaining them in thier "boxed background", for example when they explained what a High Yo Yo is during the "USS Midway" edition.

Of course they then totally screw up with other things without a care in the world. Sigh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Still, kinda fun to get some
information, eg hearing from the pilots about different engagements, even if you have to make corrections and fill in the blanks with personal knowledge when it comes to the other information, presented by people who weren't there.

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Ah, because "Dogfights" actually says something *good* about American pilots during WW2, of course it must be pure propoganda, flag-waving, bull****!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm so glad this forum's members know better -- the Americans were really bloodthirsty, heartless, evil people who would/will do anything for world domination. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Seriously guys, sometimes you amaze me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

They don't say "something good". They say "We are the best look how we dominate everybody else!"

That is the pet peeve most ppl have with this show, me thinks. That, and generally not so good research.

Now, that kinda was to be expected from an american show, even initially the title "dogfights" made hope for "dogfights" in general, not just from american and their past and present allies side. And no, that was not ment to sound degatory. In Europe, due to its historic development over the last 60 years, especially towards tighter integration of different european countries and thus a more then artificial understanding for other people, shows usually are not that single sided.
From this perspective you have to judge the sentiments going towards that show.

Think of how shows on the civil war in the US, at least the good ones, reflect on both sides as well, not just showing the Union heroicly giving spankings to anonymous southerners en masse.

FliegerAas
12-08-2007, 11:02 AM
Obviously he didn't get the point at all. His post sounds quite paranoid to me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AFJ_rsm
12-08-2007, 11:29 AM
http://www.vogelforen.de/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Phas3e
12-08-2007, 11:31 AM
Theres that 'eliteist' attitude again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HuninMunin
12-08-2007, 11:33 AM
EDIT
Nevermind.
Pax and all that.

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Ah, because "Dogfights" actually says something *good* about American pilots during WW2, of course it must be pure propoganda, flag-waving, bull****!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm so glad this forum's members know better -- the Americans were really bloodthirsty, heartless, evil people who would/will do anything for world domination. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Seriously guys, sometimes you amaze me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

They don't say "something good". They say "We are the best look how we dominate everybody else!"

That is the pet peeve most ppl have with this show, me thinks. That, and generally not so good research.

Now, that kinda was to be expected from an american show, even initially the title "dogfights" made hope for "dogfights" in general, not just from american and their past and present allies side. And no, that was not ment to sound degatory. In Europe, due to its historic development over the last 60 years, especially towards tighter integration of different european countries and thus a more then artificial understanding for other people, shows usually are not that single sided.
From this perspective you have to judge the sentiments going towards that show.

Think of how shows on the civil war in the US, at least the good ones, reflect on both sides as well, not just showing the Union heroicly giving spankings to anonymous southerners en masse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazing the Elitist attitude of Europeans these days.

Get a few cultures together and call it a 'Union' and now they're experts in understanding other cultures.

America is made up of every culture on earth, so don't dictate to us your 'melting-potter than thou' attitudes. We were doing it 200 years before you were born.

As to 'dogfights', each one is done from the perspective of the pilot involved. Honestly, if a British fighter wasn't there, then why discuss it?

Secondly, the 'other pilots' are dead. This is generally due to the fact that the American pilot won the engagement. In this case, bouncing the pilot over his own wing. I don't think the man survived to give his version.

You know what? Screw it.

I'm tired of ****head Europeans with your elitist opinions and anti-American sentiments. If it were up to me the next bomb that comes flying your way - DEAL WITH IT YOUR ****ING SELVES, you simpering servile crybabies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, even with the danger of fueling to fire, you didn't exactly disprove my point here.

That aside, give me a better explaination for the those obvious differences in how to present historic shows and I am the very last person on earth not willing to listen and discuss. You are certainly right with that "elitist" attitude of europeans towards the US in general and I certainly understand that enragement over it.

But seriously, how else would you interprete it?

Wepps
12-08-2007, 11:56 AM
Bah I apologize for that. It was uncalled for, and I deleted it from a spirit of self-moderation.

I caution people, however, to start realizing that while you are on your tours of different countries and understanding of cultures, that in the future it might be a good idea to conclude that America is one of these too.

Understanding them is a good start.

Phas3e
12-08-2007, 12:01 PM
Like these guys understand New Zealand hehe

http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/show-news.asp?ID=1363

(Joke btw not a jab at americans)

Stiletto-
12-08-2007, 12:26 PM
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
Bah I apologize for that. It was uncalled for, and I deleted it from a spirit of self-moderation.

No harm done, Wepps. I consider you one of the more reasonable people on this board.




I caution people, however, to start realizing that while you are on your tours of different countries and understanding of cultures, that in the future it might be a good idea to conclude that America is one of these too.

Understanding them is a good start.


I have been to the US several times, I have many friends over there and, in fact, my girlfriend is american. So my knowledge from the US is not exactly purely academic, nor do I think the average american is any less or more stupid/intelligent then any other people.

My point basicly was that the US is much more nationalcentric then other nations, for whatever reasons. If that is better, worse or just different I let others to decide. But it should help explain why some ppl develop such a pet peeve against shows other folks appear to have no problem with.

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Right. And I dare to say this in large parts is also the reason why many many (but certainly not all) people having seen such shows but have never really or only on the basic prejudies caused by said series done any reasearch, come to games like IL2 expecting their crates to be so superiour.

BoCfuss
12-08-2007, 12:41 PM
I don't understand how a P-51C could so easily bring down 109s and 190s at many different ranges with only 4 .50s. I also don't understand how all the engagements involved 2 on 2s and 1 0n 1s and not the 100s verses 5 or 6 we hear about on these boards. Weird.

SeaFireLIV
12-08-2007, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by BoCfuss:
I also don't understand how all the engagements involved 2 on 2s and 1 0n 1s and not the 100s verses 5 or 6 we hear about on these boards. Weird.

That`s because 1 on 1s and 2 on 2s are far more exciting and easier to depict than the combats that featured dozens of aircraft against each other. The viewer can identify with 1 guy who`s taking on the other bad guy.

I mean there were at least 8 P51s in that film and 64 190 FWs, we only saw what happened to THREE of those planes. Did the other 69 planes just fly above in a circle while this guy who says, "I`m gone!" had his private fight? Of course not. Other air battles were going on, P51s fighting 190s to protect B17s, but the guys who make the series prefer to miss it out cos it was too complex, boring, not as heroic.

Let`s not forget that dogfights, even with hundreds of aircraft in the air at once often fall into indivdual duals of 1s and 2s, were a pilot is simply fighting another enemy pilot. He often sees nothing else but his foe, similar to ancient ground battles where a warrior might focus on an enemy warrior in the midst of thousands of troops. They all have an individual story to tell that omits the world about them.
Simple really.

HuninMunin
12-08-2007, 01:26 PM
20 vs 1 engaments arent heroic enought - its as simple as that.

SeaFire beat me to it.

JG4_Helofly
12-08-2007, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:
Bah I apologize for that. It was uncalled for, and I deleted it from a spirit of self-moderation.

No harm done, Wepps. I consider you one of the more reasonable people on this board.




I caution people, however, to start realizing that while you are on your tours of different countries and understanding of cultures, that in the future it might be a good idea to conclude that America is one of these too.

Understanding them is a good start.


I have been to the US several times, I have many friends over there and, in fact, my girlfriend is american. So my knowledge from the US is not exactly purely academic, nor do I think the average american is any less or more stupid/intelligent then any other people.

My point basicly was that the US is much more nationalcentric then other nations, for whatever reasons. If that is better, worse or just different I let others to decide. But it should help explain why some ppl develop such a pet peeve against shows other folks appear to have no problem with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1
Absolutly agree with you. Nothing more to add

DuxCorvan
12-08-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Imagine yourself a child to young teen...You watch the show with "ubi-"that guy"" detailed explinations, logic and charts.....and in roughly 60 seconds you're playing nintendo.....

In contrast lets say they do as they are, more sensational then fact, "go OUR team go!" easy to understand and in short order the show is over and you can't wait for next week!

Well, though no doubt for their ratings, I say so what, as a child was just turned onto WWII aircombat before it is totally forgotten by this generation......In time as his interest grows, he'll spout his "incorrect" facts and get shot down like the 109 in the clip, and if having enough of the right stuff....Will go look it up to find out the truth......The legacy is passed on.

I don't believe in the dumbed-down-for-kids approach as a way of raising interest for something. I've seen it in my own field of interest -non-contemporary music- and there are lots of programs, products and media intended to introduce children in the liking for Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi, etc. thru 'encores', highlights and easy-listening pieces that form the bulk of classical music sales for the medium citizen who just want to 'relax', but gives a cr*p about classical music real interests and facts.

That strategy *fails*. The pressure of the music favored by the mass media and socially accepted is too high, and *real* classical music -which needs dedication, study and patience to be fully appreciated- can never compete successfully against music that is made to be immediately understood and instinctively assimilated by people who has been trained from the cradle to do so. Children never get past those ready-to-like encores to deeper stuff. The only people that do that are either children who listen to the real stuff since babies because their parents are real aficionados or professionals,
or because they get interested by their own inner impulse later in their lives -my case.

'Introductory' stuff for children is a waste of time, if their ambient does not favor it. They're just learning the wrong thing, and consuming show business, IMHO.


So in the end, seems to work out for everyone except DuxCorvan who is no doubt watching "teenage enema nurses in nunnery bondage" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually, I was watching "Spermwhite and the seven gang-bangsters" in glorious 16:9. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wepps
12-08-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Right. And I dare to say this in large parts is also the reason why many many (but certainly not all) people having seen such shows but have never really or only on the basic prejudies caused by said series done any reasearch, come to games like IL2 expecting their crates to be so superiour. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What made the P-51 and P-38 machines great...is that they went all the way to the targets. This forced the Luftwaffe to deal with them even if they didn't want to.

They didn't have to be good in a dogfight, but they were more than adequate. And to that end, we have always been grateful to Rolls Royce.

The problem isn't that the P-51 was a worse fighter than say a 109. The problem was those 109s were coming up to meet the bombers after long trips up, carrying way too much ordinance than what they were designed for.

The P-51 was a lady. Granted, she was a 6'0 tall 200 pound tomboy, but a lady nevertheless, with passions that needed addressing.



....sorry, I need to make a phone call now.

RegRag1977
12-08-2007, 03:40 PM
Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi

...are no longer necessary since we are no longer human beings, but in the other hand we have the freedom to consume, nothing is perfect....

[quote]the medium citizen who just want to 'relax'[quote]

...rules.

Anything beautiful that

[quote]needs dedication, study and patience to be fully appreciated[quote]

is a pure waste of time since we do know that there is nothing above us, and since we know that there is nothing else other than the direct immediacy we are living in...Come on be "realist"...

[quote]
The pressure of the music favored by the mass media and socially accepted...[quote]

will finally win in the end.



But i'm glad that there are still guys like you: i warn you Dux you're belonging to a sort of man in way of extinction, like a dinosaur, even if we still can say, but for the moment only, ecce homo Dux Corvan!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Yeah, i guess Nietzsche was right when he said two centuries ago "Desert is growing"

Bewolf
12-08-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Right. And I dare to say this in large parts is also the reason why many many (but certainly not all) people having seen such shows but have never really or only on the basic prejudies caused by said series done any reasearch, come to games like IL2 expecting their crates to be so superiour. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What made the P-51 and P-38 machines great...is that they went all the way to the targets. This forced the Luftwaffe to deal with them even if they didn't want to.

They didn't have to be good in a dogfight, but they were more than adequate. And to that end, we have always been grateful to Rolls Royce.

The problem isn't that the P-51 was a worse fighter than say a 109. The problem was those 109s were coming up to meet the bombers after long trips up, carrying way too much ordinance than what they were designed for.

The P-51 was a lady. Granted, she was a 6'0 tall 200 pound tomboy, but a lady nevertheless, with passions that needed addressing.



....sorry, I need to make a phone call now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

by no way was that directed at you wepps, but generally at the percieved problem of these shows beeing less harmless in subtle prejudices then assumed.

Waldo.Pepper
12-08-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
"teenage enema nurses in nunnery bondage"

I know that I should at least try and keep it on topic - and perhaps I should be punished somehow for digressing so, but this remark deserves a reply.

There is in fact a song called - "Teenage Enema Nurse in bondage." by the band Killer *****.

=

As for the Dogfights show - I hate it. But still I also never miss watching it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
12-08-2007, 07:50 PM
Just watched 2 45 minute long each dogfight programs (on YouTube) on the Israeli Air Force. Yes, it's not the most complex or detailed show, but hey it's good fun watching dogfights, and it's great to hear from pilots I would have otherwise never have heard of, like the top scoring jet ace, Israeli Giora Epstein.

So for that it gets a thumbs up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WWSensei
12-08-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Just watched 2 45 minute long each dogfight programs (on YouTube) on the Israeli Air Force. Yes, it's not the most complex or detailed show, but hey it's good fun watching dogfights, and it's great to hear from pilots I would have otherwise never have heard of, like the top scoring jet ace, Israeli Giora Epstein.

So for that it gets a thumbs up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

1st episode of last season was dedicated to the IAF and featured Epstein and his exploits.

2nd episode was dedicated to Luftwaffe pilots intercepting American bombers. Featured the "Luftwaffe Kamikazis".

Approximately 20% of the episodes have been from the point of view of other nations than the US. Something that is routinely left out of these "debates".

Wepps
12-08-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Right. And I dare to say this in large parts is also the reason why many many (but certainly not all) people having seen such shows but have never really or only on the basic prejudies caused by said series done any reasearch, come to games like IL2 expecting their crates to be so superiour. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What made the P-51 and P-38 machines great...is that they went all the way to the targets. This forced the Luftwaffe to deal with them even if they didn't want to.

They didn't have to be good in a dogfight, but they were more than adequate. And to that end, we have always been grateful to Rolls Royce.

The problem isn't that the P-51 was a worse fighter than say a 109. The problem was those 109s were coming up to meet the bombers after long trips up, carrying way too much ordinance than what they were designed for.

The P-51 was a lady. Granted, she was a 6'0 tall 200 pound tomboy, but a lady nevertheless, with passions that needed addressing.



....sorry, I need to make a phone call now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

by no way was that directed at you wepps, but generally at the percieved problem of these shows beeing less harmless in subtle prejudices then assumed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But really, who cares?

Let's face it. History or Discovery Channels, an American thingamabob. Britain can do their own if they want to concentrate on British issues exclusively.

America is America, we have different views on things because our experiences are different than yours. I don't see any reason to have to make some kind of politically correct statement in everything we do just to appease everyone else on earth.

I was upset before, and I'll tell you why...I'm sick and tired of hearing it. You guys...go right ahead and do what you want. We wouldn't say a word if you showed a program about how Monty won the war and never mentioned us. I honestly don't think there is a single person in the US that would lose sleep over it.

Let's just forget the whole thing, it's a non-issue.

SeaFireLIV
12-09-2007, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:


2nd episode was dedicated to Luftwaffe pilots intercepting American bombers. Featured the "Luftwaffe Kamikazis".

Approximately 20% of the episodes have been from the point of view of other nations than the US. Something that is routinely left out of these "debates".

Now why didn`t anyone say this earlier?

Bewolf
12-09-2007, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:

But really, who cares?

Let's face it. History or Discovery Channels, an American thingamabob. Britain can do their own if they want to concentrate on British issues exclusively.

America is America, we have different views on things because our experiences are different than yours. I don't see any reason to have to make some kind of politically correct statement in everything we do just to appease everyone else on earth.

I was upset before, and I'll tell you why...I'm sick and tired of hearing it. You guys...go right ahead and do what you want. We wouldn't say a word if you showed a program about how Monty won the war and never mentioned us. I honestly don't think there is a single person in the US that would lose sleep over it.

Let's just forget the whole thing, it's a non-issue.


Korolev stepped out of line. Some people reacted to his rant, trying to explain the reasons for their personal pet peeves in a reasonable manner. Nothing more, nothing less.

Rammjaeger
12-09-2007, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
But really, who cares?

Let's face it. History or Discovery Channels, an American thingamabob. Britain can do their own if they want to concentrate on British issues exclusively.


I'm pretty sure they actually do. In fact, I'm also pretty sure the Soviets/Russians, Australians etc. have also been producing their share of triumphalist documentaries, novels etc. ever since the war ended. It's only that they don't get as much publicity as the "Dogfights" series.

But you have to admit, this specific segment is so comically over-the-top in its inaccuare portrayal of events. If there was a Russian documentary showing some similar stuff, I'm sure Western forum members would be bringing it up here, posting links, making fun of it in 30-page-long threads.

What I find really funny about such WW2 documentaries as the "Dogfights" is that they go SO far in their glorification of their own servicemen. I've watched some episodes of "Dogfights" and they usually concentrate on examples of air combat where some American fighters happened to be outnumbered. I've seen similar techniques in British documentaries as well. Apparently they are comfortable with the notion that they were somehow outnumbered by the Germans in the air throughout the war and yet still managed to win because they were so damn great.

Why can't they just say "Hell yeah, we beat the Huns because we had numerical superiority and more reserves"? Would it somehow seem less glorious?

HotelBushranger
12-09-2007, 06:35 AM
Of course it would be less glorious, everybody loves the romantic story of a come from behind, underdog winning story.

DuxCorvan
12-09-2007, 07:07 AM
Take it as the 'Rocky' movie series. We all know Sylvester always win in the end, but yet they have to keep him losing right almost to the end, being punished by an arrogant and apparently superior enemy, just to make a 'surprising' final move that gives him victory when everything seemed lost.

We've seen the same action plot trick in almost every Hollywood movie of the last 40 years, since 'Rocky' to 'Gladiator' and 'LOTR', the epic David-vs-Goliath story proves exciting and appealing still, even if completely predictable.

Since recent times documentaries have also tied their rook to the horses of show business -Dr. Zahi Hawass, Bob Brier, anyone?- so it's not surprising that they choose the same sauce to make their dishes tasty.

As for the IAF and 'Luftwaffe kamikaze' episodes, though refreshing, were quite in the same light as ever: the former just showed how bad the Arabs were -'bads' and 'goods' simple stories are easily translatable to traditional allies and their nemesis- and the latter was to show how the late war Germans were desperate and simply crazy -which may be partly true.

'Dogfights' is a quite biased series, which relies on very simplistic terms and feelings, commits numberless factual errors and constitutes mostly a mere vehicle for basic entertainment. Mmmm, at least it is not as bad as '300' in all those points.

But, we shouldn't despise its merits. At least, it 'touches' a topic that is very rarely included in the documentary attention. It can be better, that's true, but at least they've done 'something'. The criticism it has raised may lead someone to do it better next time.

And I rather watch 'Dogfights' than those stupid 'Monster Garage' and similar brainless Discovery Channel things.

Wepps
12-09-2007, 07:12 AM
Air superiority was a localized thing. So if the entire Luftwaffe was destroyed except 1 staffel, and those 12 aircraft happened upon 4 P-51s, then yeah they were outnumbered.

Also remember why the Luftwaffe was in such a poor state at the time. It didn't just happen, we made it happen.

And let's get down to it...

I. The Luftwaffe was not designed to fight as an independent force. It was designed to work in cooperation with the other military arms to achieve quick and decisive victories, to avoid wars of attrition.

Because of this, when Germany switched production almost entirely to fighters for defense, it was pretty much over. No matter how many they built the Luftwaffe itself as an organization was going back to square one, learning an entirely separate doctrine than had carried since the end of WWI.

Without the Luftwaffe achieving local air superiority over the troops and using that advantage to deliver ground support, the whole deal was lost. Without it, Russian artillery superiority won the day. Without it, Wacht am Rhine could not be a victory.

II. That came about by American daylight bombing. But not only this, the daylight bombing campaign WAS a war of attrition. Germany was incapable of fighting one due to resource limitations and manpower limitations and also in this case, training method.

So Germany was stuck in a two front attrition war in late '43 and early '44. One in Russia, the other in the skies over Germany. Their resources divided greatly, it was only a matter of time.

III. Once the Allies gained air superiority, they used it to gain air supremacy -tearing up the airfields, communications, rails, everything associated with the Luftwaffe in such great numbers they couldn't be effectively countered.

At this stage of the game Luftwaffe pilots were dropping like flies. Those can't be simply manufactured. So even if the Luftwaffe always technically had enough aircraft, they were lacking people to fly them and safe airfields to effectively intercept.



Still, it was the moment that Germany went defensive in the air where the war was won. From then on out, the Luftwaffe ceased to be a cooperative force allowing great freedom on the battlefield, and became an independent force, with poor doctrine and lack of experience in that area, fighting for its survival.

Clipper_51
12-09-2007, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Even if you are a Patriotic American, this show negates the whole challenge that these pilots went through. By making the enemy look easy and full of mistakes, not challenging, I can see an elementary school student not understanding what these men and women really went through, this show makes WWII look like a turkey shoot.

Right. And I dare to say this in large parts is also the reason why many many (but certainly not all) people having seen such shows but have never really or only on the basic prejudies caused by said series done any reasearch, come to games like IL2 expecting their crates to be so superiour. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What made the P-51 and P-38 machines great...is that they went all the way to the targets. This forced the Luftwaffe to deal with them even if they didn't want to.

They didn't have to be good in a dogfight, but they were more than adequate. And to that end, we have always been grateful to Rolls Royce.

The problem isn't that the P-51 was a worse fighter than say a 109. The problem was those 109s were coming up to meet the bombers after long trips up, carrying way too much ordinance than what they were designed for.

The P-51 was a lady. Granted, she was a 6'0 tall 200 pound tomboy, but a lady nevertheless, with passions that needed addressing.



....sorry, I need to make a phone call now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

by no way was that directed at you wepps, but generally at the percieved problem of these shows beeing less harmless in subtle prejudices then assumed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But really, who cares?

Let's face it. History or Discovery Channels, an American thingamabob. Britain can do their own if they want to concentrate on British issues exclusively.

America is America, we have different views on things because our experiences are different than yours. I don't see any reason to have to make some kind of politically correct statement in everything we do just to appease everyone else on earth.

I was upset before, and I'll tell you why...I'm sick and tired of hearing it. You guys...go right ahead and do what you want. We wouldn't say a word if you showed a program about how Monty won the war and never mentioned us. I honestly don't think there is a single person in the US that would lose sleep over it.

Let's just forget the whole thing, it's a non-issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 bunch of marys

buzzsaw1939
12-09-2007, 07:19 AM
I agree 100% Dux!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Feathered_IV
12-09-2007, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:


What I find really funny about such WW2 documentaries as the "Dogfights" is that they go SO far in their glorification of their own servicemen.
I've watched some episodes of "Dogfights" and they usually concentrate on examples of air combat where some American fighters happened to be outnumbered. I've seen similar techniques in British documentaries as well.

I guess it is a symptom of the backs-to-the-wall mindset that has arisen since the September eleven attack. There is a common theme in action movies and the like since then, of the hero being beset on all sides by evil baddies. Winning through against sheer force of numbers etc. It is in stark contrast to the action-hero of the eighties and nineties. That Schwartzenager type of FTW attitude towards all enemies. These days, the comical 'character' villian has been replaced by shadowy hordes and storylines all read like variations of Rorke's Drift.

LEBillfish
12-09-2007, 07:27 AM
To be frank, as it is clear from many of the posts....You're seeing bias because you're looking for it being so biased yourselves wanting to justify your own.

This group is trying to put a show together of which its focus element is CGI.....Secondly interviews, lastly a few technical facts.....It's only natural to interview those closest and easiest to understand and make happen first....Also, int the U.S., U.S. history is best known, just like German in Germany, English in England, France's in France.....SO what do you find so surprising that the easiest, least expenssive and most assured route of finding interviews would be anything other then U.S.?

Everyone does exactly the same thing.....It's not bias.......It's simply S.O.P...

To state anothers bias, start making nationalistic accusations only stating your own.

Good lord people, it's a TV show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Wepps
12-09-2007, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
To be frank, as it is clear from many of the posts....You're seeing bias because you're looking for it being so biased yourselves wanting to justify your own.

This group is trying to put a show together of which its focus element is CGI.....Secondly interviews, lastly a few technical facts.....It's only natural to interview those closest and easiest to understand and make happen first....Also, int the U.S., U.S. history is best known, just like German in Germany, English in England, France's in France.....SO what do you find so surprising that the easiest, least expenssive and most assured route of finding interviews would be anything other then U.S.?

Everyone does exactly the same thing.....It's not bias.......It's simply S.O.P...

To state anothers bias, start making nationalistic accusations only stating your own.

Good lord people, it's a TV show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And furthermore, one designed for the average person to watch - if you are looking to learn something. It's not for the learning curve of the 'expert' in the field. The expert would instead watch it and think, "soooo, the German pilot just kept going straight while the guy barrel rolled?" To the expert its beer and peanuts time.

Tator_Totts
12-09-2007, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
To be frank, as it is clear from many of the posts....You're seeing bias because you're looking for it being so biased yourselves wanting to justify your own.

This group is trying to put a show together of which its focus element is CGI.....Secondly interviews, lastly a few technical facts.....It's only natural to interview those closest and easiest to understand and make happen first....Also, int the U.S., U.S. history is best known, just like German in Germany, English in England, France's in France.....SO what do you find so surprising that the easiest, least expenssive and most assured route of finding interviews would be anything other then U.S.?

Everyone does exactly the same thing.....It's not bias.......It's simply S.O.P...

To state anothers bias, start making nationalistic accusations only stating your own.

Good lord people, it's a TV show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Breeze147
12-10-2007, 05:59 AM
Just then, a stiff Breeze walked into The Suckling Elephant and took a stool at the bar. The bar maid eyed him warily, as she could tell by his cocky demeanor he was a bloody Yank.

"I'll have a pint of Old Hogfartz", he practically snarled, "And an order of bangers and mash with peas on the side".

The barmaid smiled wickedly, stifling a laugh. She knew this was a prelude to a night of wild sex with the Yank stranger.

Breeze turned to the Pub gathering. Old men in tweed smoking what smelled like dirty socks in filthy old pipes, drinking pints of the local cheap ale.

"I was flying a P-51 over Austria. I looked down and 64 Focke-Wolfs were flying in a perfect box formation."

"Balderdash". "Hogwash". "Blimey" "Bollocks" shouted the old Brits, a cacophony of blind hate.

He turned back to the Emily, the barmaid. 19 and ripe with extraordinarily fine looking cleavage. He chortled at the thought that while he was shagging this young beauty, the old washed up Brits would still be debating about how the second row of F-W's could not have shot over the first row.

Rammjaeger
12-10-2007, 07:35 AM
The notion described in that segment remains bulls--- regardless of the number jokes and witticisms posted here.

I have to confess though that I find the soundtracks in the "Dogfights" serious pretty good, although cheesy at times.

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
To be frank, as it is clear from many of the posts....You're seeing bias because you're looking for it being so biased yourselves wanting to justify your own.

This group is trying to put a show together of which its focus element is CGI.....Secondly interviews, lastly a few technical facts.....It's only natural to interview those closest and easiest to understand and make happen first....Also, int the U.S., U.S. history is best known, just like German in Germany, English in England, France's in France.....SO what do you find so surprising that the easiest, least expenssive and most assured route of finding interviews would be anything other then U.S.?

Everyone does exactly the same thing.....It's not bias.......It's simply S.O.P...

To state anothers bias, start making nationalistic accusations only stating your own.

Good lord people, it's a TV show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And furthermore, one designed for the average person to watch - if you are looking to learn something. It's not for the learning curve of the 'expert' in the field. The expert would instead watch it and think, "soooo, the German pilot just kept going straight while the guy barrel rolled?" To the expert its beer and peanuts time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thereign lies the whole problem.
The show is a typical example of modern media making unqualified opinions a matter of public attention.

roybaty
12-10-2007, 08:06 AM
We (the U.S.) spanked everyone from mid war on because we had more material, plenty of fuel, we rotated veteran pilots back home to train new recruits, and our war production facilities were untouchable.

Not to mention The Russians similarly had plenty of fuel, material, men, and untouchable production as well. I admit I don't know much about WWII pilot training in Russia, but it seemed along the same lines as the infantry, overwhelming numbers, little training.

Germans had dwindling resources, factories were being leveled everyday, and veteran pilots were dying everyday, replaced by ill trained recruits. Same with late war Japan.

Wepps
12-10-2007, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
To be frank, as it is clear from many of the posts....You're seeing bias because you're looking for it being so biased yourselves wanting to justify your own.

This group is trying to put a show together of which its focus element is CGI.....Secondly interviews, lastly a few technical facts.....It's only natural to interview those closest and easiest to understand and make happen first....Also, int the U.S., U.S. history is best known, just like German in Germany, English in England, France's in France.....SO what do you find so surprising that the easiest, least expenssive and most assured route of finding interviews would be anything other then U.S.?

Everyone does exactly the same thing.....It's not bias.......It's simply S.O.P...

To state anothers bias, start making nationalistic accusations only stating your own.

Good lord people, it's a TV show http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

And furthermore, one designed for the average person to watch - if you are looking to learn something. It's not for the learning curve of the 'expert' in the field. The expert would instead watch it and think, "soooo, the German pilot just kept going straight while the guy barrel rolled?" To the expert its beer and peanuts time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thereign lies the whole problem.
The show is a typical example of modern media making unqualified opinions a matter of public attention. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But in all things Air War, it always came down to the opinions of the pilot in question. Their experiences are what they proceeded on, not the opinions of the general public.

I don't see how a show based upon the facts of a particular engagement as given by the involved pilots can suddenly say "no, we believe it was this way instead."

Well, if you don't like it, don't watch it. Remote control! One of the great forces in the universe.

I want to add, the problem isn't in the television show, it's in your own perceptions of it. It's just like the game whiners in this regard. Game is released and is a different vision than the whiner in question thinks, and therefore the sweeping generalization resides with the whiner: "This game is unbalanced, nerf the Soviets/Germans/Night Elves/Trolls"

Get over it really.

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 10:54 AM
Get over what Wepps?

First mistake of yours:
You fail to see that there is a difference between the interviews in the dogfights series and the conclusive narrative in wich they are placed.
The latter has serious flaws concerning both the facts they present as real and the way of the presentation.

Second mistake of yours:
You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of critizism.
"You don't like it - just pretend it isn't there".
Do you seriously want to discuss the nonsense this statement is here?

Third mistake of yours:
You presume that I ( beeing one of those arrogant and hypocritical Europeans you hate so much ) made the above comment to critizise the dogfights show and it's flagwaving nature.
I'm not.
The context of the discussion has long left the show itself; it's about facts presented to an audience wich has no reference to contrast these facts objectivly against.

leitmotiv
12-10-2007, 11:07 AM
"Dogfights" is vapid, Zeitgeist slop with pretty CGI, and a light sprinkling of interviews and history. It is intended to appeal to the vast "warbird" audience in the world, not to specialists. I can't bear to watch it. I don't even rate it a passable surfing stop. It's not a documentary series, it is entertainment. One episode was interesting to me. The one on Operation Elbe. I was astonished by the sheer crazy bravery of the 109 crash pilots. That some survived the crashes was astounding.

Breeze147
12-10-2007, 11:16 AM
We should stop sending our shows to the UK. They can go back to Benny Hill reruns and shows about servants.

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 11:18 AM
Problem is that "you" ( whoever that you is ) make the hard money selling shows to Europe.

Breeze147
12-10-2007, 11:22 AM
I often wish FDR had let the Axis have their way.

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 11:26 AM
Why's that?

Breeze147
12-10-2007, 11:43 AM
http://www.history.com/minisites/dogfights/

Wepps
12-10-2007, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Get over what Wepps?

First mistake of yours:
You fail to see that there is a difference between the interviews in the dogfights series and the conclusive narrative in wich they are placed.
The latter has serious flaws concerning both the facts they present as real and the way of the presentation.

Second mistake of yours:
You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of critizism.
"You don't like it - just pretend it isn't there".
Do you seriously want to discuss the nonsense this statement is here?

Third mistake of yours:
You presume that I ( beeing one of those arrogant and hypocritical Europeans you hate so much ) made the above comment to critizise the dogfights show and it's flagwaving nature.
I'm not.
The context of the discussion has long left the show itself; it's about facts presented to an audience wich has no reference to contrast these facts objectivly against.

The point is whining about it here gets nothing at all accomplished.

Nothing.

HuninMunin
12-10-2007, 12:26 PM
We agree on that.
But for me this forum's purpose is an exchange of opinion and information.
And I just voiced my opinion.

Freelancer-1
12-10-2007, 01:18 PM
Studio Exec:

"We need to come up with something that advertisers while pay to put commercials on."

Idea Man:

"How about a CGI dogfight show? Lots of flash!!"

Exec:

"No one wants to sit through all that history sh*t"

Idea Man:

"Won't be any. Just lots of flash. The American consumer will love it. Ad slots will be a premium price on this one!"

Exec:

"Do it!"


End of story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

leitmotiv
12-10-2007, 01:28 PM
Say no more, heh heh.

DuxCorvan
12-10-2007, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
They can go back to Benny Hill reruns.

Hey, the Benny Hill title music would make a nice soundtrack for the 190-box scene in 'Dogfights'...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuiA2j52rP8

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Phas3e
12-10-2007, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
I often wish FDR had let the Axis have their way.

I often wish Washingtons canoe had sunk after reading most of your posts

buddye1
12-10-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Studio Exec:

"We need to come up with something that advertisers while pay to put commercials on."

Idea Man:

"How about a CGI dogfight show? Lots of flash!!"

Exec:

"No one wants to sit through all that history sh*t"

Idea Man:

"Won't be any. Just lots of flash. The American consumer will love it. Ad slots will be a premium price on this one!"

Exec:

"Do it!"


End of story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That is exactly the thought process of TV Exec and managers behind the implementation of a TV series (it all about the money), IMHO.

It is after all a business with a profit driver.

Schwarz.13
12-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
http://www.history.com/minisites/dogfights/

I'll bet the .50s aren't porked in THAT game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Hey, the Benny Hill title music would make a nice soundtrack for the 190-box scene in 'Dogfights'...

+1

Korolov1986
12-10-2007, 06:08 PM
The mere fact that so many of you get wrapped around the axle about this stupid show just proves my original point. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Those of you who say it's all about the commercials - you got it spot on. It's ALL about making money, and your average TV viewer doesn't give a damn about historical accuracy, and you can't make him/her give a damn. I doubt many people outside the US even give a damn either!!!

Frankly, those propaganda screams and conspiracy theories are just way out there. Hence the amazing part - most of you here know far more than the average viewer about this stuff, and then you come off and believe the TV show is a bunch of propaganda and nationalistic bull? Sure, sidestep the most simple answer - it makes somebody, somewhere, some dough. It can't possibly be such simple thing, no sir. It has got to be some kind of evil conspiracy!!!

FYI, I don't watch the show much at all. I caught the "P-51" episode last week, that was it. The only part worth watching was the interviews.



I'll bet the .50s aren't porked in THAT game!


Hell, in the video of that game, a Hellcat killed a destroyer simply by ramming it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The A6M's 7.7mms also caused another plane to instantly explode, too. Suffice to say, the game is another part of their meal ticket.

RegRag1977
12-10-2007, 07:17 PM
The good part of it is that whiners will have an alternative!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Rammjaeger
12-11-2007, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Those of you who say it's all about the commercials - you got it spot on. It's ALL about making money, and your average TV viewer doesn't give a damn about historical accuracy, and you can't make him/her give a damn. I doubt many people outside the US even give a damn either!!!


Let's suppose there was a German documentary series totally similar to "Dogfights", 95% of the interviews conducted with Luftwaffe veterans, the whole stuff generally describing their heroic deeds against numerically superior Allies. It would contain tons of historical inaccuracies, like showing square-shaped tight formations of B-17s getting blasted by German fighters etc.

The narration would usually be cheesy - "huge formations of Allied bombers appeared over our Fatherland and our valiant and outnumbered pilots rose to stop them" etc.

There would be no mention of German war crimes, Holocaust etc.

Would you be saying that it's "biased, grossly inaccurate, nefarious nationalistic propaganda" instead of saying "it's just an attempt to make money through entertainment, people don't care about historical accuracy anyway"? I think yes.

pogobbler
12-11-2007, 11:54 AM
>>>Let's suppose there was a German documentary series totally similar to "Dogfights", 95% of the interviews conducted with Luftwaffe veterans, the whole stuff generally describing their heroic deeds against numerically superior Allies. It would contain tons of historical inaccuracies, like showing square-shaped tight formations of B-17s getting blasted by German fighters etc.

The narration would usually be cheesy - "huge formations of Allied bombers appeared over our Fatherland and our valiant and outnumbered <pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre> pilots rose to stop them" etc.

There would be no mention of German war crimes, Holocaust etc.

Would you be saying that it's "biased, grossly inaccurate, nefarious nationalistic propaganda" instead of saying "it's just an attempt to make money through entertainment, people don't care about historical accuracy anyway"? I think yes.>>>>

I haven't entered this fray yet, but, speaking for myself (and I do live in and was born in the USA), I might groan a bit at the language, but, overall, I'd welcome a decent program of that nature from another side in the war, whether it was German, Russian, British, Australian, Japanese or any other of the numerous possibilities. I think it would be good if programs like "Dogfights" had more breadth (including nationalities of pilots covered-- though, myself, I'd be perfectly happy if they confined themselves to WW2, though other conflicts to have their interesting points to cover), and attention to detail, but it's better than those innumerable other shows depicting dogfights--- oh, wait, there really aren't any others that do it regularly, are there? I would, though, welcome all sorts of different takes on the basic concept from other countries or focusing on the pilots experiences from other countries. If you're in one of those "other countries" get working in television production and start making them, okay? I'd love to see them regardless of any "bias".

As to Americans being more "nationalistic", it's probably true but not really due to, in my view, ignorance or selfishness or whatever else you might call it... I think it's largely a simple fact of geography. Several times in the past few years, I've driven to see a friend. I drove for 10 hours east and ended up not going across even one third of the breadth of the country. How many places in Europe could you drive that long and remain well within the confines of the same country you started out in? Yes, it's possible, I'm sure, but you see my point? We, over here, are much more isolated geographically and don't have the same sort of colonial ties that some other geographically isolated countries have. If the individual states were different countries with, sometimes, different languages, I'd bet that there would be quite a difference in regards to "nationalism". Of course, the different histories of the US and Europe as regards nationalism count, too. I find it hard to say that one view is "better" than other, just that they're different.

Rammjaeger
12-11-2007, 11:01 PM
I didn't say Americans are nationalist. The observation that "Dogfights" is just another attempt at making money through historically inaccurate entertainment is by and large correct. However, the people saying this should ask themselves whether they would have the same "lenient" approach if there was a 100% similar documentary series produced in a different country.

LEBillfish
12-11-2007, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
However, the people saying this should ask themselves whether they would have the same "lenient" approach if there was a 100% similar documentary series produced in a different country.


we do....often....as that is how it is. Not known a "nationality" that has cornered the market on honesty and truth. A number of individuals yes, right up till they start being patriotic or nationalistic.

carguy_
12-12-2007, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
Let's suppose there was a German documentary series totally similar to "Dogfights", 95% of the interviews conducted with Luftwaffe veterans, the whole stuff generally describing their heroic deeds against numerically superior Allies.(...)
The narration would usually be cheesy - "huge formations of Allied bombers appeared over our Fatherland and our valiant and outnumbered pilots rose to stop them" etc.


I can see it now :


"The top scoring ace of Staffel II JG300 Hans Joerg takes his nimble but powerfully armed Messerschmitt airborne along with 50 other highly trained pilots to intercept the Liberator formations hell bent on destroying every German town left intact.
They arrive just in time, at a point of 300km before the American formation reaches the town.

Now, Hans Joerg is here, hell bent 200 Liberators of 8th AF are there.

Hans orders half of his pilots to stay above the formation while he goes to attack.His Messerschmitt is armed with the powerful Machinenkanone MK108.It tears the "big boys" to shreds with just two hits.The airplane however, is still able to battle any American fighter plane that comes with cover.

Closely with the bombers, come the P51 Mustangs, best American fighters of all time.They are faster, but are not a match for the light and very well maneuverable horizontally Me109s.
It looks like Hans is in trouble.He and his mates must oppose overall of 350 American planes in their fight for The Fatherland.

(...)

Hans is now jumped by 3 Mustangs.He feels death coming on him closely.Those Mustang pilots are very aggressive.He screams for help through the radio but others are also outnumbered by at least 2 to 1.
He dives to low altitude of 4000m where he can fight the Pony`s.
He then begins his expert high G horizontal turn.He rolls over the unexpecting P51s and immediately shoots the last in row with his 30mm cannon.The plane explodes.

Now Hans opposes 2 pilots.

He is here, they are here.

Now the two pilots become even more aggressive.They let their feeligs get in the way.Hans exploits the situation.Both Mustangs are now fighting him low lever in horizontal at 2200m.He quickly gains angles and shoots another Mustang with his last 3 30mm cannon shells.Mustang is cut in half.The pilot surely won`t be able to bail safely.(now a little interview on how the German pilot can`t forget the terrible view).

In the same moment Hans notices that he is left with 90L of fuel and 12mm machineguns only as armament.

He is lucky.

The American pilot chooses to run away in panic but he`s too late.He lost a lot of speed through maneuvering with his now lost wingman.
He knows he can`t get away, he tries to put Hans` aim off with defensive maneuvering.

But Hans is calm[ German pilot says "Then I knew I`d get him"].
He proceeds to position himself closely behind the P51 to make his little calibre ammo count.He hits his engine.The glassjaw Merlin bursts with fire.Hans knows it is the end and oberves the earth tremble from the crash.

3 more kills for the honorable German ace."



Now you telling me the Americans would like that?
They would friggin` flip! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Breeze147
12-12-2007, 06:42 AM
Being serious for once, the combatants see only a very, very small snippet of what is taking place.

Can anyone even begin to imagine what it would be like to be in the environment of trying to pilot a very high-strung and finicky fighter aircraft, battling the elements of cold and noise, while trying to engage others having the same problems in combat?

All of us should know by now, stories get a little better with each telling. You can't disspell everything you see on The History Channel. It's being told through the fog of 60+ years of time. Plus, remember that the writers and producers are more than likely the grandchildren generation of those the story is being told about.

Are we to completely dismiss the History Channel? Maybe we should believe Hitler was actually a jolly old chap, unfortunately caught up in bizarre politics.

WN_Barbarossa
12-12-2007, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
Let's suppose there was a German documentary series totally similar to "Dogfights", 95% of the interviews conducted with Luftwaffe veterans, the whole stuff generally describing their heroic deeds against numerically superior Allies.(...)
The narration would usually be cheesy - "huge formations of Allied bombers appeared over our Fatherland and our valiant and outnumbered pilots rose to stop them" etc.


I can see it now :


"The top scoring ace of Staffel II JG300 Hans Joerg takes his nimble but powerfully armed Messerschmitt airborne along with 50 other highly trained pilots to intercept the Liberator formations hell bent on destroying every German town left intact.
They arrive just in time, at a point of 300km before the American formation reaches the town.

Now, Hans Joerg is here, hell bent 200 Liberators of 8th AF are there.

Hans orders half of his pilots to stay above the formation while he goes to attack.His Messerschmitt is armed with the powerful Machinenkanone MK108.It tears the "big boys" to shreds with just two hits.The airplane however, is still able to battle any American fighter plane that comes with cover.

Closely with the bombers, come the P51 Mustangs, best American fighters of all time.They are faster, but are not a match for the light and very well maneuverable horizontally Me109s.
It looks like Hans is in trouble.He and his mates must oppose overall of 350 American planes in their fight for The Fatherland.

(...)

Hans is now jumped by 3 Mustangs.He feels death coming on him closely.Those Mustang pilots are very aggressive.He screams for help through the radio but others are also outnumbered by at least 2 to 1.
He dives to low altitude of 4000m where he can fight the Pony`s.
He then begins his expert high G horizontal turn.He rolls over the unexpecting P51s and immediately shoots the last in row with his 30mm cannon.The plane explodes.

Now Hans opposes 2 pilots.

He is here, they are here.

Now the two pilots become even more aggressive.They let their feeligs get in the way.Hans exploits the situation.Both Mustangs are now fighting him low lever in horizontal at 2200m.He quickly gains angles and shoots another Mustang with his last 3 30mm cannon shells.Mustang is cut in half.The pilot surely won`t be able to bail safely.(now a little interview on how the German pilot can`t forget the terrible view).

In the same moment Hans notices that he is left with 90L of fuel and 12mm machineguns only as armament.

He is lucky.

The American pilot chooses to run away in panic but he`s too late.He lost a lot of speed through maneuvering with his now lost wingman.
He knows he can`t get away, he tries to put Hans` aim off with defensive maneuvering.

But Hans is calm[ German pilot says "Then I knew I`d get him"].
He proceeds to position himself closely behind the P51 to make his little calibre ammo count.He hits his engine.The glassjaw Merlin bursts with fire.Hans knows it is the end and oberves the earth tremble from the crash.

3 more kills for the honorable German ace."



Now you telling me the Americans would like that?
They would friggin` flip! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, that post made my day happy!
But don't stick to Americans, every nation should make it's own "Dogfights series" depicting the enemy forces as pure evil:
- "the ferocius pilot of the Lancaster was determined to shed more civilian blood, but the valiant fighting eagles of the Luftwaffe were always ready to defend the innocents"
- 1967: "as the zionist opressors waged war to conquer the Middle East, a handful of brave Egyptian pilots took off to intercept the vultures of Israel"
- "April, 1982. The once mighty British Empire is about re-extend her cruel domination in the South Atlantic. But there's an obstacle in her way - the stout-hearted pilots of the Argentine Air Force"

Feel free to continue the list and make history more colourful.

Rammjaeger
12-12-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
Let's suppose there was a German documentary series totally similar to "Dogfights", 95% of the interviews conducted with Luftwaffe veterans, the whole stuff generally describing their heroic deeds against numerically superior Allies.(...)
The narration would usually be cheesy - "huge formations of Allied bombers appeared over our Fatherland and our valiant and outnumbered pilots rose to stop them" etc.


I can see it now :


"The top scoring ace of Staffel II JG300 Hans Joerg takes his nimble but powerfully armed Messerschmitt airborne along with 50 other highly trained pilots to intercept the Liberator formations hell bent on destroying every German town left intact.
They arrive just in time, at a point of 300km before the American formation reaches the town.

Now, Hans Joerg is here, hell bent 200 Liberators of 8th AF are there.

Hans orders half of his pilots to stay above the formation while he goes to attack.His Messerschmitt is armed with the powerful Machinenkanone MK108.It tears the "big boys" to shreds with just two hits.The airplane however, is still able to battle any American fighter plane that comes with cover.

Closely with the bombers, come the P51 Mustangs, best American fighters of all time.They are faster, but are not a match for the light and very well maneuverable horizontally Me109s.
It looks like Hans is in trouble.He and his mates must oppose overall of 350 American planes in their fight for The Fatherland.

(...)

Hans is now jumped by 3 Mustangs.He feels death coming on him closely.Those Mustang pilots are very aggressive.He screams for help through the radio but others are also outnumbered by at least 2 to 1.
He dives to low altitude of 4000m where he can fight the Pony`s.
He then begins his expert high G horizontal turn.He rolls over the unexpecting P51s and immediately shoots the last in row with his 30mm cannon.The plane explodes.

Now Hans opposes 2 pilots.

He is here, they are here.

Now the two pilots become even more aggressive.They let their feeligs get in the way.Hans exploits the situation.Both Mustangs are now fighting him low lever in horizontal at 2200m.He quickly gains angles and shoots another Mustang with his last 3 30mm cannon shells.Mustang is cut in half.The pilot surely won`t be able to bail safely.(now a little interview on how the German pilot can`t forget the terrible view).

In the same moment Hans notices that he is left with 90L of fuel and 12mm machineguns only as armament.

He is lucky.

The American pilot chooses to run away in panic but he`s too late.He lost a lot of speed through maneuvering with his now lost wingman.
He knows he can`t get away, he tries to put Hans` aim off with defensive maneuvering.

But Hans is calm[ German pilot says "Then I knew I`d get him"].
He proceeds to position himself closely behind the P51 to make his little calibre ammo count.He hits his engine.The glassjaw Merlin bursts with fire.Hans knows it is the end and oberves the earth tremble from the crash.

3 more kills for the honorable German ace."



Now you telling me the Americans would like that?
They would friggin` flip! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was priceless!

I can imagine further details from such a show...

"At that moment, Hans pulled the stick hard. The fast, incredibly agile Fw-190A responds sharply."

"Hans and 3 of his comrades from JG300 attacked a formation of 36 bloodthirsty P-47 Thunderbolts from above. Taken completely by surprise, the Yankee pilots dispersed in panic."

"At that moment, Hans spotted a P-51 Mustang heading towards him from left and above. Not wasting any time he immediately turned towards the attacker and bravely attempted a head-on attack. Just before he could fire an accurate burst the enemy pilot, realising the futility of facing the massive firepower of Hans' advanced Fw-190A, performed a Split-S and dived away."

"Hans attacked the unsuspecting Il-2 bombers from below. The relatively formidable armor of the bolshevik bombers was still no match for the incredible punch of the Mg 151/20 cannon..."

OR...

quotes from the Japanese version of "Dogfights":

"Colonel Yakashima and his valiant subordinates attacked the American P-51 Mustang escort fighters over Kyushu in their Ki-61s, one of the most advanced combat aircraft of its time. The Mustang, although somewhat faster at extremely high altitudes, was inferior to the Hien in terms of manoeuverability, climb rate and stability.

As these undeterred samurais of the skies swiftly got on the tail of the numerous American fighters, the Mustang pilots tried their usual trick of rolling sharply and diving away. But Colonel Yakashima pressed his attack, taking full advantage of the superior roll rate of the Hien and approached the American. The nose cannons of the Ki-61 shredded the Mustang quickly."

"Colonel Yakashima and his formation were jumped by British Spitfire Mk.VIII fighters over Burma. More than willing to accept the challenge the pilots utilised the incredibly advanced flap system of their formidable Ki-43-II fighters to enter brilliant manoeuvers and thus constantly throw off the aim of the attackers. The British pilot soon lost sight of Yakashima's plane. Yakashima approached the clumsy Spitfire from below and ripped its wing off with an accurate burst."

hi_stik
12-12-2007, 09:50 AM
nobody wants to watch a show about genocidal Nazis racking up 300 kills over ignorant peasants in biplanes over Russia, only to get burned when they finally faced a well-trained and equipped opponent over their own homeland.

Or watch genocidal flying samurai wannabes racking up 50 kills over ignorant peasants in biplanes over China, only to get massive head wounds when they finally faced a well-trained and equipped opponent over some malarial hellhole of an island...wait, people might want to see that one...

WN_Barbarossa
12-12-2007, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by hi_stik:
nobody wants to watch a show about genocidal Nazis racking up 300 kills over ignorant peasants in biplanes over Russia, only to get burned when they finally faced a well-trained and equipped opponent over their own homeland.


Gosh, I never thought Luftwaffe pilots were genocidal Nazis. Wow, amazing. But eerrmmm, could you explain me how can someone commit genocide from the cockpit of a Bf-109 with 3 MGs? We should know that in order to prevent history from repeating itself!
(and the russian pilots of WW2 who were "ignorant peasants"... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

kid_SA
12-12-2007, 11:09 AM
jeez, people are taking this to heart! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ok, I think the general problem is not the portrayal of Americans or the pilot viewpoint (any pilot cannot help to be biased unless he is actually 50 pilots, a dozen strategists, a few military analysts, a team of aero engineers and a president/fuhrer/PM all at once) but the unnecessary look at German pilots. It does not take a euro-centric anti-American hater to want a closer look at the opposition. The use of the word "bloodthirsty" is cheesy and needless. That is a valid complaint. This does not mean that everyone then also wants a complete lack of Americans in an American series, nor should the series be expected to spend 50 times it's budget for complete accuracy and perfect portrayal, but why not a quiet question to the American pilot about his opponent? Or just a standard German ace who need not have flown in the DF itself giving a little snippet every now and again about his planes or his pilot friends. It's about the attitude. The "high tech" feel. The repetition and the cute symbols, the "3D" view of planes. Like... OMG...

Nothing to do with America. Last time I checked, we were talking about a TV show.

As for the "box" formation, that sounds like it could be 8 shwarms flying welded wing, in a trailing attack. Perhaps not firing over each other, that sounds a bit hectic.

hi_stik: lol. No comment.

HuninMunin
12-12-2007, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by hi_stik:
nobody wants to watch a show about genocidal Nazis racking up 300 kills over ignorant peasants in biplanes over Russia, only to get burned when they finally faced a well-trained and equipped opponent over their own homeland.

Or watch genocidal flying samurai wannabes racking up 50 kills over ignorant peasants in biplanes over China, only to get massive head wounds when they finally faced a well-trained and equipped opponent over some malarial hellhole of an island...wait, people might want to see that one...

You are quite an educated one.
Go kiss the flag and tell your mom to keep you off the internet.

Rammjaeger
12-12-2007, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
Being serious for once, the combatants see only a very, very small snippet of what is taking place.

Can anyone even begin to imagine what it would be like to be in the environment of trying to pilot a very high-strung and finicky fighter aircraft, battling the elements of cold and noise, while trying to engage others having the same problems in combat?

All of us should know by now, stories get a little better with each telling. You can't disspell everything you see on The History Channel. It's being told through the fog of 60+ years of time. Plus, remember that the writers and producers are more than likely the grandchildren generation of those the story is being told about.

Are we to completely dismiss the History Channel? Maybe we should believe Hitler was actually a jolly old chap, unfortunately caught up in bizarre politics.

In short, there are 3 possible versions:

1. What this segment describes happened exactly the way it is described. That's pretty unlikely.

2. The American pilot has a failing memory and actually believes that the attack happened that way. Possible, but unlikely. I've seen many interviews with WW2 veterans, many of them obviously pretty old, but never heard of such nonsense before. Most of them remembered such cases of combat very well - no wonder, these were life-or-death situations.

3. History Channel interviewed the pilot, didn't bother about all the details and produced this computer animation which is loosely based on the interview but includes this ludicrous notion of a combat box which has no connection to reality. I guess that's the most likely.

What the pilot probably meant is that the Fw-190s attacked in lines - probably V-shaped formations of 4-8 aircraft - and the lines attacked in waves. That was indeed the routine tactic of the Sturmgruppen if I'm not mistaken.

I disagree with the idea that History Channel should increase budget massively to produce more realistic documentaries. NOT being totally ignorant doesn't cost more money. If there were any people in their staff who had anything resembling true knowledge of Luftwaffe tactics, such computer animations would have probably never made their way onto the TV screen.