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AussieGreen
09-24-2005, 09:04 PM
Hi guys I'd Like your Input please.
I use a Logitech extreme3D pro and have problems with the rudder not returning to centre
i have replaced my old 3d with a new one after playing with the dead zones and smooting etc. what do you guys use that is not as troublesome?

3.JG51_BigBear
09-24-2005, 10:13 PM
X-52

LEXX_Luthor
09-24-2005, 10:27 PM
goto (*yuck*) WalMarts and get the black coloured Saitek Cyborg Graphite for 20$ -- less if on sale. I got my first Graphite for 15%, and went back to get backup replacement (never needed).

This is the best and most realistic World War 2 flight sim joystick. Super large stick, largest stick buttons ever made -- only 3 super buttons at top of stick, largest throttle made for any joystick, most massive base made for any joystick, largest throw distance side to side and foward-back (6 inches - measure others in CompUSA), comes with NO software just plug in USB port and fly, never breaks (nothing to break), smooth as glass -- I think partially because its so large, controlling it is not "iffy," and the most comfortable to hold stick ever made -- I tried my hand with ALL The Others at CompUSA. Graphite is Perfect if you have large hands, but if you have small hands, it then feels like an even larger real WW2 control stick.

Best of all, if you find don't like it for some reason, or you want joystick software for sims not like FB/PF that don't natively support joysticks, or if you want a Spacecraft Sim or SuperJetFighter Sim joystick, you can get the X-54 or something equally Fancy and complex, and you only lost 20$ in a remarkable experiment in World War 2 joystick simming. Just be willing to reach out in front of you to touch WW2 instrument panel controls...er...that means your keyboard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JunkoIfurita
09-25-2005, 02:27 AM
No WalMarts in Australia, Lexx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Good point on the stick, though - for a $50 (Australian) stick, it's top dollar. I haven't seen too many of them in Harvey Norman or EB, though.

I know you can get an X-45 or an X-52 at Harvey Norman if you come at the right time. Both good Saitek sticks. The Evo force is ok, but I don't adore its action. The Thrustmaster Afterburner II is the cheapest HOTAS setup you'll get - and it's surprisingly good. However, it does fall apart after about a year of use.

If I were you, I'd keep an eye on the Aussie EBay. There's a guy on there who now and again puts up a brand new Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 stick for sale. These sticks have been discontinued, but people who have them swear by them as the best force feedback stick around.

I just got one for $135 Australian brand new - a steal!

I'm using it alongside my X-52 - I'm using the throttle normally, and the stick as a button bay. The MSFFB2 stick I'm using as my primary controller.

----

AussieGreen
09-25-2005, 06:00 AM
Saitek Cyborg Graphite
Thanks Guys i'm on the net looking, I am investigating the Cyborg and the X52.
X52 looks like i'll need a dergree to master it but love the futuristic look of it. the does the cyborg have rudder control nothing shown on the net, cyborg evo looks good any tried that.
Yup goto say the Microsoft II force feed back is a very good stick, I'm tempted by the cyborg, i have a shop around and let you know where i find then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

calius2004
09-25-2005, 06:02 AM
A good joystick isnt a broken one.

Maple_Tiger
09-25-2005, 08:10 AM
Noooooooooooo lol, not the Cyborg. It has such a cheap feel to it. I also bought a Logitec Extreme 3D Pro after I wore out my Sidewinder. The Logitec lasted about two months, and I through it in the garbage, in peaces lol.

I went to radio shack one day looking for a stick, and some of the Saiteks didn't even compare to my Sidewinder lol. I then ordered a CH fighter stick for about 175 dallars. You get tons of buttons, precise movements, and a stick that feels just right.

All I need now, is a CH rudder set up, and I'll be laughing.

VMF-Blaze_UG
09-25-2005, 09:28 AM
I have a Thrustmaster Cougar with Simped Rudder Pedals

Personally I think that if you can afford them they are an awsome combination.....

~S~

Blaze

codeseven7
09-25-2005, 10:57 AM
My Logitech Wingman Strike Force 3D had good features, control and lasted 5yrs! But I replaced it with a CH Products Fighterstick and the difference is obvious right off the bat. Solid workmanship, excellent control and a whole load of possible settings, definitely an upgrade, glad I bought it.

BFawlty
09-25-2005, 11:06 AM
I use the Top Gun Afterburner II by Thrustmaster. Kind of a low cost intro to the HOTAS world. I really like mine.

http://us.thrustmaster.com/products/d_prd.php?p=T64&fam=6

BF

Wolf-Strike
09-25-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:largest throw distance side to side and foward-back (6 inches - measure others in CompUSA)

Very Interesting!Didnt Oleg say that the best stick for FB would be one with the most throw.This way you can move closer to using 100 across the board for sensitivity settings.This makes for a more predictable onscreen movement compared to moving ones joystick.

LEXX_Luthor
09-25-2005, 05:37 PM
Thanks. In roll tests I can easily control the roll rate across the stick travel range. I got it as my first flight sim joystick when I got the FB two years ago, and I got something "cheap," since I didnt' know anything about joysticks but anything would be better than my keyboard, so I tried the most inexpensive stick I could find for starting out. When I later hand tested the more expensive "culturally normal" sticks at CompUSA I was astonished at their lack of mass, limited travel, tiny throttles, and horribly functioning stick-top buttons in comparison to my 20$ Graphite. I stuck with it. Since I got it for primitive WW2 simming, the lack of Fancy Features or extra base buttons did not bother me.

gbollin
09-25-2005, 08:24 PM
I use a combination of the X45 Throttle
and an old Thrustmaster Top Gun that is
patterned after the F4 Phantom stick.
I like it because it looks more like a WWII
Fighter stick.

FritzGryphon
09-25-2005, 08:49 PM
. The Logitec lasted about two months, and I through it in the garbage, in peaces lol.


They do have a year warranty, though. I got mine replaced on 4 occasions in that time.

Too bad it's cheap garbage; I really like that stick.

LEBillfish
09-25-2005, 09:09 PM
replaced my MS SW PP of 6 years with a Logitech Extreme 3d pro...I liked it much more then the Saitek as it feels much more solid...3-4 months now and works great....and at $35, I can replace them often without worry.

Yet in truth, I'm betting it will last much longer then the Saitek's.

MLudner
09-25-2005, 09:16 PM
I'm with 3.JG51_BigBear:
Saitek X52. Buttons galore, I hardly ever need to reach for the keyboard anymore...

missiveus
09-25-2005, 09:36 PM
I have a Thrustmaster Cougar with Simped Rudder Pedals

Personally I think that if you can afford them they are an awsome combination.....

Ditto on the Cougar. I pair it with CH Pro Pedals USB, though I've always wanted to try the Simpeds. Hard to beat the value of CH Pedals for US$ 100.00, and the TM Cougar is as solid a stick as you will find, plus there is a dedicated community behind it with some very interesting mods available. Best HOTAS set up I've ever used.

Vacillator
09-26-2005, 02:23 AM
I use X52 and CH Pro rudder pedals and TIR2. Great setup, lots of programmability and control. As for comments above on throw and sensitivity, I'm using 100% settings for pitch and roll with the X52 as anything lower doesn't feel right.

WOLFMondo
09-26-2005, 04:14 AM
CH Fighter stick and Pro pedals! I've had other joysticks before (Cyborg EVO - nice stick, M$ Sidewinder - nice too, X52 - terrible quality and returned 3 of them due to centring problems) but none of them compare to the CH products i've bought in terms of quality and build.

CH stuff is truly indestructable and very high quality. Using a stick with no twist is quite odd at first but the level of control you get with rudder pedals is far superior to a twist stick. Only problem is the cost.

RAAF_Edin
09-26-2005, 04:45 AM
Best HOTAS = Cougar

(if you can afford it)

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-26-2005, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
CH Fighter stick and Pro pedals! I've had other joysticks before (Cyborg EVO - nice stick, M$ Sidewinder - nice too, X52 - terrible quality and returned 3 of them due to centring problems) but none of them compare to the CH products i've bought in terms of quality and build.

CH stuff is truly indestructable and very high quality. Using a stick with no twist is quite odd at first but the level of control you get with rudder pedals is far superior to a twist stick. Only problem is the cost.


CH is the only recommendation I will make to anyone who flies ANY flight sim regularly. The precision, durability, functionality out of the box and the power of the Control manager software.

I've tried just about every high-end (relatively speaking) controller out there and always end up with CH in my hand.

TB

arcadeace
09-26-2005, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by AussieGreen:
Hi guys I'd Like your Input please.
I use a Logitech extreme3D pro and have problems with the rudder not returning to centre
i have replaced my old 3d with a new one after playing with the dead zones and smooting etc. what do you guys use that is not as troublesome?

I won€t recommend a stick but I will recommend against one, the Graphite, unless you plan on rudder pedals. It has no capability.

Cold_Gambler
09-26-2005, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">. The Logitec lasted about two months, and I through it in the garbage, in peaces lol.


They do have a year warranty, though. I got mine replaced on 4 occasions in that time.

Too bad it's cheap garbage; I really like that stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny... I also replaced my Logitec (FF) four times under warranty, most breaking within two months- one breaking within a week. Finally decided to get a MSFF which I've been using for 3 years (still in perfect working order, got to love the optical precision that will never wear out). Bought a back up MSFF2 when they were discontinued in case the first one ever dies... I'm starting to wonder if it will http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

zlin
09-26-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
goto (*yuck*) WalMarts and get the black coloured Saitek Cyborg Graphite for 20$ -- less if on sale. I got my first Graphite for 15%, and went back to get backup replacement (never needed).

This is the best and most realistic World War 2 flight sim joystick. Super large stick, largest stick buttons ever made -- only 3 super buttons at top of stick, largest throttle made for any joystick, most massive base made for any joystick, largest throw distance side to side and foward-back (6 inches - measure others in CompUSA), comes with NO software just plug in USB port and fly, never breaks (nothing to break), smooth as glass -- I think partially because its so large, controlling it is not "iffy," and the most comfortable to hold stick ever made -- I tried my hand with ALL The Others at CompUSA. Graphite is Perfect if you have large hands, but if you have small hands, it then feels like an even larger real WW2 control stick.

Best of all, if you find don't like it for some reason, or you want joystick software for sims not like FB/PF that don't natively support joysticks, or if you want a Spacecraft Sim or SuperJetFighter Sim joystick, you can get the X-54 or something equally Fancy and complex, and you only lost 20$ in a remarkable experiment in World War 2 joystick simming. Just be willing to reach out in front of you to touch WW2 instrument panel controls...er...that means your keyboard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Thanks LEXX_Luthor for great tip.
I didn't know about this one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
Will order one on-line for $14.95 + small shipping UPS
Here is the link:
http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/cyborg3d.html

Thanks a lot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-26-2005, 05:59 PM
That's the one....
http://store1.yimg.com/I/saitekusa_1861_6333010

The 45 degree quadrants of the hat swithches I never got to work reliably...just the major 90 degree 4-way, so for me its a 4-way hat switch. But I have always used mouseview for looking around.

For some time I used the titanic throttle for rudder, but Arcadeace is right, you will need rudder pedals to perform good air and ground target shooting. I finally got 40$ Racing Wheel pedals, and although not in the same major leagues as dedicated flight sim pedals, allowed me for the first time to consistently line up targets in air or on ground. Now I use the throttle for rudder trim, and with mousewheel for elevator trim, I am in 4.01 New FM trimming heaven. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You will find its an amazing stick for 15$, and if you ever wish a more Featured stick in terms of numerous buttons, sliders, and programming, you only lost the 15$. The Graphite comes with no software. FB/PF natively supports this, but according to Shockwave, I would have problems mapping some things of their BoB2 sim since the old Rowan code is much older than Oleg's.

Tip:: You know those little clear plastic stick "pads" that you stick on the bottom of things you don't want sliding around, usually round and half hemispherical? Place one on each of the giant buttons, and your thumb will glide effortlessly off the hat switch onto the pads. The effect is making the thumb travel shorter and effortless. Should work for any joystick.

LEXX_Luthor
09-26-2005, 06:13 PM
Interesting...
4-way hat switch

~ http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/cygr2us.html

My Graphite hat switch has tiny tick marks at 45 degrees, and when I tried using it as 8-way for view control, I could tell it was trying to work but the 45 degree switches did not work reliably (were being mixed with the 90 degree switches until I disabled them in FB game menu).

So the description is effectively correct...4-way hat switch, unless you can get the other 4 working better than I could.

btw...another thing, its a HUGE hat switch, tall and pointy and not flat, and I found it easier to work (as 4-way) then the other sticks' hats.

Grey_Mouser67
09-26-2005, 06:55 PM
@ Lexx or anyone else...I have an X-45 now after graduating from a logtech myself but I find the feel of the stick and throw to be unsatisfactory....

Is there a way to keep my X-45 and add another stick like the Cyborg? I have trim and flap controls at my finger tips so I don't want to lose them...Money is not a restrainer for me so I am considering a CH or Couger but I've heard that the rudder pedals aren't all they cracked up to be and I don't want to waste money either....for 20 bucks, I'd be willing to try the cyborg!

LEXX_Luthor
09-26-2005, 07:01 PM
mmm....I tried plugging in my backup Graphite alongside my first one, but only one seemed to be recognized. Realize I have no idea what I am doing. Identical game controllers just may not work together, especially if they come with no software (like Graphite). Another device different from Graphite may work. I mean, my Racing Wheel pedals work alonside my Graphite, and I never bothered to insatll the Racing Wheel software. I am not a deep gaming controller guru.

ashley2005
09-26-2005, 07:32 PM
ya best hotas is couger ..but if you cant afford then go for the X 52...its a beast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

zlin
09-27-2005, 05:43 AM
Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Quote:

Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
You will find its an amazing stick for 15$, and if you ever wish a more Featured stick in terms of numerous buttons, sliders, and programming, you only lost the 15$.



My new Logitech Wingman Force 3D did start acting up just month after decent using. First this twisty thing for rudder, then pitch and can no longer configure software the way it should be because the configuration cross is constantly shaking and wildly moving http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
It is highly unlikely that I'm going to open this stick and try to fix it. Even when I disable force feedback shaking continue. Only cure is to disconnect AC adapter from power, but then it definitely suck.


I completely agree with you LEXX that $15 stick is worth trying.
Sorry for grammar, kind a hurry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-28-2005, 03:53 PM
Let us know how it works for you.

zlin
09-29-2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Let us know how it works for you.

Sure I will http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

horseback
09-29-2005, 11:48 AM
I must put in my 2 cents' worth--CH Products' CombatStick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals are the absolute shnizzle, especially in conjunction with TrackIR3. I've had mine for two plus years of hard regular use without a single glitch, and smooth, reliable consistant performance throughout.

However, that solution is reserved for those who can cough up the $400+ US necessary (I put it together by starting with the Pedals, used with the MS Sidewinder Precision Pro 2, then the throttle, then the CombatStick, which has a decent cannon thumb button instead of a godless communist 4-way hatswitch...). If you lack the coin, and you can't find a USB Microsoft stick, you can 'settle' for a Saitek, I guess...

cheers

horseback

sparrow420
09-29-2005, 12:26 PM
A good joystick... = a good question...

My suggestion: avoid anything that uses potmeters. A potmeter is a variable resistor that is THE biggest cause of problems http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif . Every such joystick will sooner or later (and mostly sooner) behave erratically at the most inconvenient moments: like when you are closing on a bogey and try to pull just that little bit of more lead, or when you try to relax just a little bit on the pitch, the potmeter can generate a nasty spike that ruins your position. Just remember... even the guys who buy the Cougar are not satisfied (well, at least some of them), since they send their stick to a modder who replaces the potmeters by magnetic devices (Hall effect sensors).

The next question is: which joysticks do not use potmeters...? This is a bit more difficult to answer. Most sticks do use them, but there are a few exceptions that I know of:
- Logitech Wingman Interceptor
It's old (quite!) difficult to get to work under WXP, but I managed after some tweaking.
- Microsoft Sidewinder precision pro 2
If I am not mistaken, also this stick does not use potmeters, and I guess this is the reason why its users buy even 'pre-owned' ones.
- Other suggestions (especially of newer sticks)?

Or: you can start modding your old joystick yourself. After my Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D started behaving badly, I bought a new one: a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (not smart, I know...) and after a couple of months it showed similar problems. Therefore I took my old joystick apart, removed the pitch-potmeter and replaced it by a LED, Light Dependent Resistor (plus small circuit) and a couple of polarizers. Result: joystick performs now better then ever! But, I realize that this is not something everone can do.

Also: pay attention to the springs that center the stick. If the springs are too strong, it is great if you want to change EITHER roll OR pitch, but subtle movements in other directions cannot be controlled well enough.

So, in a nutshell: it is fairly easy to design a good joystick (avoid potmeters, use smarter centering method). But unfortunately most vendors do not design and build a flight sim joystick that is free of the errors that I mentioned above.


Good luck in finding a good one... And if you find a (good) potless stick: let us know! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Cheers,


Sparrow

PS: Note that I didn't mention the number of axes or buttons. This is on purpose: with a perfect stick behaviour I don't mind using the keyboard for all other functions apart from perhaps a fire button.
PS: For rudder pedals the same thing applies: avoid potmeters. No doubt that is one of the major reasons why Simped's are regarded as top notch (though at a price...)

AussieGreen
09-30-2005, 05:30 AM
Many thanks for the feed back guys i am getting wiser by the day, i will let you all know how i go Ebay seems to be a very good source of old sticks and new suprisingly at good prices.
will keep you posted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

sparrow420
09-30-2005, 10:06 AM
Before I forget: one word of caution

IF you intend to go after an older joystick, make sure that it is compatible with your operating system.

For example: I got an old Wingman Interceptor to work (after some experimenting) on a WXP system. But I have found postings that it was not compatible to XP Professional... Perhaps it is good to look on Google for topics like "my_new_joystick connection problems".

Happy hunting!

Sparrow

BenvZijl
09-30-2005, 12:39 PM
i use a CH products hotas set and i must say, it's better than the X52 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tooo be honest i cant fly without it anymore

FoolTrottel
09-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Good Joystick? Not as troublesome?
This one: Guillemot Force Feedback.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/GuillemotFFB.jpg
Though it's difficult to get yer hands on, it's rare ...

+ FFB
+ Symmetrical (left/right handed)
+ 12 buttons, 2 sliders ...

- it's sooo Heavy!! (could be a + too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif )
- no new drivers available
- it's got pots ...

Concluding: This just to show yet another option, if you can find one, go for it, and if you truly want a good thing ... go for CH!

Have Fun!

fireman519
09-30-2005, 10:50 PM
I use a Saitek ST 290 Pro. You can get it for $20 at Wally World, and it works great. No complaints here.

LEXX_Luthor
10-04-2005, 09:33 PM
* thumps *

I went looking for this thread title, so searched (not forum search) for the word JOYSTICK ... no luck for 4 pages. Tried GenDis and no luck. Finally tried "A GOOD" and found it... a good JOY SICK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

JunkoIfurita
10-04-2005, 09:44 PM
AussieGreen czech it out (to nick a phrase from Lexx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Aussie EBay at the moment has a CH Fighterstick USB and CH USB Throttle going for $100 and $80 respectively (at the moment).

I'd bid myself, but I just picked up a MSFFB2 so I'm happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now if there were some USB CH pedals going...


----

zlin
10-05-2005, 06:32 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

This is the best and most realistic World War 2 flight sim joystick. Super large stick, largest stick buttons ever made -- only 3 super buttons at top of stick, largest throttle made for any joystick, most massive base made for any joystick, largest throw distance side to side and foward-back (6 inches - measure others in CompUSA), comes with NO software just plug in USB port and fly, never breaks (nothing to break), smooth as glass -- I think partially because its so large, controlling it is not "iffy," and the most comfortable to hold stick ever made -- I tried my hand with ALL The Others at CompUSA. Graphite is Perfect if you have large hands, but if you have small hands, it then feels like an even larger real WW2 control stick.



Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Finally got my Saitek Cyborg Graphite 2000 yesterday and all I can say is WOW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
This joystick is the next best thing happen to me in long time flying FB+AEP+PF.
LEXX_Luthor I owe you a lot. I really don't know how I missed this one. All 8-way hat switch view is working like a charm and is very comfortable to the hand with fantastic precision.
Setup took me about 5 minutes (no need for software, just plug in http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif )
I have nothing else to say ,you described everything exactly .
Price $14.95 plus shipping http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif yea baby anytime. Hasta la vista Logitech.
Thanks again LEXX http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-05-2005, 02:02 PM
Awsum http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

Throttle is amazing isn't it?

Funny thing, its so superior to the far more expensive Saitek "evo" sticks because of its raw size, mass, comfort, smoothness, and stick move distance compared to the "evos." It lacks all the buttons at the bottom of the base, but base buttons offer no benefit over keyboard keys.

Now stick some of those half sphere clear plastic bumper pads on each of the three buttons. You can get the pads at office supply stores or small art/craft/drafting supply stores. I stick one of these pads on each of my mouse buttons too. The finger seems to naturally glide to the top of each pad, either on mouse or stick buttons.

lairdperkins
10-05-2005, 04:39 PM
I use a CH Flightstick Pro USB, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals.

I've tried a lot of sticks over the years (High end Thrustmaster stuff, MS Force Feedback stick etc). I've never found anything with the precision over the whole throw range that the Flightstick Pro has. Its also one of the most comfortable sticks around for both right and left handed folks.

One of the nicest features of the USB set is the ability to merge all three devices into a single Joystick driver. I can't overstate how useful this is for playing older games that only support one or two devices.

I'm also in love with the extra throttle wheel on the Flightstick. I map it to elevator trim in PF. I've found dynamically trimming the AC really helps with the "bounce" problems people complain about when they're on guns.

AussieGreen
10-07-2005, 05:02 PM
JunkoIfurita thanks for the heads up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
am onto it Saitek X52 hard to get but can be done through Hardly Normal (Harvey Norman stores) in Oz Cost Round $200au. Ebay has a few coming out of Germany and Uk however no cost saving when shipping included. Cyborg Graphites are on Ebay mainly out of USA. I have not Met the Cyborg Graphite CH or X52 face to face yet.
seems that there are 3 good choices so far the Cyborg the Ch and the X52. Thanks for all your help and imput guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sokol__1
10-09-2005, 03:01 AM
ZLIN,

Go to H.O.T.A.S, buy another Cyborg Graffiti and make this easy mod:

http://img143.exs.cx/img143/3046/cimg03886jo.jpg
http://www.sturmovik.de/board/index.php?topic=9146.0

Bonus: the original throtle in the first Graffiti make a good elevator trim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SP!

Sokol1 . Jambock__21

BSR_RuGGBuTT
10-09-2005, 11:04 AM
I've had MS joysticks (reg and FF) X45, Cougar and CH. My CH HOTAS is the only one that I use. The Cougar is made of metal, but the guts of it are poor quality. The gimbal is pot metal that's soft and it gets flats on it quite easily. Also, you can fry the PCB board by dragging your feet across the carpet and not grounding yourself first. Just because it's metal doesn't mean it will hold up.

CH has a killer warranty and superior customer service. If you need any questions answered, you can head over to CH Hangar (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?act=idx) and ask away. Not only will someone help you, but many of the reps from CH constantly post there. I've never seen as good customer service from any of the other joystick manufacturers.

zlin
10-09-2005, 11:13 AM
Hello Sokol__1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

What in the world you have done to the Cyborg http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
Yeah ,seriously not bad idea even if there is a little bit of handyman needed.
Considering how cheap (new 14.95 + shipping, 2 years warranty period from date of purchase) my Saitek Cyborg Graphite 2000 was, I can get like 2 more just for experiment and it can be quite nice setup for flying .
Thanks for idea and picture http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Peacemaker_PL
11-09-2005, 08:39 AM
Coguar ? come on... without modyfications is not so good, and there is no pedals...

But it is only my opinion.

I was using Sx-45, but since i buy CH Product HOTAS (fighterstick, pro throttle, pro pedals) there is no compromise in flying.

greetings,

Peacemaker.

p.s.

X-52 is also nice HOTAS, but rudder in joystick is not good idea.

p.s.2

long time ago i was owner of Logitech FF 3D - what a piece of unprecise ****!

Grue_
11-09-2005, 10:54 AM
http://www.simhq.com/_contests/images/CH2.jpg http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

The guys at CH Hangar can help you with any programming requests. My map makes a nice cup of tea when I push the big red button.



Not really.

TheGozr
11-09-2005, 11:07 AM
joystics are CH's products and Coogar's and some above that but the rest as SAitek are toys IMO.

Sry for the wake up call. But It's all about how much $$ do you love IL2.
or are some are doing is to mod them Rebuild them make them stronger, faster, better, krinkkk krinnkkk!!!( music here ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

iron_guantlet
11-09-2005, 11:21 AM
i used a MSFF2 for five years and was still solid as a rock but then moved twice and lost the power cord too it and driver disk. so now i use the CH products fighter stick&fuel quad with pro pedals($$$) but love it. If CH would make the Fighter stck as force feed back it would be even better than the MSFF2.

Oceandar
11-09-2005, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by sparrow420:
Or: you can start modding your old joystick yourself. After my Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D started behaving badly, I bought a new one: a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (not smart, I know...) and after a couple of months it showed similar problems. Therefore I took my old joystick apart, removed the pitch-potmeter and replaced it by a LED, Light Dependent Resistor (plus small circuit) and a couple of polarizers. Result: joystick performs now better then ever! But, I realize that this is not something everone can do.

Interesting post Sparrow !! currently I use Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D and I must prepare myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , could you be more spesific and details (step by step if possible) as what kind of component that can be used to mod it??

Thanks in advance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

iron_guantlet
11-09-2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Grue_:
http://www.simhq.com/_contests/images/CH2.jpg http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

The guys at CH Hangar can help you with any programming requests. My map makes a nice cup of tea when I push the big red button.



Not really.

CH really needs to make the Fighter stick in a force feed back model as a option..then this would be the perfect stick

Crash_Moses
11-09-2005, 03:05 PM
If you can find them I highly recommend the old Thrustmaster F-22 and TQS. Very heavy and the joystick uses 19# springs. I've had mine two years and there is still no play in the joystick (and it gets used a lot!)

The POTS are durable (never had a problem with mine) and the whole setup works very nicely with a set of CH PRO rudder pedals.

The only downside is you need an MS-DOS boot disk with the programming software to program the darn things. Not XP compatible.

However, if you can find a set of Bob Church's digital chips (or an F-22/TQS with them already installed) then you'll have it made. The chips pop right in and Bob's XP/2000 drivers take care of the rest. I absolutely love 'em.

VF17-Twisted
11-09-2005, 09:49 PM
Microsoft FFB2. Durable and still plenty good ones out there on ebay.
I've picked up 2nd gen's for under $80 each. All with install disks.

Bearcat99
11-09-2005, 11:34 PM
MSFFB2/X-45/CH Pedals combo here... works for me. The best of both worlds... HOTAS,FFB,Pedals..

For the $190 you would spend on a CH Fighter stick and Throttle (http://www.provantage.com/buy-110CHPU-ch-shopping.htm) (Granted they are indeed EXELLENY products) You could get a MSFFB2 (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&fstype=1&from=R10&satitle=Microsoft+Force+Feedback+2&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1)($50) and a Saitek X-45 (http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/recprod.html)($39) AND a set of CH Rudder Pedals ($88.74 at the same site as above for the stick and throttle). and you would still have enough left over to put towards your TIR. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The X-45 stick you could use as a button bay... the throttle as a throttle.... and the MS stick could be your main flying stick. Since you wouldnt be using the X-45 stick as your main flight stick it would last a heck of a lot longer.. and the MSFFB2 is like a tank as far as durability goes. I still have my original one from 2001.. I gave it to my 8 year old son to fly IL2 & Crimson Skies with.

L33T-Zoolander
11-09-2005, 11:39 PM
I'm using an X-52 set-up. It's nice for gadgets, twinkly lights and tweaky buttons, but for me the ergonomics smoke the schwantz and the whole thing is worse than TV wrestling.

On the other hand, one of my "ham fisted snaps off puny joysticks at the base" teammates loves his X-52. I figure X-52s are a match made in heaven for folks that really like to muscle their planes around and enjoy wielding a joystick that is almost as tall as a monitor.
"Yhaahhrrr! Eat my hot lead, lest I leap out of my flying beast and skewer your gut with the horns of my helm!!!"

I'm a little more reserved in the heat of battle. In fact I eschew it, as I prefer to damage targets safely and unnoticed, while my mates engage in the heat of battle. It's almost Zen when you unload a thousand rounds of Browning 50s into the oblivious soul that zooms after a 190. Unfortunately gigantic plastic contraptions with disco lights obviate Zen, at it's base level.

So my personal favorite sticks are Logitechs. They're tactile, ergonomic and accurate.

I plan to ****** my X-52 stick for a Logitech Force 3D Pro. When a FF stick is unpowered, its less like TV wrestling. It's more like female combatants engaging in battle within a ring of Jello.
Hey, some guys like watching other guys fight, some guys dig other things.

Combined with my X-52 throttle and Hofmann Simpeds, I'll be the terror of the skies.
In my mind, not yours.

Good Hunting,
Zoo

WOLFMondo
11-10-2005, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by AussieGreen:
Hi guys I'd Like your Input please.
I use a Logitech extreme3D pro and have problems with the rudder not returning to centre
i have replaced my old 3d with a new one after playing with the dead zones and smooting etc. what do you guys use that is not as troublesome?

CH Fighter stick and CH pro Pedals. Probably the best combination of controls and built to last.

PERSEUS1953
11-10-2005, 05:17 PM
HOTAS COUGAR FOR REAL FEEL, ALL REST ARE
"MICKEY MOUSE". MOUNT IT ON A "SIMSIT" SEAT OVERLAY.

Oceandar
11-11-2005, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by PERSEUS1953:
HOTAS COUGAR FOR REAL FEEL, ALL REST ARE
"MICKEY MOUSE". MOUNT IT ON A "SIMSIT" SEAT OVERLAY.
Bwahh.....you rich people !!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Well I think I`m gonna buy X-45 to replace my Logitech (its still working great tho), too bad no one here in my country sell any single saitek product.
CH and Cougar ?? hmm...wait till I win a lotery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

P.S yeah I know !! I`ve made no point http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kuna15
11-11-2005, 02:29 PM
I have Cyborg EVO (I'm using it now) and X45 on shelf collecting dust. I wont be buying stuff from Saitek any more. Only one reason; I had terrible rudder controll experience with them.

I don't use X45 because EVO has better rudder control although 402 made rudder control on twisty stick more difficult.

I had Genius F-31 joystick (I've bought that one for around 26 euros). I stopped using it only because it had gameport connector so I was unable to connect it to my new MBO (it donesn't have gameport connector only bunch of USB's). After that I bought X45 and was unsatisfied with it (rudder) and soon after Cyborg EVO...

Perhaps it is weird for me to say this but that F-31 stick really worked better than X45 and Cyborg EVO for me although it is ~2x cheaper than EVO and ~4x than X45. It has stable rudder control.

If I had opportunity I would buy CH joystick right away and their pedals too, so far I was unable to find anyone with CH that has something negative to say about that gaming hardware.

DarkStar68
11-11-2005, 02:38 PM
I will offer up my Cougar with dust covers - It's just too much stick for me. I used it only a couple of times - Original everything including Amazon invoice. Wife is pissed too. Start bidding...

vanjast
11-11-2005, 03:36 PM
DarkStar68 >> http://www.exitchicago.com/gallery/index.php

You bored with life old boy ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Beirut
11-12-2005, 04:03 AM
I'm still using my MS FFB2 and loving it. Only problem is I can't make the stick "heavy" enough in IL2. In FS2004, the bloody thing nearly rips my arms off. Yeah!

Just bought a Saitek Cyborg Evo to use as a throttle HOTAS for the left hand. Works great! Very comfortable, enough switches so you never have to move your hand off the stick, and it only cost $45Cdn.

Was very close to buying an X52, but then no FFB. So I got the Cyborg Evo to make my HOTAS, and F.E.A.R., and ordered a strip of 512 RAM, and still had money left over for what the X52 would have cost me alone.

The X52 might be great, but there are much cheaper options for a HOTAS out there.

polak5
11-12-2005, 12:51 PM
I got a saitek evo.. I replaced my logitech wingman with it.
I must say it has lasted me longer.. only gripes is that i like were the logitech has the trottle control better.

DarkStar68
11-12-2005, 01:43 PM
Any feedback from X52 oweners? I'm going out later and wonder if it's worth picking up...

Thanks

polak5
11-12-2005, 01:57 PM
here is a review.. I havent played with this joystick. But when i went to the store and put grabed it, and it didint feel right. it has a weird button on it were u place ur hand. I also didint like the Star Trek look to it, not that my saitek evo's looks are something to get crazy about.... I also didint dig that it dosent have ForceFB, but i dont know if thats an issue with u. It does have lots of buttons dough wich is a plus.
Go to the store, they should have some displays think about how confortable it is to u..
heres a review. http://www.gamerz-edge.com/pc/reviews/saitekx52.html

DarkStar68
11-12-2005, 02:08 PM
not that my saitek evo's looks are something to get crazy

Thanks for the link polak5 - I may not like it because I have big hands - what's the best FFB?

polak5
11-12-2005, 04:33 PM
well i woulnt say that i have small hands,nor big, I guess i have normal hands and the x52 felt kinda small for me. Becouse u slide ur hand in soo to speak and for me it felt restricted. U get lots of buttons at the price of more mula dough$$$.
I havent had many joysticks.. just a Logitech wingman extreme pro and a saitek evo force.
I liked the look of the wingman and the buttons placements were not bad, espcially the trottle control (on the side). Only down side is that that joystick didint last me long like 8 months of hard use, then it started to get all noodelie. i tried to donate it to my friend, but that stick is dead as roadkill on I-10.

My second is the evo force, so far soo good u might like the feel of it cuz u can customize it soo to speak it has knobs on it to were u can lower, raise, slide side to side the buttons, and change the placement of the hand rest. U can switch for left handed use.. if that applies. Only gripe is the trottle placement(in the middle). ive used it for about 9 months its still in good shape. my next joystick will be a evo force, unless someone comes up with something new that i like.

Good luck and keep an open mind when u are browsing around.


Polak

iron_guantlet
11-12-2005, 10:54 PM
I have a MS FF2 i will sell cheap.only $20 U.S.
it don't have the driver disk or power cord,but the stick is in really good condition. if you wan't it E-mail me
ayf43@YAHOO.COM

Schithawk
11-13-2005, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
@ Lexx or anyone else...I have an X-45 now after graduating from a logtech myself but I find the feel of the stick and throw to be unsatisfactory....

Is there a way to keep my X-45 and add another stick like the Cyborg? I have trim and flap controls at my finger tips so I don't want to lose them...Money is not a restrainer for me so I am considering a CH or Couger but I've heard that the rudder pedals aren't all they cracked up to be and I don't want to waste money either....for 20 bucks, I'd be willing to try the cyborg! absolutelyi have a sietek cyborg , asietek evo forcefeedback and a sietek racing wheel all hooked up on my sys game controller id.1, id.2 , id.3. just proggram them in youre controls section of fb. i use a stick in each hand gl